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osophy_junkie
03-22-2014, 11:37 PM
So I got a little bit of money for my birthday, and I'd like to get a book or two. Can anyone recommend some good books. I am intermediate to advanced, so no books on how to read PP's are needed.

Tom
03-22-2014, 11:56 PM
Happy Birthday!

Clocker
03-23-2014, 12:30 AM
So I got a little bit of money for my birthday, and I'd like to get a book or two. Can anyone recommend some good books. I am intermediate to advanced, so no books on how to read PP's are needed.

Not enough info to make any recommendations. What have you read recently, and what did you like or find missing in those books?

DJofSD
03-23-2014, 12:53 AM
Anything by Malcolm Gladwell but probably the best for handicapping "Blink."

CincyHorseplayer
03-23-2014, 01:26 AM
Tailgaiting off what Clocker said,what are you into,where is your head at and what do you want to know?Definitely got the right place!

thaskalos
03-23-2014, 03:35 AM
So I got a little bit of money for my birthday, and I'd like to get a book or two. Can anyone recommend some good books. I am intermediate to advanced, so no books on how to read PP's are needed.
If you are indeed an advanced player...then you don't need any books. The books are for the lesser players...who still need someone to school them on the fundamentals. Take your birthday money...and start BETTING with it. If you are as "advanced" as you say you are...then actual betting should not be that scary a step for you to take. And even if you lose...you will learn more in the act of losing than you can POSSIBLY learn from reading a book. The books don't teach you the stuff that really matter.

Advanced players don't need more "reading". They need more "playing".

Dark Horse
03-23-2014, 05:28 AM
Barry Meadows 'Money Secrets at the Racetrack' - As dry as it gets, but definitely worth studying.

And I always had a soft spot for Carroll's 'Handicapping Speed'. Not so much because of what's in it, which is good info, but because he shows an independent and scientific way of thinking. Outside of the box, and truly in-depth research of one feature. That attitude, if contagious, is the most useful ingredient, because without it the handicapper wields but a dull sword. And unlike the first book, it's a pleasant read.

Can't leave out Brohamer's Modern Pace Handicapping. Also indepth.

The majority of books on horse racing have kind of a superficial feel. They often touch upon a topic, per chapter, but stop well before it gets interesting. Those are the bad examples, that can fool players into thinking it is that simple. The three I mentioned do not take that easy approach.

Grits
03-23-2014, 12:51 PM
If you are indeed an advanced player...then you don't need any books. The books are for the lesser players...who still need someone to school them on the fundamentals. Take your birthday money...and start BETTING with it. If you are as "advanced" as you say you are...then actual betting should not be that scary a step for you to take. And even if you lose...you will learn more in the act of losing than you can POSSIBLY learn from reading a book. The books don't teach you the stuff that really matter.

Advanced players don't need more "reading". They need more "playing".

Thask, I'm sorry but when one has asked, within their last five posts, and been patiently helped by others with answers to..

What is an overlay?
Why are there more calls than fractional times?

This person is, in no way, intermediate or advanced in their handicapping knowledge. This simply is contradictory, or delusional. I'm not sure which.:lol:

osophy_junkie
03-23-2014, 01:40 PM
Recently I've read 'Extreme Pace Handicapping' and 'Precision'. I'd be most interested in learning more about how to apply Sartin methodologies to game.

Fingal
03-23-2014, 03:28 PM
If you're interested in Sartin principles- if you haven't already I'd also sign up at the Sartin forum, www.paceandcap.com . By registering you get access to the Library where you can read to your heart's content books, follow ups & watch / listen to audio & video seminars, ask questions, etc.

CincyHorseplayer
03-24-2014, 12:45 AM
If you are indeed an advanced player...then you don't need any books. The books are for the lesser players...who still need someone to school them on the fundamentals. Take your birthday money...and start BETTING with it. If you are as "advanced" as you say you are...then actual betting should not be that scary a step for you to take. And even if you lose...you will learn more in the act of losing than you can POSSIBLY learn from reading a book. The books don't teach you the stuff that really matter.

Advanced players don't need more "reading". They need more "playing".

How would you know?You're too busy playing poker to talk about horseplayer dreams because it's not your dream anymore.Don't preach about shit you're walking away from.

CincyHorseplayer
03-24-2014, 12:48 AM
So I got a little bit of money for my birthday, and I'd like to get a book or two. Can anyone recommend some good books. I am intermediate to advanced, so no books on how to read PP's are needed.

2 books.

The late Cary Fotias is completely an awesome read.Book called "Blinkers Off".

Mike Helm-Exploring Pedigree.

The world of pedigree opens up more avenues than just bets but it's a door well worth opening.

thaskalos
03-24-2014, 02:48 AM
How would you know?You're too busy playing poker to talk about horseplayer dreams because it's not your dream anymore.Don't preach about shit you're walking away from.
My friend...some players have too much gamble in them, and they cannot be confined to just one game.

But how could YOU be expected to know that? :)

CincyHorseplayer
03-24-2014, 02:59 AM
My friend...some players have too much gamble in them, and they cannot be confined to one game.

But how could YOU be expected to know that? :)

Don't talk bad about one bitch when you are with another pimp.

You have no gamble in this game.Your lament of it is one of a loser.Talk about a read.I've seen all types on the streets growing up.I see right through you.You are paper mache boy!

You bet more than me.You think that buys you validation.

raybo
03-24-2014, 03:14 AM
Recently I've read 'Extreme Pace Handicapping' and 'Precision'. I'd be most interested in learning more about how to apply Sartin methodologies to game.

Sounds like you're leaning towards pace handicapping, and if so, Giles' book is a great place to start. Your mention of Sartin infers that you aren't particularly interested in pace figures or speed figures, which can also be good, since so many use them basically in the same ways, thus lowering the ultimate value of those figs. And no, I'm not saying that figures, if they are good ones, cannot be used successfully, because they can. It's just that one of the keys to making profit in this game is in approaching things from a different, more unique position.

I suggest getting a good basic understanding of velocities, ala Sartin's original thought processes and calculations. His work can be found many places on the internet, at no cost.

With a good understanding of Giles' and Sartin's work, you can take off on your own and develop your own methods. Once you have your own, unique handicapping method, the wagering side becomes much easier, IMO.

CincyHorseplayer
03-24-2014, 03:15 AM
Speaking of books.Why is your manuscript not in my mail?I sent you stuff from my personal account and at my expense,that you willfully judge me because of.Why aren't you sending me your stuff?Put that copy in the mail bro.

thaskalos
03-24-2014, 04:01 AM
Speaking of books.Why is your manuscript not in my mail?I sent you stuff from my personal account and at my expense,that you willfully judge me because of.Why aren't you sending me your stuff?Put that copy in the mail bro.

Did I ever ask you to send me anything? You wanted to send me something...and you sent it. If you wanted my manuscript...all you had to do was ask. But, by your initial reply to me in this thread...it seems that your opinion of me has changed. I am a poker player now, according to you, so my horse racing opinions should no longer be respected. In that case, why are you asking for my manuscript...and why would I ever consider sending it to you?

I thought you were joking with your first reply here...that's why I responded to you with a smiley face. And now you mean to tell me that you are serious?

You attack me without provocation in this thread, and then you say that I "judge you" because of the stuff that you sent me? Didn't I already tell you that I was very impressed with the stuff that you sent me?

I'll tell you what...send me your address by PM, so I can send your notebook back to you. And don't worry...I'll sent you a check to cover your original shipping expenses.

CincyHorseplayer
03-24-2014, 04:43 AM
Did I ever ask you to send me anything? You wanted to send me something...and you sent it. If you wanted my manuscript...all you had to do was ask. But, by your initial reply to me in this thread...it seems that your opinion of me has changed. I am a poker player now, according to you, so my horse racing opinions should no longer be respected. In that case, why are you asking for my manuscript...and why would I ever consider sending it to you?

I thought you were joking with your first reply here...that's why I responded to you with a smiley face. And now you mean to tell me that you are serious?

You attack me without provocation in this thread, and then you say that I "judge you" because of the stuff that you sent me? Didn't I already tell you that I was very impressed with the stuff that you sent me?

I'll tell you what...send me your address by PM, so I can send your notebook back to you. And don't worry...I'll sent you a check to cover your original shipping expenses.

No.We won't do that.All I meant at the end Is I share,you share.I sent it to a friend and I expect the same back.

I notice your disdain for this game and love of poker so don't act surprised.

And likewise your bets are bigger than my $40 bets times 10 so we should suck your c***ck?F that.

I noticed you were starting to piss on the place that has loved ya.So what?

I didn't attack you without provocation.You suggested the author read nothing when he was asking for advice.

This guy can learn plenty from some great books.

I'm glad I irritated you enough to talk to me.**** yeah send me a copy.Like I said earlier I thought it was a done deal.My stuff is yours and I'll kill you if it isn't the reverse!

Anyway my bottomline for this thread is don't discourage the guy that's asking for advice.I suggested Fotias!

limit2
03-24-2014, 09:10 AM
I would say apply what you have already learned. Test that body of knowledge and discover major weaknesses and start the process to eradicate them. Books are available to help.

HUSKER55
03-24-2014, 10:06 AM
Just a thought,

What ever you do and however you do it....understand your formulas and know exactly what the out put is.

DeltaLover
03-24-2014, 11:35 AM
I completely agree with Thask. Beyond basics there are very few things to be
learned by reading the horse handicapping literature.

Handicapping and racing specific knowledge is extremely overestimated. People
like to believe that there is some silver bullet figure or methodology that can
lead to easy and mechanical profits, turning the betting windows to their
personal ATM.

I see threads like this one for example
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111416 with a raise of my
eyebrow and find it remarkable to see that there are still people who think that
they can beat the game applying such a simplistic and mechanical way!

Nothing can be further from the reality.

The betting public is well aware of all the basic and influential handicapping
angles which are extremely accurately reflected in the pools, shifting the
significance of successful tactics to betting execution, contrarian thinking and
above anything else proper physiological preparation.

To answer the question of the OP, assuming he knows the basics of the game, he
needs to start frequent visits to the betting windows and learn from his own
mistakes, knowing that the learning curve might be steep and expensive... There
simply is no other way!

Having said that, by no means I do not want to imply that hard off the track
work is needed but the fact that this work has to be personal and original and
cannot be found in any of the existing books. As part of this work, you can
start building your own data base by subscribing to a data provider, learn how
to query the data, try different betting strategies, keep notes and records and
more than anything else think hard and constantly about the game.

Handicapping books can never take you beyond the level of the novice and it is
impossible to become a good bettor unless you bet with real money, in the same
way that you can never learn how to swim unless you are thrown in the sea...

raybo
03-24-2014, 12:12 PM
Delta, I don't think anyone in this thread mentioned a "silver bullet or methodology", or turning the betting windows into their personal ATM. The OP asked about reading material regarding the handicapping side of racing, and never mentioned a silver bullet approach. He says he is an intermediate to advanced player, so one must assume that he already knows such things do not exist, and if he doesn't know that then he is not an intermediate player, much less an advanced player.

Nobody in this thread proposed that there is anything in writing out there that, in itself, will make you profitable, but there are tools and approaches, in writing, out their about the handicapping side of the equation, that can be extremely valuable when used as basic foundations for a more unique (contrarian), personally tailored, method.

To suggest that the OP ignore the body of knowledge that exists and simply start betting money, is akin to saying that handicapping doesn't matter. We know you and Thaskalos are buddies of like mind, but I doubt seriously that either of you do not do some sort of handicapping before betting your hard earned dollars, which would simply be throwing that money in the trash. Yes, the wagering side is important, but it is not all there is to the problem. Why would any investor start making bad investments in order to learn? That makes absolutely no sense at all. One needs to have a solid knowledge base before risking real money, in any investment vehicle.

PaceAdvantage
03-24-2014, 12:47 PM
How would you know?You're too busy playing poker to talk about horseplayer dreams because it's not your dream anymore.Don't preach about shit you're walking away from.Who the hell are you to be telling someone else what to post about on here?

PaceAdvantage
03-24-2014, 12:49 PM
Don't talk bad about one bitch when you are with another pimp.

You have no gamble in this game.Your lament of it is one of a loser.Talk about a read.I've seen all types on the streets growing up.I see right through you.You are paper mache boy!

You bet more than me.You think that buys you validation.
i've lost my patience with you. You've been warned multiple times on here, and now I've had enough...and I know via PM that this only got worse...

PaceAdvantage
03-24-2014, 12:51 PM
No.We won't do that.All I meant at the end Is I share,you share.I sent it to a friend and I expect the same back.

I notice your disdain for this game and love of poker so don't act surprised.

And likewise your bets are bigger than my $40 bets times 10 so we should suck your c***ck?F that.

I noticed you were starting to piss on the place that has loved ya.So what?

I didn't attack you without provocation.You suggested the author read nothing when he was asking for advice.

This guy can learn plenty from some great books.

I'm glad I irritated you enough to talk to me.**** yeah send me a copy.Like I said earlier I thought it was a done deal.My stuff is yours and I'll kill you if it isn't the reverse!

Anyway my bottomline for this thread is don't discourage the guy that's asking for advice.I suggested Fotias!I love how others just ignored your garbage and posted around it...bravo to them

As for you, you are done here.

thaskalos
03-24-2014, 02:32 PM
Delta, I don't think anyone in this thread mentioned a "silver bullet or methodology", or turning the betting windows into their personal ATM. The OP asked about reading material regarding the handicapping side of racing, and never mentioned a silver bullet approach. He says he is an intermediate to advanced player, so one must assume that he already knows such things do not exist, and if he doesn't know that then he is not an intermediate player, much less an advanced player.

Nobody in this thread proposed that there is anything in writing out there that, in itself, will make you profitable, but there are tools and approaches, in writing, out their about the handicapping side of the equation, that can be extremely valuable when used as basic foundations for a more unique (contrarian), personally tailored, method.

To suggest that the OP ignore the body of knowledge that exists and simply start betting money, is akin to saying that handicapping doesn't matter. We know you and Thaskalos are buddies of like mind, but I doubt seriously that either of you do not do some sort of handicapping before betting your hard earned dollars, which would simply be throwing that money in the trash. Yes, the wagering side is important, but it is not all there is to the problem. Why would any investor start making bad investments in order to learn? That makes absolutely no sense at all. One needs to have a solid knowledge base before risking real money, in any investment vehicle.

I've recommended plenty of books when people ask similar questions on this board...so I do not downplay the importance of a "solid knowledge base" before one starts betting money in this game. However...most of the people who ask these types of questions are beginning players who are looking for direction...and the original poster here indicated that he was pretty far up the ladder, as far as general handicapping knowledge was concerned. How could a player call himself "intermediate to advanced"...if he doesn't already possess a solid knowledge base? Only when Grits pointed it out to me did I realize that the original poster might have exaggerated his own handicapping knowledge.

I admit that I am not a big proponent of "paper-betting". It takes brutal honesty with oneself to make paper-betting work...and I find that most horseplayers lack this sort of honesty. I also doubt that paper-betting can adequately prepare a player for what he will encounter in real play. It is very easy to be disciplined and creative when you are paper-betting from your kitchen table...but it becomes very difficult to be the same when you are actually playing the game. That's why I recommend that "intermediate to advanced players" put the books away, and expose themselves to the REAL game...so they could take their knowledge to the next level. Books are nice, and I've read almost all the handicapping books myself...but that's not where I learned my most important lessons.

To paraphrase, so my point is not lost:

To beginners I recommend books...but to "intermediate to advanced" players I recommend REAL hands-on playing experience. I don't suggest that they bet above their means, mind you...but they must expose themselves to the "real game" nonetheless. You cannot expect to learn how to swim, if you are reluctant to get wet.

This is strictly MY opinion, of course...and other opinions may vary. Differences of opinion are what make debating interesting...and I always enjoy a good debate.

PhantomOnTour
03-24-2014, 02:35 PM
Beginners need books
Advanced players need data

thaskalos
03-24-2014, 02:40 PM
Beginners need books
Advanced players need data
Many players have "data"...but the winners are still few and far between.

Or is it that the winners have "BETTER data"?

PhantomOnTour
03-24-2014, 02:47 PM
Many players have "data"...but the winners are still few and far between.

Or is it that the winners have "BETTER data"?
"We need information, information, information"
-Iron Maiden

What I meant is that someone who's been playing as long as I have doesn't need a "How To" book.
I am sure some folks are privy to data that very few people have, so I guess in that sense it is better data.

And I agree with your advice to the OP that he needs experience, not books.
Lose and learn...no better education out there.

Robert Fischer
03-24-2014, 05:01 PM
A book can often give rise to creative ideas beyond the scope of the book itself.

I don't know what to recommend specifically.

I've never read the Beyer books, but they seem to be fairly inspirational.

Right now I'm reading "Antifragile" by Taleb.

raybo
03-24-2014, 05:03 PM
IMO, it's obvious that the OP's definition of "intermediate to advanced" is far different than that of some here. But, it is not too unusual that a player who has been in the game, for many years, may seek more knowledge on aspects that he has not explored in the past (Giles/Sartin for instance). Just because someone has been in the game a long time, does not necessarily mean that they are "intermediate to advanced", nor does it mean that they are a novice, thus his stating that he does not need to know how to read the DRF, and maybe that is all he has ever done. That's not unusual, especially for older players who grew up with the DRF paper edition. And, maybe he did ok with what he has been doing all these years, but now thinks that he wants to explore other options. Being able to read and understand the DRF leaves a universe of other knowledge, tools, and methods out there.

Maybe the OP should have been more succinct, originally, in his statement that he is "intermediate to advanced". Only he can answer that, but if all he has ever used is the DRF, then asking about Giles and Sartin is not, in itself, a definition of being a beginning player. Rather he could simply be seeking a good source for some things he has not explored before.

raybo
03-24-2014, 05:20 PM
A book can often give rise to creative ideas beyond the scope of the book itself.

I don't know what to recommend specifically.

I've never read the Beyer books, but they seem to be fairly inspirational.

Right now I'm reading "Antifragile" by Taleb.

Exactly! While some may buy books looking for "the answer", others do so in order to further stimulate creative thought processes. As I stated many times in the past, it has only been "relatively" recently that I explored Sartin velocities and running styles versus pace pressure, etc.. That does not mean that I was not doing well before that, but the game continuously evolves and we have to also evolve or it will soon pass us by.

The guy might be someone who has done well using only traditional "old-school" methods, and now finds that they do not produce as well as they once did. That, IMO, would describe many players, considering the average age of the actively playing public. Some here, who pronounce that they are very good and successful players, readily admit that they do not use more technically advanced approaches or tools, for various reasons. Does that mean that if they ask a question or seek recommendations for material on specific approaches, that they are no longer good players, or even "lesser" players? I don't think so, or otherwise, there would be a whole lot more average or below players here, in the opinion of many.

I readily admit that I don't know all there is to analyzing race horses, but heaven help me if I ask a question about something I have not thoroughly explored before! All of a sudden I'd be labeled a beginner. :rolleyes: (as would many others here, I would suspect)

Ted Craven
03-24-2014, 07:46 PM
Osophy,

You are registered at PaceandCap.com and have access to the Sartin Library there. May I recommend the later Follow Ups by Dr Sartin (e.g. Issues 70+) for a more detailed understanding of pace and 'deceleration', and also Jim Bradshaw's Matchup work in the 'Hat Check Forum' there, along with the related Matchup PDF compendium (http://paceandcap.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89784&postcount=5).

The reference materials won't cost you money, but they will cost you both time and quite a bit of mental exertion. Stuff not found in the (now) mainstream Modern Pace Handicapping and Pace Makes the Race ...

best,

Ted

sligg
03-27-2014, 01:23 PM
I have about 30 books on horse racing for sale. IF you are looking for a specific title, let me know.

sligg@hotmail.com

Tom
03-28-2014, 10:46 PM
You know, if you want to try something new and different, go to Dave Schwartz's site - he has some neat products, and a really good one if his revised Percentages and Probabilities. I found a few things I have incorporated into my everyday play.

BettinBilly
04-03-2014, 08:42 PM
The greatest barrier to learning is what you THINK you ALREADY KNOW.

To this end, even though I've been playing for decades, I still go back and skim through older books. You can't absorb 100 percent of a book in one, two or even 10 reads. And you may think you know something, but on 2nd read you may glean some fractional knowledge.

It's funny when I look at my highlights in books from 20 years ago. I think, "That was important to me then?" :)

Cratos
04-07-2014, 01:20 PM
Anything by Malcolm Gladwell but probably the best for handicapping "Blink."

Outliers: The Story of Success is also a good read by Gladwell

WATT Wizard
04-18-2014, 10:58 AM
Problem is, many of the best books are now out of print. Some could make a comeback as e-Books, but most bookstores are a thing of the past. Too bad 'cause I love bookstores.

It's my experience that almost every book has at least one "gem." The best works have more than one. In another post, I used as an example, TEN STEPS TO WINNING by the late Danny Holmes. (Liberty Publishing Company, Inc., 1989, now out of print). There were a few gems in that one. IMO, his best was using "class" in a maiden race. I know that LPC would like to bring that one back as an e-Book.

Another good book was HOW WILL YOUR HORSE RUN TODAY? by the late Joe Finley (aka William L. Scott). That was published by Liberty Publishing in 1986 and updated in 1992. IMO, the gem in that book was the importance of a 5f workout. Another good one on their list was THE MATHEMATICS OF HORSE RACING by David B. Fogel. (1990). As I said, there were many out there.

BettinBilly
04-18-2014, 11:16 AM
Problem is, many of the best books are now out of print. Some could make a comeback as e-Books, but most bookstores are a thing of the past. Too bad 'cause I love bookstores.

It's my experience that almost every book has at least one "gem." The best works have more than one. In another post, I used as an example, TEN STEPS TO WINNING by the late Danny Holmes. (Liberty Publishing Company, Inc., 1989, now out of print). There were a few gems in that one. IMO, his best was using "class" in a maiden race. I know that LPC would like to bring that one back as an e-Book.

Another good book was HOW WILL YOUR HORSE RUN TODAY? by the late Joe Finley (aka William L. Scott). That was published by Liberty Publishing in 1986 and updated in 1992. IMO, the gem in that book was the importance of a 5f workout. Another good one on their list was THE MATHEMATICS OF HORSE RACING by David B. Fogel. (1990). As I said, there were many out there.

Lots of these available on Amazon, Wizard. The "Ten Steps to Winning" will set you back $40 used, however, the other two are very inexpensive in used edition. Under 5 bucks for "How will your horse run today" and under fifteen bucks for "The mathematics of horse racing".

If you don't like Amazon, you can also check Alibris that specializes in out of print books by linking thousands of mom and pop book shops nationwide. This usually yields a price jump of about 10 to 20 percent over Amazon, but it's another option.

Dark Horse
04-19-2014, 05:10 AM
The greatest barrier to learning is what you THINK you ALREADY KNOW.

To this end, even though I've been playing for decades, I still go back and skim through older books. You can't absorb 100 percent of a book in one, two or even 10 reads. And you may think you know something, but on 2nd read you may glean some fractional knowledge.


Very true. After mentioning Carroll's book here, I dusted it off and opened a random page. It wasn't so much what he wrote there, but what it triggered in my mind. A week or so later my program had a very useful added angle. It's often like that. New insight comes in the most unexpected ways. I can remember my mentor making an offhand remark about jockeys that absolutely rocked my world.

EMD4ME
04-19-2014, 09:02 AM
Very true. After mentioning Carroll's book here, I dusted it off and opened a random page. It wasn't so much what he wrote there, but what it triggered in my mind. A week or so later my program had a very useful added angle. It's often like that. New insight comes in the most unexpected ways. I can remember my mentor making an offhand remark about jockeys that absolutely rocked my world.

If you don't mind me asking, what was the remark about jockeys that absolutely rocked your world?

Thank you

Robert Goren
04-19-2014, 09:25 AM
If you don't mind me asking, what was the remark about jockeys that absolutely rocked your world?

Thank you Let me guess. "the little guys don't always do what they are suppose to" The person who told me this used a less flattering term than guys.

WATT Wizard
04-19-2014, 02:06 PM
Thanks for the ideas and sources Billy, but I wasn't looking for a book. I have a huge library that dates back years and I find little need for them today. I just wanted to mention that it's been my experience that most handicapping books have at least one gem or two. Reason enough to buy 'em? Depends on how old and experienced you are, I guess. I'm both. :)

Greyfox
04-19-2014, 02:10 PM
I just wanted to mention that it's been my experience that most handicapping books have at least one gem or two.

Exactly! :ThmbUp:
If you can get one or two gems out of a handicapping book that helps build your handicapping and betting ability, the author has done a great job.
The book then pays for itself - often many times over.

thaskalos
04-19-2014, 04:13 PM
Exactly! :ThmbUp:
If you can get one or two gems out of a handicapping book that helps build your handicapping and betting ability, the author has done a great job.
The book then pays for itself - often many times over.
I see this argument a lot...but I just can't agree with it.

IMO...you weigh the good points of a book against the bad...and THEN you decide if the book is worthwhile or not. If a book offers "one or two gems", but it also includes thirty ill-conceived or misleading ideas...then how "great" a job has the author done...and how is this book ever to pay for itself?

Are the beginning players, who are the mostly likely targets of these books, really expected to dig through a pile of questionable advice so they can find the one or two "gems"?

Greyfox
04-19-2014, 04:34 PM
I see this argument a lot...but I just can't agree with it.

IMO...you weigh the good points of a book against the bad...and THEN you decide if the book is worthwhile or not. If a book offers "one or two gems", but it also includes thirty ill-conceived or misleading ideas...then how "great" a job has the author done...and how is this book ever to pay for itself?

Are the beginning players, who are the mostly likely targets of these books, really expected to dig through a pile of questionable advice so they can find the one or two "gems"?

Perhaps I should have said that if after reading a book you are a better handicapper and bettor, then the book will pay for itself, sometimes many times over.
It may be a couple of nuggets that you were missing in your tool box that gives you the "aha moment" that improves your play.

BettinBilly
04-19-2014, 05:14 PM
Very true. After mentioning Carroll's book here, I dusted it off and opened a random page. It wasn't so much what he wrote there, but what it triggered in my mind. A week or so later my program had a very useful added angle. It's often like that. New insight comes in the most unexpected ways. I can remember my mentor making an offhand remark about jockeys that absolutely rocked my world.

I understand. As I mentioned earlier, I sometimes dust off older books and glance through them.

I would also like to know whatbthe Jockey remark was.

Thanks for the post.

Dark Horse
04-19-2014, 08:53 PM
If you don't mind me asking, what was the remark about jockeys that absolutely rocked your world?

Thank you

I'm sorry, but I'll have to take the silence-is-golden route on that one. In the unlikely case that I ever end up writing a handicapping book myself, the line by my mentor will be one of those italicized sections, right below the chapter's heading. Anything less than a chapter to explain and demonstrate it just wouldn't do it justice.

BettinBilly
04-19-2014, 10:18 PM
I'm sorry, but I'll have to take the silence-is-golden route on that one. In the unlikely case that I ever end up writing a handicapping book myself, the line by my mentor will be one of those italicized sections, right below the chapter's heading. Anything less than a chapter to explain and demonstrate it just wouldn't do it justice.

I shall keep an eye out for your book then, DH. Curiosity is on the rise.