PDA

View Full Version : Administration nullifies individual mandate


Clocker
03-12-2014, 07:24 PM
Hidden deep within the ACA as passed was language that allowed an exemption from the individual mandate in the case of extreme hardship. Last week, the administration issued a rule saying that an exemption will be granted to anyone that suffers a hardship as a result of ObamaCare. That includes those that had their polity canceled, and anyone that believes that buying insurance on the exchange would be a hardship. No proof is needed, you just sign a form.

WSJ article: (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304250204579433312607325596?mg=ren o64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1000 1424052702304250204579433312607325596.html)

But amid the post-rollout political backlash, last week the agency created a new category: Now all you need to do is fill out a form attesting that your plan was cancelled and that you "believe that the plan options available in the [ObamaCare] Marketplace in your area are more expensive than your cancelled health insurance policy" or "you consider other available policies unaffordable."

This lax standard—no formula or hard test beyond a person's belief—at least ostensibly requires proof such as an insurer termination notice. But people can also qualify for hardships for the unspecified nonreason that "you experienced another hardship in obtaining health insurance," which only requires "documentation if possible." And yet another waiver is available to those who say they are merely unable to afford coverage, regardless of their prior insurance. In a word, these shifting legal benchmarks offer an exemption to everyone who conceivably wants one.



This is the mandate that the White House argued was vital to ObamaCare, and that the program was not sustainable without it.

ArlJim78
03-12-2014, 08:53 PM
they shut down the government over the IM, all the GOP asked for was a mere one year delay. now its gone with the wind just like that.

Clocker
03-12-2014, 09:09 PM
they shut down the government over the IM, all the GOP asked for was a mere one year delay. now its gone with the wind just like that.

Not gone with the wind, gone until Obama is in the wind.

This will put off a lot of the voter frustration, certainly until after 2014, and possibly until after 2016. And it will put off the economic collapse of the program for the next president to deal with.

Without the individual mandate or the employer mandate for the foreseeable future, the insurance companies will be bleeding money without the premiums from the young and healthy to subsidize benefits paid out. These loses will have to be covered by rate hikes and by bail outs from the ObamaCare risk corridors. Those won't turn into full blown train wrecks for another year or two, when Obama is concentrating all his time and energy on plans for the Obama Presidential Library and Memorial Golf Course.

mostpost
03-12-2014, 10:38 PM
Hidden deep within the ACA as passed was language that allowed an exemption from the individual mandate in the case of extreme hardship. Last week, the administration issued a rule saying that an exemption will be granted to anyone that suffers a hardship as a result of ObamaCare. That includes those that had their polity canceled, and anyone that believes that buying insurance on the exchange would be a hardship. No proof is needed, you just sign a form.

WSJ article: (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304250204579433312607325596?mg=ren o64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1000 1424052702304250204579433312607325596.html)



This is the mandate that the White House argued was vital to ObamaCare, and that the program was not sustainable without it.
Someone is stupid here. Is it me who is wondering what the benefit is to lying about whether you can replace your old plan with an affordable one? Yes, you end up not having to pay for health insurance. You also end up without health insurance.

Perhaps you are the stupid one. You think that this exception nullifies the individual mandate. With some exceptions for low income persons the individual mandate applies to 255,000,000 persons who are now covered by insurance and 45,000,000 who are uninsured. I have seen a figure of 6,000,000 cancellation notices having been sent out. I seriously question the accuracy of that figure, but I will use it anyway.

If every single person whose insurance was cancelled uses the hardship exemption form, 2% of all persons will be exempt from the mandate. 98% will be bound by it. Hardly a nullification.

I figured this out in a few seconds. You won't understand it even after I have explained it. No question in my mind who the not stupid one is.

sammy the sage
03-12-2014, 10:44 PM
I think the it's THE 45 million w/out insurance CAN NOW claim hardship...and just WHO is stupid here... :lol: :rolleyes: :faint:

Clocker
03-12-2014, 11:07 PM
I think the it's THE 45 million w/out insurance CAN NOW claim hardship...and just WHO is stupid here... :lol: :rolleyes: :faint:

Correct. They don't have to buy insurance and they don't have to pay the penalty.

And if they get sick, they can go to an ER or they can buy a policy that has to cover pre-existing conditions or they can go on Medicaid.

cj's dad
03-12-2014, 11:13 PM
I think the it's THE 45 million w/out insurance CAN NOW claim hardship...and just WHO is stupid here... :lol: :rolleyes: :faint:

Constant use of the word "STUPID" here and elsewhere by the retired mailman (mostpost), a government trained employee and lackey of the system. Classy guy, isn't he !! If you or anyone does not agree with him you/we are stupid.

Clocker
03-12-2014, 11:18 PM
You think that this exception nullifies the individual mandate.

Nullify means it is no longer effective. Under the new rules, anyone that does not want to pay for insurance and does not want to pay the penalty, can be granted an exemption without proof of hardship. If everyone can get an exemption, then it really isn't a mandate, is it. That's what nullified means: "to cause (something) to lose its value or to have no effect".

mostpost
03-13-2014, 01:49 AM
I think the it's THE 45 million w/out insurance CAN NOW claim hardship...and just WHO is stupid here... :lol: :rolleyes: :faint:No, that is wrong. You are wrong.
Here is a link to the CMS regulations and guidance.
http://www.cms.gov/CCIIO/Resources/Regulations-and-Guidance/Downloads/cancellation-consumer-options-12-19-2013.pdf

Here is what it says.
If your health insurance policy has been cancelled, a number of options are already available to
you:
• You have the chance to buy any of your health insurance issuer’s individual market
policies available to you in 2014.
• You may shop for coverage through the Health Insurance Marketplace (the Marketplace).
Depending on your income and other factors, you may be eligible to receive a premium
tax credit that will help cover the cost of purchasing coverage through the Marketplace or
cost-sharing reductions for Marketplace coverage. You may also be eligible for
Medicaid.
• You can also shop for policies outside the Marketplace. This is a good option if you do
not qualify for premium tax credits or cost-sharing reductions based on your income. If
you do qualify for premium tax credits or cost-sharing reductions, you can only get such
assistance if you enroll through the Marketplace.

If you have been notified that your policy will not be renewed, you will be eligible for a hardship
exemption and will be able to enroll in catastrophic coverage. If you believe that the plan options
available in the Marketplace in your area are more expensive than your cancelled health
insurance policy, you will be eligible for catastrophic coverage if it is available in your area. In order to purchase this catastrophic coverage, you need to complete a hardship exemption form,
and indicate that your current health insurance policy is being cancelled and you consider other available policies unaffordable

It clearly says "If your health insurance policy has been cancelled" and If you have been notified that your policy will not be renewed." The 45,000,000 people who are without insurance can not have their policy cancelled. You can't cancel something that doesn't exist.

Clocker
03-13-2014, 02:01 AM
No, that is wrong. You are wrong.

It clearly says "If your health insurance policy has been cancelled" and If you have been notified that your policy will not be renewed." The 45,000,000 people who are without insurance can not have their policy cancelled. You can't cancel something that doesn't exist.

From the WSJ link in the OP:

And yet another waiver is available to those who say they are merely unable to afford coverage, regardless of their prior insurance.

mostpost
03-13-2014, 02:29 AM
Let's talk about this stupid thing.
JustRalph posts example after example of people who are supposedly harmed by Obamacare. But we find out that all or most of those examples are flawed. One lady (Julie Boonstra) supposedly lost her doctor, but in reality she is seeing the same doctor. Another (Helen DiPrima) supposedly will have to pay $10,000 to supplement her Medicare coverage, but a cursory search of the Medicare website shows she can get part B and part D for one fourth that amount.

Several of his stories involve people who took the word of their insurance company and never checked the health care exchanges either because they were too lazy or they had a moral objection to Obamacare.

I was able to debunk these stories with not a lot of effort. But JustRalph and anyone else who posted or believed those stories never bothered to do the least little bit of work.
Constant posting of stories that are invariably proven false and a refusal to accept that proof can only be described with one word.

Clocker started this thread with the statement that the individual mandate has been nulllified. He was wrong in so many ways. The hardship exemption-without proof-only applies to persons whose insurance has been cancelled.
It does not apply to anyone who has insurance which remains in effect. It does not apply to anyone who has no insurance. This is clear from reading the rule. Yet Clocker continues to insist this all applies to everyone.

Clocker has also refused to explain why he thinks any sensible person would choose to not have insurance if it is available and affordable.

Almost every thing Clocker posts tells me he is either "That word" or one of those people who thinks he is oh so clever and can win any argument by twisting others words and ignoring inconvenient facts.

Then we have the Blue Shoes, the fasts, and others who constantly call me and others Bolsheviks, Commies, Socialists and Marxist. We have Tom who calls the President of the United States a POS. And who has the nerve to call some one else a fat pig.

mostpost
03-13-2014, 02:33 AM
From the WSJ link in the OP:
The whole point is that you think that everyone is going to game the system. That everyone is going to lie about their income or the availability of affordable insurance. To what end? So that they can be without insurance if a catastrophe strikes? Or even if they have to spend a few hundred dollars on care for themselves or their families.

And people wonder why I use "That word" to describe your thinking processes.

Clocker
03-13-2014, 03:34 AM
The hardship exemption-without proof-only applies to persons whose insurance has been cancelled.
It does not apply to anyone who has insurance which remains in effect. It does not apply to anyone who has no insurance.

From the WSJ as linked:

This lax standard—no formula or hard test beyond a person's belief—at least ostensibly requires proof such as an insurer termination notice. But people can also qualify for hardships for the unspecified nonreason that "you experienced another hardship in obtaining health insurance," which only requires "documentation if possible." And yet another waiver is available to those who say they are merely unable to afford coverage, regardless of their prior insurance. In a word, these shifting legal benchmarks offer an exemption to everyone who conceivably wants one.

mostpost
03-13-2014, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by mostpost
The hardship exemption-without proof-only applies to persons whose insurance has been cancelled.
It does not apply to anyone who has insurance which remains in effect. It does not apply to anyone who has no insurance.


From the WSJ as linked:

Quote:
This lax standard—no formula or hard test beyond a person's belief—at least ostensibly requires proof such as an insurer termination notice. But people can also qualify for hardships for the unspecified nonreason that "you experienced another hardship in obtaining health insurance," which only requires "documentation if possible." And yet another waiver is available to those who say they are merely unable to afford coverage, regardless of their prior insurance. In a word, these shifting legal benchmarks offer an exemption to everyone who conceivably wants one.

http://marketplace.cms.gov/getofficialresources/publications-and-articles/hardship-exemption.pdf
The link above is to the Hardship exemption form provided by CMS. It lists fourteen reasons for an exemption. Eleven of them require documentation.

The most important point is in the last sentence of your quote from WSJ above. " In a word, these shifting legal benchmarks offer an exemption to everyone who conceivably wants one."
You and the Wall Street Journal think that no one wants insurance and everyone will try to use these exemptions. The fact is that almost everyone wants good, affordable insurance and the hardship exemption-of whichever variety-will only by used by those who must use it.

Clocker
03-13-2014, 02:37 PM
You and the Wall Street Journal think that no one wants insurance and everyone will try to use these exemptions. The fact is that almost everyone wants good, affordable insurance and the hardship exemption-of whichever variety-will only by used by those who must use it.

Please don't presume to tell me what I think. My point from the beginning was that under new rules, anyone that wants a hardship exemption can get one. Which you now admit. My point also is that the change is purely political, a reality you refuse to admit.

There can be no doubt that some people will take advantage of that exemption. The question is how many. And there can be no doubt that the more people that opt for the exemption, the bigger the train wreck of ObamaCare.

Tom
03-13-2014, 03:15 PM
We have Tom who calls the President of the United States a POS. And who has the nerve to call some one else a fat pig.

He is.
She is.

I have some more....wanna hear 'em?
I direct you to the First Amendment.
It has been allowing that for over 400 years now! :lol:

PaceAdvantage
03-13-2014, 03:22 PM
Mostpost,

Calling a public figure (like Obama, or Mrs. Obama, or Rush Limbaugh, or Sarah Palin, or Chris Christie) a name on this forum is FAR DIFFERENT than calling fellow users names.

Sometimes it gets so out of control in both directions, I throw up my hands.

Each one of us though, has the ability to edit ourselves. And this should be the bare minimum of edits...no name calling towards other members.

HUSKER55
03-13-2014, 08:54 PM
If that means no more name calling then the libs are going to cry foul!


you nasty man you! :D

( that was edited by the way) :lol:

PaceAdvantage
03-14-2014, 02:32 AM
Both sides have done plenty of name calling through the years here (of both public figures AND fellow members of this board). After a while, you kind of throw up your hands as a moderator.

Tom
03-14-2014, 11:23 PM
President Obama said he is sorry that some Americans have lost their existing health coverage due to Obamacare. I think he's getting a little desperate. Today he said if you like your complete lack of coverage, you can keep your complete lack of coverage.

Clocker
03-14-2014, 11:43 PM
President Obama said he is sorry that some Americans have lost their existing health coverage due to Obamacare. I think he's getting a little desperate. Today he said if you like your complete lack of coverage, you can keep your complete lack of coverage.

Last night I saw upon the stair,
A little man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today.
Oh, how I wish he'd go away.



Barack Obama is a little man.

Enough said.

incoming
03-15-2014, 12:07 AM
they shut down the government over the IM, all the GOP asked for was a mere one year delay. now its gone with the wind just like that.

The stupid party tried to give the president a "face saving" gesture. Every one knew this day was coming except the administration, media and the low information population. It was even in the bill for gods sake.(thanks clocker) Of course, the stupid party got the blame for shutting down the government. God, please help us all.