Good Ole D Wayne Lukas

[Mineshaft]

runs a Maiden in the Risen Star and I think he just crossed the finish line


freakin goofball

[horses4courses]

runs a Maiden in the Risen Star and I think he just crossed the finish line


freakin goofball

If it has 4 legs and a heartbeat - think KY Derby :p

[Ocala Mike]

His "impossible" looking Skyring nearly beat me out of my "nearly impossible" winner, Potomac River, in the race before.

[pele polo]

Yeah Lukas has no idea what he's doing. He won an Oaklwan 3yo Maiden today and yesterday and was 2nd in a graded stakes with a longshot. How many other trainers can say they accomplished as much in the last couple days. Of course that's all he's done. It's not like he's trained any champions or anything at least not lately.

[Stillriledup]

Lukas gets a pass because he's won a big race with a big price in the past. So, he can blowtorch 99 horses who are totally outclassed as long as one of the 100 comes home first. For Example, When you have a longshot like Oxbow in the Preakness, that's Oxbow, he's a proven quality horse, he's won big races before the Preakness and he had fast speed figures and fit in the race from a talent standpoint. Lukas hitting a bomb in a "big race" has nothing to do with a horse who "doesnt belong".

Isnt Lukas supposed to be one of the "Greatest trainers" to the point where he would know which bombs to give a shot with and which bombs to put in a different spot? If you lose by the length of the stretch without incident, you did a bad job spotting your horse, no way to sugarcoat it.

[Thebigguy]

runs a Maiden in the Risen Star and I think he just crossed the finish line


freakin goofball
Gotta be in it to win if. Lukas is a living legend, he's paid his dues. He can do what he wants.

[pele polo]

@Stillriledup

Go back watch and watch Vigorish's last race before the Risen Star and you'll see why Lukas gave him a shot in this stakes race. Also, the Winstsr horse that beat him is legit.

[Mineshaft]

Gotta be in it to win if. Lukas is a living legend, he's paid his dues. He can do what he wants.







If you owned the horse would you put the horse in the Risen Star coming off a 2nd place in a MSW at 22/1 odds?


I don't buy the "hes paid his dues" he can spot his horse where ever bullshit.

[therussmeister]

Maybe it was the owner who insisted on running in that spot.

[Mineshaft]

Maybe it was the owner who insisted on running in that spot.




then hes a goofball too

[maclr11]

If you want to make the Derby field, you have to run in these races and see if you have the horse to contend. There's lots and lots of MSW races, there isn't a ton of Derby preps.

[iceknight]

If you owned the horse would you put the horse in the Risen Star coming off a 2nd place in a MSW at 22/1 odds?


I don't buy the "hes paid his dues" he can spot his horse where ever bullshit. Odds are determined by the public and they are not right 66% of the time.. or something close to that..

[Mineshaft]

Odds are determined by the public and they are not right 66% of the time.. or something close to that..





Answer my question...

[JustRalph]

Odds are determined by the public and they are not right 66% of the time.. or something close to that..

That numbers around 60% nowadays. And that's a big difference.

I didn't play lots of tracks last year, but my 2013 data shows about 39% favs on the tracks I played.

Take out maiden races and it's even higher. But I only have about ten tracks in my database

[turninforhome10]

runs a Maiden in the Risen Star and I think he just crossed the finish line


freakin goofball
I agree somewhat about the thought of entering the horse in the Risen Star, but on the other hand. There is only two 3yo races going long in the CB, run in the Risen Star as a paid work and then hope the Maiden race going long on March 9th is used and run back with a fitter horse. The logistics of finding 3yo races going long is a bit tricky,but getting a horses head jerked off is another thing entirely.
My old boss had a discussion with D Wayne one morning while watching their morning charges at Churchill. To put this in context, this was the early 80's after he won the Preakness with Codex and his stock was rising through the roof.
T-Red asked him his secret to winning the big races.
As they sat their, Lukas on his pony, D Wayne would randomly comment " See that horse, Mr Prospector baby". He would pause. " See that horse Seattle Slew baby". This went on as he went through all the top bloodlines.
Finally D Wayne stated and T-Red quotes " If they can't perform in the big races, I have 5 more just like them in the barn to take their place".
Some things never change, but D Wayne can get the big horse to perform.
The problem with this philosophy is it can create many casualties on the way.
In order to find the big horse many horses will be pushed to the breaking point to see if they can handle the pressure. Much as Lukas did yesterday with the maiden.

[Shemp Howard]

then hes a goofball too

Maybe they both prescribe to that tired old saw "you only live once?"

[wisconsin]

People need to get off the Lukas bashing train. Is a 2nd place maiden really any different than the horse who broke his maiden by a head and then goes into a graded prep? If you really cared, you would see 20 horses everyday of the week running in the wrong spots at racetracks everywhere. But then again, if it's not Lukas, look the other way.

[iceknight]

Answer my question... Yes, if my trainer says so.

[Mineshaft]

Yes, if my trainer says so.




Wow................

[Greyfox]

People need to get off the Lukas bashing train..

His steed ran 41 lengths behind the winner in the previous 3 races and then nearly won the Risen Star.
Lukas knows how to wake them up when the time is right.

[iceknight]

Wow................ Don't know what's there to "wow" about, but "if" I owned horses, I would properly defer to an experienced trainer (except for making sure he is not drugging them up), more than making my own inexperienced judgement calls, you asked a question, you got the answer. Don't be upset if you did not get the whole world to agree with you. This is the whole reason why people bet longshots, because they have differing opinions than the crowd. Horses that are maturing are all the more reason to be raced, than just ceding to the competition.

[Mineshaft]

Don't know what's there to "wow" about, but "if" I owned horses, I would properly defer to an experienced trainer (except for making sure he is not drugging them up), more than making my own inexperienced judgement calls, you asked a question, you got the answer. Don't be upset if you did not get the whole world to agree with you. This is the whole reason why people bet longshots, because they have differing opinions than the crowd. Horses that are maturing are all the more reason to be raced, than just ceding to the competition.





You right I would defer to an experienced trainer also but if I had a Maiden and my trainer wanted to run in a stakes race with the maiden I would fire him on the spot. But that's just me. If he doesn't have my best interest and the best interest of my horse time to find another trainer and if I had to fire Lukas I would in a heart beat.

[PaceAdvantage]

runs a Maiden in the Risen Star and I think he just crossed the finish line


freakin goofballPick and choose...pick and choose...so easy to do...

[rastajenk]

I put the :4: in with some dime supers just because he was a Lukas longshot. He was with the pace for half; I didn't mind that he slowed down after that. I don't see why any one else would either, as it shouldn't have affected their wagering or race-watching experience negatively.

[burnsy]

To be fair it's Calumet they don't breed/ buy horses so Lukas can enter them in claiming races. Oxbow was a Calumet horse. This horse is bred like a good thing. Like Turingforhome said they will try all of them to find the "big horse". His odds last time don't matter he clearly out ran 22-1 to finish second. Plus, they did ship out of Oak lawn Park where it seems all the "heavies" are going to show up, the Risen Star is historically a softer group. They definitely "eyeballed" this group and thought is was the easiest stakes race at this point. I could not bet a horse like that but stranger things have happened. People get all wrapped up in the hype, with these 3 yo horses they can "jump up" 5 to 10 lengths in a matter of weeks.....Lukas knows this too and he pulled it off just last year. People forget the changes in this game....the best 3 yo in February (Orb last year) is rarely the best one in May, June and beyond. Just like the best 2 yo last year is usually no where by derby time. If anything these horses are being brought along slower these days. They took a shot........big deal?

[Mineshaft]

To be fair it's Calumet they don't breed/ buy horses so Lukas can enter them in claiming races. Oxbow was a Calumet horse. This horse is bred like a good thing. Like Turingforhome said they will try all of them to find the "big horse". His odds last time don't matter he clearly out ran 22-1 to finish second. Plus, they did ship out of Oak lawn Park where it seems all the "heavies" are going to show up, the Risen Star is historically a softer group. They definitely "eyeballed" this group and thought is was the easiest stakes race at this point. I could not bet a horse like that but stranger things have happened. People get all wrapped up in the hype, with these 3 yo horses they can "jump up" 5 to 10 lengths in a matter of weeks.....Lukas knows this too and he pulled it off just last year. People forget the changes in this game....the best 3 yo in February (Orb last year) is rarely the best one in May, June and beyond. Just like the best 2 yo last year is usually no where by derby time. If anything these horses are being brought along slower these days. They took a shot........big deal?





I agree the Risen Star is typically not a strong race but the horse was a 7 race Maiden who ran one decent race. Does that constitute putting him in a stakes race at the FG? I guess it does. Not what I would do but I don't own or train the horse. Did Lukas have anything to say about the race, I haven't heard any comments anywhere?

[davew]

gotta be in it to win it

[burnsy]

I agree the Risen Star is typically not a strong race but the horse was a 7 race Maiden who ran one decent race. Does that constitute putting him in a stakes race at the FG? I guess it does. Not what I would do but I don't own or train the horse. Did Lukas have anything to say about the race, I haven't heard any comments anywhere?

I get your point, I didn't bet that race but I would of tossed that horse too. If he got even 3rd or 4th, I'm sure they would of been ecstatic. Didn't hear anything after. I concentrated on GP this weekend and had seconditis.

[chadk66]

lukas has always done these types of things.

[classhandicapper]

I think running horses over their head is a really bad idea.

1. You are throwing away a race where the horse might have some earnings power of spotted properly

2. I've seen a lot of very promising horses never come back from a drubbing

Whether the horse is spotted properly is somewhat subjective. There's a difference between aggressive and crazy. But I don't think occasionally winning a big race with some longshot justifies the practice any more that occasionally cashing a bet on a longshot but still losing money on them over the long haul does. It's a long term thing.

[Mineshaft]

I think running horses over their head is a really bad idea.

1. You are throwing away a race where the horse might have some earnings power of spotted properly

2. I've seen a lot of very promising horses never come back from a drubbing

Whether the horse is spotted properly is somewhat subjective. There's a difference between aggressive and crazy. But I don't think occasionally winning a big race with some longshot justifies the practice any more that occasionally cashing a bet on a longshot but still losing money on them over the long haul does. It's a long term thing.






Bingoooo we have a winner...........................

[maclr11]

Making money is a secondary goal for d Wayne. Lukas just wants to be in the big races, what does he care if he wins a 47k msw now. This isn't a one horse mom and pop operation who need this horse to win to survive. One of the major keys to d Wayne's strategy and a way to make money through breeding is to win the marquee races. Aka triple crown races. You can't make the derby field by winning a maiden race. Take the shot, if you think you have the horse go for it. This horse obviously has some talent. There's a limited number of derby points, there's a msw every weekend. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Plus you can't say he didn't gain experience in a big field and now they have tried the best and know that he's not there yet. And guess what there's a msw race coming up this weekend, next weekend, 2 weeks from now, and at every distance and surface you could imagine.

[Relwob Owner]

runs a Maiden in the Risen Star and I think he just crossed the finish line


freakin goofball


We get it. You think he runs horses over their heads at times. You have covered that ground and he has done that.

However, the man is an amazing trainer who has withstood the test of time and saying he is a "goofball", especially after his training jobs the last year or so, makes you sound like the goofball.

[Stillriledup]

We get it. You think he runs horses over their heads at times. You have covered that ground and he has done that.

However, the man is an amazing trainer who has withstood the test of time and saying he is a "goofball", especially after his training jobs the last year or so, makes you sound like the goofball.

He's an amazing talker, can sell snow to the eskimos, and has the ability to convince rich and intellgent businessmen to buy large animals that havent even proven they can run at all. As far as him withstanding the test of time on his horsemanship skills and classifying his runners properly? Im thinking not as much as his legendary status as a motivational speaker.

[cj]

Making money is a secondary goal for d Wayne. Lukas just wants to be in the big races, what does he care if he wins a 47k msw now. This isn't a one horse mom and pop operation who need this horse to win to survive. One of the major keys to d Wayne's strategy and a way to make money through breeding is to win the marquee races. Aka triple crown races. You can't make the derby field by winning a maiden race. Take the shot, if you think you have the horse go for it. This horse obviously has some talent. There's a limited number of derby points, there's a msw every weekend. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Plus you can't say he didn't gain experience in a big field and now they have tried the best and know that he's not there yet. And guess what there's a msw race coming up this weekend, next weekend, 2 weeks from now, and at every distance and surface you could imagine.

Well said.

[turninforhome10]

. And guess what there's a msw race coming up this weekend, next weekend, 2 weeks from now, and at every distance and surface you could imagine.
What condition book are you reading? FG has one race going long for 3yo's males on the 12th of March. No assurances that it will fill, but I imagine it will. But to say that there is all these races to run in, is coming from where? He could ship between FG and OP but here are the races.
FG http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbHorsemenAreaDownloadAction.cfm?sn=CBI-FG-20140220-20140312D

OP http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbHorsemenAreaDownloadAction.cfm?sn=CBI-OP-20140221-20140313D

That is my point. Finding a 3yo MSW going long for straight 3yo's is no guarantee this time of year. Probable? Yes. Guaranteed? NO.

[maclr11]

It was more of a generic point. FG, Oaklawn, Gulfstream, Turfway, Aqueduct, Santa, Sam Houston, Tampa take your pick it's D. Wayne Lukas you think he's afraid to ship. Extras come up all the time, I'm sure if he asks for an extra they might listen to him. He can find a sprint, route, turf, poly, low purse, high purse. 3YO maidens are not on the list of horses that are hard to get in.

[wisconsin]

He's an amazing talker, can sell snow to the eskimos, and has the ability to convince rich and intellgent businessmen to buy large animals that havent even proven they can run at all. As far as him withstanding the test of time on his horsemanship skills and classifying his runners properly? Im thinking not as much as his legendary status as a motivational speaker.

You are out of your mind. This guy was training horses in Wisconsin as a kid. He clearly has the skills. Who cares if he gives great motivational speeches. What does that have to do with anything?

The ridiculous disdain for this man blows my mind.

[speed]

It's not like his assistant trainers over the years have gone out on their own and had any success. :)

[taxicab]

I wouldn't be so hard on the old Coach for running maidens in tough spots.
Trivia question.
Who's the only trainer in history to win a Breeders Cup race with a maiden ?
Yup.....

[Stillriledup]

You are out of your mind. This guy was training horses in Wisconsin as a kid. He clearly has the skills. Who cares if he gives great motivational speeches. What does that have to do with anything?

The ridiculous disdain for this man blows my mind.

Skills? His best skill was to convince really rich people to purchase yearlings for millions of dollars and give them to HIM to train. Do you know how many dollars his owners spent at the yearlings sales over the years? A little bit more than most people. And, when those same owners died or got out of the game, he didnt have all those fancy yearlings and he fell off the map

My comments stated that his success has a LOT to do with his ability to wear nice suits, have a very cool pair of shades, be tall and handsome and speak like a presidential candidate, oh yeah, and hire amazing assistants.

Do you think that his "training" got great horses and his people skills had nothing to do with it? There's no "distain" for anything, we are just calling a spade a spade. Go to equibase and look at his "earnings" breakdown year after year.....did he "forget" how to train? No, if anything, he got better, smarter and more experience as the years have gone on, yet, his earnings went down drastically......that had nothing to do with "skills" and had everything to do with a lack of owners buying him fancy horses.

[wisconsin]

Skills? His best skill was to convince really rich people to purchase yearlings for millions of dollars and give them to HIM to train. Do you know how many dollars his owners spent at the yearlings sales over the years? A little bit more than most people. And, when those same owners died or got out of the game, he didnt have all those fancy yearlings and he fell off the map

My comments stated that his success has a LOT to do with his ability to wear nice suits, have a very cool pair of shades, be tall and handsome and speak like a presidential candidate, oh yeah, and hire amazing assistants.

Do you think that his "training" got great horses and his people skills had nothing to do with it? There's no "distain" for anything, we are just calling a spade a spade. Go to equibase and look at his "earnings" breakdown year after year.....did he "forget" how to train? No, if anything, he got better, smarter and more experience as the years have gone on, yet, his earnings went down drastically......that had nothing to do with "skills" and had everything to do with a lack of owners buying him fancy horses.

Yeah, his assistants just happened to know everything.

Todd Pletcher, Michael Maker, Kiaran McLaughlin, Dallas Stewart, Bobby Barnett, Mark Hennig, Randy Bradshw, and his own son, who was going to good. They all came in and did not learn a thing from Lukas. :bang:

[classhandicapper]

Making money is a secondary goal for d Wayne. Lukas just wants to be in the big races, what does he care if he wins a 47k msw now. This isn't a one horse mom and pop operation who need this horse to win to survive. One of the major keys to d Wayne's strategy and a way to make money through breeding is to win the marquee races. Aka triple crown races. You can't make the derby field by winning a maiden race. Take the shot, if you think you have the horse go for it. This horse obviously has some talent. There's a limited number of derby points, there's a msw every weekend. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Plus you can't say he didn't gain experience in a big field and now they have tried the best and know that he's not there yet. And guess what there's a msw race coming up this weekend, next weekend, 2 weeks from now, and at every distance and surface you could imagine.

We all understand the strategy, but like a I said, winning a marquee race doesn't necessarily justify the strategy if you blow a couple of million dollars in purse money by running in a series of bad spots and also ruin a few horses along the way doing it.

He may be a great horseman, but I would never give one of my horses to him unless I had complete control over the race selection process. If I couldn't get a Mott, Shug, Shirreffs, or someone like that, I'd rather give my horse to someone who shows flashes of promise but hasn't had the stock yet (maybe Leah Gyarmati).

[therussmeister]

runs a Maiden in the Risen Star and I think he just crossed the finish line


freakin goofball

Judging by this post I assumed the horse finished last, but he didn't. So why aren't we talking about good old Robert Pincins, Clark Thomas, or Danny Pish?

[Mineshaft]

Judging by this post I assumed the horse finished last, but he didn't. So why aren't we talking about good old Robert Pincins, Clark Thomas, or Danny Pish?










Has Pish ever run a Maiden in a Grade 2 race?

[Dahoss2002]

Lucas= Great trainer. Not his fault I never get his horses right.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, his assistants just happened to know everything.

Todd Pletcher, Michael Maker, Kiaran McLaughlin, Dallas Stewart, Bobby Barnett, Mark Hennig, Randy Bradshw, and his own son, who was going to good. They all came in and did not learn a thing from Lukas. :bang:

:D

In 2008 and 2011 (for example) Lukas earnings were under 2 million. Pletcher, earns more than 10 million per year EASILY in purses.....if Lukas taught Pletcher a lot of what he knows, he may want to follow his own advice!

[Mineshaft]

hes 8/55 and that's mostly at Oaklawn with a few at FG and a start at Gulfstream. With his horseflesh in the barn he should be getting more wins at Oaklawn. If he was stabled at FG his wins would be about 3. For whatever reason he just doesn't win enough anymore.

[PhantomOnTour]

You have to know when to play Lukas...I have found that 2nd time over the track is the time to bet.
See: Strong Mandate at Sar last year - he does this all the time.

Find a Lukas runner, scan the pp's and see how they performed 2nd time over the surface.

[letswastemoney]

hes 8/55 and that's mostly at Oaklawn with a few at FG and a start at Gulfstream. With his horseflesh in the barn he should be getting more wins at Oaklawn. If he was stabled at FG his wins would be about 3. For whatever reason he just doesn't win enough anymore.
Some of his placements are a bit off. Broken Spell raced on dirt at Oaklawn once, and Cello, the full sister to Optimizer, did as well.

[PaceAdvantage]

Lucas= Great trainer. Not his fault I never get his horses right.Or his name... :lol:

[wisconsin]

:D

In 2008 and 2011 (for example) Lukas earnings were under 2 million. Pletcher, earns more than 10 million per year EASILY in purses.....if Lukas taught Pletcher a lot of what he knows, he may want to follow his own advice!


You see, this is the problem. I assure you that Pletcher's horses, on average, were 5 times more expensive than anything Lukas was training. But you think Lukas is the only guy out there who can talk a millionaire out of his money. You don't get it.

[speed]

You don't get it.
Just figuring this out? :lol:

[Stillriledup]

You see, this is the problem. I assure you that Pletcher's horses, on average, were 5 times more expensive than anything Lukas was training. But you think Lukas is the only guy out there who can talk a millionaire out of his money. You don't get it.

So, lets recap, shall we?

I say that Lukas main success is his ability to get owners to buy him expensive horses and that he has good/great help.

YOU say that the reason his help is great is because he taught them everything (or much of) that he knows.

I point out that Pletcher wins 10 times more money in purses than Lukas

You point out that the reason Pletcher wins more is because he has much more expensive horses.

You're all over the place and you even have poor speedy convinced that "i dont get it".

:bang:

[speed]

Wasn't Lukas also a champion quarter horse trainer prior to entering the thoroughbred game? Hall of Fame inductee in both sports?
No talent horseman for sure. :lol:

[wisconsin]

So, lets recap, shall we?

I say that Lukas main success is his ability to get owners to buy him expensive horses and that he has good/great help.

YOU say that the reason his help is great is because he taught them everything (or much of) that he knows.

I point out that Pletcher wins 10 times more money in purses than Lukas

You point out that the reason Pletcher wins more is because he has much more expensive horses.

You're all over the place and you even have poor speedy convinced that "i dont get it".

:bang:

And you insinuate that Lukas had success because of the expensive horses he trained, but you sure don't say that about Pletcher. :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

And you insinuate that Lukas had success because of the expensive horses he trained, but you sure don't say that about Pletcher. :rolleyes:

I didnt say that about Pletcher because this is a thread about Lukas. My posts probably came across like i was taking a "shot" at Lukas, but the fact remains that anyone (including Pletcher) who has owners that spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on horseflesh and have no problem writing million dollar checks will be "better trainers" than people who don't have these fancy yearlings.

My points were that with Lukas was that his ability to procure rich owners who had no problem spending unlimited supplies of money on yearlings was his "Strength" as a trainer moreso than his actual horsemanship skills. Now, if you believe that the reason he got all these great owners was because of his great horsemanship skills, than that is your right to believe that, i won't try and convince you otherwise.

[rastajenk]

Well, wouldn't you have to know some horsemanship skills in order to judge others? How many times have you wrapped an ankle, jogged several in the morning, adjusted feed schedules, or anything else that might be considered "horsemanship?" It's not the same as, say, recognizing a talented football player without having played that game. There's so much more in running a stable that you'll never know or care about. All you know about is deep-pocketed owners. :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

Well, wouldn't you have to know some horsemanship skills in order to judge others? How many times have you wrapped an ankle, jogged several in the morning, adjusted feed schedules, or anything else that might be considered "horsemanship?" It's not the same as, say, recognizing a talented football player without having played that game. There's so much more in running a stable that you'll never know or care about. All you know about is deep-pocketed owners. :rolleyes:

You don't need to know how to wrap an ankle, but if you watch video tapes carefully, watch the spots trainers enter, how their horses look in the post parade in the coat and flesh, seeing what equipment they wear, seeing how straight they stay, seeing if they switch leads on cue, see if they have been taught to be game ,seeing how they react to kickback and so on and so forth. You don't have to be a "trainer" to know how to evaluate the "finished product".

As far as "running a stable" goes, a lot of that is hiring the help, paying the help, keeping things organized, keeping the barn clean, entering the horses, picking their next races, talking to jocks, calming down owners who are worried about their money, etc. There's a LOT that goes into it that's NOT "horsemanship" so trainers get a TON of credit for just keeping things in check. Nobody works harder than Wayne, he's the first guy to the track in the mornings and he's probably missed less days at the track than we can count on our 2 hands, he's a 365 guy.

[rastajenk]

So, having said all that (which I could agree with in part), do you still want to make the case that Lukas' horsemanship is somehow deficient?

[Mineshaft]

Some of his placements are a bit off. Broken Spell raced on dirt at Oaklawn once, and Cello, the full sister to Optimizer, did as well.




That's my whole point his placement of his horses is off way too much. For a trainer like him he spots his horses over there head way too many times than he should be.

[Stillriledup]

So, having said all that (which I could agree with in part), do you still want to make the case that Lukas' horsemanship is somehow deficient?

Depends on what your definition of "horsemanship" is.

[PaceAdvantage]

That's my whole point his placement of his horses is off way too much. For a trainer like him he spots his horses over there head way too many times than he should be.No...he actually gives them a shot at greatness, which is how he earned his reputation as a hall of fame trainer.

He's not one of these "let's baby them along and maybe something will happen once ever 15 years."

And that's fine. Certainly nothing WRONG with that approach. And in fact, obviously, many people respect this kind of thing, as the general consensus seems to be that this is "what is best" for the horse.

I'm not sure I buy that...and I know for sure this isn't the case FOR EVERY horse, as all horses are different, and it is up to the trainer to discover what his horse can and can not do.

But Lukas is never afraid to take the shot, and I respect that. That's what creates exciting races. Trainers who often don't duck. Who often don't take the easy way out.

And as for SRU saying that Lukas mostly had his salesmanship going for him, and that's how he landed big-time owners (as if he was somehow snowing them)...that's bullshit.

No matter what kind of talk a trainer gives, RESULTS are the one thing all owners (especially wealthy, successful men who have earned their dough in other areas) respect and respond to.

So Lukas had to have a RESUME of WINNING to back up his talk before he was able to get the good horses. He was, as was pointed out, one of the greatest Quarter Horse trainers of all time before he moved into t-breds. And he didn't start out in the t-bred game with wealthy owners throwing their money at him.

The way some of you talk one would think all Lukas does is jabber on the phone and fly out on his private jet to meet with perspective wealthy clients in the attempt to BS his way into another wealthy man's pocket.

But, even trainers who don't necessarily like Lukas will tell you the man runs a first class operation and knows how to train. All the other nonsense is just that...nonsense.

It's quite hilarious that a guy like Jack Van Berg will get the benefit of the doubt and the pity that goes along with "well, he can't compete with all the chemists out there these days...it's not like he forgot to train."

BUT, to some of you out there, Lukas' fall from grace the last decade+ has been nothing but a validation of the notion that he is only a good salesman....and little else.

Whatever man...

[Fastracehorse]

it was awesome because it was incredible how hard a knocker Oxbow was up until that point

the man is 78!

he was matter of fact about the win and actually had an aura of humility about him; he said he was up at 4:30 am tomorrow to ship Oxbow back to CD, lol

and the maniacal smile on Stevens face after the race; that's one for the ages

fffastt

[Mineshaft]

No...he actually gives them a shot at greatness, which is how he earned his reputation as a hall of fame trainer.

He's not one of these "let's baby them along and maybe something will happen once ever 15 years."

And that's fine. Certainly nothing WRONG with that approach. And in fact, obviously, many people respect this kind of thing, as the general consensus seems to be that this is "what is best" for the horse.

I'm not sure I buy that...and I know for sure this isn't the case FOR EVERY horse, as all horses are different, and it is up to the trainer to discover what his horse can and can not do.

But Lukas is never afraid to take the shot, and I respect that. That's what creates exciting races. Trainers who often don't duck. Who often don't take the easy way out.

And as for SRU saying that Lukas mostly had his salesmanship going for him, and that's how he landed big-time owners (as if he was somehow snowing them)...that's bullshit.

No matter what kind of talk a trainer gives, RESULTS are the one thing all owners (especially wealthy, successful men who have earned their dough in other areas) respect and respond to.

So Lukas had to have a RESUME of WINNING to back up his talk before he was able to get the good horses. He was, as was pointed out, one of the greatest Quarter Horse trainers of all time before he moved into t-breds. And he didn't start out in the t-bred game with wealthy owners throwing their money at him.

The way some of you talk one would think all Lukas does is jabber on the phone and fly out on his private jet to meet with perspective wealthy clients in the attempt to BS his way into another wealthy man's pocket.

But, even trainers who don't necessarily like Lukas will tell you the man runs a first class operation and knows how to train. All the other nonsense is just that...nonsense.

It's quite hilarious that a guy like Jack Van Berg will get the benefit of the doubt and the pity that goes along with "well, he can't compete with all the chemists out there these days...it's not like he forgot to train."

BUT, to some of you out there, Lukas' fall from grace the last decade+ has been nothing but a validation of the notion that he is only a good salesman....and little else.

Whatever man...






Looks like we will agree to disagree, nothing wrong with that..

[Stillriledup]

No...he actually gives them a shot at greatness, which is how he earned his reputation as a hall of fame trainer.

He's not one of these "let's baby them along and maybe something will happen once ever 15 years."

And that's fine. Certainly nothing WRONG with that approach. And in fact, obviously, many people respect this kind of thing, as the general consensus seems to be that this is "what is best" for the horse.

I'm not sure I buy that...and I know for sure this isn't the case FOR EVERY horse, as all horses are different, and it is up to the trainer to discover what his horse can and can not do.

But Lukas is never afraid to take the shot, and I respect that. That's what creates exciting races. Trainers who often don't duck. Who often don't take the easy way out.

And as for SRU saying that Lukas mostly had his salesmanship going for him, and that's how he landed big-time owners (as if he was somehow snowing them)...that's bullshit.

No matter what kind of talk a trainer gives, RESULTS are the one thing all owners (especially wealthy, successful men who have earned their dough in other areas) respect and respond to.

So Lukas had to have a RESUME of WINNING to back up his talk before he was able to get the good horses. He was, as was pointed out, one of the greatest Quarter Horse trainers of all time before he moved into t-breds. And he didn't start out in the t-bred game with wealthy owners throwing their money at him.

The way some of you talk one would think all Lukas does is jabber on the phone and fly out on his private jet to meet with perspective wealthy clients in the attempt to BS his way into another wealthy man's pocket.

But, even trainers who don't necessarily like Lukas will tell you the man runs a first class operation and knows how to train. All the other nonsense is just that...nonsense.

It's quite hilarious that a guy like Jack Van Berg will get the benefit of the doubt and the pity that goes along with "well, he can't compete with all the chemists out there these days...it's not like he forgot to train."

BUT, to some of you out there, Lukas' fall from grace the last decade+ has been nothing but a validation of the notion that he is only a good salesman....and little else.

Whatever man...

He earned his reputation as a HOF trainer by winning races and purse money, it had nothing to do with actual horse caring skills. Any human who won that many races, graded races and purse money would have been lauded as a "Great trainer" no matter what their skills at actual training happened to be.

As far as the salesmanship goes, let me talk about that again. A Large part of 'horsemanship' is knowing where to place your runners. If you buy dozens of expensive and well bred yearlings per year and just shoot for the sky with every one of them, of course you're going to hit a few homeruns, BUT, here's the question i'll ask....if he's such a great trainer and great horsemen, wouldnt he be able to know which horses deserve the shot and which ones do not? Anyone can enter every horse they train in the biggest race running that week, that takes zero skill...you would think that Lukas being such a great "horsemen" he would have insight to his horses that none of us are privy to...he knows which horses have breathing or bleeding problems, which horses are really fancy but lack heart and "try" and so on and so forth...yet, he enters horses and acts like he knows just as much as the guy in the grandstand with holes in his shoes.

What Lukases "resume" was before he became "Lukas" is certainly up for debate.....and you have to admit, he's an AMAZING salesmen, he's incredibly persuasive, he's the coach, so he knows all about motivational speeches and whatnut. He's well spoken, wears great suits, has awesome sunglasses and projects a "Presidential" image, he has great attention to detail, he's the first guy at the barns in the morning also.....so, you really can't say a large part of his success isnt due to all of that "non horsemen" stuff. He hires great assistants, has the best vets money can buy, spares no expense in hiring the best help and spares no expense in any other area.....combined that with the best bred horses at the sales, and how could you NOT win?

Part of being a "Great trainer" is entering horses where they belong....and if you have no clue where they belong, you enter in the highest class race you can and pray. Is that the type of trainer YOU would give horses to ? I guy who's entering and praying?

[wisconsin]

He earned his reputation as a HOF trainer by winning races and purse money, it had nothing to do with actual horse caring skills. Any human who won that many races, graded races and purse money would have been lauded as a "Great trainer" no matter what their skills at actual training happened to be.

As far as the salesmanship goes, let me talk about that again. A Large part of 'horsemanship' is knowing where to place your runners. If you buy dozens of expensive and well bred yearlings per year and just shoot for the sky with every one of them, of course you're going to hit a few homeruns, BUT, here's the question i'll ask....if he's such a great trainer and great horsemen, wouldnt he be able to know which horses deserve the shot and which ones do not? Anyone can enter every horse they train in the biggest race running that week, that takes zero skill...you would think that Lukas being such a great "horsemen" he would have insight to his horses that none of us are privy to...he knows which horses have breathing or bleeding problems, which horses are really fancy but lack heart and "try" and so on and so forth...yet, he enters horses and acts like he knows just as much as the guy in the grandstand with holes in his shoes.

What Lukases "resume" was before he became "Lukas" is certainly up for debate.....and you have to admit, he's an AMAZING salesmen, he's incredibly persuasive, he's the coach, so he knows all about motivational speeches and whatnut. He's well spoken, wears great suits, has awesome sunglasses and projects a "Presidential" image, he has great attention to detail, he's the first guy at the barns in the morning also.....so, you really can't say a large part of his success isnt due to all of that "non horsemen" stuff. He hires great assistants, has the best vets money can buy, spares no expense in hiring the best help and spares no expense in any other area.....combined that with the best bred horses at the sales, and how could you NOT win?

Part of being a "Great trainer" is entering horses where they belong....and if you have no clue where they belong, you enter in the highest class race you can and pray. Is that the type of trainer YOU would give horses to ? I guy who's entering and praying?

You seem quite in the know.

Name 10 true horseman, fitting your definition as such and why. I know you'll come back and say this thread is about Lukas, so I dare you to open another thread with your top 10. Because we all want to know.

[Grits]

You seem quite in the know.

Name 10 true horseman, fitting your definition as such and why. I know you'll come back and say this thread is about Lukas, so I dare you to open another thread with your top 10. Because we all want to know.

No. Please, no. I don't want to know, Wisconsin. I'm begging you. Don't ask him to do it. This screed was long enough. You have to realize if SRU were paid by the word for his opinions shared here, Bill Gates wouldn't be able to touch him on net worth. No way. ... You've outdone yourself with this one, SRU.:rolleyes:

[Mineshaft]

SRU makes some good points some of which I agree with.

Look im not saying hes a bad trainer because hes not. All im saying he wants to dance every dance and sometimes he doesn't think of the horse when hes doing it. Putting that Maiden in a Gr 2 at the FG when the horse couldn't break his Maiden at Oaklawn was plain stupid.

[horses4courses]

What's the line on Strong Mandate being sound by year's end?
Anyone?

I'd make it -2.00 No

Hopefully, he'll be retired to stud by then with a relatively minor injury.

"Precocious 2yo that peaked at Saratoga, and just never trained on."
Hmmmm......

Anyone know what happened to that good turf horse Optimizer ?
They were running him about every month into the early summer when they finally realized the horse needed a break,
and wasn't performing.
Hmmmm.....

Nice horse....runs good on soft turf, too.
He's no Wise Dan , but who is?
I'd like to see him make it back to the races, or make a stallion.

D. Wayne Lukas.
Legendary HOF trainer? Yes.
Especially with deep pocket owners like the late Gene Klein around.
Do you have to like everything about his M.O. with horses?
I think not.

[rastajenk]

No. Please, no. I don't want to know, Wisconsin. I'm begging you. Don't ask him to do it. This screed was long enough. You have to realize if SRU were paid by the word for his opinions shared here, Bill Gates wouldn't be able to touch him on net worth. No way. ... You've outdone yourself with this one, SRU.:rolleyes:
I've already cleaned my shoes after walking in his shit. I keep telling myself, "Never again." It's someone else's turn. Who's next? :p

[taxicab]

Will any trainer ever be able to duplicate this type of resume......

Kentucky Derby
Winning Colors (1988)
Thunder Gulch (1995)
Grindstone (1996)
Charismatic (1999)

Preakness Stakes
Codex (1980)
Tank's Prospect (1985)
Tabasco Cat (1994)
Timber Country (1995)
Charismatic (1999)
Oxbow (2013)

Belmont Stakes
Tabasco Cat (1994)
Thunder Gulch (1995)
Editor's Note (1996)
Commendable (2000)

Breeders' Cup Classic
Cat Thief (1999)

Breeders' Cup Distaff
Life's Magic (1985)
Lady's Secret (1986)
Sacahuista (1987)
Spain (2000)

Breeders' Cup Mile
Steinlen (1989)

Breeders' Cup Sprint
Gulch (1988)
Orientate (2002)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile
Capote (1986)
Success Express (1987)
Is It True (1988)
Timber Country (1994)
Boston Harbor (1996)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies
Twilight Ridge (1985)
Open Mind (1988)
Flanders (1994)
Cash Run (1999)
Folklore (2005)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile Sprint
Hightail (2012)

[classhandicapper]

No...he actually gives them a shot at greatness, which is how he earned his reputation as a hall of fame trainer.

He's not one of these "let's baby them along and maybe something will happen once ever 15 years."





There's a subtle difference between babying horses, seeking logical challenges, and spotting your horses in off the wall spots where there have little chance of winning or where the races aren't part of some logical progression.

For example, I would argue that Wise Dan should start in a some 1m or 1 1/8M races on the turf again this year. Then they could take a shot in a couple of middle distance races on dirt and/or synthetic for a challenge. Depending on how he does, then they could consider either stretching him out on turf (1 1/4) or running in the BC Classic later in the year. But they could always fall back to the Turf Mile again if he disappoints or looks like he doesn't want to stretch out.

A guy like Lukas would probably start with the Donn. No matter what he does, Dubai at 10F on synth would be next. Even if he got buried in Dubai, he'd wind up in the Met next. Then he'd ship out west for some 1 1/4 turf race. Then he'd be in the Gold Cup on his way to the BC Classic or BC Turf Classic no matter how he handled dirt or distance previously.

Every once in awhile some horse is going to come along and be good enough and versatile enough to stand up to that lunacy, but he'd ruin a bunch of campaigns also.

The idea is to find a scenario that would give the horse a shot for extraordinary accomplishment, but in a more reasonable way.

[Stillriledup]

There's a subtle difference between babying horses, seeking logical challenges, and spotting your horses in off the wall spots where there have little chance of winning or where the races aren't part of some logical progression.

For example, I would argue that Wise Dan should start in a some 1m or 1 1/8M races on the turf again this year. Then they could take a shot in a couple of middle distance races on dirt and/or synthetic for a challenge. Depending on how he does, then they could consider either stretching him out on turf (1 1/4) or running in the BC Classic later in the year. But they could always fall back to the Turf Mile again if he disappoints or looks like he doesn't want to stretch out.

A guy like Lukas would probably start with the Donn. No matter what he does, Dubai at 10F on synth would be next. Even if he got buried in Dubai, he'd wind up in the Met next. Then he'd ship out west for some 1 1/4 turf race. Then he'd be in the Gold Cup on his way to the BC Classic or BC Turf Classic no matter how he handled dirt or distance previously.

Every once in awhile some horse is going to come along and be good enough and versatile enough to stand up to that lunacy, but he'd ruin a bunch of campaigns also.

The idea is to find a scenario that would give the horse a shot for extraordinary accomplishment, but in a more reasonable way.

I agree with this post.

And i'd like to talk about your last sentence, "in a more reasonable way" i think the concept of "reason" might be replaced with just knowing your horse better than the general public. Know the EXACT talent level of the horse and what that horse is capable of doing, which classes he's capable of running in successfully and so on and so forth. I don't think its a lot to ask to expect DWL to know enough about his horses to spot them properly, to know when "enough is enough" and to know which horses can't race at the highest levels of the game and which ones can.

When you dance every dance with every horse you're bound to hit a homerun once in a while....but how many do you have to ruin to hit the homerun and is it worth it.

[iceknight]

Will any trainer ever be able to duplicate this type of resume......
You forgot the Travers!
1991, 1995 and 2013 (wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travers_Stakes#Winners_of_the_Travers_Stakes_since _1864) )

[wisconsin]

There's a subtle difference between babying horses, seeking logical challenges, and spotting your horses in off the wall spots where there have little chance of winning or where the races aren't part of some logical progression.

For example, I would argue that Wise Dan should start in a some 1m or 1 1/8M races on the turf again this year. Then they could take a shot in a couple of middle distance races on dirt and/or synthetic for a challenge. Depending on how he does, then they could consider either stretching him out on turf (1 1/4) or running in the BC Classic later in the year. But they could always fall back to the Turf Mile again if he disappoints or looks like he doesn't want to stretch out.

A guy like Lukas would probably start with the Donn. No matter what he does, Dubai at 10F on synth would be next. Even if he got buried in Dubai, he'd wind up in the Met next. Then he'd ship out west for some 1 1/4 turf race. Then he'd be in the Gold Cup on his way to the BC Classic or BC Turf Classic no matter how he handled dirt or distance previously.

Every once in awhile some horse is going to come along and be good enough and versatile enough to stand up to that lunacy, but he'd ruin a bunch of campaigns also.

The idea is to find a scenario that would give the horse a shot for extraordinary accomplishment, but in a more reasonable way.

What horse has he campaigned like this?

Has he ever been to Dubai? I can't recall the last horse he ran in the Met Mile. Such exaggeration.

Where are you on Joe Gluepot who can't figure out the right distance or surface for a cheap horse? :rolleyes:

[pele polo]

What's the line on Strong Mandate being sound by year's end?
Anyone?

I'd make it -2.00 No

Hopefully, he'll be retired to stud by then with a relatively minor injury.

"Precocious 2yo that peaked at Saratoga, and just never trained on."
Hmmmm......

Anyone know what happened to that good turf horse Optimizer ?
They were running him about every month into the early summer when they finally realized the horse needed a break,
and wasn't performing.
Hmmmm.....

Nice horse....runs good on soft turf, too.
He's no Wise Dan , but who is?
I'd like to see him make it back to the races, or make a stallion.

D. Wayne Lukas.
Legendary HOF trainer? Yes.
Especially with deep pocket owners like the late Gene Klein around.
Do you have to like everything about his M.O. with horses?
I think not.


Optimizer is back on Big Cap day in the Frank Kilroe.

Oxbow retiring was not Lukas' decision. If it was up t him he'd have been back this year.

If it was John Sheriffs or one of those types handling Optimzer and he had a break from late last August til this March it would be considered a freshening and they'd be praised for it.

Compared to today's standards he ran WTC and Optimizer into the ground yet they're still around as 4 & 5 year olds respectively and competing in grade 1s legitimately. He doesn't have as many horses now as some may think.

[iceknight]

What horse has he campaigned like this?

Has he ever been to Dubai? I can't recall the last horse he ran in the Met Mile. Such exaggeration. He has 3 met mile winners.. not recently though, from 90's

Where are you on Joe Gluepot who can't figure out the right distance or surface for a cheap horse? :rolleyes: I am not contesting your questions. Just making a remark.

[Mineshaft]

What horse has he campaigned like this?

Has he ever been to Dubai? I can't recall the last horse he ran in the Met Mile. Such exaggeration.

Where are you on Joe Gluepot who can't figure out the right distance or surface for a cheap horse? :rolleyes:






He was saying how Lukas spots horses aggressively He was being sarcastic in a funny way. Catch a grip u getting ur panties in an uproar.

[horses4courses]

Optimizer is back on Big Cap day in the Frank Kilroe.

Thanks :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

He was saying how Lukas spots horses aggressively He was being sarcastic in a funny way.

Yes. IMO he's often aggressive in ways that aren't logical given the way the horse is performing on the track to that point. There are times when you already know what you have and should back off and go to the appropriate class level, distance, and surface and stop going for glory or experimenting.

[Mineshaft]

Yes. IMO he's often aggressive in ways that aren't logical given the way the horse is performing on the track to that point. There are times when you already know what you have and should back off and go to the appropriate class level, distance, and surface and stop going for glory or experimenting.





Case in point-Unstoppable Colby



Go get em D Wayne.....

[classhandicapper]

Case in point-Unstoppable Colby



Go get em D Wayne.....

IMO....

Running that horse in the Smarty Jones isn't what I would have done. But given the field was soft for a purse that high, if he thought the horse was improving rapidly enough to hit the board it wasn't that bad an idea.

It turned into a wasted race though.

That horse might have broken his maiden 1 race sooner and then won or picked up some more money in a NW1 and developed further.

For every time he successfully pulls off that move into a stake, there will be 20 than turn out like this. And this wasn't even that bad a move.

So what's the ROI on that? That's what I am asking.

That horse is improving and still has a chance to be very good. I would try to find a NW1 or soft stake for his next start unless I was 100% sure he improved a lot. I would not throw him to the wolves trying to earn Derby points and potentially ruin him or waste another race.

[PaceAdvantage]

Case in point-Unstoppable Colby



Go get em D Wayne.....How many trainers in the game do you think would give their left arm to switch places with D Wayne? I'm betting quite a few...

[speed]

How many trainers in the game do you think would give their left arm to switch places with D Wayne? I'm betting quite a few...
You don't know how correct you are. Every time my trainer wants to make a comment on this board, i have to do the typing.

[Mineshaft]

How many trainers in the game do you think would give their left arm to switch places with D Wayne? I'm betting quite a few...




Im sure many trainers would like his stock. As far as how he trains and spots horses I would take 500 trainers over him any day.

[Mineshaft]

IMO....

Running that horse in the Smarty Jones isn't what I would have done. But given the field was soft for a purse that high, if he thought the horse was improving rapidly enough to hit the board it wasn't that bad an idea.

It turned into a wasted race though.

That horse might have broken his maiden 1 race sooner and then won or picked up some more money in a NW1 and developed further.

For every time he successfully pulls off that move into a stake, there will be 20 than turn out like this. And this wasn't even that bad a move.

So what's the ROI on that? That's what I am asking.

That horse is improving and still has a chance to be very good. I would try to find a NW1 or soft stake for his next start unless I was 100% sure he improved a lot. I would not throw him to the wolves trying to earn Derby points and potentially ruin him or waste another race.






Don't you think the race today (San Felipe) is a lot tougher race than the Smarty Jones? I know I do but good ole D Wayne thinks otherwise. Why not break the Maiden, win the N1X and then look for a tougher spot. Hell why not wait for the Rebel at Oaklawn insteading of spending 10K to ship the horse to Cali. Makes no sense.

[Relwob Owner]

Im sure many trainers would like his stock. As far as how he trains and spots horses I would take 500 trainers over him any day.

You lose SO much credibility with your hyperbole. Comments like this and calling him a goofball just come across as immature and ignorant and take away from any salient points you may have.

I am a huge Lukas fan and would mirror all of Pace's posts but like you said in an earlier post, we agree to disagree. That being said, Lukas's way of managing horses can be seen in Will Take Charge and I can't remember being as excited as I am for today's race. His strategy of being aggressive that you have so much of an issue with can be seen in WTC's campaign and led to this matchup being possible. Most other horses would be retired by now.

[classhandicapper]

Don't you think the race today (San Felipe) is a lot tougher race than the Smarty Jones? I know I do but good ole D Wayne thinks otherwise. Why not break the Maiden, win the N1X and then look for a tougher spot. Hell why not wait for the Rebel at Oaklawn insteading of spending 10K to ship the horse to Cali. Makes no sense.

I agree with you.

Unless he knows for sure the horse has moved forward a lot since his last start (which is certainly possible), I would run in a NW1 given that horse's PPs so far. Even if the horse has moved forward a lot and he's confident he will be competitive in a stake, why ship to CA when there stakes right at home? It's not like the crop out there is terrible.

Lukas is a hall of fame trainer with incredible accomplishments. Part of it was stock, part of was great horsemanship, part of it was hall of fame assistants, and part of it was the upside of his aggressiveness. But IMHO, some people evaluate him based on his successes without acknowledging his shortcomings, one of which is being too aggressive, wasting starts, and running horses when they are clearly done.

It's not that different among handicappers.

If one guy put 100K into the place pools and made 10K and some other guy put 100k into trifectas, supers, pick 3s 4s, 6s etc... and made 2k, everyone would be talking about the latter because of the major scores and longshots he picked along the way while the first guy was cashing 80% of the time at $2.80. But whose results are better?

If the horse runs very well his fans will remember it. If the horse is never in contention it will be forgotten. Most people are searching for fame and glory.

[PhantomOnTour]

Does anyone think Hofmans is being a "goofball" for entering Schoolofhardrocks off a MSW win in Aug and no races since?

The Lukas horse in this race doesn't seem like an odd placement.
By the way - did you follow along and play that horse 2nd time over the OP track and catch the 9-2 winner? That's the time to bet D Wayne !

[Mineshaft]

Does anyone think Hofmans is being a "goofball" for entering Schoolofhardrocks off a MSW win in Aug and no races since?

The Lukas horse in this race doesn't seem like an odd placement.
By the way - did you follow along and play that horse 2nd time over the OP track and catch the 9-2 winner? That's the time to bet D Wayne !






when I do bet I leave him out. He doesn't win enough for me to bet his horses. Now if you do bet him every once in awhile he will bring home a nice price horse. But not for me.

[classhandicapper]

Does anyone think Hofmans is being a "goofball" for entering Schoolofhardrocks off a MSW win in Aug and no races since?

The Lukas horse in this race doesn't seem like an odd placement.
By the way - did you follow along and play that horse 2nd time over the OP track and catch the 9-2 winner? That's the time to bet D Wayne !

I don't mind that one.

After you get past the top few, this race is not that strong. Schoolofhardrocks won impressively right off the bat in decent time and has had a long time to develop. Now he's working like a top horse. So if he's ready and can handle dirt, I could see him giving a good account of himself and turning out to be a very good horse.

I'd rather see him have a prep in an ALW race also, but he feels like less of a reach and he's already in CA.

[Mineshaft]

Add Kristen Mulhall as a trainer that doesn't know where to spot her horses

[Stillriledup]

Does anyone think Hofmans is being a "goofball" for entering Schoolofhardrocks off a MSW win in Aug and no races since?

The Lukas horse in this race doesn't seem like an odd placement.
By the way - did you follow along and play that horse 2nd time over the OP track and catch the 9-2 winner? That's the time to bet D Wayne !

No. The horse was 9-2, a major contender, and looked like he could be any kind of horse on tape.

[pele polo]

For those saying he should have tried a N1x with Colby, look in the condition books of all the major tracks and see how many you come across for 3yo's. Gulfstream cards the most. Beyond GP you won't f'ind many. How many horses in these 3yo stakes are coming out of Allowance races.

[Mineshaft]

For those saying he should have tried a N1x with Colby, look in the condition books of all the major tracks and see how many you come across for 3yo's. Gulfstream cards the most. Beyond GP you won't f'ind many. How many horses in these 3yo stakes are coming out of Allowance races.





You cant be serious can you?


N1X at Oaklawn March 16th Purse 61K

Learn the Game.......

[pele polo]

Learn the game? Lol, ok.

[Mineshaft]

Learn the game? Lol, ok.







N1X March 16th Oaklawn what more you want? restricted to 3 yr olds

[maclr11]

In the grand scheme of things does it really matter. Lukas does not measure success in dollars. He measures in G1 wins, major races wins, GSW wins. The Triple Crown and Breeders Cup and once again you can't make the Derby if your not in the races, so he took a shot with Colby in the San Felipe, for those of you saying why not the Rebel, I remind you Strong Mandate I believe will be in the Rebel.

[Mineshaft]

In the grand scheme of things does it really matter. Lukas does not measure success in dollars. He measures in G1 wins, major races wins, GSW wins. The Triple Crown and Breeders Cup and once again you can't make the Derby if your not in the races, so he took a shot with Colby in the San Felipe, for those of you saying why not the Rebel, I remind you Strong Mandate I believe will be in the Rebel.





so he went to Cali to take on Bayern? Strong Mandate and Bayern are 2 nice horses so whats the difference. yea I know Bayern was scratched. The horse looked like he wanted to lay down and take a nap when they hit the stretch.

[Mineshaft]

Did Unstoppable Colby cross the finish line yet anyone know?

[TheEdge07]

[QUOTE=Mineshaft]Did Unstoppable Colby cross the finish line yet anyone know?[/QUOT

Ask Satish about D.Wayne..his favorite quote i spend close to 200 million on my degree in horse racing....

[Mineshaft]

Vigorish back in at Oaklawn MSW

[maclr11]

so he went to Cali to take on Bayern? Strong Mandate and Bayern are 2 nice horses so whats the difference. yea I know Bayern was scratched. The horse looked like he wanted to lay down and take a nap when they hit the stretch.

No cuz Strong Mandate is his horse? Trainers try to avoid running doubles when they can. Can't have 2 winners in the same race.

[PaceAdvantage]

Ask Satish about D.Wayne..his favorite quote i spend close to 200 million on my degree in horse racing....Let me ask you. All of Shug's owners, Mott's owners, Sherriffs' owners...they're all in the black, right?

:lol:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Let me ask you. All of Shug's owners, Mott's owners, Sherriffs' owners...they're all in the black, right?

:lol:

TheEdge has NO clue what he's talking about. He made this same claim ($220 mm) last August. I responded with the following:

"Satish Sanan? Padua Stables? Help me with the math - $220 mm? First, didn't he part company with Lukas in 2001? After only 4 years in the business (at least on a grand scale)? I thought it was a case of businessman with a lot of money and very little knowledge of the racing game. Granted he didn't have much luck with Lukas, but $220 mm? Maybe you're talking about another Satish?"

What was TheEdge's response? I'm still waiting. I'm not even a Lukas fan, but I don't appreciate people just making up crap.

[nijinski]

I'm wondering what's net for Optimizer . Sorry but that was a tough spot to come back from off that layoff .

[mountainman]

Let me ask you. All of Shug's owners, Mott's owners, Sherriffs' owners...they're all in the black, right?

:lol:

I've met darn few owners and trainers in my life whose general attitude wasn't: "Well, back before I'd learned it ALL..." Tons of "insiders" who couldn't decode half the symbols in a racing form truly believe an owner's or trainer's license is tantamount to a master's degree in horseracing.

[TheEdge07]

TheEdge has NO clue what he's talking about. He made this same claim ($220 mm) last August. I responded with the following:

"Satish Sanan? Padua Stables? Help me with the math - $220 mm? First, didn't he part company with Lukas in 2001? After only 4 years in the business (at least on a grand scale)? I thought it was a case of businessman with a lot of money and very little knowledge of the racing game. Granted he didn't have much luck with Lukas, but $220 mm? Maybe you're talking about another Satish?"

What was TheEdge's response? I'm still waiting. I'm not even a Lukas fan, but I don't appreciate people just making up crap.


Made it up...lol..yep i thanked him for his stock before it went public..Been to his office several timesin Clearwater before he sold his company,and basically spend everyday at the track when he attended early 2000s..
You stated i said a simliar statement a few months ago,please post it..Ok he didnt cost 200 cost about 100 all together.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Made it up...lol..yep i thanked him for his stock before it went public..Been to his office several timesin Clearwater before he sold his company,and basically spend everyday at the track when he attended early 2000s..
You stated i said a simliar statement a few months ago,please post it..Ok he didnt cost 200 cost about 100 all together.

First it was $220 mm, then somewhere along the way it turned into $200 mm and now it's $100 mm? Which is it? Again, the timeline is four years of big-time ownership under Lukas. I'd like to know how he lost $220 mm or $200 mm or $100 mm (that last number is somewhat plausible)? Didn't he build a large farm in Ocala? Is that cost all on Lukas?

Your friend's problem wasn't Mr. Lukas. He was a successful businessman who assumed that business success would easily translate into the racing world. It didn't, at least not in the early years (I'm unsure of his current situation--please update us). I don't think your friend would even disagree with my assertion. Did you read his interview in the Blood Horse in the early/mid-2000s?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I've met darn few owners and trainers in my life whose general attitude wasn't: "Well, back before I'd learned it ALL..." Tons of "insiders" who couldn't decode half the symbols in a racing form truly believe an owner's or trainer's license is tantamount to a master's degree in horseracing.

One can never be cynical/skeptical enough when buying/claiming/racing horses.

[lamboguy]

tomorrow starts the under tack 2yo in training sale at OBS. i like 2 horses that i am not buying hip 60 and hip 192

[classhandicapper]

Let me ask you. All of Shug's owners, Mott's owners, Sherriffs' owners...they're all in the black, right?

:lol:

It's tough for any owner to make money in this game. I don't think that's the appropriate question to ask. But if we had ROI stats for various trainer/owner combinations that included "quality of stock" I think the results would be enlightening. Some of the names on the bottom of the list would probably surprise all of us (and vice versa).

[Saratoga_Mike]

tomorrow starts the under tack 2yo in training sale at OBS. i like 2 horses that i am not buying hip 60 and hip 192

Hip 60 - great looking filly.

[TheEdge07]

First it was $220 mm, then somewhere along the way it turned into $200 mm and now it's $100 mm? Which is it? Again, the timeline is four years of big-time ownership under Lukas. I'd like to know how he lost $220 mm or $200 mm or $100 mm (that last number is somewhat plausible)? Didn't he build a large farm in Ocala? Is that cost all on Lukas?

Your friend's problem wasn't Mr. Lukas. He was a successful businessman who assumed that business success would easily translate into the racing world. It didn't, at least not in the early years (I'm unsure of his current situation--please update us). I don't think your friend would even disagree with my assertion. Did you read his interview in the Blood Horse in the early/mid-2000s?

SM i agree with your point...
He was a successful businessman who assumed that business success would easily translate into the racing world..
The ocala farm is in Auction State of the Art...
According to him and by many close related he lost over $200 million..
Lukas is a business man first...

[Mineshaft]

Vigorish ran 6th at 8/1 beaten 20 lengths in a MSW at Oaklawn yesterday.




Is it safe to assume he has fawked this horse all up?

[PaceAdvantage]

Vigorish ran 6th at 8/1 beaten 20 lengths in a MSW at Oaklawn yesterday.




Is it safe to assume he has fawked this horse all up?Is it safe to assume you will only be pointing out his not so good runners? Which trainer (one you hold in high esteem) should I report on in a similar fashion? Your choice.

[Mineshaft]

Is it safe to assume you will only be pointing out his not so good runners? Which trainer (one you hold in high esteem) should I report on in a similar fashion? Your choice.





Pletcher
Mott



Im not pointing out his not so good runners. Im pointing out horses which he places over his head then ruins them. And its not just Lukas its several trainers and I have no problem pointing them out.

[lamboguy]

i am going to give you the trainer that is firing on all cylinders now and i would expect a big year from him. KIARAM MCLAUGHLIN's horses are firing.

i can't wait to see his 2 yo's this year.

he is not even in the top 10 at Gulfstream now!

[wisconsin]

[QUOTE=Mineshaft]Im not pointing out his not so good runners.[QUOTE]

This one obviously IS one of his not so good runners. Lot's of horses are spotted with good intentions, and then continue to run up the track regardless of the company.

[PaceAdvantage]

Pletcher
Mott



Im not pointing out his not so good runners. Im pointing out horses which he places over his head then ruins them. And its not just Lukas its several trainers and I have no problem pointing them out.First off, "over their head" is very subjective. Even in this very thread, debate has come your way as to whether or not the horse you claim has been placed "over their head" is actually running over its head. And that debate didn't come from me.

Unless a 3yo has tons of starts, it's a little difficult to ascertain pre-race whether or not the horse is in way over its head. After the fact, yeah, that whole armchair thing is pretty simple.

And second, why is it a given that when a horse is overmatched in a race, it is ruined? That just plain doesn't happen nearly as often as you seem to imply.

[Stillriledup]

First off, "over their head" is very subjective. Even in this very thread, debate has come your way as to whether or not the horse you claim has been placed "over their head" is actually running over its head. And that debate didn't come from me.

Unless a 3yo has tons of starts, it's a little difficult to ascertain pre-race whether or not the horse is in way over its head. After the fact, yeah, that whole armchair thing is pretty simple.

And second, why is it a given that when a horse is overmatched in a race, it is ruined? That just plain doesn't happen nearly as often as you seem to imply.

My point was that Lukas, being a Hall of Famer and being with the horse on a daily basis, should be able to know BEFORE the fact....anyone of us armchair QBs can see if a horse is outclassed after the race, but he's supposed to know more than us and he's supposed to be able to know this stuff before actually seeing how the horse races vs top competition. If he doesnt know, he's just like the rest of us, people who can watch tape and determine for ourselves where a horse fits.

[classhandicapper]

This whole "over his head" debate is going to be kind of subjective. Trainers may have different objectives. Some may be very conservative and try to spot most of their horses where they think they have a decent shot to win and others might be more aggressive and go after bigger purses if they think they have a some chance to hit the board or maybe a win if everything breaks right.

An objective way to measure this might be the percentage of horses he sends out at very long odds and what the ROI is on them.

If a lot of a trainer's horses go off at very long odds and they keep getting buried, then he's probably doing something wrong. There will be exceptions for small time trainers that only have very low quality horses. They can't ship out looking for an easy spot at a lower quality track. But top trainers tend to move those types of horses out of their barn.

Not perfect, but maybe it's something to look at with some rules.

[Stillriledup]

This whole "over his head" debate is going to be kind of subjective. Trainers may have different objectives. Some may be very conservative and try to spot most of their horses where they think they have a decent shot to win and others might be more aggressive and go after bigger purses if they think they have a some chance to hit the board or maybe a win if everything breaks right.

An objective way to measure this might be the percentage of horses he sends out at very long odds and what the ROI is on them.

If a lot of a trainer's horses go off at very long odds and they keep getting buried, then he's probably doing something wrong. There will be exceptions for small time trainers that only have very low quality horses. They can't ship out looking for an easy spot at a lower quality track. But top trainers tend to move those types of horses out of their barn.

Not perfect, but maybe it's something to look at with some rules.


While has had some success with big longshots in Graded races, he has had a LOT of horses who got destroyed in the higher classes too....which can lead one to believe its just a stabfest and he really doesn't know any more than any one of us. In other words, his management of these horses doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason, he's just stabbing, gambling and entering as many horses as he can in as many big races as he can and praying.

If you're D Wayne Lukas, why not take advantage of the knowledge you have of the 'inner workings' of your own horses and be a little better at 'entering'. Seems like he's not taking advantage of the info that he has that we do not.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If you're D Wayne Lukas, why not take advantage of the knowledge you have of the 'inner workings' of your own horses and be a little better at 'entering'. Seems like he's not taking advantage of the info that he has that we do not.

You think trainers have magical knowledge of the exact potential of a lightly raced horse? They do not.

I do believe Lukas tends to place his horses too aggressively, but your assertion is generally false.

[classhandicapper]

Some trainers are probably bad handicappers and don't even know when their horses are overmatched. If that's the case, a set of decent speed figures would at least help.

[Stillriledup]

You think trainers have magical knowledge of the exact potential of a lightly raced horse? They do not.

I do believe Lukas tends to place his horses too aggressively, but your assertion is generally false.

Why would it need to be "magical knowledge"? Shouldnt DWL know more about his own horse than me or you?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Why would it need to be "magical knowledge"? Shouldnt DWL know more about his own horse than me or you?

Confirmation/soundness/attitude (feeling well/dull)? Absolutely. Exact potential? No.

[Mineshaft]

The horse ran 6 times and the best he could do was a 2nd. Then he puts him in a stakes race and runs up the track. Then he enters him in a MSW where the horse belongs and the horse is 8/1. Why wasn't this horse at least 3/1 if the horse had potential? How long does the horse have to run before Lukas realizes his potential? The horse got beat 20 lengths for MSW. Not 2 lengths 20 freakin lengths.


Bottom line this horse was way over its head in the stakes race.

[classhandicapper]

Last 5 years picked at random. I just happened to be looking at the 3yo race at Oaklawn tomorrow at the time. Obviously, we need many more comparisons.


Lukas

Total starts = 1687
30 - 1 or higher = 195
ROI = 0% (no wins)


Asmussen

Total starts = 2062
30 -1 or higher = 120
ROI = .55

[Dad4Gloria]

[QUOTE=taxicab]Will any trainer ever be able to duplicate this type of resume......

Kentucky Derby
Winning Colors (1988)
Thunder Gulch (1995)
Grindstone (1996)
Charismatic (1999)

Preakness Stakes
Codex (1980)
Tank's Prospect (1985)
Tabasco Cat (1994)
Timber Country (1995)
Charismatic (1999)
Oxbow (2013)

Belmont Stakes
Tabasco Cat (1994)
Thunder Gulch (1995)
Editor's Note (1996)
Commendable (2000)

Breeders' Cup Classic
Cat Thief (1999)

Breeders' Cup Distaff
Life's Magic (1985)
Lady's Secret (1986)
Sacahuista (1987)
Spain (2000)

Breeders' Cup Mile
Steinlen (1989)

Breeders' Cup Sprint
Gulch (1988)
Orientate (2002)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile
Capote (1986)
Success Express (1987)
Is It True (1988)
Timber Country (1994)
Boston Harbor (1996)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies
Twilight Ridge (1985)
Open Mind (1988)
Flanders (1994)
Cash Run (1999)
Folklore (2005)

Breeders' Cup Juvenile Sprint
Hightail (2012)



Is this my old buddy Taxicab from W2W, TVG, and allabouthorseracing? Give my regards to Tomac and Garland Tex and "others".
Sorry to go off topic.

[Stillriledup]

Confirmation/soundness/attitude (feeling well/dull)? Absolutely. Exact potential? No.

nobody is going to know exact potential, but you can have a good gauge of potential if you are the trainer....but it seems as if he doesnt have any clue about potential and just enters the next biggest race with whoever he can.

If on a scale of 1 to 100, a 100 is knowing exact potential and 1 is knowing nothing at all about the horse, shouldnt DWL be in the 70-90 percent range of knowing potential? He enters his horses as if he has just as much knowledge of potential as the guy in the grandstand with holes in his shoes.

[Mineshaft]

"Ireland"




Entered in 2 spots this weekend. Why did he enter this horse in a Grade 1 when he got beat 15 lengths in a Grade 3 at Oaklawn?

[Stillriledup]

"Ireland"




Entered in 2 spots this weekend. Why did he enter this horse in a Grade 1 when he got beat 15 lengths in a Grade 3 at Oaklawn?

So he can get his clients a dining room table with a view?

[PaceAdvantage]

"Ireland"




Entered in 2 spots this weekend. Why did he enter this horse in a Grade 1 when he got beat 15 lengths in a Grade 3 at Oaklawn?You forgot to mention D. Wayne won the Grade 2 Mervin Muniz at the Fair Grounds recently...a turf race...and with a 5yo horse named Skyring...he actually beat Bill Mott who finished second...

Funny how that missed your radar...you're so dialed in on Lukas, I was waiting for you to post about it...but alas and alack...I guess when it doesn't fit your narrative, you simply discard it... :lol:

[Mineshaft]

You forgot to mention D. Wayne won the Grade 2 Mervin Muniz at the Fair Grounds recently...a turf race...and with a 5yo horse named Skyring...he actually beat Bill Mott who finished second...

Funny how that missed your radar...you're so dialed in on Lukas, I was waiting for you to post about it...but alas and alack...I guess when it doesn't fit your narrative, you simply discard it... :lol:






Actually I didn't miss it I just didn't post for the simple fact that the horse belonged in the race. The horse ran 3rd in the Fair Grounds Handicap the race before. It was in a good spot. It wasn't a crazy spot that Lukas put the horse in therefore I didn't post the win. But if you want I will post all his wins if you want. Let me know.



Courageous Julie is in at Oaklawn in the Fantasy Stakes. Shes 30/1. Just finished 5th in the Honeybee beaten 6 lengths. Im not crazy about the spot here but I can live with it. The Fantasy is a lot tougher spot. She will have to run better than she did in the Honeybee.


Ireland is another story. Lets see where he runs this horse. If he runs this horse in the Ashland I will be all over him like white on rice. Hes 5/2 in an Allowance/Optional and hes 30/1 in a Grade 1. Lets see what he does.

[SandyW]

Actually I didn't miss it I just didn't post for the simple fact that the horse belonged in the race. The horse ran 3rd in the Fair Grounds Handicap the race before. It was in a good spot. It wasn't a crazy spot that Lukas put the horse in therefore I didn't post the win. But if you want I will post all his wins if you want. Let me know.



Courageous Julie is in at Oaklawn in the Fantasy Stakes. Shes 30/1. Just finished 5th in the Honeybee beaten 6 lengths. Im not crazy about the spot here but I can live with it. The Fantasy is a lot tougher spot. She will have to run better than she did in the Honeybee.


Ireland is another story. Lets see where he runs this horse. If he runs this horse in the Ashland I will be all over him like white on rice. Hes 5/2 in an Allowance/Optional and hes 30/1 in a Grade 1. Lets see what he does.

Let me know when you find a horse that can read the tote board.
If your not in them you can't win them.

[PaceAdvantage]

Actually I didn't miss it I just didn't post for the simple fact that the horse belonged in the race. The horse ran 3rd in the Fair Grounds Handicap the race before. It was in a good spot. It wasn't a crazy spot that Lukas put the horse in therefore I didn't post the win. But if you want I will post all his wins if you want. Let me know.He paid 17.40 in a field of 5...not exactly confidence inspiring pre-race.

Anyway, I'm not sure what your goal is here. We all know (at least anyone who has been at this a while) that Lukas is a trainer who isn't afraid to take the shot. He probably attracts like-minded owners.

When you do this, often times you will fail...miserably.

Tell us something we don't already know.

I think where we differ is that you think taking a shot with a horse, especially a young, developing horse, is somehow detrimental to their long term success.

I don't buy that logic. Not saying it never happens, but it shouldn't be elevated to the level of gospel.

[Terry1627]

He won the Belmont Stakes with a horse called Commendable who was beaten in a maiden claiming event at lowly River Downs. If I remember correctly the only win the horse had on its resume before winning the Belmont was a maiden win. Pat Day rode the horse which surprisingly only paid in the $30.00 range. Take away the connections angle and you would probably of had over a $100.00 pay out on the win end.

[CryingForTheHorses]

IMO D Wayne has nothing to prove to anyone,He has won the big races,He know what the pressure is like,AND he has heard every excuse in the book from the jocks and has given his owners great moments in racing. He has outdone triple what many will ever do in this business.He comes from a old school of horseman that are dying off quickly.I myself could only wish to ever do just 1/4 in racing that DW has...A trainer is only as good as his horses...

[Stillriledup]

He paid 17.40 in a field of 5...not exactly confidence inspiring pre-race.

Anyway, I'm not sure what your goal is here. We all know (at least anyone who has been at this a while) that Lukas is a trainer who isn't afraid to take the shot. He probably attracts like-minded owners.

When you do this, often times you will fail...miserably.

Tell us something we don't already know.

I think where we differ is that you think taking a shot with a horse, especially a young, developing horse, is somehow detrimental to their long term success.

I don't buy that logic. Not saying it never happens, but it shouldn't be elevated to the level of gospel.

The discussion here, at least on my end, isnt weather he's afraid to "take the shot' its why isnt he better at taking the shot. In other words, KNOW YOUR HORSE and he runs a barn as if all horses are equal and he really can't separate the good ones from the average ones, so he tosses them all in graded races to see what happens. Sure, kudos for taking the shot, but he's probably ruined a few decent horses by treating them like stars and he should have known which ones were "Special" and which ones were not. Seems like he doesnt know (or care).

[PaceAdvantage]

Sure, kudos for taking the shot, but he's probably ruined a few decent horses by treating them like stars and he should have known which ones were "Special" and which ones were not. Seems like he doesnt know (or care).Yeah, his record clearly screams of a trainer who doesn't know his horses... :rolleyes:

[Mineshaft]

He paid 17.40 in a field of 5...not exactly confidence inspiring pre-race.

Anyway, I'm not sure what your goal is here. We all know (at least anyone who has been at this a while) that Lukas is a trainer who isn't afraid to take the shot. He probably attracts like-minded owners.

When you do this, often times you will fail...miserably.

Tell us something we don't already know.

I think where we differ is that you think taking a shot with a horse, especially a young, developing horse, is somehow detrimental to their long term success.

I don't buy that logic. Not saying it never happens, but it shouldn't be elevated to the level of gospel.






That's where we differ because throwing young horses to the wolves will ruin a horse.


Lets see how Ireland and Viogorish do in there careers because my opinion is he threw both to the wolves.


Ireland ran dead last at 66/1 in the Grade 1 Ashland. The horse never should of never been entered plain and simple. How can Calumet farm keep letting Lukas do this? They must have an endless supply of cash.

[pele polo]

That's where we differ because throwing young horses to the wolves will ruin a horse.


Lets see how Ireland and Viogorish do in there careers because my opinion is he threw both to the wolves.


Ireland ran dead last at 66/1 in the Grade 1 Ashland. The horse never should of never been entered plain and simple. How can Calumet farm keep letting Lukas do this? They must have an endless supply of cash.


Calumet just won the Preakness last year (in their very early existence as far as Kelley is concerned). They also won a graded stake a week ago with a horse sired by a stallion Kelley has a large interest in. None of the other trainers Calumet employs has won a stakes race.

I don't think they're complaining yet.

[Mineshaft]

Add Jose Fernandez to the list of trainer who keep on wanting to run in stakes races that have no business in stakes races.

Check out Tour Guide in the 8th race at Keeneland Saturday. Does he really belong in this race?

[dannyhill]

You guys crack me up. You believe that it is the trainer who has total control. Certain owners love entering in stakes races. If it wasn't Lukas it would be with a different trainer. Do you believe if a trainer time and time again entered horses in spots the owners were totally against that the horses would still be in his shedrow.

[Mineshaft]

You guys crack me up. You believe that it is the trainer who has total control. Certain owners love entering in stakes races. If it wasn't Lukas it would be with a different trainer. Do you believe if a trainer time and time again entered horses in spots the owners were totally against that the horses would still be in his shedrow.



Yes I do believe trainers enter in the wrong spots and owners are too dumb to see it. Happens all the time.

[Mineshaft]

Lukas won a stakes race today-Horse was 5/2. In the right spot. See what happens when you put horses in the right spots?

[Stillriledup]

You guys crack me up. You believe that it is the trainer who has total control. Certain owners love entering in stakes races. If it wasn't Lukas it would be with a different trainer. Do you believe if a trainer time and time again entered horses in spots the owners were totally against that the horses would still be in his shedrow.

But if this was true, wouldnt we have seen at least one time where Lukas "did the right thing" and skipped a spot because it was "too tough" in favor of an easier spot? You would think that at least one time, either he or his owner would suggest "lets skip the Ky Derby and run in this little 100k stake the week after, we can be 3-5 in there and romp" but no, its never happened in the guy's entire career, he's always chose the toughest spot available.

[Dahoss2002]

But if this was true, wouldnt we have seen at least one time where Lukas "did the right thing" and skipped a spot because it was "too tough" in favor of an easier spot? You would think that at least one time, either he or his owner would suggest "lets skip the Ky Derby and run in this little 100k stake the week after, we can be 3-5 in there and romp" but no, its never happened in the guy's entire career, he's always chose the toughest spot available.
Are you playing the Arkansas Derby today? Make sure you leave Wayne's horse out. I am hoping his horses "fire" today.

[Stillriledup]

Are you playing the Arkansas Derby today? Make sure you leave Wayne's horse out. I am hoping his horses "fire" today.

No, i don't bet Oaklawn.

[horses4courses]

So, what's next for da big hoss?
Lexington in a week, or the Derby Trial?

[Dahoss2002]

No, i don't bet Oaklawn.
Wish I didn't today. Thank god Gulfstream and Keeneland bailed me out.

[Dahoss2002]

So, what's next for da big hoss?
Lexington in a week, or the Derby Trial?
Wish you woulda told me bout the 1 horse. Don't be so secretive in the future.

[horses4courses]

Wish you woulda told me bout the 1 horse. Don't be so secretive in the future.

Yeah, we kept the lid on that one pretty good, alright....... :rolleyes:

[Mineshaft]

Unstoppable Colby ran 5th in a Allowance race beaten 10 lengths yesterday.




Doneeeeeeee......................

[PaceAdvantage]

Keep us posted, especially if he becomes "undoneeeeeee."

[Thebigguy]

Shitty thread IMO. The guy is a legend, get over it.

[andtheyreoff]

Unstoppable Colby ran 5th in a Allowance race beaten 10 lengths yesterday.




Doneeeeeeee......................

Whoa, he ran a n/w1x eligible horse in a n/w1x race. What a madman.

[Mineshaft]

Whoa, he ran a n/w1x eligible horse in a n/w1x race. What a madman.





Its the 2 stakes races before the N1X that im talking about. Should of ran him in the N1X after the Maiden win. Hes ruining the horse plain and simple.

[pele polo]

Its the 2 stakes races before the N1X that im talking about. Should of ran him in the N1X after the Maiden win. Hes ruining the horse plain and simple.

You're ruining your credibility

[Mineshaft]

You're ruining your credibility




Yea ok.... the numbers dont lie

[SandyW]

Whoa, he ran a n/w1x eligible horse in a n/w1x race. What a madman.

Some madman we got here:

Career wins Quarter Horse racing: 739


Thoroughbred flat racing:

4,686+ Wins & (ongoing)

As of 2014-01-26 Major racing wins, honours and awards

Major racing wins American Classics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Classic_Races) / Breeders' Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup) wins:
Kentucky Derby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Derby)
(1988, 1995, 1996, 1999)
Preakness Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preakness_Stakes)
(1980, 1985, 1994, 1995, 1999, 2013)
Belmont Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmont_Stakes)
(1994, 1995, 1996, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile_Fillies)
(1985, 1988, 1994, 1999, 2005)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile)
(1986, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1996)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile_Sprint)
(2012)
Breeders' Cup Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Sprint)
(1988, 2002)
Breeders' Cup Turf Mile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Turf_Mile)
(1989)
Breeders' Cup Distaff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Ladies%27_Classic)
(1985, 1986, 1987, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Classic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Classic)
(1999) Racing awards Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Award_for_Outstanding_Trainer)
(1985, 1986, 1987, 1994)
U.S. Champion Trainer by wins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Champion_Thoroughbred_Trainer_by_win s)
(1987-1990)
U.S. Leading stakes-winning trainer (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_Leading_stakes-winning_trainer&action=edit&redlink=1) (1985-1992)
U.S. Champion Trainer by earnings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Champion_Thoroughbred_Trainer_by_ear nings)
(1983-1992, 1994-1997)
John W. Galbreath Equine Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_W._Galbreath_Equine_Award&action=edit&redlink=1) (1998) Honours United States' Racing Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum_of_Racing_and_Hall_of_Fame) (1999)
American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Quarter_Horse_Hall_of_Fame) (2007)
Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Award_for_Outstanding_Trainer) (1985, 1986, 1987, 1994)
Eclipse Award of Merit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Award_of_Merit)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._Wayne_Lukas#cite_note-merit-2) Significant horses Trainer of 23 world champion Quarter horses
Other Thoroughbred flat racing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_racing) horses:
Azeri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri_%28horse%29), Cara Rafaela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cara_Rafaela), Corporate Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Report), Criminal Type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Type), Dance Floor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_Floor), Dynaformer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynaformer), Effervescing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effervescing_%28horse%29), Farma Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farma_Way), Go And Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_And_Go), Golden Attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Attraction), Grand Slam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_%28horse%29), Honour and Glory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_and_Glory), Landaluce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landaluce), North Sider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sider), River Memories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Memories), Serena's Song (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serena%27s_Song_%28horse%29), Sharp Cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Cat), Southern Halo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Halo), Star of Cozzene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Cozzene), Tamarisk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamarisk_%28horse%29), Terlingua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terlingua_%28horse%29), Will Take Charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Take_Charge)

[Stillriledup]

Some madman we got here:

Career wins Quarter Horse racing: 739


Thoroughbred flat racing:

4,686+ Wins & (ongoing)

As of 2014-01-26 Major racing wins, honours and awards

Major racing wins American Classics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Classic_Races) / Breeders' Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup) wins:
Kentucky Derby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Derby)
(1988, 1995, 1996, 1999)
Preakness Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preakness_Stakes)
(1980, 1985, 1994, 1995, 1999, 2013)
Belmont Stakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belmont_Stakes)
(1994, 1995, 1996, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile_Fillies)
(1985, 1988, 1994, 1999, 2005)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile)
(1986, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1996)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Juvenile_Sprint)
(2012)
Breeders' Cup Sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Sprint)
(1988, 2002)
Breeders' Cup Turf Mile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Turf_Mile)
(1989)
Breeders' Cup Distaff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Ladies%27_Classic)
(1985, 1986, 1987, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Classic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeders%27_Cup_Classic)
(1999) Racing awards Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Award_for_Outstanding_Trainer)
(1985, 1986, 1987, 1994)
U.S. Champion Trainer by wins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Champion_Thoroughbred_Trainer_by_win s)
(1987-1990)
U.S. Leading stakes-winning trainer (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_Leading_stakes-winning_trainer&action=edit&redlink=1) (1985-1992)
U.S. Champion Trainer by earnings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Champion_Thoroughbred_Trainer_by_ear nings)
(1983-1992, 1994-1997)
John W. Galbreath Equine Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_W._Galbreath_Equine_Award&action=edit&redlink=1) (1998) Honours United States' Racing Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum_of_Racing_and_Hall_of_Fame) (1999)
American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Quarter_Horse_Hall_of_Fame) (2007)
Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Award_for_Outstanding_Trainer) (1985, 1986, 1987, 1994)
Eclipse Award of Merit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Award_of_Merit)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._Wayne_Lukas#cite_note-merit-2) Significant horses Trainer of 23 world champion Quarter horses
Other Thoroughbred flat racing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_racing) horses:
Azeri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeri_%28horse%29), Cara Rafaela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cara_Rafaela), Corporate Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Report), Criminal Type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Type), Dance Floor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_Floor), Dynaformer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynaformer), Effervescing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effervescing_%28horse%29), Farma Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farma_Way), Go And Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_And_Go), Golden Attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Attraction), Grand Slam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_%28horse%29), Honour and Glory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_and_Glory), Landaluce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landaluce), North Sider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sider), River Memories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Memories), Serena's Song (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serena%27s_Song_%28horse%29), Sharp Cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Cat), Southern Halo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Halo), Star of Cozzene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Cozzene), Tamarisk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamarisk_%28horse%29), Terlingua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terlingua_%28horse%29), Will Take Charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Take_Charge)

So essentially you're saying that people with tons of career achievements can't ever make mistakes? This a thread about him "entering to enter" i don't think anyone is disputing that he's one of the worst offenders at entering on big days just because they're "big days".

[SandyW]

So essentially you're saying that people with tons of career achievements can't ever make mistakes? This a thread about him "entering to enter" i don't think anyone is disputing that he's one of the worst offenders at entering on big days just because they're "big days".

If your not in them, you can't win them !!!!!!!!!!

Who are we to judge when it is not our money ??

[Stillriledup]

If your not in them, you can't win them !!!!!!!!!!

Who are we to judge when it is not our money ??


We bet these races, we handicap the sport, we analyze everyone and everything in the game, its part of the puzzle, essentially, trainers, jocks, owners are "bit players" in the huge 'chess match" that is handicapping.

We are analyzing DWL as a "handicapping factor" its nothing personal, he is what he is, he's done what he's done and every handicapper can factor in all that he knows about DWL and how he runs his barn and enters his horses. Nobody cares that he won hundreds of millions in purses, has won big races, that doesn't help any of us pick the winner of the next race that is running nor does it help us analyze his next entrant at whatever track that might be.

We are 'judging' from a handicapping perspective, not a personal one and you're right, he can do whatever he wants with his money, his horses and his owners horses, but whatever it is that he DOES do is something that many of us are watching and using as a handicapping angle or factor in our never ending quest to select the winner of the very next race we happen to bet.

Now, to give you an example on Will Take Charge, when he ran on Derby weekend, knowing DWLs past history of wanting to run and enter on big days, that is a handicapping factor...you have to consider that when you are making your wagers, you have to ask "is Lukas the type of trainer who will only run them when they're ready to race their best, or is he the type of trainer who might rush one back so his owners can get a dining room table and have one of their horses running on the big day? If you didnt ask yourself these questions, you might not be as good as someone who did.

You can do whatever you want with that info and use it however you like, serious handicappers don't get into personal stuff with the participants, its all just part of the handicapping puzzle.

Bettors who let the "humans" get into their heads are not as good as the bettors who realize that the horse is the main factor and the humans are just bit players in a game called HORSE racing.

[clocker7]

It's one thing to "handicap" factors like training methods. It's quite another to constantly trash an expert who has accomplished more than the vast majority of racing participants will ever do. Making a villain out of a guy without knowing the day-to-day details of each horse he handles is about as simplistic as it gets. Anyone who does it should not whine about getting some mockery in return.

So stop whining.

[Stillriledup]

It's one thing to "handicap" factors like training methods. It's quite another to constantly trash an expert who has accomplished more than the vast majority of racing participants will ever do. Making a villain out of a guy without knowing the day-to-day details of each horse he handles is about as simplistic as it gets. Anyone who does it should not whine about getting some mockery in return.

So stop whining.

Why do you have to know the "day to day" details to know that whenever there's a big day in racing, Lukas is there with as many as he can possibly enter?

That's equivalent to saying that no person who's ever not sat on horse back and rode them around the track can be good enough to pick winners or make money.

Like i said before, its not personal, nobody who is being critical of his "entering methods" is taking a personal dig at him, they're just analyzing his horses, when they run, where they run, how they run, etc. Its the people who are defending him who are making it personal.

If a handicapper says something negative about an owner, jock, trainer or horse, why does it always have to be a 'personal shot'?

There's no handicapper on the face of the earth who thinks every horse, trainer and jock is "good". Some arent so good, some horses are slow, some trainers are bad, some jocks can't get out of their own way, its all part of the process of handicapping, nobody is trashing anyone.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why do you have to know the "day to day" details to know that whenever there's a big day in racing, Lukas is there with as many as he can possibly enter?That's because he had big time owners...sometimes more than one...so he had some really good horses...all in the same year...so what do you think is going to happen?

He's going to have multiple entrants...like Todd Pletcher and Bob Baffert today.

What's he supposed to do? Tell some of his owners they can't enter because he only wants his very best horse in the big race? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Stillriledup]

That's because he had big time owners...sometimes more than one...so he had some really good horses...all in the same year...so what do you think is going to happen?

He's going to have multiple entrants...like Todd Pletcher and Bob Baffert today.

What's he supposed to do? Tell some of his owners they can't enter because he only wants his very best horse in the big race? :lol: :lol: :lol:

There's been plenty of Lukas examples where he's only had 1 horse in the race and as far as telling owners they need to "sit this one out" the guy never sits anything out, dance every dance, especially if its a "big day".

Big Day Wayne they call him.

[PaceAdvantage]

There's been plenty of Lukas examples where he's only had 1 horse in the race But I was quoting you where you said he throws as many horses as he can into any and all big races.

Which point do you want to debate?

**** it. You're right. You and mineshaft and all the Lukas HATERS. Hey, it feels good to just throw out the word HATERS...there...I showed you.... :lol:

Lukas sucks. He's the worst trainer around. He's nothing more than a Madison Avenue creation...all hat...no cattle...

What a cosmic stroke of luck that it just so happens that many of his former assistants are now some of the top trainers in the game today...the man knew nothing about horsemanship, how to train, or how to manage a horse.

There. You've converted me. Lukas stinks.

[Stillriledup]

But I was quoting you where you said he throws as many horses as he can into any and all big races.

Which point do you want to debate?

**** it. You're right. You and mineshaft and all the Lukas HATERS. Hey, it feels good to just throw out the word HATERS...there...I showed you.... :lol:

Lukas sucks. He's the worst trainer around. He's nothing more than a Madison Avenue creation...all hat...no cattle...

What a cosmic stroke of luck that it just so happens that many of his former assistants are now some of the top trainers in the game today...the man knew nothing about horsemanship, how to train, or how to manage a horse.

There. You've converted me. Lukas stinks.

Cmon now, didnt you read my post? Its all about handicapping, i don't hate anyone because hate is a strong emotion and if i start hating on this guy and that guy, there's no doubt that would hurt my handicapping. Same with jocks and owners and humans who are in the game.

Lukas is what he is, nothing more, nothing less...all i was debating was his entering strategy, why would "hating" on Lukas be a good thing? I could honestly care less, all it is to me is a handicapping angle. If i think he's entering a horse just because its a "big day" than this is my right as a handicapper to be critical, that's what handicapping is all about, you weigh all the information and come to a conclusion and try and make the best guess you can.

[rastajenk]

Bettors who let the "humans" get into their heads are not as good as the bettors who realize that the horse is the main factor and the humans are just bit players in a game called HORSE racing.This is the wrongest thing I've ever seen posted here. It's a human activity, and every outcome of every race, and every payout to you the bettors, is determined by humans

I could honestly care less, all it is to me is a handicapping angle. If i think he's entering a horse just because its a "big day" than this is my right as a handicapper to be critical, that's what handicapping is all about, you weigh all the information and come to a conclusion and try and make the best guess you can.I'd say that you've let D Wayne get into your head.

[wisconsin]

I'd say that you've let D Wayne get into your head.


My guess is that he bet a number of Lukas runners in his day, but never the right ones ;)

[Mineshaft]

But I was quoting you where you said he throws as many horses as he can into any and all big races.

Which point do you want to debate?

**** it. You're right. You and mineshaft and all the Lukas HATERS. Hey, it feels good to just throw out the word HATERS...there...I showed you.... :lol:

Lukas sucks. He's the worst trainer around. He's nothing more than a Madison Avenue creation...all hat...no cattle...

What a cosmic stroke of luck that it just so happens that many of his former assistants are now some of the top trainers in the game today...the man knew nothing about horsemanship, how to train, or how to manage a horse.

There. You've converted me. Lukas stinks.





Has he sucked the last 10 years? yep he sure has


Did he suck between the years 1984-2000? Nope he sure didnt he was one of the best


So what happened? I think everyone has caught up to him in terms of how to train horses and how to spot horses. Hes still getting some of the best well bred horses every year so why cant he win more than he should be winning?

[Mystic]

Perhaps because the testing is better?

[Stillriledup]

This is the wrongest thing I've ever seen posted here. It's a human activity, and every outcome of every race, and every payout to you the bettors, is determined by humans

I'd say that you've let D Wayne get into your head.

You're a funny guy. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Has he sucked the last 10 years? yep he sure has


Did he suck between the years 1984-2000? Nope he sure didnt he was one of the best


So what happened? I think everyone has caught up to him in terms of how to train horses and how to spot horses. Hes still getting some of the best well bred horses every year so why cant he win more than he should be winning?Is he really still getting some of the best well bred horses every year? Just like from 1984-2000? I don't think so...definitely not as many for sure.

Maybe after Lukas your next target should be Jack Van Berg.

[Stillriledup]

Is he really still getting some of the best well bred horses every year? Just like from 1984-2000? I don't think so...definitely not as many for sure.

Maybe after Lukas your next target should be Jack Van Berg.

Does Lukas pay you by the hour or the week? :D

[PaceAdvantage]

Does Lukas pay you by the hour or the week? :DI usually collect monthly installments for this type of work. You think Lukas is the only one? I'm on NYRA's payroll too...along with the entire east-coast racing establishment...I have a mansion and a yacht... :lol:

[wisconsin]

Perhaps because the testing is better?


Yeah, that's it....

In fact, the testing is so good these days that we are down to just 3 or 4 40% trainers :lol:

[Stillriledup]

I usually collect monthly installments for this type of work. You think Lukas is the only one? I'm on NYRA's payroll too...along with the entire east-coast racing establishment...I have a mansion and a yacht... :lol:

:lol:

Love it!!

The shame of it all is that DWL probably doesn't know you would run thru fire for him. :ThmbUp:

[SandyW]

Has he sucked the last 10 years? yep he sure has


Did he suck between the years 1984-2000? Nope he sure didn't he was one of the best


So what happened? I think everyone has caught up to him in terms of how to train horses and how to spot horses. Hes still getting some of the best well bred horses every year so why cant he win more than he should be winning?

Let me try to explain numbers to you, right now Lukas has 31 horses in training and is still doing this for the love of the game. I am sure we will not have to pass the hat around for him.
In his prime years Lukas had 200+ horses in training at different tracks around the country at any given time. So you see numbers do matter, but don't tell the true story.
More starts, more wins and so on.

D. Wayne Lukas will always be one of the greats of this game that we call horse racing long after most of us are long gone.
I don't know of anybody that ever had a horse with him that ever complained that he was winning to much money for them by entering their horses in races.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't know of anybody that ever had a horse with him that ever complained that he was winning to much money for them by entering their horses in races.Cue Satish Sanan and Padua Stable next up for the Lukas HATERS... :lol:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Cue Satish Sanan and Padua Stable next up for the Lukas HATERS... :lol:

Lukas lost Satish something like $835 mm over two years, no? :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

Lukas lost Satish something like $835 mm over two years, no? :rolleyes:Almost a billion dollars? Nooooooooooooooo....

A figure I came across on ESPN in an article from 2007 said he spent $150M over a ten year span starting in 1997.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Almost a billion dollars? Nooooooooooooooo....

A figure I came across on ESPN in an article from 2007 said he spent $150M over a ten year span starting in 1997.

I was joking. Satish came into the sport thinking it would be easy. I'd bet a lot of money Lukas never said to him, "yeah this is really easy."

[SandyW]

I never said that owners did not lose money with him, all I said is that no owner ever said don't enter my horse in a race and try and win that days purse.

[PaceAdvantage]

I was joking. Satish came into the sport thinking it would be easy. I'd bet a lot of money Lukas never said to him, "yeah this is really easy."I don't think he would say it's easy, but I doubt he tried to discourage him...I'm sure he touted himself and his past accomplishments like any good businessman would who is looking to add a big name to his roster of clients...

[Stillriledup]

Here's the real truth about the coach, you know, if you wanna listen.

Here are the facts.

1) One of the all time winningest trainers ever.

2) One of the all time greats.

3) Won almost every big race out there, many more than once.

4) In his heyday, trained some of the most expensive unraced stock that has ever went thru auction (adjusted dollars for inflation of course).

5) Works harder than anyone. Nobody beats this guy to the barn. One thing you can't ever say about the coach is that he's a slacker or lazy.

6) Always wears a suit and sunglasses when he's at the track, he's not wearing white sneakers, cargo shorts and a button down tommy bahama shirt with a cocktail glass on the back.


The rest of the stuff is just personal opinion, if you feel he over races horses sometimes, or enters on big days just because they are big days, that's personal opinion. If you think he's getting a bad rap and doesn't make too many mistakes with entering, that's certainly your right as a handicapper to think that.

I like the Coach, i think he's good for the game, he works hard and loves the sport, no way you can be in the game this long without a deep love for the animals and the game. I know that he doesn't get all the blame for entering on the big days, certainly some of the owners that he has gravitate TOWARDS him as their trainer because they know he will get them into those races, but as a handicapper, i have to admit, i do factor in that he might be rushing some horses into battle and entering certain horses over their head, you know, taking a shot, but like i said, as a handicapper, i'm just taking each entry as it comes, if i think the guy is entering in a bad spot, i'm going to try and take advantage of that at the windows, nothing against the guy, but we have these opinions (even subconsciously) on almost every human participant in the game, it is just part of handicapping.

I really appreciate PA and Wisconsin and a few others showing their passion for the coach and battling for him in these threads, keep up the good fight!

[Mineshaft]

Is he really still getting some of the best well bred horses every year? Just like from 1984-2000? I don't think so...definitely not as many for sure.

Maybe after Lukas your next target should be Jack Van Berg.





Claiborne doesnt send him rats thats for sure

[letswastemoney]

Not that I support this thread, but surprised no mention of Canadian Winner last weekend. Sibling to Biofuel.

[pele polo]

Claiborne doesnt send him rats thats for sure

Claiborne doesn't send him horses period.

Do you mean Calumet? They don't have the numbers you probably think either. Less than 15 in training with Lukas. And the success they've had is phenomenal considering it only took Brad Kelly a few years until he had multiple graded stakes winners and a Classic winner. Many of his runners are homebreds by English Channel who is no Storm Cat or Mr Prospector.

How many owners spend hundred of millions and twenty years and never get a breeders cup or triple crown? Plenty.

Someone posted Lukas only has 31 horses in training. How many trainers with just 31 horses are capable of taking an eclipse award, a triple crown race and G1 two year old race at Saratoga with three different horses in the same year? No one.

Something of note is that he trains very few fillies now, his owners opting to concentrate on triple crowns and making studs (Mack & Baker don't race/buy them at all. His best runners have been mares. Lady's Secret, Winning Colors, Serena's Song, etc. Those are three of the best mares of all time.

[Mineshaft]

Claiborne doesn't send him horses period.

Do you mean Calumet? They don't have the numbers you probably think either. Less than 15 in training with Lukas. And the success they've had is phenomenal considering it only took Brad Kelly a few years until he had multiple graded stakes winners and a Classic winner. Many of his runners are homebreds by English Channel who is no Storm Cat or Mr Prospector.

How many owners spend hundred of millions and twenty years and never get a breeders cup or triple crown? Plenty.

Someone posted Lukas only has 31 horses in training. How many trainers with just 31 horses are capable of taking an eclipse award, a triple crown race and G1 two year old race at Saratoga with three different horses in the same year? No one.

Something of note is that he trains very few fillies now, his owners opting to concentrate on triple crowns and making studs (Mack & Baker don't race/buy them at all. His best runners have been mares. Lady's Secret, Winning Colors, Serena's Song, etc. Those are three of the best mares of all time.






My bad i meant Calumet.


He dont win enough plain and simple.

[Mineshaft]

Another example of a horse running where it doesnt belong is Ria Antonia. And im not putting this on the trainer or trainers of this horse im putting it on the owners of this horse. Terrible placing of this horse and terrible mismanagement of this horse plain and simple.


You see Pace im not just calling out Lukas

[PaceAdvantage]

Another example of a horse running where it doesnt belong is Ria Antonia. And im not putting this on the trainer or trainers of this horse im putting it on the owners of this horse. Terrible placing of this horse and terrible mismanagement of this horse plain and simple.


You see Pace im not just calling out LukasI can finally sleep at night. Thank you.

[Mineshaft]

Poor Vigorish

[PaceAdvantage]

Poor VigorishI have a question. Is there any trainer with a BIG operation that you think places his or her horses correctly?

If so, I might start stalking them using your M.O. It will be interesting to track each injury, each breakdown, each death, each "up the track" finish, and then backfit the result in such a way so as to blame it on poor placement.

So give me a few names of those you respect with a BIG operation...

[Stillriledup]

I have a question. Is there any trainer with a BIG operation that you think places his or her horses correctly?

If so, I might start stalking them using your M.O. It will be interesting to track each injury, each breakdown, each death, each "up the track" finish, and then backfit the result in such a way so as to blame it on poor placement.

So give me a few names of those you respect with a BIG operation...

Everyone has their 'moments' of racing horses in higher classes than they belong...i think that DWL gets picked on because some feel he has more than most.

I agree, its at least a little unfair to single out coach as the poster boy for bad entering, he's not the only one.

[wisconsin]

i think that DWL gets picked on because some feel he has more than most.


I think his detractors pay close attention only to him, thus ignoring what goes on with other trainers.

[lamboguy]

if anyone wants to see a prime of example of what happens to horses when they run a race that they don't belong in look up the record for HOLIDAY RUNNER.

she was a real nice filly.

[Hambletonian]

Lukas is a prime example of the old standby:

How do you end up with a million in the racing game?
Start with 2 million.

He was a businessman at a time when most trainers were not. He cultivated wealthy owners, and won them alot of glory while losing them some decent dollars. Most of them I am sure were happy with the trade off. Would he have been as successful if he was part of a breeding to race operation? Probably not, but that was not his game in any case.

He was an innovator, and a level above most of his compatriots. And he is a horseman, he paid his dues and deserves the success he has achieved.

[Mineshaft]

if anyone wants to see a prime of example of what happens to horses when they run a race that they don't belong in look up the record for HOLIDAY RUNNER.

she was a real nice filly.




im looking and i cant see a race she didnt belong in. Yea she ran 10th in the Grade 1 Spinaway but she was coming off a 3rd place in a Grade 2. Not a horrible placing at all. But after that she was very competitive in small stakes races. Yea the Raven Run was a stupid placing i will agree there

[Mineshaft]

I have a question. Is there any trainer with a BIG operation that you think places his or her horses correctly?

If so, I might start stalking them using your M.O. It will be interesting to track each injury, each breakdown, each death, each "up the track" finish, and then backfit the result in such a way so as to blame it on poor placement.

So give me a few names of those you respect with a BIG operation...



We not talking breakdowns or DNF we are talking about placement of horses period.



Pletcher
Baffert

Let me know if these 2 trainers put horses where they dont belong on a continious basis.

[lamboguy]

im looking and i cant see a race she didnt belong in. Yea she ran 10th in the Grade 1 Spinaway but she was coming off a 3rd place in a Grade 2. Not a horrible placing at all. But after that she was very competitive in small stakes races. Yea the Raven Run was a stupid placing i will agree thereshe didn't run that good in the Adarondack, she kind of staggered home. i didn't think that race was the admission to the Spinaway.

[Mineshaft]

she didn't run that good in the Adarondack, she kind of staggered home. i didn't think that race was the admission to the Spinaway.




didnt watch the replay but i can see ur point but you can also make a case for her running in that spot. Only get beat 6 lengths if her 1st Grades stakes race and she was 5/2 in Adirondack and 12/1 in the Spinaway.

Did you own her?

[Mineshaft]

Everyone has their 'moments' of racing horses in higher classes than they belong...i think that DWL gets picked on because some feel he has more than most.

I agree, its at least a little unfair to single out coach as the poster boy for bad entering, he's not the only one.



No hes not the only one there are some trainers out there at every track who dont have a freakin clue.

[lamboguy]

didnt watch the replay but i can see ur point but you can also make a case for her running in that spot. Only get beat 6 lengths if her 1st Grades stakes race and she was 5/2 in Adirondack and 12/1 in the Spinaway.

Did you own her? i had no problem with the Adirodack, it was the next step i didn't like.

i like to give horses a break once they have a tough race and wasn't on all cylinder's. that's how you can get lucky and wind up with a big horse.

part of the problem is that in August once you have won 3 races there aren't to many spots to run as a 2 year old. maybe these guys today have the right idea by starting their horses later. today is May 24, there has not been a 2 year old race in New York yet. last year they had a deal, break your maiden in Belmont, get a bonus if you win a stake race in Saratoga.

another problem that HOLIDAY RUNNER had was that while she was real good, the horses she beat weren't. when she finally ran against good horses, she didn't perform as well. had she have started in June there might have been a different outcome. last year, CALIFORNIA CHROME started early as well and was very well managed. its a little different in California though, they don't have long winter's over there and horses don't miss any days of training. CHROME was always in a decent race his whole career. its easier to go up the ladder that way.

[wisconsin]

i had no problem with the Adirodack, it was the next step i didn't like.

i like to give horses a break once they have a tough race and wasn't on all cylinder's. that's how you can get lucky and wind up with a big horse.

part of the problem is that in August once you have won 3 races there aren't to many spots to run as a 2 year old. maybe these guys today have the right idea by starting their horses later. today is May 24, there has not been a 2 year old race in New York yet. last year they had a deal, break your maiden in Belmont, get a bonus if you win a stake race in Saratoga.

another problem that HOLIDAY RUNNER had was that while she was real good, the horses she beat weren't. when she finally ran against good horses, she didn't perform as well. had she have started in June there might have been a different outcome. last year, CALIFORNIA CHROME started early as well and was very well managed. its a little different in California though, they don't have long winter's over there and horses don't miss any days of training. CHROME was always in a decent race his whole career. its easier to go up the ladder that way.

Holiday Runner was generally a need to lead type of a horse. I can't agree that the Spinaway ruined her. She went to her nose at the start and NEVER had a chance, probably not persevered with too hard. She went to a couple of different barns after that race.

[Mineshaft]

For everyone wanting to know about Vigorish he broke his Maiden at Ellis Park yesterday.

[horses4courses]

This week, Horton shelled out $1.25 million at Fasig Tipton sales for a War Front filly closely related to Will Take Charge.
These types of purchases give Lukas every chance to remain at the top in racing. Best of luck to them!

http://thisishorseracing.com/news/index.php/this-is-horse-racing/2782-taking-charge

“I was surprised at Willis,” Lukas said. “We kind of said she was going pretty high. I said, ‘well I don’t think she will ever be any cheaper in her life.’ He said, ‘let’s take a run at her and hit her,’ He’s game. He’s wonderful, wonderful, wonderful for the game. He’s a good man.”

[Stillriledup]

This week, Horton shelled out $1.25 million at Fasig Tipton sales for a War Front filly closely related to Will Take Charge.
These types of purchases give Lukas every chance to remain at the top in racing. Best of luck to them!

http://thisishorseracing.com/news/index.php/this-is-horse-racing/2782-taking-charge

Run this one at Oaklawn, the rules for these people are different there.

[PaceAdvantage]

Run this one at Oaklawn, the rules for these people are different there.What the heck does that mean?

[horses4courses]

Nice job, coach
Mr. Z probably won't run again

[wisconsin]

Nice job, coach
Mr. Z probably won't run again

Based on what?

Horse took a short lead, was not good enough today. Was getting back to the place horse. Not a disaster.

What did he do to this horse that makes you say such a stupid thing?

[horses4courses]

Based on what?

Horse took a short lead, was not good enough today. Was getting back to the place horse. Not a disaster.

What did he do to this horse that makes you say such a stupid thing?

The way he came out like that, I thought the horse was breaking down.
It was written seconds after they crossed the line, and I could be wrong.
I hope that I am.

Having posted it, I watched the replay.
It didn't look as bad as watching live,
but I still it's very possible that Mr. Z is injured.

[Donttellmeshowme]

At first i thought he was breaking down too but Court kept on riding him. So that would tell me was fine underneath something just spooked him.

[Stillriledup]

His "impossible" looking Skyring nearly beat me out of my "nearly impossible" winner, Potomac River, in the race before.

Sky ring entered at Kee in a shrewd spot this coming weekend.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Sky ring entered at Kee in a shrewd spot this coming weekend.

The Shadwell on Saturday. When you say shrewd spot, do you mean Skyring's 50-1 M/L in a million dollar race (an obvious warm up for the Breeder's Cup Mile), or do you mean the spot The Coach gets in the Clubhouse for having an entry going in the feature race? :)

[Stillriledup]

The Shadwell on Saturday. When you say shrewd spot, do you mean Skyring's 50-1 M/L in a million dollar race (an obvious warm up for the Breeder's Cup Mile), or do you mean the spot The Coach gets in the Clubhouse for having an entry going in the feature race? :)

I'm not going to lie, it's a good entry, the horse fits well and the purse is nice, you can always count on the coach to put his horses in winning spots. I'm sure everyone will be excited at those dining reservations, being there on the big days is what it's all about!

[Tall One]

I'm not going to lie, it's a good entry, the horse fits well and the purse is nice, you can always count on the coach to put his horses in winning spots. I'm sure everyone will be excited at those dining reservations, being there on the big days is what it's all about!


Skyring was put down after the race

[tanner12oz]

gonna be alot of argument that lukas buried this one...probably warranted

[cutchemist42]

gonna be alot of argument that lukas buried this one...probably warranted
Yep

[Donttellmeshowme]

I'm not going to lie, it's a good entry, the horse fits well and the purse is nice, you can always count on the coach to put his horses in winning spots. I'm sure everyone will be excited at those dining reservations, being there on the big days is what it's all about!




When your 70/1 in a Grade 1 race or any race for that matter its safe to assume this was not a good entry. He worked this horse 3 times in 14 days. Someone take his trainers license away immediately.

[andtheyreoff]

There were probably more than a few people around here who, let's just say, weren't exactly crushed when Skyring got put down.

And there's a word for people like that: cockroaches.

[Donttellmeshowme]

There were probably more than a few people around here who, let's just say, weren't exactly crushed when Skyring got put down.

And there's a word for people like that: cockroaches.




And theres a word for trainers who butcher horses: Goofballs and Dummies.

[Fager Fan]

And theres a word for trainers who butcher horses: Goofballs and Dummies.

I guess you understand who he's talking about? I didn't. I couldn't imagine anyone here being happy about this.

As for the butcher comment, there were 3 deaths in less than 24 hours at KEE. This horse may've been running in ambitious spots but that doesn't mean he was in any increased danger of breakdown. The boggy conditions probably led to the three breakdowns.

[Kash$]

I guess you understand who he's talking about? I didn't. I couldn't imagine anyone here being happy about this.

As for the butcher comment, there were 3 deaths in less than 24 hours at KEE. This horse may've been running in ambitious spots but that doesn't mean he was in any increased danger of breakdown. The boggy conditions probably led to the three breakdowns.

And someone who doesn't own it is a spineless cockroach..

[horses4courses]

I guess you understand who he's talking about? I didn't. I couldn't imagine anyone here being happy about this.

As for the butcher comment, there were 3 deaths in less than 24 hours at KEE. This horse may've been running in ambitious spots but that doesn't mean he was in any increased danger of breakdown. The boggy conditions probably led to the three breakdowns.

Races are run on boggy turf in Europe all the time.
They have few injuries because of it, and trainers there
regard firm turf as far more dangerous. Rightly so.
It puts more stress on the limbs.

[Fager Fan]

Races are run on boggy turf in Europe all the time.
They have few injuries because of it, and trainers there
regard firm turf as far more dangerous. Rightly so.
It puts more stress on the limbs.

You might want to read the articles about this with the quote from Coolmore who scratched from the race due to the turf course condition. He said point blank that they'd not run over a course in that condition in Europe.

[Fager Fan]

And someone who doesn't own it is a spineless cockroach..

Doesn't own what? You're reminding me of a cockroach at the moment.

[Tom]

3 works in 14 days?
What is wrong with that?

[wisconsin]

3 works in 14 days?
What is wrong with that?


Tom, don't you know that horses are supposed to run 4 times per year off of six annual works? :bang:

[Tom]

OH, they work every time I change my socks?

[horses4courses]

You might want to read the articles about this with the quote from Coolmore who scratched from the race due to the turf course condition. He said point blank that they'd not run over a course in that condition in Europe.

Then the ground must have been inconsistent - heavy in parts, good in others.
Or, it was just so waterlogged and slippery that it was dangerous.
I would trust Aidan O'Brien's judgement, for sure.
He did run 2 fillies earlier in the card, though.

[Stillriledup]

I guess you understand who he's talking about? I didn't. I couldn't imagine anyone here being happy about this.

As for the butcher comment, there were 3 deaths in less than 24 hours at KEE. This horse may've been running in ambitious spots but that doesn't mean he was in any increased danger of breakdown. The boggy conditions probably led to the three breakdowns.

He might not have been in danger of breakdown for those reasons, but why run for free (or 3,333 to be exact)?

He had to finish 5th to get 30k, was he really going to finish in the top 5?

[Fager Fan]

He might not have been in danger of breakdown for those reasons, but why run for free (or 3,333 to be exact)?

He had to finish 5th to get 30k, was he really going to finish in the top 5?

Whether it was good placement is another topic I think. Wayne takes some hits for that and deservedly so but unless it causes harm to the horse I guess I really don't care. That's something between him and his owner.

I worried about a horse we used to own who was being bsaten badly though in the lower ranks. He was running every week or 10 days too. I finally paid a small sum to get the horse and retire him. His legs were as clean as a whistle.

I'm cautious when beating up someone over a horse breaking down as I know what it feels like and wouldn't want people beating up on me when things are already bad enough for me right then. In this case it looks like the track is more responsible than trainers sending out horses on the verge of breaking down. I heard the Motion horse snapped both front legs the next morning and no one questions that Motion would be cavalier in the handling of his horses.

[Donttellmeshowme]

3 works in 14 days?
What is wrong with that?




Wow you really asked that question? Poor you.....

[no breathalyzer]

3 works in 14 days?
What is wrong with that?


nothing.. too many internet trainers here.. pretty much if you weren't there for them works you shouldn't question/judge/ criticize them.. there's no telling on paper how hard the horse was working in them works.

[Stillriledup]

Whether it was good placement is another topic I think. Wayne takes some hits for that and deservedly so but unless it causes harm to the horse I guess I really don't care. That's something between him and his owner.

I worried about a horse we used to own who was being bsaten badly though in the lower ranks. He was running every week or 10 days too. I finally paid a small sum to get the horse and retire him. His legs were as clean as a whistle.

I'm cautious when beating up someone over a horse breaking down as I know what it feels like and wouldn't want people beating up on me when things are already bad enough for me right then. In this case it looks like the track is more responsible than trainers sending out horses on the verge of breaking down. I heard the Motion horse snapped both front legs the next morning and no one questions that Motion would be cavalier in the handling of his horses.

The 64 dollar question is basically this. Can a horse have a setback physically due to anything the trainer does as far as placement goes. Also, are all in-race injuries random and no trainer is ever to blame and it's all just rotten luck. If we can answer these ?'s we have the answers (as yogi might have said)

[tanner12oz]

If it was only the conditions that would be one thing but its dwl who has a checkered history, a 70-1 shot, a horse who has been shipping and running everywhere for years...lots of other turf runners made it across the track just fine..coincidence its the over campaigned Lukas horse that found trouble..ironic?

[PaceAdvantage]

When your 70/1 in a Grade 1 race or any race for that matter its safe to assume this was not a good entry. He worked this horse 3 times in 14 days. Someone take his trainers license away immediately.You have zero understanding of the game.

[Stillriledup]

If it was only the conditions that would be one thing but its dwl who has a checkered history, a 70-1 shot, a horse who has been shipping and running everywhere for years...lots of other turf runners made it across the track just fine..coincidence its the over campaigned Lukas horse that found trouble..ironic?

No upside there, horse had zero shot to get 5th (or better) place check not sure what was the purpose to run in that spot.

Maybe he needed an entry to get dining room table? Not sure what else it could be.

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe he needed an entry to get dining room table?Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what it was. Man, you're good...glad I have let you linger on...

[Ruffian1]

3 works in 14 days?
What is wrong with that?

I don't know Tom.

I think you have asked a legit question.

Let's find out.

[no breathalyzer]

Daily reminder the people on this board are the people you have to beat out in the parimutuel board . why ain't i rich already :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Daily reminder the people on this board are the people you have to beat out in the parimutuel board . why ain't i rich already :lol:

Because its not PEOPLE you have to beat out, it's money. One hundred stupid 2 dollar bettors can easily get cancelled out by one sharp betting a few hundred.

[Ruffian1]

Wow you really asked that question? Poor you.....

As a follow up to my last post, Tom, a more than legit poster here, asked a very legit question and you blew him off as "poor you".

The guy has forgotten more about horse racing than you know and it would serve you well to read his posts several times, so as to absorb as much with two or more readings as possible.

That said,

Let me ask the question, What is wrong with that?

I can't wait for these pearls of wisdom.

[Fager Fan]

As a follow up to my last post, Tom, a more than legit poster here, asked a very legit question and you blew him off as "poor you".

The guy has forgotten more about horse racing than you know and it would serve you well to read his posts several times, so as to absorb as much with two readings as possible.

That said,

Let me ask the question, What is wrong with that?

I can't wait for these pearls of wisdom.

Oh my God. What is wrong with you people?

He worked like any normal horse works. He worked on 9/13, then 9/20, then 9/27, before running on 10/3.

You all should be highly embarrassed. That's my pearl of wisdom.

[Ruffian1]

Oh my God. What is wrong with you people?

He worked like any normal horse works. He worked on 9/13, then 9/20, then 9/27, before running on 10/3.

You all should be highly embarrassed. That's my pearl of wisdom.


Read it again hot head.

I am defending Tom and laughing at this self absorbed buffoon.

I think you are as well.

But it is the internet, so you never know.