Harness Racing: Interview with David Siegel

[pandy]

http://www.drf.com/news/bob-pandolfo-david-siegel-shares-his-thoughts-harness-racing

[LottaKash]

As always Bob, another fine piece....I really enjoyed it ....:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Dave Siegal is quite an interesting and busy person, to say the least....

And, I would bet on any of his drives too, if they fit my handicapping picture....

He must be well off tho, as I really don't understand why he is isn't a paid pro-driver....I mean the amateur status thing is ok and all, but me, I would rather have the kash for my efforts....I'll bet the owners like that tho...:D

And Dave, if you are listening, keep up the fine work at Trackmaster...:ThmbUp:

[pandy]

Thank you.

[Just a Fan]

It was a good article, and I pretty much agree with everything he says. I wish they would change the name of the kicking violation, because it sounds a lot more violent than it really is, and I think some people get all bent out of shape about it without really understanding what it is. I'm actually not so sure why its illegal, I don't see it as a safety issue, and it isn't anything that puts the horse in any kind of pain. Its just another way to impel the horse to go.

Siegel oughta turn pro just to be able to cover all the fines that the stewards give him. They watch him like a hawk for whatever reason.

[David Siegel]

I just checked into the forum and saw thread about me. So, let me comment on a few of the items mentioned. First, on becoming a "pro", I am seriously considering it for the fall. I "left" about $15,000 "on the table" in 2013 and that would have been nice to have. I have stayed an amateur so I could take advantage of the amateur driving opportunities both home and abroad, but this has changed as I am really the only amateur left in California, so our series and East-West Challenges are gone, as is the Pro-Am we did at Pompano the last two years. I also thought that when I started, it helped me on the margin get drives. But now, these reasons have dried up and the only real reason to stay amateur is to driver in international competitions. They are a ton of fun and you get to meet great people. But if I did one every two years, it would be akin to paying $20,000 (in foregone after tax income) to do this, and that is way too expensive. I have not decided for sure, but it is under serious consideration.

About "kicking", one really cannot generalize. If you make contact with a horse's hock (knee in back) straight on, you could break it and cause great pain. On the other end of the spectrum, if you brushed the outside of the leg (like our thigh), it is no big deal. I have little doubt that a brush with the foot is less bothersome to a horse than a 1-hander with the whip. But since it is impossible to really judge the difference for a judge, I think there should be NO CONTACT allowed with the foot or any other part of the body. Add to that the bad perception that kicking brings about, and there is good reason not to allow it. Similarly whipping is a big perception problem as it can look abusive, even if it is not. I think I am in a minority here as I would frankly totally ban whipping, but not the use of the whip as an extension of the drivers' arms. You need the whip as a basic communications device. But I think that only hand and wrist action is needed to communicate and to me, so what if times slow down by 1/5th of a second. Whipping looks horrible, especially to the 99% of the people that don't know racing and perception can drive waves against racing, so why do it? The only time whipping is needed frankly is when a horse rears up and you have to smack it to "go on", and it could save his life and the drivers too. This is big picture thinking here as we are being watched by outside groups - so why not avoid a major problem before it comes one.

Think that does it for now. I welcome constructive comments, even if you don't agree with me (which is what this Forum pretty much always has).

[pandy]

On the kicking, Jeff Gural has been quoted as saying that he told the drivers that if anyone kicks a horse at the Meadowlands they'll never drive there again. That's the best way to stop it. It looks bad to the public, and it shouldn't be allowed, period.

[wiffleball whizz]

I just checked into the forum and saw thread about me. So, let me comment on a few of the items mentioned. First, on becoming a "pro", I am seriously considering it for the fall. I "left" about $15,000 "on the table" in 2013 and that would have been nice to have. I have stayed an amateur so I could take advantage of the amateur driving opportunities both home and abroad, but this has changed as I am really the only amateur left in California, so our series and East-West Challenges are gone, as is the Pro-Am we did at Pompano the last two years. I also thought that when I started, it helped me on the margin get drives. But now, these reasons have dried up and the only real reason to stay amateur is to driver in international competitions. They are a ton of fun and you get to meet great people. But if I did one every two years, it would be akin to paying $20,000 (in foregone after tax income) to do this, and that is way too expensive. I have not decided for sure, but it is under serious consideration.

About "kicking", one really cannot generalize. If you make contact with a horse's hock (knee in back) straight on, you could break it and cause great pain. On the other end of the spectrum, if you brushed the outside of the leg (like our thigh), it is no big deal. I have little doubt that a brush with the foot is less bothersome to a horse than a 1-hander with the whip. But since it is impossible to really judge the difference for a judge, I think there should be NO CONTACT allowed with the foot or any other part of the body. Add to that the bad perception that kicking brings about, and there is good reason not to allow it. Similarly whipping is a big perception problem as it can look abusive, even if it is not. I think I am in a minority here as I would frankly totally ban whipping, but not the use of the whip as an extension of the drivers' arms. You need the whip as a basic communications device. But I think that only hand and wrist action is needed to communicate and to me, so what if times slow down by 1/5th of a second. Whipping looks horrible, especially to the 99% of the people that don't know racing and perception can drive waves against racing, so why do it? The only time whipping is needed frankly is when a horse rears up and you have to smack it to "go on", and it could save his life and the drivers too. This is big picture thinking here as we are being watched by outside groups - so why not avoid a major problem before it comes one.

Think that does it for now. I welcome constructive comments, even if you don't agree with me (which is what this Forum pretty much always has).

Hey dave remember last year when I started that thread the night cal expo ****ed you out of that photo?............well a year later I still think they ****ed you outta that photo....

You remember when that horse came charging on the far far outside :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

I just checked into the forum and saw thread about me. So, let me comment on a few of the items mentioned. First, on becoming a "pro", I am seriously considering it for the fall. I "left" about $15,000 "on the table" in 2013 and that would have been nice to have. I have stayed an amateur so I could take advantage of the amateur driving opportunities both home and abroad, but this has changed as I am really the only amateur left in California, so our series and East-West Challenges are gone, as is the Pro-Am we did at Pompano the last two years. I also thought that when I started, it helped me on the margin get drives. But now, these reasons have dried up and the only real reason to stay amateur is to driver in international competitions. They are a ton of fun and you get to meet great people. But if I did one every two years, it would be akin to paying $20,000 (in foregone after tax income) to do this, and that is way too expensive. I have not decided for sure, but it is under serious consideration.

About "kicking", one really cannot generalize. If you make contact with a horse's hock (knee in back) straight on, you could break it and cause great pain. On the other end of the spectrum, if you brushed the outside of the leg (like our thigh), it is no big deal. I have little doubt that a brush with the foot is less bothersome to a horse than a 1-hander with the whip. But since it is impossible to really judge the difference for a judge, I think there should be NO CONTACT allowed with the foot or any other part of the body. Add to that the bad perception that kicking brings about, and there is good reason not to allow it. Similarly whipping is a big perception problem as it can look abusive, even if it is not. I think I am in a minority here as I would frankly totally ban whipping, but not the use of the whip as an extension of the drivers' arms. You need the whip as a basic communications device. But I think that only hand and wrist action is needed to communicate and to me, so what if times slow down by 1/5th of a second. Whipping looks horrible, especially to the 99% of the people that don't know racing and perception can drive waves against racing, so why do it? The only time whipping is needed frankly is when a horse rears up and you have to smack it to "go on", and it could save his life and the drivers too. This is big picture thinking here as we are being watched by outside groups - so why not avoid a major problem before it comes one.

Think that does it for now. I welcome constructive comments, even if you don't agree with me (which is what this Forum pretty much always has).
On kicking....I don't see how a boot in the rear is going to do all that much.
I thought at one time there was a rule that required drivers to keep their feet in the stirrups once the Starter called the horses to the gate.
Whipping...Most drivers appear to hit the shaft of the bike or the wheel disc.
On occasion, I see a driver really tear into the hide of the horses's rear. That should not be permitted.
Whip taps across the rear quarters and the shoulder of the front quarter ...BY all means

[pandy]

Kicking is against the USTA rules. What happens is, drivers kick the horses and they are fined by the judges. But, the fines are usually pretty modest, $100 or so. Gural's approach is the right one, no fines needed. If you kick, you don't drive at the Meadowlands.

As for whipping, I don't think having drivers slashing a horse with a whip looks good to the public. It's true that they are often hitting the shaft, but it still looks like the horse is getting a beating.

I believe that the USTA did not approve a rule proposal that would require drivers to have both hands in the reins when whipping. They do have specific rules regarding whipping violations, such as whipping the under side of a horse. But the whipping rules and fines vary from track to track depending on the judges.

In thoroughbred racing, horses are often whipped hard and excessively. Every day I see horses that are obviously going to win easily, and the rider hasn't used the whip yet, then once the horse has already put the field away the jockey needlessly hits the horse several times. It doesn't make sense.

[thespaah]

Kicking is against the USTA rules. What happens is, drivers kick the horses and they are fined by the judges. But, the fines are usually pretty modest, $100 or so. Gural's approach is the right one, no fines needed. If you kick, you don't drive at the Meadowlands.

As for whipping, I don't think having drivers slashing a horse with a whip looks good to the public. It's true that they are often hitting the shaft, but it still looks like the horse is getting a beating.

I believe that the USTA did not approve a rule proposal that would require drivers to have both hands in the reins when whipping. They do have specific rules regarding whipping violations, such as whipping the under side of a horse. But the whipping rules and fines vary from track to track depending on the judges.

In thoroughbred racing, horses are often whipped hard and excessively. Every day I see horses that are obviously going to win easily, and the rider hasn't used the whip yet, then once the horse has already put the field away the jockey needlessly hits the horse several times. It doesn't make sense.
I read my post...And I wanted to clarify.
The kicking comment should have read " all that much good"...
I am all for requiring the driver to keep his feet in the stirrups throughout the contest. Kicking just is not necessary.
On the whipping, I would like to think that if the public gets an education on how whipping is done, then they would understand most of the time the driver is not hitting the horse.
That is, if they pay attention