Mt Rushmore of sports discussion

[Stillriledup]

Mike and Mike talking today about the "mt rushmore" of sports....the greatest 4 players in each of their sports...heck, you can even do the mt rushmore of actors, or singers or musical acts or even sports characters.

Fire away with Mt Rushmore.

The "Sure things" in Mt Rushmore are:

baseball: Ruth
Hockey: Gretzky
Basketball: Wilt, MJ
Sports Characters in movies: Rocky
Music: Beatles
Racehorses: Secretariat
Golf: Jack, Arnie
Auto Racing: Petty, Dale

[Robert Goren]

Let's try music first since it is pretty cut and dried. At least from as performers.

Bing Crosby
Elvis
Frank Sinatra
Beatles.

Some of the younger crowd might wonder about Bing, but rest assured that he was a big as anybody in his day. A lot bigger than say, Michael Jackson, the likely number 5. Note that Bing, Frank and Elvis also starred in a lot of movies.

[Stillriledup]

Let's try music first since it is pretty cut and dried. At least from as performers.

Bing Crosby
Elvis
Frank Sinatra
Beatles.

Some of the younger crowd might wonder about Bing, but rest assured that he was a big as anybody in his day. A lot bigger than say, Michael Jackson, the likely number 5. Note that Bing, Frank and Elvis also starred in a lot of movies.

Good call, Elvis is no doubt in Mt Rushmore and so are the beatles, you can't argue with either one. MJ is huge, if someone wanted to argue he's in Mt Rushmore, i'd have no problem with it.

[thaskalos]

Baseball - Ruth
Basketball - Jordan
Football - Brown
Hockey - Gretzky
Soccer - Pele
Horse Racing - Shoemaker
Boxing - Ali
Golf - Nicklaus
Tennis - Federer
Bowling - Anthony
Auto Racing - Petty
Pool/Billiards - Reyes
Bullfighting - Manolete

[RaceBookJoe]

Coaches : Lombardi, Wooden , Stengal , Jackson ??

[cj]

Lebron named Jordan, Bird, Magic, and the Big O to his Mt. Rushmore of basketball players.

Now, I won't pretend to have seen Wilt play, but looking at his numbers, how is even possible that Wilt wouldn't be on anyone's top 4? His stats are insane.

[MutuelClerk]

Hockey-Orr

Basketball-Magic

Hockey-Orr

Baseball-Ruth

Hockey-Orr

Football-Brown

Hockey-Orr

Tennis-Laver

Hockey-Orr

Golf- Nicklaus

Hockey-Orr

Boxing-Ali

Hockey-Orr

Soccer-Pele

Hockey-Orr

Horse Racing- Secretariat

Hockey-Orr

Wrestling- Foley Is God.

Hockey-Orr

Poker-Brunson

[MutuelClerk]

Oh yeah....

Minor League baseball- Jordan.

[Valuist]

Oh yeah....

Minor League baseball- Jordan.

Or maybe Tracy McGrady.

[RaceBookJoe]

Oh yeah....

Minor League baseball- Jordan.

Love it haha...since you listed it, here ya go

pro-wrestling :single - Flair, Hogan , Sammartino , Austin
tag-team : Steiners, LOD, Dudleys ,Midnight Express/Harts?
factions : 4 Horseman, DX , NWO, Freebirds?

[TheEdge07]

Trainer- Jacobson..:bang: :bang:


Jockey-Willie Shoemaker

[Robert Goren]

Lebron named Jordan, Bird, Magic, and the Big O to his Mt. Rushmore of basketball players.

Now, I won't pretend to have seen Wilt play, but looking at his numbers, how is even possible that Wilt wouldn't be on anyone's top 4? His stats are insane.I would replace Bird with Bill Russell. You had to see him play, because his numbers aren't that great unless you count championships. He dominated Wilt head to head. At some point the man who looks like a H.S. senior playing against 7th graders bumps Magic or Robertson. Probably a bit early yet though.

[ManU918]

He dominated Wilt head to head. .

Wilt had more points, rebounds and assists when it came to games against Russell. So I'm not sure how Russell dominated Wilt head to head. If your talking about wins and losses, I would consider that more a team feat than a personal one. Wilt was the better of the two. Nobody will ever average 40 points in a game let alone 50.

[Robert Goren]

Wilt had more points, rebounds and assists when it came to games against Russell. So I'm not sure how Russell dominated Wilt head to head. If your talking about wins and losses, I would consider that more a team feat than a personal one. Wilt was the better of the two. Nobody will ever average 40 points in a game let alone 50.If you had actual watched the games rather than looking at stats you would know what I was talking about. Stats never tell the whole story and sometimes don't tell any of it. There is stat that does matter here. Russell 11 Wilt 2. That is NBA championships won. Russell also won 2 NCAA championships to Wilt's none. Russell has 13 championships think about that! 13! In fairness to Wilt, it was often 5 against 1.

[rastajenk]

The fact that the real Mt. Rushmore has Roosevelt means that the fourth spot on any list is open to the highest bidder, the best marketing, or the subjective whims of a particular era.

[ManU918]

If you had actual watched the games rather than looking at stats you would know what I was talking about. Stats never tell the whole story and sometimes don't tell any of it. There is stat that does matter here. Russell 11 Wilt 2. That is NBA championships won. Russell also won 2 NCAA championships to Wilt's none. Russell has 13 championships think about that! 13! In fairness to Wilt, it was often 5 against 1.

11 to 2 don't mean anything to me. Championships are a team accomplishment. Both teams equal needing a center you would take Russell over Wilt?

When they played each other:
Chamberlain outscored Russell 30 PPG to 14 PPG
Chamberlain outrebounded Russell 28 PPG to 22 RPG

Look at the teams Russell played on and look at the teams Chamberlain played on.

[Robert Goren]

11 to 2 don't mean anything to me. Championships are a team accomplishment. Both teams equal needing a center you would take Russell over Wilt?

When they played each other:
Chamberlain outscored Russell 30 PPG to 14 PPG
Chamberlain outrebounded Russell 28 PPG to 22 RPG

Look at the teams Russell played on and look at the teams Chamberlain played on.Then we disagree. 11 to 2 tells the story for me. If it were 3 to 2, I might go the other way but 11 to 2 is just to big a gap. Plus I saw them play and it was clear to me as I watched that Russell was the better player.

[ManU918]

Then we disagree. 11 to 2 tells the story for me. If it were 3 to 2, I might go the other way but 11 to 2 is just to big a gap. Plus I saw them play and it was clear to me as I watched that Russell was the better player.

So I guess Terry Bradshaw was better than Dan Marino too... right?

[Robert Goren]

So I guess Terry Bradshaw was better than Dan Marino too... right?Well, Marino threw more passes. And there have been some really bad QBs who have won super bowls. But when you compare Marino to Montana, the rings come into play. Basketball is more of a player game. Jordon won championships with barely average NBA players . Bird and Magic had a good supporting cast. To answer your question, Marino was probably better but not by as much as you think. Bradshaw was a great QB who completed passes when important games were on the line. Something a lot of other QBs had a chance to do and didn't. Marino didn't get that many chances.

[ManU918]

Well, Marino threw more passes. And there have been some really bad QBs who have won super bowls. But when you compare Marino to Montana, the rings come into play. Basketball is more of a player game. Jordon won championships with barely average NBA players . Bird and Magic had a good supporting cast. To answer your question, Marino was probably better but not by as much as you think. Bradshaw was a great QB who completed passes when important games were on the line. Something a lot of other QBs had a chance to do and didn't. Marino didn't get that many chances.

Not sure where Montana comes into play. I never once compared Marino to Montana. I'm comparing Marino to Bradshaw.

Jordan "with barely average players" Wow... Last time I checked Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were far from barely average. They are both in the Hall of Fame. You do realize in 93-94 when Jordan retired the Bulls went 55-27 right?

[Robert Goren]

Not sure where Montana comes into play. I never once compared Marino to Montana. I'm comparing Marino to Bradshaw.

Jordan "with barely average players" Wow... Last time I checked Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were far from barely average. They are both in the Hall of Fame.Rodman in the HOF is a joke. A case can be made for Pippen, But Pippen without Jordon was a pretty ordinary NBA "star" player. Sorta like Mello in today's NBA if that good. Jordon like Russell made his team mates look a lot better than they were.

[ManU918]

Rodman in the HOF is a joke. A case can be made for Pippen, But Pippen without Jordon was a pretty ordinary NBA "star" player. Sorta like Mello in today's NBA if that good. Jordon like Russell made his team mates look a lot better than they were.

In 93-94 the Bulls went 55-27 without him..That's not a record a bunch of ordinary players accomplish.

[Robert Goren]

In 93-94 the Bulls went 55-27 without him..That's not a record a bunch of ordinary players accomplish.Denver went 57-25 last year.

[ManU918]

Denver went 57-25 last year.

Are you really gonna try to compare a Bulls team from the 90s to last year's Nugget's? I assumed you were old when you said you watched Wilt and Russell play. That comment sounds like something a 13 year old would say.

[speed]

Jordon won championships with barely average NBA players .
My Fruit Loops are all over the kitchen table after reading this. My 2 year old looked at me and goes i'm not cleaning that up. :lol:

[MutuelClerk]

Jordan took over when Magic and Bird were past their prime. He took over when the league expanded. He took over when the league needed their next superstar. Admittedly I think he's the anti Christ. So there is that. I'll let you two go back to arguing now. Back to hockey. Enjoy.

[burnsy]

Sports movies: Rudy, Rudy, Rudy......5 Ft nothing without an once of talent......I love that scene.

[thaskalos]

Are you really gonna try to compare a Bulls team from the 90s to last year's Nugget's? I assumed you were old when you said you watched Wilt and Russell play. That comment sounds like something a 13 year old would say.
The Bulls were dismantled after Jordan's departure from the team.

Can you name a single Bulls player who distinguished himself with another squad during the post-Jordan era??

[aardvark]

Hockey-Orr

Basketball-Magic

Hockey-Orr

Baseball-Ruth

Hockey-Orr

Football-Brown

Hockey-Orr

Tennis-Laver

Hockey-Orr

Golf- Nicklaus

Hockey-Orr

Boxing-Ali

Hockey-Orr

Soccer-Pele

Hockey-Orr

Horse Racing- Secretariat

Hockey-Orr

Wrestling- Foley Is God.

Hockey-Orr

Poker-Brunson
Gretzky was known as "The Great Gretzky" but Bobby Orr was the greatest.

[ManU918]

The Bulls were dismantled after Jordan's departure from the team.

Can you name a single Bulls player who distinguished himself with another squad during the post-Jordan era??

In 93-94 they were dismantled at 55-27? Interesting. Jordan and Pippen are 2 years apart in age. What did you expect Pippen to go to another team and average 20 PPG at the age of 34? Rodman is two years older than Jordan and had a lot of success before getting to Chicago. Not sure what your post is trying to accomplish. Are you agreeing with the other poster and saying Jordan won his championships "with barely average players"?

[thaskalos]

In 93-94 they were dismantled at 55-27? Interesting. Jordan and Pippen are 2 years apart in age. What did you expect Pippen to go to another team and average 20 PPG at the age of 34? Rodman is two years older than Jordan and had a lot of success before getting to Chicago. Not sure what your post is trying to accomplish. Are you agreeing with the other poster and saying Jordan won his championships "with barely average players"?
I am saying that Pipen was the luckiest player to ever walk the earth. Top-50 player all time? That's a joke. Without Jordan, he wouldn't crack the top 500.

What proof do you have that the Jordan-less Bulls were better than last year's Nuggets?

[Stillriledup]

I am saying that Pippen was the luckiest player to ever walk the earth. Top-50 player all time? That's a joke. Without Jordan, he wouldn't crack the top 500.

What proof do you have that the Jordan-less Bulls were better than last year's Nuggets?

I think that by definition, the other players on the Bulls were fantastic...they had to have been because of the amount of titles the Bulls won. Lebron was in Cleveland with a bad roster and he wasnt able to win a title with those guys, so you sort of need pretty good talent around you to win.

[thaskalos]

I think that by definition, the other players on the Bulls were fantastic...they had to have been because of the amount of titles the Bulls won. Lebron was in Cleveland with a bad roster and he wasnt able to win a title with those guys, so you sort of need pretty good talent around you to win.
Jordan's supporting cast was obviously better than Lebron's in Cleveland...but they were far from "fantastic".

Just a bunch of good role players...brought together by a basketball-playing god.

[TheEdge07]

The Bulls were dismantled after Jordan's departure from the team.

Can you name a single Bulls player who distinguished himself with another squad during the post-Jordan era??

Scottie Pippen with the trailblazers one quarter away from beating the Lakers..

[ManU918]

Jordan's supporting cast was obviously better than Lebron's in Cleveland...but they were far from "fantastic".

Just a bunch of good role players...brought together by a basketball-playing god.

So good role players make the NBA Hall of Fame, go to the all-star game 7 times, win an all-star MVP, are named to the 50th anniversary team, nba all defensive team 10 times, all nba team 7 times and score 19,000 points?

[MadWorld]

Jordan's supporting cast was obviously better than Lebron's in Cleveland...but they were far from "fantastic".

Just a bunch of good role players...brought together by a basketball-playing god.

1994 All Star-Game
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_NBA_All-Star_Game

Two All-Star Game Starters for the Bulls (Pippen and Armstrong) and one reserve (Grant).

[Stillriledup]

Jordan's supporting cast was obviously better than Lebron's in Cleveland...but they were far from "fantastic".

Just a bunch of good role players...brought together by a basketball-playing god.

I don't think anyone is good enough to win SIX titles with a bunch of role players and himself. Jordan wasnt Shaq or Wilt, he was a small shooting guard, a guy like that can't win all by himself with a few role players.

[RaceBookJoe]

Paxson wasn't a bad guard, Grant was a solid forward, and old man Cartwright held his own.

[thaskalos]

Paxson wasn't a bad guard, Grant was a solid forward, and old man Cartwright held his own.
Paxson, Grant and Cartwright. There is an all-star line-up right there. :)

[RaceBookJoe]

Paxson, Grant and Cartwright. There is an all-star line-up right there. :)

Funny, I don't see the words all-star in my post , just saying that they did their job.

[thaskalos]

Funny, I don't see the words all-star in my post , just saying that they did their job.
Sorry, Joe...I wasn't knocking your post. In fact...I agree with it. The "all-star" comment was meant for someone else.

My point is that Jordan's supporting cast cannot, in good conscience, be called anything more than just serviceable. Jordan did more with less than any other player in the history of the game.

[headhawg]

My point is that Jordan's supporting cast cannot, in good conscience, be called anything more than just serviceable. Jordan did more with less than any other player in the history of the game.You must not count defense in your judgement of players. If Pippen doesn't guard Magic I am not sure that the Bulls win that championship against the Lakers. Magic was eating Jordan alive. And you must have forgotten how good Grant was playing the point on their full court press and on defense in general. So if a guy doesn't average 20 he must be just "serviceable".

[cj's dad]

I did see Wilt play; he was so unstoppable as to defy logic, I stood next to him at the then known "Baltimore Civic Center" the guy was very imposing. His thighs to a then 15/16 year old looked like tree trunks. And for those of you that think Bill Russell was his equal? dreamland. Wilt took him to school 90% of the time!!

Lebron named Jordan, Bird, Magic, and the Big O to his Mt. Rushmore of basketball players.

Now, I won't pretend to have seen Wilt play, but looking at his numbers, how is even possible that Wilt wouldn't be on anyone's top 4? His stats are insane.

[mountainman]

My 4-man mt rushmore of sports: Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Jim Thorpe.

[Stillriledup]

My 4-man mt rushmore of sports: Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Jim Thorpe.

Wow, that's a great list.

I think Ruth and Jordan have to be on the list....the other 2 spots are up for debate. Good list Mark.

[RaceBookJoe]

Sorry, Joe...I wasn't knocking your post. In fact...I agree with it. The "all-star" comment was meant for someone else.

My point is that Jordan's supporting cast cannot, in good conscience, be called anything more than just serviceable. Jordan did more with less than any other player in the history of the game.

I apologize for sounding snippy, all I meant was that those 3 were still solid players. Paxson,Grant were better than average, Cartwright was solid but just a guy, even Armstrong was good if I remember correctly. I do agree that all of them, plus Pippen were lucky in the fact that they got to play with Jordan and be coached by Jackson. My biggest gripe with pro-hoop is that its probably the least team-oriented of the major sports. Maybe, to keep this thread on topic, we should do a Mt. Rushmore of Chicago bull role players during the Jordan years haha

[MadWorld]

Paxson, Grant and Cartwright. There is an all-star line-up right there. :)

And if you remove the top two players from the Lakers Championship teams their lineup is

2001: Horace Grant, Fox, Fisher
2002: Samaki Walker, Fox, Fisher

Much of a difference?

[MadWorld]

Sorry, Joe...I wasn't knocking your post. In fact...I agree with it. The "all-star" comment was meant for someone else.

My point is that Jordan's supporting cast cannot, in good conscience, be called anything more than just serviceable. Jordan did more with less than any other player in the history of the game.

Three All-Stars from the same team the year after he left the team. How many do you want to see to call it more than serviceable? The team wasn't great but they were clearly much better than ok.

It's ok to say you misremembered it btw.

[jballscalls]

my favorite was they asked Kobe at the press conference about his Mt. Rushmore and he said "I'm an Italian kid, how many are on Mt. Rushmore again?" He lived in Italy from age 6 to 13 LOL

[TJDave]

Mickey Mantle, Gale Sayers, Julius Erving, Jack Nicklaus

[cj's dad]

My 4-man mt rushmore of sports: Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Jim Thorpe.

Most over hyped athlete of my lifeitme:

Jaw broken by Ken Norton

Knocked down by:
Sonny Banks
Henry Cooper
Joe Frazier
Chuck Wepner

Lost to:
Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Leon Spinks
Trevor Berbick

[highnote]

Ruth was great in his day against white players, but how good would he have been if black players were allowed in the major leagues back then?

I might take Kareem over Wilt.

Gretzky and Bobby Orr in hockey.

Great factoid about Gretzky...

Athletes can be measured by the number of standard deviations they are from the average athlete.

Guys like Ted Williams and Gehrig, for example, might be two standard deviations better than average.

Jordon and some others might be 3 standard deviations better than average.

Gretzky is the only pro athlete 4 standard deviations better than average.

Now, I don't know what measurements were used, but it's an interesting notion.

Mike and Mike talking today about the "mt rushmore" of sports....the greatest 4 players in each of their sports...heck, you can even do the mt rushmore of actors, or singers or musical acts or even sports characters.

Fire away with Mt Rushmore.

The "Sure things" in Mt Rushmore are:

baseball: Ruth
Hockey: Gretzky
Basketball: Wilt, MJ
Sports Characters in movies: Rocky
Music: Beatles
Racehorses: Secretariat
Golf: Jack, Arnie
Auto Racing: Petty, Dale

[RaceBookJoe]

Most over hyped athlete of my lifeitme:

Jaw broken by Ken Norton

Knocked down by:
Sonny Banks
Henry Cooper
Joe Frazier
Chuck Wepner

Lost to:
Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Leon Spinks
Trevor Berbick

Ryan Leaf on line 1 for you.

[TJDave]

In his prime Ali was the best, period. I didn't care for his politics or bravado but he sure could box. Never been anyone close to his talents, before or after.

[cj's dad]

In his prime Ali was the best, period. I didn't care for his politics or bravado but he sure could box. Never been anyone close to his talents, before or after.

49-0 w/ 46-Ko's ! Ring a bell. Even I do not believe he is a top 4 candidate for the so-called Mt. Rushmore - I can't think of any boxer who could surpass other candidates from other sports.

[Stillriledup]

Reading highnote's post about Gretzky got me thinking (yep, that's the wood burning you smell!) about the differences between sports and how some sports might be easier to "distinguish" oneself. Looking at major team sports, you have the NBA and NHL there's 5 players and 6 players out there on the court/ice during the game. In the MLB, you have 9 players out there and in the NFL you have what, 22?

The most dominant players we have seen in our lifetimes are Gretzky and Jordan....both players (coincidence or not) who played in the games where the least amount of players are on the floor/ice at one time. When there are only 5 players out there, Jordan was 20% of his team's players.

Its also known that the NBA markets stars, they don't market teams....and they're really good at what they do...which is maybe why you believe that Jordan and other NBA stars are somehow "better" individually than a star in the MLB or the NFL or even hockey, its the NBA "machine" that has bludgeoned you for decades about how great their "individuals" are.


There's a LOT more to this Mt Rushmore thing than meets the eye.

[cj]

Reading highnote's post about Gretzky got me thinking (yep, that's the wood burning you smell!) about the differences between sports and how some sports might be easier to "distinguish" oneself. Looking at major team sports, you have the NBA and NHL there's 5 players and 6 players out there on the court/ice during the game. In the MLB, you have 9 players out there and in the NFL you have what, 22?

Ummm, how about 11. I mean if you are only going to count one side in the other sports, why double it for football?

I think you have to consider how much players handle the ball (puck), how often they are actually involved in the play, how often they are on the field (ice), etc.

[Stillriledup]

Ummm, how about 11. I mean if you are only going to count one side in the other sports, why double it for football?

I think you have to consider how much players handle the ball (puck), how often they are actually involved in the play, how often they are on the field (ice), etc.

Good points, you do have to consider what percentage of the time the player is taking part in the action.

The reason i put 22 is because the 11 defensive guys are totally different from the 11 offensive guys....where in the other sports, like the NBA, the same 5 guys play offense and defense....so, in the NFL you're really 1/22 and in the NBA you're 1/5.

[reckless]

Great factoid about Gretzky...

Athletes can be measured by the number of standard deviations they are from the average athlete.

Guys like Ted Williams and Gehrig, for example, might be two standard deviations better than average.

Jordon and some others might be 3 standard deviations better than average.

Gretzky is the only pro athlete 4 standard deviations better than average.

Now, I don't know what measurements were used, but it's an interesting notion.

This is interesting to me too. Are there any links or articles discussing standard deviations that you know of? Please link if you do. Thanks.

Heard this on the radio and it pertains to Bill Russell, whom no one argues belongs on the NBA's Mount Rushmore. Sometimes individual stats are very meaningful and sometimes... well, meaningless?

Back to Russell:

while in high school (Oakland, CA), his teams won the state championships twice;

in college (Univ. of San Francisco), his teams won the NCAA championship twice;

in the NBA (Boston Celtics), his teams won the NBA championship 11 times.

[TheEdge07]

Broadcast


Vin Scully

[elysiantraveller]

My 4-man mt rushmore of sports: Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, Jim Thorpe.

I would take out Thorpe and put in Michael Phelps.

[PhantomOnTour]

On my Mount Rushmore of Sports I would have:

Baseball
Football
Horse Racing
Soccer

:)

[TJDave]

I would take out Thorpe and put in Michael Phelps.

Michael Phelps?

I had to look him up, had no clue.

[cj]

Michael Phelps?

I had to look him up, had no clue.

You need to get out of that cave now and then!

[rastajenk]

If you're going Olympian, there has to be some love for Jesse Owens.

[highnote]

Broadcast


Vin Scully


Doc Emerick

[highnote]

I would take out Thorpe and put in Michael Phelps.


Thorpe excelled in several sports. Phelps only in one.

Thorpe also has a town named after him. :D

And a giant statue of him is in the NFL Hall of Fame lobby.

Wikipedia: "Considered one of the most versatile athletes of modern sports, he won Olympic gold medals for the 1912 pentathlon and decathlon, played American football (collegiate and professional), and also played professional baseball and basketball."

"In a poll of sports fans conducted by ABC Sports, Thorpe was voted the Greatest Athlete of the Twentieth Century out of 15 other athletes including Muhammad Ali, Babe Ruth, Jesse Owens, Wayne Gretzky, Jack Nicklaus, and Michael Jordan."