"More Problems Than Just the Takeout"

[DeanT]

Barry Meadow:

Good article on the Paulick Report for players.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/meadow-horseplayers-face-even-more-ominous-issues-than-takeout/

And if you think that’s some crazy rule that typifies a place nicknamed Taxachusetts, you’re wrong. Several other states–Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, West Virginia, and Wisconsin—have the same ridiculous law. And Kansas, beginning with its 2014 tax returns, has joined this bandwagon of mathematical idiocy.

Why? Lawmakers figure that any anti-gambling rule is a free shot. They use words like “subsidies” and “loopholes” to describe the availability of deducting losses against wins. A corporation pays taxes on its net profits–revenues minus expenses. Not only can’thorseplayers deduct their expenses from any winnings (unless they’ve declared themselves as full-time professional gamblers), but in these states, they can’t deduct their matching losses, either.

Adding to our problems are the recent approvals of source market fees (taxes on ADW’s) by Pennsylvania and New York. As soon as Pennsylvania began charging a 10% source market fee last fall, rebate shops like MutuelsOnline, AmWager, and IdaBet closed the accounts of their Pennsylvania customers. Not that the state is any kind of gambling hotbed anyway, what with its tracks charging a takeout of more than 30% on some bets despite a slots subsidy that has totaled hundreds of millions of dollars.

[classhandicapper]

At this rate they are going to drive people back to neighborhood bookies where everything can be transacted in cash (at least until he doesn't want your action anymore). Plus, a good bookie joint might even comp you some drinks and cold cuts. ;)

Seriously, not being able to deduct expenses if it's just a hobby is fine. But not being able to deduct losses if you had a few tax tickets but still netted out to losses is so preposterous only a government could be this stupid.

[DeanT]

Class,

If I make $2000 on a Microsoft trade on Monday, but lose $2000 on MSFT Tuesday and had to pay taxes on $2000 in profit, the stock market would have no volume.

In horse racing it happens, and no one in the industry seems to care.

Handle goes up by billions if this stuff is ever figured out and made accountable. IMO

DT

[JustRalph]

good point Dean. It's amazing how the lawmakers see gambling :bang:

[Robert Goren]

good point Dean. It's amazing how the lawmakers see gambling :bang:No it is not if you have been paying attention. I have touting the fact that our state legislatures have a large number of people opposed to gambling for years. Nobody wanted to listen. Every state has an anti gambling faction trying to back door making gambling illegal. While they would like to make illegal outright, they are not above taxing it out of existence if that is what it takes.

[Stillriledup]

No it is not if you have been paying attention. I have touting the fact that our state legislatures have a large number of people opposed to gambling for years. Nobody wanted to listen. Every state has an anti gambling faction trying to back door making gambling illegal. While they would like to make illegal outright, they are not above taxing it out of existence if that is what it takes.

They are only opposed to gambling if there's nothing in it for them. The same legislators are loving the idea that there are billions of dollars of slots revenue floating around and they're getting their cut, but when they dont get their share, all of a sudden gambling becomes a bad, bad thing.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Illinois is especially bad in this particular area. It's the only state I've lived (out of 11) where taxes are paid on AGI off your Federal form, which is prior to declaring gambling losses.

Can't say as I miss that hell-hole.

[whodoyoulike]

So, what are our options and/or alternatives?

I've always felt that the individuals who propose these changes should be identified. So when election time comes around the voters impacted will remember who has been detrimental to their interests. Normally, we have no idea who is proposing these changes other than the "legislatures" voting are changing this or that. We just know that the individuals are being influenced by lobbyists for some other agenda. Which a lot times is unclear at the time of the proposals.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

[DeanT]

So, what are our options and/or alternatives?

I've always felt that the individuals who propose these changes should be identified. So when election time comes around the voters impacted will remember who has been detrimental to their interests. Normally, we have no idea who is proposing these changes other than the "legislatures" voting are changing this or that. We just know that the individuals are being influenced by lobbyists for some other agenda. Which a lot times is unclear at the time of the proposals.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Trying to organize some players to at least attend some of these meetings, but that's tough. Alternatively, the tracks have a vested interest in this, since it means more handle, so hoping this and other articles and letters/notes brings some awareness.

[Robert Goren]

So, what are our options and/or alternatives?

I've always felt that the individuals who propose these changes should be identified. So when election time comes around the voters impacted will remember who has been detrimental to their interests. Normally, we have no idea who is proposing these changes other than the "legislatures" voting are changing this or that. We just know that the individuals are being influenced by lobbyists for some other agenda. Which a lot times is unclear at the time of the proposals.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.I have never had any problem find out where any state senator stands on any gambling issue. Just ask, they will tell you. They are not trying to hide since they feel they have the vast majority of voters on their side. But you do have to ask, there is lobby keeping track of votes on gambling issues for the bettor.
One thing more, not very many people consider that being a customer of a race track or a casino is a "legit" way to make a living. That is prejudice that must overcome in order to get favorable legislation. Remember here you are preaching to the choir. It is not the posters here that you must convince. Making a "I only want what is fair" post here isn't going to change anything.

[whodoyoulike]

... Alternatively, the tracks have a vested interest in this, since it means more handle, so hoping this and other articles and letters/notes brings some awareness.

I'm pretty certain this was recommended by a lobbyist. Considering how many states have followed suit, how can we be certain that these lobbyist don't work for the race tracks? After all, they would benefit by encouraging on track attendance vs. ADW's where individuals can bet multiple low wager amounts where if they win it will be undetectable. These laws that force people to think of ways to break the law are wrong. I'm pissed off.

An alternative is for horse players in those states to STOP betting on horses. Forcing the tracks in those states to close. The states will lose revenue. Unemployment will rise. The horsemen, horses and trainers will just move to another friendlier state.

And, the politicians should be identified so, they can be recognized for the results of their actions. Another thing, the lobbyists who help craft these legislation orders should be identified for transparency purposes.

Btw, I'm not affected ... YET.

[DeanT]

I'm pretty certain this was recommended by a lobbyist. Considering how many states have followed suit, how can we be certain that these lobbyist don't work for the race tracks? After all, they would benefit by encouraging on track attendance vs. ADW's where individuals can bet multiple low wager amounts where if they win it will be undetectable. These laws that force people to think of ways to break the law are wrong. I'm pissed off.



That might be the path of least resistance, and tracks (at the behest of horsemen groups) might be doing what you say. However, I'm just a dumb bettor. I figure if they lobby to increase my betting bankroll I will bet more, enjoy racing more and instead of playing two days a week I may play three. In the end they will get more money from me, and many others. That seems to be preferred.

I would think GM would be happy if the gvt gave a $2000 rebate to up my bankroll to buy a car, so GM et al would lobby for it. I would think tracks would want the same thing. But then again, like I mentioned, Im just a dumb bettor.

[Robert Goren]

They are only opposed to gambling if there's nothing in it for them. The same legislators are loving the idea that there are billions of dollars of slots revenue floating around and they're getting their cut, but when they dont get their share, all of a sudden gambling becomes a bad, bad thing.Unfortunately that is only true of some of them. The promise of the all the slot money that goes across the river to Iowa won't budge a majority of Nebraska senators from their anti-casino stance.

[thespaah]

No it is not if you have been paying attention. I have touting the fact that our state legislatures have a large number of people opposed to gambling for years. Nobody wanted to listen. Every state has an anti gambling faction trying to back door making gambling illegal. While they would like to make illegal outright, they are not above taxing it out of existence if that is what it takes.
Not gambling..Just horse racing.
These pricks LOVE casino gambling and ,lotteries because the vast majority of players play these mindless games on brightly lit machines which require absolutely zero intelligence. all that is required is a bankroll and a compulsive personality. ... Betting on horse racing takes a certain amount of skill and knowledge to become reasonably successful. Fewer people that ever bet on horse racing. And as such has lost any luster it may have had as a cash cow for the state. And because IMO horse racing was merely tolerated by politicians because it could bring money into state coffers and the fact that horse racing no longer produces the revenue it used to, it may have provided the instruments to play it's own death knell.

[thespaah]

No it is not if you have been paying attention. I have touting the fact that our state legislatures have a large number of people opposed to gambling for years. Nobody wanted to listen. Every state has an anti gambling faction trying to back door making gambling illegal. While they would like to make illegal outright, they are not above taxing it out of existence if that is what it takes.
When it comes to gambling, politicians for the most part have no opinion.
There are of course those few who feel strongly that because of religious reasons all forms of gambling should be illegal. Of course these are the same Bible thumping morons that would bring back prohibition and blue laws if they could away with it.
In any event, I believe most legislators come down on whichever side on gambling that will get them the most votes.

[Robert Goren]

When it comes to gambling, politicians for the most part have no opinion.
There are of course those few who feel strongly that because of religious reasons all forms of gambling should be illegal. Of course these are the same Bible thumping morons that would bring back prohibition and blue laws if they could away with it.
In any event, I believe most legislators come down on whichever side on gambling that will get them the most votes.If only that were true!!!! I suggest you contact a few politicians and ask them their views on gambling. I think you find almost all have an opinion and for the most part that opinion is negative.

[whodoyoulike]

This an example of my references to how lobbyists, politicians and gambling interests are operating to protect our interests. I'm guessing Mssrs. Adelson and Wynn are only interested in protecting their own. Despite the fact their billions came from other gamblers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/us/politics/major-gop-donor-tests-his-influence-in-push-to-ban-online-gambling.html?hpw&rref=us&_r=0

I realize this is unrelated to the OP but, maybe it really isn't.