50 years ago today

[Marshall Bennett]

Muhammad Ali "Shook up the World". :cool:

[cj's dad]

Muhammad Ali "Shook up the World". :cool:

Big deal- he beat an overrated puncher/jailbird who had never seen a boxer with his speed and boxing skills. Ali was ahead of his time. He was vastly overrated as time would prove, see this post a few weeks ago:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1585559#post1585559

[PhantomOnTour]

Those of you who alive at the time and remember the fight...

do you think it was fixed?
I hear it all the time about this fight - Liston simply didn't answer the bell.
Done.

[kingfin66]

Big deal- he beat an overrated puncher/jailbird who had never seen a boxer with his speed and boxing skills. Ali was ahead of his time. He was vastly overrated as time would prove, see this post a few weeks ago:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1585559#post1585559

Why did you change your user name Chet?

[Steve 'StatMan']

I saw clips from that fight for the first time in a very long time, maybe the first time in my adult life. Saw how Liston looked in the corner, his one eye looked completely shut and I didn't think his 'good eye' looked all that keen either. I didn't know how the fight ended - and was thinking when seeing that clip that he shouldn't come out - which indeed he didn't.

Hey, if it was fixed, then Liston took a mighty nasty beating that he wouldn't have had to. No, I've never thought it was fixed.

[cj's dad]

Those of you who alive at the time and remember the fight...

do you think it was fixed?
I hear it all the time about this fight - Liston simply didn't answer the bell.
Done.

No way of knowing that - I do think the rematch in Lewiston Maine as investigated by the FBI was in fact rigged. Link here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston

Liston was not a money maker, Ali was. He was a very charismatic person that would sell tickets in the arenas and on pay-per-view. He generated a lot of income for the mob. He is now broke and living off of gov't assistance.

The Greatest Of All Time ?? Hardly !!

[PhantomOnTour]

They had pay-per-view back then ??

[dav4463]

I think they did "closed circuit" then which was kind of like pay per view except it was shown in theaters and maybe bars.....isn't that right?

[LottaKash]

I think they did "closed circuit" then which was kind of like pay per view except it was shown in theaters and maybe bars.....isn't that right?

That is right, and I had been to one, when I could afford it....Otherwise it was on the radio for most of the other fights..

[PhantomOnTour]

I think they did "closed circuit" then which was kind of like pay per view except it was shown in theaters and maybe bars.....isn't that right?
Had no clue - thanks for the info.
Watching a fight in a theater sounds fun actually.

[Stillriledup]

I saw clips from that fight for the first time in a very long time, maybe the first time in my adult life. Saw how Liston looked in the corner, his one eye looked completely shut and I didn't think his 'good eye' looked all that keen either. I didn't know how the fight ended - and was thinking when seeing that clip that he shouldn't come out - which indeed he didn't.

Hey, if it was fixed, then Liston took a mighty nasty beating that he wouldn't have had to. No, I've never thought it was fixed.

Liston had to take the beating to make it look good. ;)

[LottaKash]

Had no clue - thanks for the info.
Watching a fight in a theater sounds fun actually.

But, by today's broadcast standards, it definitely wasn't High-Def.....As in retrospect, it was murky..

Still, we didn't know what we were missing at the time...:D ..and enjoyed it all the same...:cool:

[cj's dad]

Yes POT, pay-per-view was actually closed circuit broadcasts; my poor choice of words. I watched most fights at the Baltimore Civic Center (then home of the Baltimore Bullets) now known as the Civic Arena.

FWIW, I dont think that fight was fixed. Some may remember that Clay got linament of some sort in his eyes from Liston;s shoulder and almost didn't come out for, I think, round 4. Angie pushed him out there and told him to keep away from Liston until the junk in his eye wore off.

[Robert Goren]

In the replay I saw, it looked like neither fighter wanted to answer the bell. Clay noticed that Liston was coming out either and then answered. I think Liston was a lot better fighter than he gets credit for. He was past his prime by the time he won the title.

[kingfin66]

Thanks for the PM. I had no idea!

[pandy]

Big deal- he beat an overrated puncher/jailbird who had never seen a boxer with his speed and boxing skills. Ali was ahead of his time. He was vastly overrated as time would prove, see this post a few weeks ago:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1585559#post1585559

He certainly was not overrated, as I'm sure anyone who stood in the ring with him would attest to. When he knocked out Foreman, Foreman was a big betting favorite, he looked invincible, but Ali shredded him.

I see someone said that Ruth was overrated. Yeah right. Ruth hit more home runs in one season than all of the players in the league combined. He was a freak.

[MutuelClerk]

Ali was not overrated. Especially when he was Clay. His jab would slice your face and he had enough power to take you out. He was suspended in his prime. Liston was beat as much mentally as he was physically. In the rematch he was defeated before the bell even rang. Was that fixed? Maybe, I think Liston just knew he had no chance and packed it in ASAP. Good point about Babe Ruth, Pandy. You left out the fact he was also a 20 game winner. The guy hits more HR's than teams hit and won 20 games as a left handed starter. Yeah, that's overrated.

[cj's dad]

So guys, where do you place the "Rock" 49-0 w/ 46KO's and all this accomplished in less than 5 years.

BTW- I saw in person in 1968 the Sonny Liston-Amos "Big Train" Lincoln heavyweight bout held at the then Baltimore Civic Center. Liston won. Also saw the Bob Foster vs. Mark Tessman light heavy title fight at the same venue, sometime in the late 60's early 70's (Foster won by KO),
and saw Sugar Ray's debut at the CC vs. Luis "the Bull" Vega. Sugar was from a Md. suburb of DC, Palmer Park. It was a 4 round bout won by Ray by I believe a decision.

[Marshall Bennett]

So guys, where do you place the "Rock" 49-0 w/ 46KO's and all this accomplished in less than 5 years.
I'd place him at the top with Ali and perhaps Joe Lewis at their prime. Marciano had a similar style to Liston and Foreman, but could absorb a lot more punishment. Walcott made a mess of Marciano's face and nearly beat him.
I was a kid when Liston lost the crown. I remember my dad saying no one could beat Liston, he was simply too big and strong. Ali's speed took Liston by surprise. Tapes Liston watched didn't really do Ali justice, in the ring he was twice as fast. Liston's corner tried a tactic in an attemt to steal a victory by putting a solution on Liston's glove and have him smear it on Ali's eye. It blinded him, but he was still able to make it through the round running from Liston. When this failed, Liston knew he'd had it and quit.
I don't think in those few years before Ali was stripped of the crown that anyone could have beat him. He toned his skills more with every fight.
Marciano would have had to trap him, perhaps in a corner, and devour him with punches to beat him. Otherwise Ali would have worn him down with his speed and gone in for the kill as he did with most all of the others.

[MutuelClerk]

The Rock was one of if not the best ever. If you take on all comers and never lose. I'd say that's about as good as you can do. Is he the best ever? Up for debate. But he was definitely great. To call him overrated would be foolish. I think it was Night Gallery an old Rod Serling show. When a boxer won the belt. HE would face the guy who was considered the best ever in his dream after the fight. And find out where he stood. Was a really cool episode and would solve the problem of the GOAT. Sure would be interesting to see the Rock vs Joe Louis or Ali.

[cj's dad]

I remember my dad saying no one could beat Liston, he was simply too big and strong.

That was the general opinion which was however incorrect.

Liston was listed at 6' 1/2" while Clay at the time of their match was listed at 6'2". Sonny was, I believe a few pounds heavier but not by much.

[lansdale]

No way of knowing that - I do think the rematch in Lewiston Maine as investigated by the FBI was in fact rigged. Link here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston

Liston was not a money maker, Ali was. He was a very charismatic person that would sell tickets in the arenas and on pay-per-view. He generated a lot of income for the mob. He is now broke and living off of gov't assistance.

The Greatest Of All Time ?? Hardly !!

Ali's doing okay - making $3 million+ per annum licensing his name. Net worth recently estimated at $89 million+.

However, a friend of my fathers's, who wrote a book about Ali, agrees with your conclusion on the Lewiston fight - as do apparently many others.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/53/39A3.html

[pandy]

Just a few days ago here in the Lehigh Valley (Bethlehem, PA). Mike Tyson was here to announce that the Sands casino is going to have a fight night once a month with young, upcoming fighters. Tyson is some sort of sponsor for it. I'll probably go one night.

[Greyfox]

That was the general opinion which was however incorrect.

Liston was listed at 6' 1/2" while Clay at the time of their match was listed at 6'2". Sonny was, I believe a few pounds heavier but not by much.

Years ago I was a friend of Wally Highsmith, who played for awhile in the N.F.L.
Wally was 6'5 - a big man.
Wally told me that he had met Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali) on one occasion.
He said don't believe the tale of the tape that he was only 6'2."
Wally said "He was taller than me. He was a big man."

[BettinBilly]

I was alive at the time, but way too young to have even known what boxing was. I was probably watching "Mighty Mouse" at the time of that fight.

The first Ali fight I recall was in 71 when he fought Frazier. Huge in-fighting at my grade school with half the class rooting for Ali, half for Frasier.

[PhantomOnTour]

Though not a heavyweight, I think Sugar Ray Robinson was the best American fighter ever.

[ArlJim78]

Ali himself (@MuhammadAli) sent out a tweet yesterday regarding the Liston fight anniversary. It looks like he's had someone tweeting on his account for some time now, but it now indicates that the champ himself is going to start getting involved using the hastag #AliTweet.

In the extremely remote case that he would ever follow me back I would immediately take a screen cap, frame it and hang it on the wall.

edit;

this is what he tweeted



I shook up the world against Liston, now 50 years later
I'm taking it to Twitter #AliTweet

[Marshall Bennett]

That was the general opinion which was however incorrect.

Liston was listed at 6' 1/2" while Clay at the time of their match was listed at 6'2". Sonny was, I believe a few pounds heavier but not by much.
Perhaps it was Liston's huge arms and legs that made him appear so large. He also had an 84 inch reach compared to 78 for Ali.
Liston truly felt in his own mind he was invincible going into their first fight. His beating by Ali took a toll on his spirit he never fully recovered from.

[Johnny V]

In the replay I saw, it looked like neither fighter wanted to answer the bell. Clay noticed that Liston was coming out either and then answered. I think Liston was a lot better fighter than he gets credit for. He was past his prime by the time he won the title.
I agree that Liston was a much better fighter than people realize. Liston had power and had a tremendous left jab. He was a top contender for many years and virtually destroyed many of the top fighters of the day before he was given a shot at the title. He was probably past his prime when he won the title.

[cj's dad]

I agree that Liston was a much better fighter than people realize. Liston had power and had a tremendous left jab. He was a top contender for many years and virtually destroyed many of the top fighters of the day before he was given a shot at the title. He was probably past his prime when he won the title.

I saw the Liston/Lincoln fight at the Baltimore Civic Center. My uncle took me to the then Southern Hotel to watch Liston spar several days before the fight. I was in awe of how big he looked in person. I also remember that he had a large scar on his chest/shoulder as a result of being stabbed. He was not a very friendly person as when the session was over he left the ring and adjacent area without any good byes/autographs of any sort. He won by a KO in round 2 I believe.