VW plant in Chattanooga remains non-union

[GaryG]

This is a strong right-to-work state that does not need the UAW and all of the grief that goes with it. Stay in Detroit where you belong.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/15/workers-at-tennessee-volkswagen-factory-reject-united-auto-workers-union/

[Robert Goren]

Now we will see if Corker is another lying politician. VW has to build a new plant or the GOP takes another big hit.. Of course lying is a way of life for anti-union forces, so I suspect there will be no new plant.

[ArlJim78]

I'm surprised the vote was that close. They'd be nuts to fall for the union sales pitch.

[HUSKER55]

If the american does not wake up then ALL jobs are going overseas to those workers who do. Face facts, it is a global economy and that includes labor.

[Tom]

Smart people - this had all to do with the survival of the UAW and nothing to do with the good of the workers. They saw through it. Or smelled through it.

Free people making choices.
Is that not the hallmark of the democratic party? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[HUSKER55]

how do you get a picture into a reply. I thought any fool could do it.

Now ya know, I am unique! :D :D

[Clocker]

Now we will see if Corker is another lying politician. VW has to build a new plant or the GOP takes another big hit.. Of course lying is a way of life for anti-union forces, so I suspect there will be no new plant.

The head of the VW plant said before the election that there would be no connection between the vote and a new plant.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Now we will see if Corker is another lying politician. VW has to build a new plant or the GOP takes another big hit.. Of course lying is a way of life for anti-union forces, so I suspect there will be no new plant.


"Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee was the most vocal opponent, saying that he was told that VW would build a new midsized SUV in Chattanooga if workers rejected the union. That was later denied by a VW executive."

If another plant isn't built, that makes Corker a liar? Isn't it possible his source was lying, misinformed or speculating? And the GOP will take a big hit if a new plant isn't built? You obviously don't know Corker's background or his connections to the area.

Also, how do the pay and benefits at this plant compare to other local jobs? What was the genesis of the union movement at this plant? How does it compare with the German union model (there's a tie-in)?

Please inform yourself (reading the full article would be a start, or find one in the NY Times if you like) on these matters before making more baseless accusations. Thank you.

[Clocker]

What was the genesis of the union movement at this plant?

The UAW.

The setback is a major defeat for the UAW's effort to expand in the growing South, where foreign automakers have 14 assembly plants, eight built in the past decade, said Kristin Dziczek, director of the labor and industry group at the Center for Automotive Research, an industry think tank in Michigan.

"If this was going to work anywhere, this is where it was going to work," she said of Chattanooga.

Organizing a Southern plant is so crucial to the union that UAW President Bob King told workers in a speech that the union has no long-term future without it.

"If the union can't win [in Chattanooga], it can't win anywhere," Steve Silvia, a economics and trade professor at American University who has studied labor unions, told the Journal.



Source (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/15/workers-at-tennessee-volkswagen-factory-reject-united-auto-workers-union/)

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally the Germans wanted a work council in the plant, which seemed like a perfect solution. Of course the power-hungry UAW wouldn't hear of it.

[FantasticDan]

Originally the Germans wanted a work council in the plant, which seemed like a perfect solution. Of course the power-hungry UAW wouldn't hear of it. :confused:
US labor laws say that workers can't form/join a work council unless they belong to a union. VW wanted the work council, so that's why they invited in the UAW to take a vote.

[Tom]

Just another case of Big Brother sticking his useless nose in other people's business.

Government should only what is does best - pick up garbage and plow the roads.
Beyond that, they only cause problems.

[Clocker]

Just another case of Big Brother sticking his useless nose in other people's business.


Gee, you think Big Brother thought up that pro-union law all by himself? :rolleyes:

[Saratoga_Mike]

:confused:
US labor laws say that workers can't form/join a work council unless they belong to a union. VW wanted the work council, so that's why they invited in the UAW to take a vote.

You're correct on this, but my understanding was/is there was/is a lot of gray area on this matter? I'm not a labor expert by any means - you might be - if so, was there no way to implement something very similar to the German model (seemed like a good solution) without violating US labor laws?

[FantasticDan]

You're correct on this, but my understanding was/is there was/is a lot of gray area on this matter? I'm not a labor expert by any means - you might be - if so, was there no way to implement something very similar to the German model (seemed like a good solution) without violating US labor laws?I don't think so.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/21862-volkswagen-workers-vote-on-union-works-council-scheme

Under German law, which requires works councils in many enterprises, a council’s explicit charge is to work for the interests of both workers and company, finding non-conflictual ways of dealing with new technologies, reorganization of jobs, and plant closings. Works council members are elected by non-management employees and paid by management. (See box.)

But that job description goes against U.S. labor law, which says management may not “dominate” a labor organization nor “contribute financial or other support to it.” A works council would be legally possible under U.S. law only if the workers involved also had their own independent representative: a union.

[mostpost]

Originally the Germans wanted a work council in the plant, which seemed like a perfect solution. Of course the power-hungry UAW wouldn't hear of it.
Where dd you get that little tidbit from? Because that is not true. The following is from the story linked in the first post.

VW wanted a German-style "works council" in Chattanooga to give employees a say over working conditions. The company says U.S. law won't allow it without an independent union.

Volkswagen did not object to the UAW organizing its Chattanooga plant. In fact it invited the union into the plant to present its proposal to the workers. Volkswagen's plants in Germany are union and they all have "works councils." Unions and "Works councils" are complementary not adversarial.

[mostpost]

Just another case of Big Brother sticking his useless nose in other people's business.

Government should only what is does best - pick up garbage and plow the roads.
Beyond that, they only cause problems.
So what you are saying is that Senator Corker should not have commented on this matter. I agree.
It seems that you are also saying that the governor of Tennessee and the legislators from that state should not have threatened to withhold incentives from Volkswagen if the workers voted the union in. Again, I agree.

[mostpost]

Gee, you think Big Brother thought up that pro-union law all by himself? :rolleyes:
The reason for that law is to prevent management from making up a workers counsel comprised of toadies and sycophants that would just rubber stamp whatever the company wanted.

[Clocker]

The reason for that law is to prevent management from making up a workers counsel comprised of toadies and sycophants that would just rubber stamp whatever the company wanted.

What if management and labor thought it was a good idea, and it was an agreement between consenting adults?

P.S. You better watch yourself. I believe that calling people "toadies and sycophants" is now a hate crime in this country. Those are protected minorities.

[ArlJim78]

the steel industry, the rust belt, our education system; behold the magic of unions.

[Clocker]

the steel industry, the rust belt, our education system; behold the magic of unions.

Don't forget the Motor City.

But to be fair, it does take two people to make up a dysfunctional marriage. And it takes greedy unions and spineless management (and/or politicians) to wreck an industry or a city.

[JustRalph]

the steel industry, the rust belt, our education system; behold the magic of unions.

Great post

[Tom]

Originally Posted by mostpost
The reason for that law is to prevent management from making up a workers counsel comprised of toadies and sycophants that would just rubber stamp whatever the company wanted.

My God, you are one pompous flunky.
People can't make their own choices unless some union thug gets paid off?
How dare you ever claim you favor choice.
Do you goose-step at around your block?

[Clocker]

My God, you are one pompous flunky.
People can't make their own choices unless some union thug gets paid off?


Not all of the religion posts are posted in the "Religious" thread.

It is an article of faith for some that all corporations are the Great Satan and that union members are the chosen people, wandering in the wilderness. And that only corruption and vile temptation can lead the innocents into rejecting the way and the truth and the light, and voting against the UAW.

[Robert Goren]

"Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee was the most vocal opponent, saying that he was told that VW would build a new midsized SUV in Chattanooga if workers rejected the union. That was later denied by a VW executive."

If another plant isn't built, that makes Corker a liar? Isn't it possible his source was lying, misinformed or speculating? And the GOP will take a big hit if a new plant isn't built? You obviously don't know Corker's background or his connections to the area.

Also, how do the pay and benefits at this plant compare to other local jobs? What was the genesis of the union movement at this plant? How does it compare with the German union model (there's a tie-in)?

Please inform yourself (reading the full article would be a start, or find one in the NY Times if you like) on these matters before making more baseless accusations. Thank you.Well, one thing is for sure. Somebody on the anti-union side lied if VW doesn't build the plant. One other thing is for sure. No conservative will hold their feet to the fire on this issue. As long as it keeps out a union, anything goes. If Corker was misinformed, then he should name his source wouldn't you agree? Conservatives are always talking about taking responsibility for word and deeds. It highly unlikely anyone will take responsibility for that vey important piece of misinformation. Not Croker or anyone from VW. And you on the right will give them a pass and make excuses for them. It is the conservative way.

[HUSKER55]

and of course, that does not apply to BO or any democrat

[Robert Goren]

and of course, that does not apply to BO or any democratThere is no shortage of people trying to hold Obama's feet to the fire.

[classhandicapper]

I think workers should be entitled to organize themselves any way they see fit, even if they are hell bent on committing long term financial suicide. There are a lot of people around the world that need a job. I'd prefer that Americans have them, but I prefer that markets settle these compensation issues even more. If you want to price yourself out of the market, so be it.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Where dd you get that little tidbit from? Because that is not true. The following is from the story linked in the first post.

.

You are correct - I had read this article about 6 months ago (see below) in the NY Times and did not remember the union part correctly. To be clear, I was wrong on the union issue. Point to you on that one!

Putting US labor law aside (pretend your dictator for a day - scary thought), would you have been opposed to just a work council at the TN VW plant? Also, have you compared the wages and benefits at the plant to other jobs in the area?

"Volkswagen is working with the United Automobile Workers at its Chattanooga, Tenn., assembly plant on how to unionize the plant and create a German-style works council there, the president of the labor union said on Friday.

The company would be the first German automaker to have such a council at a United States plant. A works council is a group of employees, including both white- and blue-collar workers, that meets with management on issues like working conditions and productivity."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/07/business/vw-and-auto-workers-explore-union-at-tennessee-plant.html?_r=0

[Saratoga_Mike]

I think workers should be entitled to organize themselves any way they see fit, even if they are hell bent on committing long term financial suicide. There are a lot of people around the world that need a job. I'd prefer that Americans have them, but I prefer that markets settle these compensation issues even more. If you want to price yourself out of the market, so be it.

This summarizes my position well.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Well, one thing is for sure. Somebody on the anti-union side lied if VW doesn't build the plant. One other thing is for sure. No conservative will hold their feet to the fire on this issue. As long as it keeps out a union, anything goes. If Corker was misinformed, then he should name his source wouldn't you agree? Conservatives are always talking about taking responsibility for word and deeds. It highly unlikely anyone will take responsibility for that vey important piece of misinformation. Not Croker or anyone from VW. And you on the right will give them a pass and make excuses for them. It is the conservative way.

I bet Bob Corker wishes he was as influential (on how workers voted on the union issue) as you imply here.

[mostpost]

Well, one thing is for sure. Somebody on the anti-union side lied if VW doesn't build the plant. One other thing is for sure. No conservative will hold their feet to the fire on this issue. As long as it keeps out a union, anything goes. If Corker was misinformed, then he should name his source wouldn't you agree? Conservatives are always talking about taking responsibility for word and deeds. It highly unlikely anyone will take responsibility for that vey important piece of misinformation. Not Croker or anyone from VW. And you on the right will give them a pass and make excuses for them. It is the conservative way. The way I read this is that the politicians were threatening to withhold incentives from VW if the union was approved. No incentives, no new plant. No new plant, no new jobs and maybe less old jobs.
A clear case of Republican politicians using extortion to get their way.

[fast4522]

"Under German law"

To hell with Germany, let them freeze.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The way I read this is that the politicians were threatening to withhold incentives from VW if the union was approved. No incentives, no new plant. No new plant, no new jobs and maybe less old jobs.
A clear case of Republican politicians using extortion to get their way.

At the federal, state or local level?

I assume you mean state and local. If the plant had voted to unionize, wouldn't the state/local governments need to offer a richer incentive package to entice additional capital investments? Maybe the returns on higher incentives wouldn't make it worthwhile?

[mostpost]

I think workers should be entitled to organize themselves any way they see fit, even if they are hell bent on committing long term financial suicide. There are a lot of people around the world that need a job. I'd prefer that Americans have them, but I prefer that markets settle these compensation issues even more. If you want to price yourself out of the market, so be it.
Yours is the typical short sighted, narrow minded conservative vision. You think that paying workers more causes business to lose money. I think paying workers more allows them to spend more and increases business profits.

You think we should send jobs overseas and lower American workers pay until we compete with the third world. I think we should limit the jobs that go overseas and raise tariffs on imports.

You think that the free market solves everything. I think that the free market inevitably leads to the market that is controlled by a few. This was proven in the past by Rockefeller in oil, Andrew Carnegie in steel, Jay Gould in railroads, and JP Morgan in finance. Nowadays WalMart proves my point. As do other big box realtors.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yours is the typical short sighted, narrow minded conservative vision. You think that paying workers more causes business to lose money. I think paying workers more allows them to spend more and increases business profits.

You think we should send jobs overseas and lower American workers pay until we compete with the third world. I think we should limit the jobs that go overseas and raise tariffs on imports.

You think that the free market solves everything. I think that the free market inevitably leads to the market that is controlled by a few. This was proven in the past by Rockefeller in oil, Andrew Carnegie in steel, Jay Gould in railroads, and JP Morgan in finance. Nowadays WalMart proves my point. As do other big box realtors.

President Obama does not agree with you on this matter (i.e., raising tariffs, at least in the board sense). It's refreshing to see you think for yourself.

[mostpost]

Putting US labor law aside (pretend your dictator for a day - scary thought), would you have been opposed to just a work council at the TN VW plant? Also, have you compared the wages and benefits at the plant to other jobs in the area?
I would not be opposed to a work council at the TN VW plant if that were all I could get. Volkswagen has a proven record with that system in Germany. I am sure some American companies would also run such a system well. The problem is those which would abuse it. You don't like your doors because of the 99 people who would not think of stealing from you. You lock them because of the one who would.

I have no idea about comparative wages and benefits. I favor unions because they can negotiate fair, not excessive wages and benefits.

[fast4522]

Every business is different, in each there is a business model that will not change no matter how much the left babbles. Materials and parts often have a large percentage of the cost, direct labor usually accounts for 13% to 14%. Management and marketing have fixed costs. Not that a retired postal worker would understand numbers other than a street address.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I would not be opposed to a work council at the TN VW plant if that were all I could get. Volkswagen has a proven record with that system in Germany. I am sure some American companies would also run such a system well. The problem is those which would abuse it. You don't like your doors because of the 99 people who would not think of stealing from you. You lock them because of the one who would.

I have no idea about comparative wages and benefits. I favor unions because they can negotiate fair, not excessive wages and benefits.

Your position on the work council issue seems reasonable.

If the total compensation package at the TN VW plant is already fair, is there a need for a union? Most Dems think every company is out to screw over its workers, and most Reps view all unions as evil. Neither position is reasonable nor true.

[Clocker]

If the total compensation package at the TN VW plant is already fair, is there a need for a union?

The people that work there didn't think there was a need.

But there are those that think that those people don't know what is good for them. Those same people think that most people don't know what health insurance is good for them, and they need to have that decision made for them by their all-knowing, all-caring government.

[mostpost]

Your position on the work council issue seems reasonable.

If the total compensation package at the TN VW plant is already fair, is there a need for a union? Most Dems think every company is out to screw over its workers, and most Reps view all unions as evil. Neither position is reasonable nor true.
There is a need for a union because the total compensation package may not be fair in the future. If that happens the union has to be in place and empowered to negotiate for the workers.

You won't have much trouble convincing me that not all companies are out to screw over its workers; but you will have a lot of trouble convincing Fast or Tom or some of the others that all unions are not evil.

[ArlJim78]

oh so unions are there to negotiate a fair salary? how quaint.

[Clocker]

oh so unions are there to negotiate a fair salary? how quaint.

Not any union I ever belonged to.

[Tom]

but you will have a lot of trouble convincing Fast or Tom or some of the others that all unions are not evil.

Most are.
And you are wrong about this one - there is no need for it....the WORKERS have said so.