Social Inclusion sold?

[onefast99]

Possible $6m deal on the table. More news later!!!!

He said he has one offer for $6 million for 75 percent of the ownership in the colt who has run only twice and never in a stakes. Sanchez purchased the son of WinStar Farm’s first-crop sire Pioneerof the Nile for $60,000 at Keeneland’s 2012 yearling sale.

[lamboguy]

i hope the deal comes off, this would be a great break for you because i know you have the sister

[classhandicapper]

Pioneer of the Nile is turning out to be a terror.

[cj]

That price seems a bit absurd considering what he has done so far and his breeding. I'll believe it when I see it.

[dannyhill]

That price seems a bit absurd considering what he has done so far and his breeding. I'll believe it when I see it.
If it's true Derby fever is running wild.

[Mineshaft]

what kind of Beyer did the horse run Wednesday?

[lamboguy]

what kind of Beyer did the horse run Wednesday?i thought i heard on TVG that it was 103. the big but is can the horse run that type of beyer with the pressure on?

[Stillriledup]

That price seems a bit absurd considering what he has done so far and his breeding. I'll believe it when I see it.

No doubt. I would think for that price you want to see something more than a 1path front running score at Gulfstream.

[onefast99]

i thought i heard on TVG that it was 103. the big but is can the horse run that type of beyer with the pressure on?
111

[redshift1]

Florida Derby or Wood Memorial for next start. Given his limited resume i'd guess Gulf-stream where he's already demonstrated ability.

[BIG49010]

How much impact did the speed favoring rail have on his huge figure?

Did anyone see Falling Sky after his crushing front running race, when he came back.

How about every derby killer out of the Pletcher barn that runs out the TV, what are there records in the Derby?

How about his Four bandages?

People are nuts!

[classhandicapper]

How about his Four bandages?



I noticed that also. I don't know the trainer well. I wonder if he runs a lot of his horses like that.

[onefast99]

How much impact did the speed favoring rail have on his huge figure?

Did anyone see Falling Sky after his crushing front running race, when he came back.

How about every derby killer out of the Pletcher barn that runs out the TV, what are there records in the Derby?

How about his Four bandages?

People are nuts!
This isn't a Pletcher horse the trainer is 85 years young the horse just ran two big races. The numbers don't lie he never ran as a 2 y/o. He will be sold tomorrow and pointed towards the Wood or Arkansas derby. 17 days between races and going to the Florida Derby is a recipe for disaster.

[classhandicapper]

This isn't a Pletcher horse the trainer is 85 years young the horse just ran two big races. The numbers don't lie he never ran as a 2 y/o. He will be sold tomorrow and pointed towards the Wood or Arkansas derby. 17 days between races and going to the Florida Derby is a recipe for disaster.

I'm sure there are a lot of Sheets/TG players that are dying to bet against this horse if he comes back that quickly.

[Stillriledup]

How much impact did the speed favoring rail have on his huge figure?

Did anyone see Falling Sky after his crushing front running race, when he came back.

How about every derby killer out of the Pletcher barn that runs out the TV, what are there records in the Derby?

How about his Four bandages?

People are nuts!

Those large margin Pletcher winners with the huge figs, they don't always transfer that brilliant form to different jurisdictions....for whatever reason.

[BIG49010]

He reminds me of Soldat, that McLaughlin won the Fountain with a couple of years ago.

There is an excellent read on ESPN, about adjusting figures of Derby horses by the number of runners they face in there next race. The Florida Derby and Wood will be deep with horses, so we'll see what he's made of. I've seen many a 1 1/16th easy winner, come crashing down at 1 1/8 mile in there next prep.

I still dislike those 4 bandages, sorry.

[classhandicapper]

There is an excellent read on ESPN, about adjusting figures of Derby horses by the number of runners they face in there next race.



Link?

[onefast99]

He reminds me of Soldat, that McLaughlin won the Fountain with a couple of years ago.

There is an excellent read on ESPN, about adjusting figures of Derby horses by the number of runners they face in there next race. The Florida Derby and Wood will be deep with horses, so we'll see what he's made of. I've seen many a 1 1/16th easy winner, come crashing down at 1 1/8 mile in there next prep.

I still dislike those 4 bandages, sorry.
I'm sure that trainer has a logical explanation for those bandages and they could mean very little to the buyer who will vet the horse out.

[BIG49010]

Link?

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/10545898/unlucky-numbers

[onefast99]

He reminds me of Soldat, that McLaughlin won the Fountain with a couple of years ago.

There is an excellent read on ESPN, about adjusting figures of Derby horses by the number of runners they face in there next race. The Florida Derby and Wood will be deep with horses, so we'll see what he's made of. I've seen many a 1 1/16th easy winner, come crashing down at 1 1/8 mile in there next prep.

I still dislike those 4 bandages, sorry.
That's why this isn't an easy game to handicap and it's much harder when you own them! The fact is this horse went out in it's only two starts of its career and demolished those fields, if the numbers assigned to this horse are wrong then so be it. But to say this horse is a one race wonder is an opinion and in horse racing there tends to be many of those.

[classhandicapper]

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/10545898/unlucky-numbers

Thanks.

It's an interesting topic. I tend to give more credit to horses that win in big fields vs. small fields, but I think the depth of the field is also very important.

If a horse beats a 5 horse field, but they are all razor sharp horses suited to the class, distance, and surface, that might be tougher than a horse that beats a 12 horse field with only one other serious competitor and a bunch of other overmatched horses.

[TMQ]

I think they will sell, this horse might turn into something special but he is too young right now. If they are patient with this horse he could turn into something, I just don't like late bloomers for the Derby.

[onefast99]

I think they will sell, this horse might turn into something special but he is too young right now. If they are patient with this horse he could turn into something, I just don't like late bloomers for the Derby.
You are 100% correct being patient will pay off for the connections. Running him back in 17 days and going into the Florida Derby makes no sense at all. Go to the Wood or Arkansas derby.

[BIG49010]

Most average guys have to sell, that is the bad side of this story, and even guys that don't need the money sell out. You only have to look at War Emblem a few years ago, to see an owner with tons of money that sells out then misses the chance of a lifetime. Flip side of the coin, offers similar to this were offered to Crypto Star a few years before who won two derby preps, and the owner didn't accept and ended up with zero.

All in all this is a very tough game these guys play at this level, it will make an interesting story. I may be in the minority, but I think this is a very good crop of 3 yr olds.

[JustRalph]

Most average guys have to sell, that is the bad side of this story, and even guys that don't need the money sell out. You only have to look at War Emblem a few years ago, to see an owner with tons of money that sells out then misses the chance of a lifetime. Flip side of the coin, offers similar to this were offered to Crypto Star a few years before who won two derby preps, and the owner didn't accept and ended up with zero.

All in all this is a very tough game these guys play at this level, it will make an interesting story. I may be in the minority, but I think this is a very good crop of 3 yr olds.

I believe the first owner of War Emblem retained 25% of the horse. just an fyi

[onefast99]

Most average guys have to sell, that is the bad side of this story, and even guys that don't need the money sell out. You only have to look at War Emblem a few years ago, to see an owner with tons of money that sells out then misses the chance of a lifetime. Flip side of the coin, offers similar to this were offered to Crypto Star a few years before who won two derby preps, and the owner didn't accept and ended up with zero.

All in all this is a very tough game these guys play at this level, it will make an interesting story. I may be in the minority, but I think this is a very good crop of 3 yr olds.
The owners are looking to keep 25% of the horse per the article. They will sell and this horse will race in one of the classics, there are no guarantees he will win but it will be fun to watch him in new hands!

[onefast99]

It looks as if there is a hitch in the sale, the current owners do not want another trainer to take over the horse so they are requesting Manny Azpura continues to train him, stay tuned!

[classhandicapper]

It looks as if there is a hitch in the sale, the current owners do not want another trainer to take over the horse so they are requesting Manny Azpura continues to train him, stay tuned!

I read that also.

There's probably a way around that. Give him a piece of the horse.

[onefast99]

I read that also.

There's probably a way around that. Give him a piece of the horse.
The connections are all meeting tonight, the sale of the horse was to include the previous owners maintaining a 25% share, not a bad day at the office if and when it happens!:ThmbUp:

[Valuist]

Let's buy a horse off a perfect setup/perfect trip that produced an inflated figure. Who would do that? Oh yeah, the Arabs would. I guess if you have endless money, it doesn't matter how you run your business.

[maclr11]

Let's buy a horse off a perfect setup/perfect trip that produced an inflated figure. Who would do that? Oh yeah, the Arabs would. I guess if you have endless money, it doesn't matter how you run your business.

I'm sure the Irish made an offer too, for coolmore..obviously idiots : :D
They never win races either.....
Why wouldn't you say godolphin or darley we all would have got the msg, Arabs is kind of an inappropriate sterotype if you ask me.

But I'm sure people are lining up to make offers for this horse.

[Valuist]

We'll see. He likely will never have a setup that perfect again. Great time to sell. Foolish time to buy. His value will never be higher.

[JustRalph]

It looks as if there is a hitch in the sale, the current owners do not want another trainer to take over the horse so they are requesting Manny Azpura continues to train him, stay tuned!

Are they crazy? Take the 6 mill and go find another one...... :bang:

[davew]

I don't understand the perfect trip stuff, fastest horse the track has ever seen at distance. Reminded me of Secretariat running the Belmont, just kept getting faster.

[cj]

I don't understand the perfect trip stuff, fastest horse the track has ever seen at distance. Reminded me of Secretariat running the Belmont, just kept getting faster.

They haven't run the distance very often around the new track configuration.

He had a slow, uncontested lead. He could be a very good one, but he'll be a horrible bet next time.

[classhandicapper]

We'll see. He likely will never have a setup that perfect again. Great time to sell. Foolish time to buy. His value will never be higher.

I wouldn't buy him for the numbers we are hearing, but Pioneer of the Nile is probably the hottest new sire around. So maybe there's a lot of value there if he wins a Grade 1 and earns a lot of money too. I'd be more worried about the horse holding together. I've seen a lot of these horses that ran super fast early in their career turn into "flashes in the pan" and not hold together long. He raced with front bandages.

[TMQ]

They haven't run the distance very often around the new track configuration very often.

He had a slow, uncontested lead. He could be a very good one, but he'll be a horrible bet next time.
Are they pointing towards the Florida Derby or the Wood? 2 1/2 weeks rest seems a recipe for trouble. Though he did seem like he had a lot left in the tank.

[magwell]

If they dont take the money and run, it will probably be another story of the day 2 fools met...... the one that offered and the one that refused.....;)

[classhandicapper]

He had a slow, uncontested lead. He could be a very good one, but he'll be a horrible bet next time.

Not if every wise guy reaches the same conclusion and throws him out because he had an easy trip. ;)

That's what you have to decide.

I suspect I'm going to punt because I do have a reason to believe he's a very good horse, but I'm worried about him crashing and burning. So I'm not sure I want to be on either side of this one.

[Valuist]

I wouldn't buy him for the numbers we are hearing, but Pioneer of the Nile is probably the hottest new sire around. So maybe there's a lot of value there if he wins a Grade 1 and earns a lot of money too. I'd be more worried about the horse holding together. I've seen a lot of these horses that ran super fast early in their career turn into "flashes in the pan" and not hold together long. He raced with front bandages.

We've seen A LOT of these "flashes in the pan" at Gulfstream over the past few years. Horses that seem to never be able to duplicate their big figs there.

[classhandicapper]

We've seen A LOT of these "flashes in the pan" at Gulfstream over the past few years. Horses that seem to never be able to duplicate their big figs there.

Yep. Agree with that.

Beyond that, it just seems to me that a lot of horses that run too fast too early don't hang around very long.

[cj]

Not if every wise guy reaches the same conclusion and throws him out because he had an easy trip. ;)

That's what you have to decide.

I suspect I'm going to punt because I do have a reason to believe he's a very good horse, but I'm worried about him crashing and burning. So I'm not sure I want to be on either side of this one.

You passing was 1 to 20, why I call you Passhandicapper. Hey, at least I use the P!

I understand what you are saying, but without a doubt enough people will bet him that he will be an underlay. I'll be shocked if he isn't.

[Grits]

Yep. I'd be more worried about the horse holding together.

This having been the case with Pioneer Of The Nile.

http://www.winstarfarm.com/horses/pioneerof-the-nile-5058.html

I'm guessing Social Inclusion's Beyer was added to POTN's stallion page on the gallop out.

[Mineshaft]

Are they crazy? Take the 6 mill and go find another one...... :bang:



Yep exactly. They are going to mess around, the horse will run back, then they wont be able to give it away

[Stillriledup]

Not if every wise guy reaches the same conclusion and throws him out because he had an easy trip. ;)

That's what you have to decide.

I suspect I'm going to punt because I do have a reason to believe he's a very good horse, but I'm worried about him crashing and burning. So I'm not sure I want to be on either side of this one.

You always want to be against a horse like this at 1-5 next time. He will carry his hype to the post next time and if he's in a field where he might not get an easy lead, or he might have to win a stretch battle, i'll find out if he can and be against him at 1-5 or some other ridiculously short price.

[onefast99]

Yep exactly. They are going to mess around, the horse will run back, then they wont be able to give it away
Once the horse is in the right hands he will do well. Running him back in 17 days as I have said earlier in this thread is a recipe for disaster. The only positive about running him in the Florida derby is the fact there may be a small field this year if it is a full field I wouldn't run him I would wait for the Arkansas Derby or the Wood. The connections are all meeting tonight so I am sure there will be some news tomorrow, don't be alarmed if you hear Pletcher is now involved!

[Stillriledup]

It looks as if there is a hitch in the sale, the current owners do not want another trainer to take over the horse so they are requesting Manny Azpura continues to train him, stay tuned!

:D

Nobody is going to pay millions for a horse unless they can give the horse to their trainer. The "current owners" are jaded and think this horse is better than he is in real life....and that's when you get into trouble, when you don't really know the value of your own horse and get "Stars" in your eyes.

[cj]

Yep exactly. They are going to mess around, the horse will run back, then they wont be able to give it away

The chances they were offered that money (for 75%, no less) fall a lot closer to none than slim.

[onefast99]

The chances they were offered that money (for 75%, no less) fall a lot closer to none than slim.
The connections were all in town yesterday Pletcher had to head north but his input in this as of right now is minimal at best. The offer is real, but the terms of the sale all have to be worked out. I don't think HRTV would be following this as close as they are if in your words this is bs! As we get closer to the Florida Derby more information will be released.

[Mineshaft]

The connections were all in town yesterday Pletcher had to head north but his input in this as of right now is minimal at best. The offer is real, but the terms of the sale all have to be worked out. I don't think HRTV would be following this as close as they are if in your words this is bs! As we get closer to the Florida Derby more information will be released.






Are you a partner in trying to buy the horse?

[onefast99]

Are you a partner in trying to buy the horse?
No but I wish I had one like that!:jump:

[Fager Fan]

It looks as if there is a hitch in the sale, the current owners do not want another trainer to take over the horse so they are requesting Manny Azpura continues to train him, stay tuned!

This makes no sense. How would this be a hitch in the sale? It's unusual that someone would buy majority interest in a horse (and for this kind of money, which I also doubt) and not move to their own trainer. But if they want to leave with the current trainer, what's the hitch? Like the trainer said no? Trainers give their right arms for horses like this.

[onefast99]

This makes no sense. How would this be a hitch in the sale? It's unusual that someone would buy majority interest in a horse (and for this kind of money, which I also doubt) and not move to their own trainer. But if they want to leave with the current trainer, what's the hitch? Like the trainer said no? Trainers give their right arms for horses like this.
The new owners want to move the horse to their trainer. That could potentially be a deal breaker its that simple.

[classhandicapper]

You always want to be against a horse like this at 1-5 next time. He will carry his hype to the post next time and if he's in a field where he might not get an easy lead, or he might have to win a stretch battle, i'll find out if he can and be against him at 1-5 or some other ridiculously short price.

If he's 1-5, I'll probably bet against him. I don't think that's going to be the case. There are way too many people talking about the slow pace, small field, how well speed does at GP etc... that are discounting his effort and looking to key against him.

Every good handicapper I know probably agrees with you. That was my view for as long as I can remember too. I have a different view now.

If you bet against all the horses coming off a trip like he had, you'll probably net out OK because there will be a lot of overrated and over bet horses in the group. But I don't think biases, easy paces, easy trips etc.. impact all horses equally. There will be some that will win impressively again and go on to prove they are very good horses.

The trick is figuring out the very good ones from the dregs before they reveal it on the track so you know who to bet against and who to watch.

I believe this is going to be a very good horse whose biggest obstacle is that he developed so fast he may fall apart before he gets to prove it (maybe even in his next race).

Another recent example was Samraat. Everyone was trying to beat him after his easy trip too. But I was pretty convinced he was very good. He turned out to be and I saved money.

So we'll see. I don't have a magic bullet formula. I looked at all the horses like this that turned out to be really good and built a profile. I don't bet against those that fit the profile anymore unless the price is ridiculous. This horse has a lot of those attributes.

At 1-5, 2-5, 3-5,.... in a really tough field loaded with speed you can play against almost anyone. But I wouldn't line up against this horse just because he's the favorite and had an easy trip last out. I'd be more apt to play against him because he may fall apart physically.

[Fager Fan]

The new owners want to move the horse to their trainer. That could potentially be a deal breaker its that simple.

Misread you, sorry. Hard to believe the current owners think they can sell controlling interest and still have a say in anything (including trainer). Makes me think the rumors that this deal isn't real is truth. Or the current owner is nuts. I'd heard just the same day as this deal was tweeted that they'd accept $2m for half, far less. And no takers at that price either to date. That he did this on lead at GP is a problem to sensible folk considering this expensive of a purchase.

[onefast99]

Misread you, sorry. Hard to believe the current owners think they can sell controlling interest and still have a say in anything (including trainer). Makes me think the rumors that this deal isn't real is truth. Or the current owner is nuts. I'd heard just the same day as this deal was tweeted that they'd accept $2m for half, far less. And no takers at that price either to date. That he did this on lead at GP is a problem to sensible folk considering this expensive of a purchase.
HRTV just spent another 5 minutes on this horse, the ifs and whats of the possible sale etc. If it was you would you sell the horse? Take into account your current financial situation as well as the possibility of going to the Kentucky Derby. All of this is weighing on the owners selling or keeping this horse!

[cj]

The connections were all in town yesterday Pletcher had to head north but his input in this as of right now is minimal at best. The offer is real, but the terms of the sale all have to be worked out. I don't think HRTV would be following this as close as they are if in your words this is bs! As we get closer to the Florida Derby more information will be released.

The part I don't believe was the price, 6 mil for 75%. We'll see...

[onefast99]

The part I don't believe was the price, 6 mil for 75%. We'll see...
I'm sure once the deal is done the real numbers will be known.

[lamboguy]

HRTV just spent another 5 minutes on this horse, the ifs and whats of the possible sale etc. If it was you would you sell the horse? Take into account your current financial situation as well as the possibility of going to the Kentucky Derby. All of this is weighing on the owners selling or keeping this horse!
if my goal was to win the Kentucky Derby, i would sell this horse and try to buy either CAIRO PRINCE, TAPITURE, STRONG MANDATE, or BAYERN and any of the other Baffert 3 year olds.

don't get me wrong, if this horse qualify's to get into the race and that is a big if at this point, he could wind up in a race where he catches an easy lead and the horses behind are all so good that they battle themselves into submission and SOCIAL INCLUSION gets a base on balls and goes to the winner's circle.

[Valuist]

If he's 1-5, I'll probably bet against him. I don't think that's going to be the case. There are way too many people talking about the slow pace, small field, how well speed does at GP etc... that are discounting his effort and looking to key against him.

Every good handicapper I know probably agrees with you. That was my view for as long as I can remember too. I have a different view now.

If you bet against all the horses coming off a trip like he had, you'll probably net out OK because there will be a lot of overrated and over bet horses in the group. But I don't think biases, easy paces, easy trips etc.. impact all horses equally. There will be some that will win impressively again and go on to prove they are very good horses.




I think you always have to bet against this type. Their pps on paper always look better than reality. That is the very definition of what causes horses to be overbet. We don't expect to be right every time, so if they sometimes beat us at underlaid odds, who really cares?

[TMQ]

If Social Inclusion enters the Florida Derby I don't even think he will be the favorite....... Cairo Prince has a cult like following right now!

[letswastemoney]

This 1/5 talk is silly. Social Inclusion is going to be 8/5 at lowest.

[classhandicapper]

I think you always have to bet against this type. Their pps on paper always look better than reality. That is the very definition of what causes horses to be overbet. We don't expect to be right every time, so if they sometimes beat us at underlaid odds, who really cares?

Your assumption that the PPs on paper ALWAYs look better than the reality is what I now disagree with.

Sometimes? Yes.
Most of the time? Yes
Always? No.

If DR Fager was in that race instead of Social Inclusion I don't think he would have run a 125 speed figure and won by 20. IMO the race wouldn't have looked all that much different unless the jockey wanted to win bigger.

So how do you tell the difference between a Dr Fager, a Social Inclusion, and some rat that got lucky with an easy trip and ran way faster than he could under honest conditions?

I think I may have a pretty good way of identifying that subgroup of "so if they sometimes beat us", but clearly nothing is 100%.

[onefast99]

Your assumption that the PPs on paper ALWAYs look better than the reality is what I now disagree with.

Sometimes? Yes.
Most of the time? Yes
Always? No.

If DR Fager was in that race instead of Social Inclusion I don't think he would have run a 125 speed figure and won by 20. IMO the race wouldn't have looked all that much different unless the jockey wanted to win bigger.

So how do you tell the difference between a Dr Fager, a Social Inclusion, and some rat that got lucky with an easy trip and ran way faster than he could under honest conditions?

I think I may have a pretty good way of identifying that subgroup of "so if they sometimes beat us", but clearly nothing is 100%.
Watch the race again honor code under a heavy urging was trying his best to get to SI and couldn't, give credit where credit is due this is a very promising horse. Pioneer of the Nile has two top 3 yo's right now look at the big picture if this horse earns a spot in the Kentucky Derby POTN will be branded as the hottest sire going, it happens every year!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq8VuNXso8A

[Valuist]

Your assumption that the PPs on paper ALWAYs look better than the reality is what I now disagree with.

Sometimes? Yes.
Most of the time? Yes
Always? No.

If DR Fager was in that race instead of Social Inclusion I don't think he would have run a 125 speed figure and won by 20. IMO the race wouldn't have looked all that much different unless the jockey wanted to win bigger.

So how do you tell the difference between a Dr Fager, a Social Inclusion, and some rat that got lucky with an easy trip and ran way faster than he could under honest conditions?

I think I may have a pretty good way of identifying that subgroup of "so if they sometimes beat us", but clearly nothing is 100%.

It can get tricky when one tries to identify that subgroup. Maybe if it was a $5k claimer and the winner won completely geared down and then moved up to $10k, you might get a price. In this specific case, I think Joe Public is going to see the big Beyer, the big win margin (and subsequent big margin to 3rd), and the name Honor Code in the company line and he's going to get bet pretty heavily. Maybe he will prove me wrong. But I doubt it.

[cj]

I'm sure once the deal is done the real numbers will be known.

Really? Seems like it is usually kept secret, as much as possible anyway.

[Fager Fan]

HRTV just spent another 5 minutes on this horse, the ifs and whats of the possible sale etc. If it was you would you sell the horse? Take into account your current financial situation as well as the possibility of going to the Kentucky Derby. All of this is weighing on the owners selling or keeping this horse!

If the number of 5 or 6m (heard both now, the original tweet said 5), I'd ask how soon the contract could be drawn up, worried they'd realize the price was insane. I'd also take the more realistic 2m for half. Either way I get to stay in and enjoy the horse.

If I kept controlling interest (or the whole colt), I wouldn't be attempting the Derby. It's too much too soon and my worry over ruining him would take away from my enjoyment of being in the Derby.

I saw the mention that we'll all learn the price if the deal goes thru but that's not usually the case. It's standard that there is a confidentiality clause in there. I've heard of lots of rumored prices that weren't true (and some that were - you have to consider the source).

[onefast99]

Really? Seems like it is usually kept secret, as much as possible anyway.
Numbers will be thrown around but no one will know the final number if they choose to keep quiet about it.

[Stillriledup]

The part I don't believe was the price, 6 mil for 75%. We'll see...

If 6 mil for 75% is accurate, i'm going to start buying yearlings and praying. :D

[onefast99]

If 6 mil for 75% is accurate, i'm going to start buying yearlings and praying. :D
If they are out of POTN you are on the right track!

[classhandicapper]

In this specific case, I think Joe Public is going to see the big Beyer, the big win margin (and subsequent big margin to 3rd), and the name Honor Code in the company line and he's going to get bet pretty heavily. Maybe he will prove me wrong. But I doubt it.

I agree. That's why I won't bet him. I just don't think they will be wrong to bet this horse hard unless they way overdo it.

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=classhandicapper]I agree. That's why I won't bet him. I just don't think they will be wrong to bet this horse hard unless they way overdo it.[/QUOTE
A small field will result in SI getting bet down. You have every right to bet against him that's what makes this game so much fun. I'm still confused on what you didn't like in his last race that wouldn't make you throw at least a few bucks on him in an exotic. castellano is beating the living crap out of his horse and SI is widening the gap with every stride between the two. Look at the gallop out no one came near SI, that's a legit win and beyer.

[classhandicapper]

onefast99,

You are misunderstanding. I've been the one arguing that just because he had an easy trip on the lead does not mean he's not a really good horse.

[letswastemoney]

He already had a big TimeformUS figure before that race, even though it was a sprint. It was a higher number than anything Honor Code ever achieved.

[Valuist]

[QUOTE=classhandicapper]I agree. That's why I won't bet him. I just don't think they will be wrong to bet this horse hard unless they way overdo it.[/QUOTE
A small field will result in SI getting bet down. You have every right to bet against him that's what makes this game so much fun. I'm still confused on what you didn't like in his last race that wouldn't make you throw at least a few bucks on him in an exotic. castellano is beating the living crap out of his horse and SI is widening the gap with every stride between the two. Look at the gallop out no one came near SI, that's a legit win and beyer.

I think you were referring to me. The trip he had couldn't have been more perfect. That creates an illusion that the horse is better than they really are. Under the circumstances, whoever got the lead figured to run a big race and big figure. And throw in the fact is was GP at the goofy 1 1/16 mile distance. I wouldn't hold the race against Honor Code, as it was a real bad setup for him.

[BIG49010]

If he wins his next race, he the second coming of Big Brown, if he doesn't win he is another flash in the pan that got a easy lead on biased race track.

[onefast99]

[QUOTE=onefast99]

I think you were referring to me. The trip he had couldn't have been more perfect. That creates an illusion that the horse is better than they really are. Under the circumstances, whoever got the lead figured to run a big race and big figure. And throw in the fact is was GP at the goofy 1 1/16 mile distance. I wouldn't hold the race against Honor Code, as it was a real bad setup for him.
So it benefited one and didn't benefit the other? No one said he ran the perfect race but the last time I looked he did one hell of a job getting the lead and widening the gap over HC when castellano was all over HC SI just continued to widen the margin between the two.Look at the gallop out contreras just let him play with that field and maybe he does the same exact thing again in a KD prep race a week from Saturday at GP.

[Valuist]

[QUOTE=Valuist]
So it benefited one and didn't benefit the other? No one said he ran the perfect race but the last time I looked he did one hell of a job getting the lead and widening the gap over HC when castellano was all over HC SI just continued to widen the margin between the two.Look at the gallop out contreras just let him play with that field and maybe he does the same exact thing again in a KD prep race a week from Saturday at GP.

Yes, it absolutely benefitted one and not another. Race dynamics are all about who benefits and who is disadvantaged.

[classhandicapper]

Honor Code ran exactly as I (and probably Shug) expected. He ran well. He would have won almost any other race of that caliber, on that track, on that day, but he ran into a buzzsaw.

This is Social Inclusion's record.

1. He had a monster work before his first start that indicated he had a lot of talent (45 3/5 hg 2/79). So winning first out was not a shock. In hindsight, 9-1 on a Poineer of the Nile with that work is the shock. It had to be that the trainer has a mediocre record with FTS otherwise that horse would have (and should have) gotten bet much harder. I can't guarantee that I would have bet him that day had I handicapped the race, but I guarantee he would have the horse I was interested in betting on.

2. In his first start, he got left a little on the inside, eventually rushed up, took command, and drew off big in fast time with something left (albeit on a speed favoring track).

3. For his next start he was adding Lasix. So between it being his second career start and adding Lasix, taking a major step forward would not be a shock.

4. In the race, he made the lead easily, but in mid race when Honor Code (who we already know has a very good turn of foot) started narrowing the gap, he kicked away easily without even being asked for his best. He had a gear that Honor Code did not have. When finally asked, he drew far away. Both the middle and end of the race were quite fast.

5. Honor Code was 17 lengths ahead of the 3rd horse giving further evidence that he had run well, but the winner ran very well.

6. Some very smart people are offering large amounts of money for this horse (from what I've read there was already interest before he even made his first start) and the connections are turning down life changing amounts until he has another start (risking the score of a lifetime). Either they are all insane or they are all confident this is a very good horse (despite any biases, slow paces, and GP).

What we have here is a horse that raced on a speed favoring track and then got an easy lead at GP. That 2 things most handicappers like to bet against.

But we also have horse that every bit of evidence suggests is a very good horse and not some mediocre flash in the pan that caught some easy trips.

You can't bet on him next out at short odds.

I sure wouldn't buy him at the prices being tossed around.

But it's almost impossible for me to think this is anything other than a very talented and very good horse.

I am rooting for them to handle him properly because I'd hate to see him rushed and ruined because of Derby fever. Horses with this profile fall apart way more often than horses that develop slowly and are given time. IMO, that's the biggest risk.

[onefast99]

6. Some very smart people are offering large amounts of money for this horse (from what I've read there was already interest before he even made his first start) and the connections are turning down life changing amounts until he has another start (risking the score of a lifetime). Either they are all insane or they are all confident this is a very good horse (despite any biases, slow paces, and GP).

No one knows if the amount being offered would be a life changing amount as no one knows the financial condition of Ron Sanchez or Rontos racing. They seem to be very happy with the horse they have and they plan on moving forward with him. The FD draw is next Wednesday if nothing materializes by then the current connections are going the distance!

[letswastemoney]

Put an average allowance racehorse on the lead in that race, like Master Lightning, and he would have folded. In fact, Master Lightning had just as easy of a lead in the Remsen and folded quite easily.

[Thebigguy]

Social Inclusion possibly being sold and some how Master Lighting is mentioned. :confused: :confused:

[letswastemoney]

Social Inclusion possibly being sold and some how Master Lighting is mentioned. :confused: :confused:
Anyone will see the point I was trying to make, whether they agree with it or not. It fit the conversation above.

I am very sick of you discrediting everything I'm writing. You aren't just writing to interact with me. You're writing to put me down at every possible moment.

[onefast99]

SI owners are now in town. This will be a very interesting weekend as the Florida Derby will be picked on Wednesday. My feeling is that the horse is sold on Sunday and in new hands by the time the sweet 16 are known!

[lamboguy]

the horse that lost to SOCIAL INCLUSION in his maiden win is in the 3rd at the Big A this afternoon. TIGER TANK, will give you an idea how good or bad the $6 million horse is.

[onefast99]

easy win at Aqueduct today. Stakes coordinator says 6 confirmed for Florida Derby Cairo Prince won't run if the track is wet.

[onefast99]

With Honor Code out does the SI connections re-think the Wood and stay at GP? As of now GP has 5 horses committed to the Florida Derby, one is an allowance horse with limited talent.

[classhandicapper]

Constitution was another example of a lightly raced quality horse that got loose in a slow pace on speed favoring day at GP that came right back with another big effort under more honest conditions.

[classhandicapper]

Constitution was another example of a lightly raced quality horse that got loose in a slow pace on speed favoring day at GP that came right back with another big effort under more honest conditions.

By the way, I tried to beat him, but I knew I was playing with fire and did have him underneath in my trifectas.

[dannyhill]

SI draws outside post for Wood, post 11. Certainly will see what he may or may not be from out there.

[davew]

With no points yet for for Derby, doesn't Social Inclusion need to get first or second to start in the Derby?

[onefast99]

With no points yet for for Derby, doesn't Social Inclusion need to get first or second to start in the Derby?
yes

[Maximillion]

Honor Code ran exactly as I (and probably Shug) expected. He ran well. He would have won almost any other race of that caliber, on that track, on that day, but he ran into a buzzsaw.

This is Social Inclusion's record.

1. He had a monster work before his first start that indicated he had a lot of talent (45 3/5 hg 2/79). So winning first out was not a shock. In hindsight, 9-1 on a Poineer of the Nile with that work is the shock. It had to be that the trainer has a mediocre record with FTS otherwise that horse would have (and should have) gotten bet much harder. I can't guarantee that I would have bet him that day had I handicapped the race, but I guarantee he would have the horse I was interested in betting on.

2. In his first start, he got left a little on the inside, eventually rushed up, took command, and drew off big in fast time with something left (albeit on a speed favoring track).

3. For his next start he was adding Lasix. So between it being his second career start and adding Lasix, taking a major step forward would not be a shock.

4. In the race, he made the lead easily, but in mid race when Honor Code (who we already know has a very good turn of foot) started narrowing the gap, he kicked away easily without even being asked for his best. He had a gear that Honor Code did not have. When finally asked, he drew far away. Both the middle and end of the race were quite fast.

5. Honor Code was 17 lengths ahead of the 3rd horse giving further evidence that he had run well, but the winner ran very well.

6. Some very smart people are offering large amounts of money for this horse (from what I've read there was already interest before he even made his first start) and the connections are turning down life changing amounts until he has another start (risking the score of a lifetime). Either they are all insane or they are all confident this is a very good horse (despite any biases, slow paces, and GP).

What we have here is a horse that raced on a speed favoring track and then got an easy lead at GP. That 2 things most handicappers like to bet against.

But we also have horse that every bit of evidence suggests is a very good horse and not some mediocre flash in the pan that caught some easy trips.

You can't bet on him next out at short odds.

I sure wouldn't buy him at the prices being tossed around.

But it's almost impossible for me to think this is anything other than a very talented and very good horse.

I am rooting for them to handle him properly because I'd hate to see him rushed and ruined because of Derby fever. Horses with this profile fall apart way more often than horses that develop slowly and are given time. IMO, that's the biggest risk.

I agree with you,he is the most interesting horse on the derby trail atm.

In a way,I would like to see him rate in the Wood,to get an idea of what he can do from behind horses.I believe he needs to get 2nd to earn a spot in the derby?
Ideally,from my perspective,would like to see him mid-pack early with a solid finish,and if thats enough to get in.....he would be my choice.

[Cratos]

I agree with you,he is the most interesting horse on the derby trail atm.

In a way,I would like to see him rate in the Wood,to get an idea of what he can do from behind horses.I believe he needs to get 2nd to earn a spot in the derby?
Ideally,from my perspective,would like to see him mid-pack early with a solid finish,and if thats enough to get in.....he would be my choice.

I am still leaning toward Strong Mandate, but I am warming up to Social Inclusion because he reminds me of Seattle Slew a little bit.

[burnsy]

He's not some sort of speed horse. People should watch the race, he can rate and rate kindly. He does a 24 and change, then 23's with the jock motionless. HC is getting the crap whipped out of him and this horse is moving at a good clip with little urging. I guess he works this way too. They are not offering this kind of money on a speed horse or sprinter. Saturday will be the test from the 11 post....its his 3rd start..in a grade 1....if he hits the board, this is a serious race horse.

[theguarantee]

Honor Code ran exactly as I (and probably Shug) expected. He ran well. He would have won almost any other race of that caliber, on that track, on that day, but he ran into a buzzsaw.

This is Social Inclusion's record.

1. He had a monster work before his first start that indicated he had a lot of talent (45 3/5 hg 2/79). So winning first out was not a shock. In hindsight, 9-1 on a Poineer of the Nile with that work is the shock. It had to be that the trainer has a mediocre record with FTS otherwise that horse would have (and should have) gotten bet much harder. I can't guarantee that I would have bet him that day had I handicapped the race, but I guarantee he would have the horse I was interested in betting on.

2. In his first start, he got left a little on the inside, eventually rushed up, took command, and drew off big in fast time with something left (albeit on a speed favoring track).

3. For his next start he was adding Lasix. So between it being his second career start and adding Lasix, taking a major step forward would not be a shock.

4. In the race, he made the lead easily, but in mid race when Honor Code (who we already know has a very good turn of foot) started narrowing the gap, he kicked away easily without even being asked for his best. He had a gear that Honor Code did not have. When finally asked, he drew far away. Both the middle and end of the race were quite fast.

5. Honor Code was 17 lengths ahead of the 3rd horse giving further evidence that he had run well, but the winner ran very well.

6. Some very smart people are offering large amounts of money for this horse (from what I've read there was already interest before he even made his first start) and the connections are turning down life changing amounts until he has another start (risking the score of a lifetime). Either they are all insane or they are all confident this is a very good horse (despite any biases, slow paces, and GP).

What we have here is a horse that raced on a speed favoring track and then got an easy lead at GP. That 2 things most handicappers like to bet against.

But we also have horse that every bit of evidence suggests is a very good horse and not some mediocre flash in the pan that caught some easy trips.

You can't bet on him next out at short odds.

I sure wouldn't buy him at the prices being tossed around.

But it's almost impossible for me to think this is anything other than a very talented and very good horse.

I am rooting for them to handle him properly because I'd hate to see him rushed and ruined because of Derby fever. Horses with this profile fall apart way more often than horses that develop slowly and are given time. IMO, that's the biggest risk.

Nice post. For all the hype the Wood has gotten, and me normally being a huge NYRA homer, I don't see much in his way here. While there were some excuses I thought In Trouble's last kind of exposed Samraat, Uncle Sigh and co. I cannot come up with a valid excuse for Kristo other than maybe he needs to be on the lead -- something that I don't see as a benefit here. Plus, Sadler's numbers shipping, in particular to NY, make this one tough to back.

The only horse I will probably use beyond Social Inclusion is Wicked Strong who was way against the racetrack last out and I think showed a huge sneaky improvement in that effort than the prior flop. Mexikoma was gathering a lot of hype for the run he put in but really I think WS's race was better. The other two that finished ahead of him are Constitution and Tonalist. Considering the wide trip, racetrack and possibly premature move I think you could make a case that he ran as well as the top 3, all of which would be huge players here. He's been in great company, maybe 3rd off the layoff and a bit of extra ground at the Big A for Jerkens and it all comes together.

[cj]

Nice post. For all the hype the Wood has gotten, and me normally being a huge NYRA homer, I don't see much in his way here. While there were some excuses I thought In Trouble's last kind of exposed Samraat, Uncle Sigh and co. I cannot come up with a valid excuse for Kristo other than maybe he needs to be on the lead -- something that I don't see as a benefit here. Plus, Sadler's numbers shipping, in particular to NY, make this one tough to back.

The only horse I will probably use beyond Social Inclusion is Wicked Strong who was way against the racetrack last out and I think showed a huge sneaky improvement in that effort than the prior flop. Mexikoma was gathering a lot of hype for the run he put in but really I think WS's race was better. The other two that finished ahead of him are Constitution and Tonalist. Considering the wide trip, racetrack and possibly premature move I think you could make a case that he ran as well as the top 3, all of which would be huge players here. He's been in great company, maybe 3rd off the layoff and a bit of extra ground at the Big A for Jerkens and it all comes together.

I'm not a big proponent of the bounce theory. I think it is way overused. But, if any horse fit the circumstances laid out by James Quinn in his book years ago to a tee, it was In Trouble.

[Robert Goren]

Did this horse actually get sold?

[cj]

Did this horse actually get sold?

No.

[classhandicapper]

Drawing outside the other speeds potentially did not make his life any easier. He could easily get hung out wide running fast early.

On the flip side, I doubt the connections of any of the other major contenders want to use their horses hard to hang Social Inclusion out wide in the Wood when they already have enough points and the Derby is the major objective. No point emptying your horse in a prep. So it's not impossible he clears fairly easily and then they stalk him.

It's an interesting race even if it's not a great betting race.

[onefast99]

Did this horse actually get sold?
The money that was offered was very good but the connections requested a change of trainer, so there was no sale.

[theguarantee]

I'm not a big proponent of the bounce theory. I think it is way overused. But, if any horse fit the circumstances laid out by James Quinn in his book years ago to a tee, it was In Trouble.

Fair, interesting and appreciated point. Definitely something to consider at greater length when handicapping this race.

[PhantomOnTour]

I wonder how Social Inclusion will react when he doesn't get the early lead on Saturday.

[classhandicapper]

I wonder how Social Inclusion will react when he doesn't get the early lead on Saturday.

My guess is that would be OK.

It's being hung out 3-4 wide in fast fractions that would undo all but a horse that is very superior to the field.

[onefast99]

My guess is that would be OK.

It's being hung out 3-4 wide in fast fractions that would undo all but a horse that is very superior to the field.
He ran great earned 20 points(could have been 40 but got nosed out for 2nd)I see him going to the Preakness and winning.

[Stillriledup]

He ran great earned 20 points(could have been 40 but got nosed out for 2nd)I see him going to the Preakness and winning.

Is the Preakness in Florida? :D

[bks]

And is California Chrome not running in the Preakness?

[magwell]

If they dont take the money and run, it will probably be another story of the day 2 fools met...... the one that offered and the one that refused.....;) Sad but true.........how tough is this game

[Stillriledup]

And is California Chrome not running in the Preakness?

They'll skip the Preakness after they get trounced in the Ky Derby. ;)

[lamboguy]

He ran great earned 20 points(could have been 40 but got nosed out for 2nd)I see him going to the Preakness and winning.i thought so too. CALIFORNIA CHROME ran as good as a 3 year old could run though in his race today.

we shall see what happens next week. today was exciting on both coasts.

[classhandicapper]

He ran great earned 20 points(could have been 40 but got nosed out for 2nd)I see him going to the Preakness and winning.

I also thought he ran a very good race. He was hung out wide initially, used to get into position, battled, and then moved a bit too early to open up. I think he showed enough to conclude that with an easier trip from the inside or with an easier pace he would have won the race.

All that said, that was probably the rare occurrence where losing a photo was a good thing.

They were rushing him. Now they have chance to take their time, freshen him up, think about the Preakness, or even freshen him up and look for a few softer spots with the Haskell in mind. He does appear to have the talent to win a Grade 1 if they do it right.

[pele polo]

The connections have nothing to worry about he will be a very good horse. $8 million worth though? Time will tell.

[onefast99]

Is the Preakness in Florida? :D
What? The connections will race him in the Preakness and according to Ron Sanchez "he won't get beat again".

[Stillriledup]

What? The connections will race him in the Preakness and according to Ron Sanchez "he won't get beat again".

Who's Ron Sanchez?

[onefast99]

Who's Ron Sanchez?
owner of Rontos racing and SI.

[onefast99]

The connections have nothing to worry about he will be a very good horse. $8 million worth though? Time will tell.
The owner didn't want to give the horse off to another trainer, he has been very open during this entire time, the $ wasn't life changing to him. If it was me I would have sold the horse and let another trainer work with him while I enjoy the money and the 25% ownership!

[Robert Fischer]

He ran much better than I expected. I thought he would show speed and fold, but he was actually arguably best in the Wood, and he ran much better than Samraat.

I still am not crazy about this horse, but if he hit the board in a good edition of the Preakness, I would not be shocked.

[alhattab]

I also thought he ran a very good race. He was hung out wide initially, used to get into position, battled, and then moved a bit too early to open up. I think he showed enough to conclude that with an easier trip from the inside or with an easier pace he would have won the race.

All that said, that was probably the rare occurrence where losing a photo was a good thing.

They were rushing him. Now they have chance to take their time, freshen him up, think about the Preakness, or even freshen him up and look for a few softer spots with the Haskell in mind. He does appear to have the talent to win a Grade 1 if they do it right.

Agreed. I would have the Haskell on my dance card if I were the connections. Maybe a sequence like Derby Trial, Woody Stephens, Dwyer, Haskell, PA Derby if he stays healthy. Think they might be better off giving him some time but he's sharp now so they need to get while the gettin is good. Maybe they can nurse him along.

[nijinski]

What? The connections will race him in the Preakness and according to Ron Sanchez "he won't get beat again".

I might believe him without the front bandages .

[Delawaretrainer]

Agreed. I would have the Haskell on my dance card if I were the connections. Maybe a sequence like Derby Trial, Woody Stephens, Dwyer, Haskell, PA Derby if he stays healthy. Think they might be better off giving him some time but he's sharp now so they need to get while the gettin is good. Maybe they can nurse him along.

I agree with the time thing. To me he looked a little too sharp for me. In six weeks this horse ran three huge races, breezed 5-6 times reeeeally close together and shipped in a van to NY. I thought he was really good looking in the post parade, good weight, but as it went on he looked pretty washy. I guarantee relaxation would be a priority to the new trainer if he changed hands.

[TravisVOX]

Social Inclusion ran huge. It was an impossible spot. Big future if they can keep him together.

[Robert Goren]

A miler if I have ever seen one.

[onefast99]

A miler if I have ever seen one.
Put any front runner in the 11 post and you would say the same thing. He wont get more than a mile and a quarter I will give you that but only one of the three classics has that distance and you wont see SI in that final leg of the triple crown.

[davew]

A miler if I have ever seen one.

Eleven post, lots of early speed inside, short run to turn, 3 wide,....
did fairly well considering situation.

It will be interesting to see horse develop, campaign, and what the distance is of first graded stakes win.

[Thebigguy]

I think its more likely that Social Inclusion turns out to be very good, then it is he turns into a bust and falls apart. The Wood was a tough spot, 3rd time out.
Ill ask this, and Im curious to know what everyone thinks. If Social Inclusion ran in the Carter on Saturday where would he have finished? One could argue that he might have won that race, a 3yr old with 2 career starts.

[Stillriledup]

I think its more likely that Social Inclusion turns out to be very good, then it is he turns into a bust and falls apart. The Wood was a tough spot, 3rd time out.
Ill ask this, and Im curious to know what everyone thinks. If Social Inclusion ran in the Carter on Saturday where would he have finished? One could argue that he might have won that race, a 3yr old with 2 career starts.

He would have won easy if you swap him out for the winner, he would have walked to the lead and kept going.

[Thebigguy]

He would have won easy if you swap him out for the winner, he would have walked to the lead and kept going.

Well thats obvious, a lot of horses would have won with his trip. I think he wins even if the winner runs. And I dont think you can say that about a lot of 3yr olds, in what would have been his 3rd career start.

[Stillriledup]

Well thats obvious, a lot of horses would have won with his trip. I think he wins even if the winner runs. And I dont think you can say that about a lot of 3yr olds, in what would have been his 3rd career start.

I don't know about that. If he battles tooth and nail with Dads Caps, the runner up would have swept them all. I only think he wins that race if he's loose.

[Stillriledup]

8 million for 70%?

How do i get in?

[TheEdge07]

8 million for 70%?

How do i get in?


Liquidation

[Stillriledup]

8 million for 70%?

How do i get in?

I want in! :lol:

[classhandicapper]

He's a very good horse that has been mishandled and also a little unfortunate in his trips in the last few. IMO they should freshen him, start over in an ALW race to get him another win, and then go from there.

[Robert Goren]

He's a very good horse that has been mishandled and also a little unfortunate in his trips in the last few. IMO they should freshen him, start over in an ALW race to get him another win, and then go from there. A very good horse would have won yesterday in spite of that. At this point, I am not sure he could win an ALW nw of 2x at a major track. At some point, somebody connected with horse has got to "get real" about what this horse is. I has a feeling he is going to make several appearance in optional claiming race before we see win. The window may have already closed on him to accomplish good things.

[classhandicapper]

A very good horse would have won yesterday in spite of that. At this point, I am not sure he could win an ALW nw of 2x at a major track. At some point, somebody connected with horse has got to "get real" about what this horse is. I has a feeling he is going to make several appearance in optional claiming race before we see win. The window may have already closed on him to accomplish good things.

IMO Bayern ran a huge race. It's not easy to make a wide bid into the teeth of a pace like and continue strongly. The thing I came away with from that race is how well Bayern ran, not that SI disappointed. I already knew SI was being mismanaged. IMO they need to start over and he'll be fine. But I'm not so sure the connections are competent enough to get the best out of this horse, which of course is a shame.

[onefast99]

IMO Bayern ran a huge race. It's not easy to make a wide bid into the teeth of a pace like and continue strongly. The thing I came away with from that race is how well Bayern ran, not that SI disappointed. I already knew SI was being mismanaged. IMO they need to start over and he'll be fine. But I'm not so sure the connections are competent enough to get the best out of this horse, which of course is a shame.
Something strange about the connections an owner or head of a syndicate would make a decision to get him to another trainer asap what are these guys thinking. This group seems to be more concerned with their own well being and not the horses. Terrible management of a very talented horse.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Something strange about the connections an owner or head of a syndicate would make a decision to get him to another trainer asap what are these guys thinking. This group seems to be more concerned with their own well being and not the horses. Terrible management of a very talented horse.

He would probably (read: most definitely) benefit from a new trainer, but maybe it's time to consider that he just isn't as good as you thought.

[classhandicapper]

He would probably (read: most definitely) benefit from a new trainer, but maybe it's time to consider that he just isn't as good as you thought.

It's hard to tell when you throw a horse with just an ALW win into a tough Grade 1 race, then throw him into the Preakness off a good but losing effort and missed training, then decide on the last day between a 7F sprint and 12F marathon as if you can train for either of those contests the same way and get a maximum effort.

[magwell]

Actually he wasn't traveling that good in the stretch and fell apart before he loaded, not good signs......

[onefast99]

He would probably (read: most definitely) benefit from a new trainer, but maybe it's time to consider that he just isn't as good as you thought.
He is very good and has a chance to prove it once the connections figure him out.

[onefast99]

Actually he wasn't traveling that good in the stretch and fell apart before he loaded, not good signs......
He sweated out half the race before entering the gate. All of this points to 3f works. Take the blinkers off they aren't helping one bit, he gets startled rather easily.

[Edward DeVere]

Send the horse a one-way ticket to Fair Hill, MD, c/o H. Graham Motion, Esq.

[onefast99]

Send the horse a one-way ticket to Fair Hill, MD, c/o H. Graham Motion, Esq.
trainer change?

[menifee]

trainer change?

New trainer - Chad Brown

[taxicab]

New trainer - Chad Brown
Interesting.
This sure seems like the right move.
I think SI will be a Graded stakes winner in this barn.
I wonder how long it will take.....

[Mineshaft]

i just dont see all the hoopla with this horse. Won an Allowance race by 10 and everyone thought he was the next Secretariat. I would find an easier spot for the horse.

[1st time lasix]

This horse is a true "head case." Did you see all the sweat and washy foam on this horse at the Haskell. Then he acts up at the gate and stumbles out of there. Reminds me of Quality Road. Talented... but mindless.

[Grits]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree that the horse is mindless. Actually, the opposite. He knows... he doesn't like his job. Therefore, he balks and he's uncomfortable.

[classhandicapper]

It will be interesting to see whether Chad Brown stops on him and starts all over or tries to undo the mess they made of this horse on the fly.

[elhelmete]

I said a couple weeks before the KD that I believed this horse is equally likely to never win a race again as he is to win a Graded stake. I felt like he was on the edge and could fall either way with no "middle ground" so to speak.

I hope a new set of hands might help him off the precipice.

[onefast99]

This horse is a true "head case." Did you see all the sweat and washy foam on this horse at the Haskell. Then he acts up at the gate and stumbles out of there. Reminds me of Quality Road. Talented... but mindless.
Untapable caused all the commotion in the gate when SI reared and dropped Prado. The horse sweats like that in every single race even when he won the allowance over Honor Code he came back to the winners circle and looked as if he had just been hosed off. Brown will get this horse a good foundation or decide he is a one turn miler. Manny thought working him 3f and 4f was the right formula, taking him off Lasix was also something they thought would work in the horses favor. The Kings Bishop is the next race for him.

[BIG49010]

The Kings Bishop is the next race for him.

You've been completely wrong about everything on this horse, I would lay a dollar to 100, Chad Brown won't run this horse in the Kings Bishop. The owner might want to, but that makes no sense after the way he performed on Sunday. He needs to beat up on some other 3 yr olds in an Alw Nw 2 race and get his mojo back.

[Mineshaft]

this horse does not need a stakes race. Either turn him out or find an Allowance race

[Stillriledup]

It looks as if there is a hitch in the sale, the current owners do not want another trainer to take over the horse so they are requesting Manny Azpura continues to train him, stay tuned!

So they didnt sell because they didnt want their trainer to lose the horse...now this.

They might still be able to get a million for the horse if they sell, but a far cry from the 8 mil they (he) turned down.

[letswastemoney]

I still don't understand the criticism over not selling. The guy is rich. He obviously likes owning horses and racing them, so if he sold he'd use that money to look for more horses.

If that's true, what's the point? He already has a talented horse in his stable.

[classhandicapper]

this horse does not need a stakes race. Either turn him out or find an Allowance race

I think turning him out is the correct thing to do if you are a very patient long term thinker, but it's a tough thing to do at this point in the season if he's still sound. An ALW race would be fine also.

IMO this horse needs special attention until he gets comfortable with the paddock, gate, crowds etc... He also need a sensible long term workout plan and race schedule.

[onefast99]

I think turning him out is the correct thing to do if you are a very patient long term thinker, but it's a tough thing to do at this point in the season if he's still sound. An ALW race would be fine also.

IMO this horse needs special attention until he gets comfortable with the paddock, gate, crowds etc... He also need a sensible long term workout plan and race schedule.
Their plan is to get him to relax, Manny didn't do that he got him so charged up that he became nervous and left half his race in the gate before it opened. Working him prior to the Haskell 3f in 33 from the gate isn't going to help either. Chad needs a good plan to let him relax and get a solid foundation into him. In his last 3 races he never got to the lead and found himself in a situation he never wanted to be in based on his front end running style. He faded late in the stretch in the Haskell, Prado stopped asking him because he knew he was out of gas. He will win a big race sooner than later.

[onefast99]

So they didnt sell because they didnt want their trainer to lose the horse...now this.

They might still be able to get a million for the horse if they sell, but a far cry from the 8 mil they (he) turned down.
They aren't selling their horses, they have plenty of babies coming up and at the point they received the offer the previous trainer was doing everything right!

[BIG49010]

(https://twitter.com/DRFWelsch/status/496670580788449282) https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1798497956/WelschTwitter_normal.jpg Mike Welsch @DRFWelsch (https://twitter.com/DRFWelsch) · 12h (https://twitter.com/DRFWelsch/status/496670182593806337)

Social Inclusion "did not come out of Haskell as well as we'd have liked" been sent to Rood and Riddle according to new trainer Chad Brown

[nijinski]

(https://twitter.com/DRFWelsch/status/496670580788449282) https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1798497956/WelschTwitter_normal.jpg Mike Welsch @DRFWelsch (https://twitter.com/DRFWelsch) · 12h (https://twitter.com/DRFWelsch/status/496670182593806337)

Social Inclusion "did not come out of Haskell as well as we'd have liked" been sent to Rood and Riddle according to new trainer Chad Brown

Dr Bramlage to attend to him according to Paulick . Not hearing of any urgency and he's in good hands. Best hopes for him to come out of this Ok !
so hoping it's not serious !

[onefast99]

Dr Bramlage to attend to him according to Paulick . Not hearing of any urgency and he's in good hands. Best hopes for him to come out of this Ok !
so hoping it's not serious !
He will get a little break 3-5 months off and campaign at GP in the winter most likely in late January or February. His injury isn't career ending by any means. Look for a lot of really nice babies coming through the Keeneland sale in September from Rontos Racing! Rest up SI....

[classhandicapper]

Suddenly I get a sense of competence.

[onefast99]

Suddenly I get a sense of competence.
The connections are doing everything right, this horse has a lot of talent.

[chadk66]

I've seen this happen so many times it makes me sick. what a waste of two years of a horses career. :mad:

[letswastemoney]

He will get a little break 3-5 months off and campaign at GP in the winter most likely in late January or February. His injury isn't career ending by any means. Look for a lot of really nice babies coming through the Keeneland sale in September from Rontos Racing! Rest up SI....Speculation, or is that what you actually read? What is the injury?

[Fager Fan]

I've seen this happen so many times it makes me sick. what a waste of two years of a horses career. :mad:

Two years? More like a few months.

[onefast99]

You've been completely wrong about everything on this horse, I would lay a dollar to 100, Chad Brown won't run this horse in the Kings Bishop. The owner might want to, but that makes no sense after the way he performed on Sunday. He needs to beat up on some other 3 yr olds in an Alw Nw 2 race and get his mojo back.
The owner has a facebook page for SI he stated he wanted to go to the Kings Bishop after the Haskell but SI didn't come out of the Haskell too well. He will get the much needed time off an hopefully come back as a better horse!

[onefast99]

Speculation, or is that what you actually read? What is the injury?
Rudd and Riddle is going over him no one knows what the injury is at this point. He won't be racing for a few more months at a minimum.

[Mineshaft]

They havent said much on what is wrong with him. Hopefully by today we will know.

[chadk66]

Two years? More like a few months.he's how old?

[TheEdge07]

he's how old?

Social Inclusion is more sizzle then steak..more frosting then cake..

Prospect...now....suspect..

[BIG49010]

ADG (Ain't Doing Good is vets slang) is probably why he was sent, 6 months off and 4 months to get back in shape, let him eat grass in a paddock and let things settle down. Chad will have him ready about Belmont 2015 for a race.

Chips, bruised cannons, or something worse most likely will be the issue being he has had those front raps since his first start.

[onefast99]

ADG (Ain't Doing Good is vets slang) is probably why he was sent, 6 months off and 4 months to get back in shape, let him eat grass in a paddock and let things settle down. Chad will have him ready about Belmont 2015 for a race.

Chips, bruised cannons, or something worse most likely will be the issue being he has had those front raps since his first start.
Speculation or fact?

[elhelmete]

Personally I believe it's just a story to explain why they legitimately want to simply give him time off.

[onefast99]

Personally I believe it's just a story to explain why they legitimately want to simply give him time off.
The results of the testing at Rood and Riddle will be known next week.

[Fager Fan]

The owner has a facebook page for SI he stated he wanted to go to the Kings Bishop after the Haskell but SI didn't come out of the Haskell too well. He will get the much needed time off an hopefully come back as a better horse!

What's the address? The Facebook page I found for Social Inclusion is apparently run by a fan.

Here's the page I was looking at:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Social-Inclusion/553412771422967

[onefast99]

"The Facebook page I found for Social Inclusion is apparently run by a fan."
An assumption or maybe it is run by Ron Sanchez, I'm sure you know who he is right?

[Fager Fan]

"The Facebook page I found for Social Inclusion is apparently run by a fan."
An assumption or maybe it is run by Ron Sanchez, I'm sure you know who he is right?

Taking this personally, are you?

Is there another FB page or isn't there? The one I linked looks like a fan page. There's no official page notice. As I scrolled through the posts, they all looked like news and photos lifted off of the internet/news. The posts talk of Sanchez in the third person. If you scroll all the way down to the beginning posts, "Social Inclusion" asks people to "like" the pages of all these horses -- Revolutionary, Havana, Hopportunity, Untapable, etc. Glance over there to the left and all of Social Inclusion's "likes" were of horse pages. If there's something on that page that indicates that it's run by Sanchez or anyone else with the stable, I'd welcome you showing me.

[chadk66]

I'm guessing your talking to the owner of said facebook page:D

[onefast99]

Taking this personally, are you?

Is there another FB page or isn't there? The one I linked looks like a fan page. There's no official page notice. As I scrolled through the posts, they all looked like news and photos lifted off of the internet/news. The posts talk of Sanchez in the third person. If you scroll all the way down to the beginning posts, "Social Inclusion" asks people to "like" the pages of all these horses -- Revolutionary, Havana, Hopportunity, Untapable, etc. Glance over there to the left and all of Social Inclusion's "likes" were of horse pages. If there's something on that page that indicates that it's run by Sanchez or anyone else with the stable, I'd welcome you showing me.
I know the owner personally. If you read my previous posts I own the half sister to Social Inclusion. Ron won't admit to posting on Facebook. I'm glad you like SI.

[Fager Fan]

I know the owner personally. If you read my previous posts I own the half sister to Social Inclusion. Ron won't admit to posting on Facebook. I'm glad you like SI.

Has he admitted it to you?

If this is his Facebook page, then he's an odder bird than I thought. Whoever owns it is making other Facebook pages for horses and asking people on the SI page to like the other horse's page. Look at the plea to like Competitive Edge's page on the date that Competitive Edge's Facebook page was put up. I can't imagine that this is Ron Sanchez, it just doesn't make any sense. Unless he's got an inner child that resembles a 14-year-old girl.

[onefast99]

Has he admitted it to you?

If this is his Facebook page, then he's an odder bird than I thought. Whoever owns it is making other Facebook pages for horses and asking people on the SI page to like the other horse's page. Look at the plea to like Competitive Edge's page on the date that Competitive Edge's Facebook page was put up. I can't imagine that this is Ron Sanchez, it just doesn't make any sense. Unless he's got an inner child that resembles a 14-year-old girl.
I never asked him about facebook no reason to it doesn't change anything that has happened to the horse thus far which is the main theme of this thread. I'm glad you are a fan of SI that's whats important!

[Fager Fan]

I never asked him about facebook no reason to it doesn't change anything that has happened to the horse thus far which is the main theme of this thread. I'm glad you are a fan of SI that's whats important!

Why is that important?

You know, this was really simple. You said you were getting info on him from his Facebook page. I was asking for a verification that what was supposedly being reported on the Facebook page was coming from the owner or someone connected to the horse. You could just say that you were mistaken and that it's a fan page. It's not that big of a deal.

[onefast99]

Why is that important?

You know, this was really simple. You said you were getting info on him from his Facebook page. I was asking for a verification that what was supposedly being reported on the Facebook page was coming from the owner or someone connected to the horse. You could just say that you were mistaken and that it's a fan page. It's not that big of a deal.
I have posted a lot of information on this horse, hopefully that has helped you figure out what is going on with him from the date they purportedly received an offer until today. Sometimes things don't go as planned like SI coming out of the Haskell with some issues. Rood and Riddle will release the report to the owner next week and I'm sure it will be posted on this forum. Until then enjoy the great summer racing going on around the country!

[Mineshaft]

I know the owner personally. If you read my previous posts I own the half sister to Social Inclusion. Ron won't admit to posting on Facebook. I'm glad you like SI.




Are you going to sell the half sister to SI or run the horse?

[onefast99]

Are you going to sell the half sister to SI or run the horse?
The half sister is a 7 year old mare she has had 3 foals and is in foal to Bodemeister. She has had 3 fillies 2 out of Senor Swinger and the latest out of Frost Giant.

[onefast99]

SI's health check will be released on Monday. Hopefully he will be fine after a little break.

[onefast99]

R&R until November back in training in December. Chad will have this one ready for a few late winter early spring races at both GP and Keeneland.

[Mineshaft]

Tendon injury

[onefast99]

Tendon injury
Very minor and a lot less serious then the owners originally thought.

[classhandicapper]

Horse name Social Inclusion
Notes
Activity type Workout
Activity date 02-23-2015
Track Palm Meadows
Surface Dirt
Distance 3 Furlongs
Workout type Breezing
Workout time 0:39.00
Track condition Fast

[onefast99]

Horse name Social Inclusion
Notes
Activity type Workout
Activity date 02-23-2015
Track Palm Meadows
Surface Dirt
Distance 3 Furlongs
Workout type Breezing
Workout time 0:39.00
Track condition Fast

On the road to coming back should be mid to late April!

[magwell]

He ran second today at GP 3rd race, was beat by a horse that was just claimed for 30 k......the race was a allowance optional claiming race.........

[Robert Fischer]

He ran second today at GP 3rd race, was beat by a horse that was just claimed for 30 k......the race was a allowance optional claiming race.........

Good effort today, but no 'fireworks'. Wasn't abused. Appeared maybe a little stiff around the turn and a bit flat in the stretch. Could build off of this effort.

Winner stole the race before they had exited the chute, and just kept going FTN (first time Navarro). Uncontested lead in what appeared to be a fast time.

[onefast99]

He ran second today at GP 3rd race, was beat by a horse that was just claimed for 30 k......the race was a allowance optional claiming race.........
Navarro horse who just ran his eyeballs out enough said. SI hit the gate at the start settled in nicely looked like he was going to make a bid leveled out finished far ahead of the third place finisher, excellent prep for the Met Mile 6/6/2015. 1 Mile races tough to comeback in after a 9 month layoff. Lots of upside here. Came back perfect after the race.

[outofthebox]

Navarro horse who just ran his eyeballs out enough said. SI hit the gate at the start settled in nicely looked like he was going to make a bid leveled out finished far ahead of the third place finisher, excellent prep for the Met Mile 6/6/2015. 1 Mile races tough to comeback in after a 9 month layoff. Lots of upside here. Came back perfect after the race.Agree with most of what you said, but i believe only pressure from the owner would make Brown even consider the Met Mile. Just can't believe he would want to put him into the race after training him with kid gloves the whole winter. I hope they put him back in another opt claimer and his third race off a layoff can be a stake somewhere..

[letswastemoney]

Social Inclusion looked like Honor Code when he came back at Gulfstream last year and tried to chase Social Inclusion.

He made a mid-move, but the lone speed was long gone.

[magwell]

Navarro horse who just ran his eyeballs out enough said. SI hit the gate at the start settled in nicely looked like he was going to make a bid leveled out finished far ahead of the third place finisher, excellent prep for the Met Mile 6/6/2015. 1 Mile races tough to comeback in after a 9 month layoff. Lots of upside here. Came back perfect after the race.Yes looked like he pulled up just fine after the race and you couldn't tell which leg had the problem, hope he cooled out good........ he didn't wash out today either ........

[classhandicapper]

excellent prep for the Met Mile 6/6/2015. 1 Mile races tough to comeback in after a 9 month layoff. Lots of upside here. Came back perfect after the race.

I've had high hopes for this horse since the beginning. I was hoping with a different trainer and more focused training he could reach his potential. But I was disappointed in the effort.

I know it was only a prep, but there's no way he can even contend in the Met off a race like that. He'll have to move up a ton.

[onefast99]

I've had high hopes for this horse since the beginning. I was hoping with a different trainer and more focused training he could reach his potential. But I was disappointed in the effort.

I know it was only a prep, but there's no way he can even contend in the Met off a race like that. He'll have to move up a ton.
Big Looie ran a 94 Beyer in 96 degree heat. SI did everything you could ask a horse to do after a 9 month layoff. Hitting the gate cost him a better stalking position.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I've had high hopes for this horse since the beginning. I was hoping with a different trainer and more focused training he could reach his potential. But I was disappointed in the effort.

I know it was only a prep, but there's no way he can even contend in the Met off a race like that. He'll have to move up a ton.

Isn't Bayern running in the Met (current plan)? If so, SI has no chance. Even without Bayern, he has close to no chance.

[Tom]

Perhaps a nice OC 35k/nw1 ?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Perhaps a nice OC 35k/nw1 ?

I think he can beat 35 claimers.

[Relwob Owner]

Hard to remember hearing this as much talk as I have heard on here in the last year for such an unaccomplished, overhyped and disappointing horse.

[Saratoga_Mike]

...he's always sitting on a big race, though

[magwell]

Hard to remember hearing this as much talk as I have heard on here in the last year for such an unaccomplished, overhyped and disappointing horse.Main reason being because it was over this colt last year that two fools met, the one that offered the big money for him and the one that refused..........:)

[onefast99]

Hard to remember hearing this as much talk as I have heard on here in the last year for such an unaccomplished, overhyped and disappointing horse.
You would give your right arm to have one like this in your barn! Black type two Grade 1 third place finishes one Grade 2 third place finish. 9 months off and runs a respectable 88 beyer in a 1 mile race. Yeah you are right he sucks.:rolleyes:

[onefast99]

I think he can beat 35 claimers.
Big Looie ran a 94 beyer. SI 4 lengths back in 96 degree plus heatSI ran an 88 he has a lot of upside and is in very capable hands. You wont see Rontos telling Brown where to race him, Brown calls the shots.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Big Looie ran a 94 beyer. SI 4 lengths back in 96 degree plus heatSI ran an 88 he has a lot of upside and is in very capable hands. You wont see Rontos telling Brown where to race him, Brown calls the shots.

An 88 Beyer wouldn't win a 75k claimer at Saratoga. On the trainer, CB is obviously radically better than the former trainer. Let's see what the horse can do in his next few starts.

[Robert Goren]

An 88 Beyer wouldn't win a 75k claimer at Saratoga. On the trainer, CB is obviously radically better than the former trainer. Let's see what the horse can do in his next few starts.At one point, they thought he would 20 pts higher or 108. It pretty clear he is not the horse they thought he was.

[Tom]

I think he can beat 35 claimers.

Didn't he just lose to one?

[Relwob Owner]

You would give your right arm to have one like this in your barn! Black type two Grade 1 third place finishes one Grade 2 third place finish. 9 months off and runs a respectable 88 beyer in a 1 mile race. Yeah you are right he sucks.:rolleyes:

My comments were based relative to the amount of hype, mainly from you, involved with the horse. You wouldn't consider him to be disappointing at this stage of his career?

I never mentioned whether I would want him in my barn or not. If I did own him, I wouldn't expect too much success in the races you are discussing(Met Mile????) but think he could win an optional claimer. Time will tell I guess.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Didn't he just lose to one?

maybe he could beat a NY-bred 35k claimer?

[cj]

This is a talented horse that needs better management. He'd be deadly in 6-7F sprints. He won one route race setting a crazy slow pace and they think he is Forego. His one sprint since his maiden win was a brutal trip behind Bayern where he ran much better than looked.

[Stillriledup]

This is a talented horse that needs better management. He'd be deadly in 6-7F sprints. He won one route race setting a crazy slow pace and they think he is Forego. His one sprint since his maiden win was a brutal trip behind Bayern where he ran much better than looked.

They shoulda sold him off his trumped up 1 path win at Gulfstream for a "princely sum". We all knew to sell "high" but them. Funny how life works.

[Saratoga_Mike]

This is a talented horse that needs better management. He'd be deadly in 6-7F sprints. He won one route race setting a crazy slow pace and they think he is Forego. His one sprint since his maiden win was a brutal trip behind Bayern where he ran much better than looked.

Bayern ran his eyeballs out in the Woody Stephens. Hell, it may be his best distance. At 7 furs, I'd take Bayern over SI all day long. SI showed tons of potential in his first few starts. But many horses that are managed so poorly early in their career never recover from it. Time will tell.

[Tom]

maybe he could beat a NY-bred 35k claimer?

Maybe I could, too! :lol:

[cj]

Bayern ran his eyeballs out in the Woody Stephens. Hell, it may be his best distance. At 7 furs, I'd take Bayern over SI all day long. SI showed tons of potential in his first few starts. But many horses that are managed so poorly early in their career never recover from it. Time will tell.

Well sure, but lots of top classes horses can beat the best sprinters at 7f. Tough to say what will come of SI after Saturday, he didn't look very good at all to me.

[onefast99]

They shoulda sold him off his trumped up 1 path win at Gulfstream for a "princely sum". We all knew to sell "high" but them. Funny how life works.
If indeed there was a huge offer it probably came with plenty of strings attached. One good thing has happened to this horse Manny isn't the trainer anymore and he isn't working 3f in 33 flat! Let Brown have his way with him if the horse is 90% of what he was last year he will find the winners circle a lot.

[onefast99]

Well sure, but lots of top classes horses can beat the best sprinters at 7f. Tough to say what will come of SI after Saturday, he didn't look very good at all to me.
What didn't look good from watching it on TVG? Hitting the gate and having Lezcano change his race tactics 100 yards into the race? He came back fine according to the connections.

[letswastemoney]

What didn't look good from watching it on TVG? Hitting the gate and having Lezcano change his race tactics 100 yards into the race? He came back fine according to the connections. I hope in future races, they let Social Inclusion roll on the lead.

His last good race was the Wood Memorial, where he had the lead on the far turn and was just a little cooked by the pace. He didn't lose by much.

Ever since then with the stalking position in the Preakness, Woody Stephens (well, Bayern was too fast to reach the lead) and Haskell, and last weekend, he has made a move without the lead on the far turn and stalled in the stretch.

This is a need-the-lead Game On Dude type horse to me.

[Robert Fischer]

I can't make a decisive call from that comeback race.

Social Inclusion didn't flash any brilliance(his only previous redeeming quality), and he also seemed a bit stiff around the turn and flat in the lane.

I know that the winner ran a big race, from an advantageous tactical position, and that Social Inclusion would have had to run a Grade I race to win that race. I simply didn't see anything more than a 'solid' effort.

Had I simply watched the race with no other info, I would have said " 'B'-horse for Chad Brown, he didn't run that bad vs. runaway speed, good contender to hit the board at a reasonable class level next time"

I don't have any information regarding his entry that day, but he was entered in a race after the good part of the meet. May or may not be meaningful.

He could come back and contend in a Grade2 level race and it would not surprise me.
He looks like he should be racing against allowance or allowance optional claiming horses.

[cj]

What didn't look good from watching it on TVG? Hitting the gate and having Lezcano change his race tactics 100 yards into the race? He came back fine according to the connections.

I just didn't really care for his action. It wasn't a super fast race or anything. This is a horse that won first out, so he can win off the bench for sure. He just doesn't look like the same horse to me. I want no parts of him any time soon at what will be a price that is too short. If he beats me, so be it.

[onefast99]

I just didn't really care for his action. It wasn't a super fast race or anything. This is a horse that won first out, so he can win off the bench for sure. He just doesn't look like the same horse to me. I want no parts of him any time soon at what will be a price that is too short. If he beats me, so be it.
109:2 for the 6f is a fast race. The Tarpon for 3 y/o's was run in 110:2 on Saturday with similiar track variants of 17.

[cj]

109:2 for the 6f is a fast race. The Tarpon for 3 y/o's was run in 110:2 on Saturday with similiar track variants of 17.

Different days, different distances. The mile races at Gulfstream are very hard to compare to other distances unless you have a lot of experience with that track. I'll post the figures for both when I finish if interested.

[onefast99]

I hope in future races, they let Social Inclusion roll on the lead.

His last good race was the Wood Memorial, where he had the lead on the far turn and was just a little cooked by the pace. He didn't lose by much.

Ever since then with the stalking position in the Preakness, Woody Stephens (well, Bayern was too fast to reach the lead) and Haskell, and last weekend, he has made a move without the lead on the far turn and stalled in the stretch.

This is a need-the-lead Game On Dude type horse to me.
Hitting the gate caused Lezcano to alter his race tactics.

[onefast99]

Different days, different distances. The mile races at Gulfstream are very hard to compare to other distances unless you have a lot of experience with that track. I'll post the figures for both when I finish if interested.
Tarpon and SI's race were both 1 mile races.

[cj]

Tarpon and SI's race were both 1 mile races.

OK, gotcha, still two different days. Should be interesting.

[Stillriledup]

Stupid people usually find ways to turn lots of millions into a pile of lint.

[onefast99]

How do you know they needed the $? That's the one question no one can ever answer....

[letswastemoney]

Stupid people usually find ways to turn lots of millions into a pile of lint.Money can't replace the experience of entering a horse in a Triple Crown race or other stakes races. Why is everyone so obsessed over the fact they turned down money?

What is he going to do? Use that money to buy more horses?

[letswastemoney]

I'm still a fan, but his race last weekend wasn't good.

I don't understand why they persist with these rating tactics, on a horse that clearly works best if he receives a Game On Dude-type scenario on the lead.

[classhandicapper]

He seems to have gone backwards from last year despite being given a lot of time and being placed in ultra competent hands. That's a little surprising to me. I had no idea if he would fulfil my initial optimism. I thought he was even good in the Wood. I was not expecting a regression.

[Stillriledup]

Money can't replace the experience of entering a horse in a Triple Crown race or other stakes races. Why is everyone so obsessed over the fact they turned down money?

What is he going to do? Use that money to buy more horses?

It comes down to this. If you dont sell high and buy low, you get extinct real fast. Do you know how many owners in this game have come and gone because they either ran out of money or lost too much money to justify the hobby? A lot. Those lots of people might still be around if they sold high, they could buy more horses and stay in the sport.

This is not what got these people to pass on this investment, i believe i read they wanted to keep the current trainer, so they passed on selling a majority share of the horse due to 'loyalty' and where did that get them? Nowhere because they switched trainers anyway.