Met Mile moved to Belmont Day, 2nd richest in No Amer racing

[cj]

http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/belmont-stakes-day-now-second-richest-day-in-north-american-racing-with-8-million-in-purses/

[Rise Over Run]

This was always a Memorial Day staple; how much does it really add to the Belmont "Under"Card? Not a big fan of this move.

[Tom]

My first thoughts.....bad idea.

[tanner12oz]

Wow what a big day of racing

[ManU918]

I like it.... It's not like their isn't any other good races on Memorial Day.... It makes Belmont Day that much better IMO.

[Rex Phinney]

This was always a Memorial Day staple; how much does it really add to the Belmont "Under"Card? Not a big fan of this move.

I agree, the Met Mile carries it's own day of racing, putting it on the Belmont undercard seems like a bad idea.

[the little guy]

Anyone know, off-hand, what the handle was on the 2013 Met Mile?

[RXB]

I like it.... There's plenty of other good races on Memorial day.

Such as....?

[RXB]

Anyone know, off-hand, what the handle was on the 2013 Met Mile?

Not including multi-race pools, it was around $1.9 million for WPS, ex, tri, super.

[ManU918]

Such as....?

Won't the Sands Point still run on Memorial Day? Also Lone Star and Churchill have stakes races on Memorial Day. And I'm sure Santa Anita will also have a big card that day not that Hollywood isn't around.

[RXB]

Not including multi-race pools, it was around $1.9 million for WPS, ex, tri, super.

Actually just under $1.8 million for the single-race wagers (I accidentally including the double pool in my initial post).

[wisconsin]

Not a fan of messing with traditions.

[classhandicapper]

I have mixed feelings about this. It could turn out to be the economically correct decision while disappointing some fans.

The Met has long been my favorite race of the year other than the Triple Crown and BC races (the Test is a close second). Historically it has drawn such a strong and deep field I would actually look forward to seeing the entries and spending that day at the track just to see that race. I am probably slightly less likely to go to the track that day now and no more likely to go the Belmont since I am always there anyway. Then again, I'm not sure either the Met or Test are quite what they were many years ago (either quality or fan draw). Still great races, but not "events" the way I perceived them a long time ago.

[Robert Goren]

How much more handle are they adding to Belmont Day and how much are they losing on Memorial Day? I am not sure it is a net gain. The trend is to run more big races on the same day instead of spreading them out. I personally don't like it.

[the little guy]

How much more handle are they adding to Belmont Day and how much are they losing on Memorial Day? I am not sure it is a net gain. The trend is to run more big races on the same day instead of spreading them out. I personally don't like it.


You're not sure it's a net gain? Honestly? You saw the handle was $1.7 million and you aren't sure it will be higher on Belmont Day?

[Tom]

I have mixed feelings about this. It could turn out to be the economically correct decision while disappointing some fans.


As a fan, I only care about one possibility.:rolleyes:
It's like bringing your desert and appetizer with the meal.

[classhandicapper]

The handle is almost guaranteed to be higher for the Met on Belmont day, but if you ran some solid listed stake in that spot instead it would also have a very good handle (lower than the Met of course). So now IMO NYRA is almost guaranteed to get more handle on the Met/Belmont day than it would have had otherwise, but a lower handle on Memorial day because there won't be a Met driving interest and a modest attendance increase. The difference is the net gain or loss. If the Met is a good deep field, I think it has to be a net + for NYRA. It's just not as huge as comparing the handle on the Met on either day in isolation.

[RXB]

Won't the Sands Point still run on Memorial Day? Also Lone Star and Churchill have stakes races on Memorial Day. And I'm sure Santa Anita will also have a big card that day not that Hollywood isn't around.

I don't think too many people will be going to Belmont just to watch the Gr2 Sands Point. And the Gr3 Lone Star Handicap is not exactly a grabber, nor is the Gr3 stakes at Churchill that day.

They're trying to make Belmont Stakes Day into a huge showcase event and I understand that. I guess essentially what they're saying is that efforts to get people to go to a racetrack on any day that doesn't feature a major 3YO dirt race is a waste of time. Memorial Day attendance at Belmont last year was only 11,664 despite nice weather and three G1 stakes.

[KirisClown]

Usually I don't like changes but I'm excited about these.. Belmont Stakes Day is going to be phenomenal.

Let's just hope the horses that SHOULD run in these stakes actually show up to run in them..

[Robert Fischer]

This is going to be a Triple Crown attempt year anyway.

[Redboard]

:ThmbUp:




There are only three days in the year that casual fans tune in, and Belmont day is one of them. Pumping it up with more graded stakes is a good idea IMO, and hopefully aid the cause of growing the fan base.


Would like to see Wise Dan give this race a try this year.

[dilanesp]

It's a sign of the times, I guess.

Back in the day, the Met Mile could be used as a PREP for the Belmont (see Arts and Letters, Conquistador Cielo).

[iceknight]

This is going to be a Triple Crown attempt year anyway. You stole my comment, :lol:
But what happened to giving some 3 yr old a chance to run in the Met mil and the Belmont.. ok never mind. I personally feel that the Met Mile held its own very well on that date. Instead of promoting it more as a prestigious event (for 3 & older) with fanfare, by clubbing way too many big races one day.. they are slightly tipping it towards logistical troublespots for others involved with these races.
Supply-Demand.

However, for the fans, it is a great opportunity to see top 3 year olds and top older horses on the same day, so it is a great move from the angle - esp for fans who travel from afar!

[Valuist]

Usually I don't like changes but I'm excited about these.. Belmont Stakes Day is going to be phenomenal.

Let's just hope the horses that SHOULD run in these stakes actually show up to run in them..

It already was a great card. What racing fan wouldn't already be betting the Belmont Day card? All it does is weaken the Memorial Day card. Thumbs down. :ThmbDown:

[andtheyreoff]

Bad idea.

Sure, Belmont day will be awesome, but what about Memorial Day weekend? The only two stakes staying on that weekend- unless NYRA does some rearranging- are the Sheepshead Bay and the Sands Point. Not exactly Met Mile-Ogden Phipps-Acorn.

While handle on Belmont day will be up for sure, I wonder if the inevitable handle decline on Memorial Day weekend will make up for it.

[JustRalph]

I am sure they have calculators in NY State.

Somebody did the math and made this decision. Sounds like Belmont day just got even more interesting. Instead of waiting around for the Belmont, one more stake with a signature name, can't hurt at all. Huzzah!

[the little guy]

Bad idea.

Sure, Belmont day will be awesome, but what about Memorial Day weekend? The only two stakes staying on that weekend- unless NYRA does some rearranging- are the Sheepshead Bay and the Sands Point. Not exactly Met Mile-Ogden Phipps-Acorn.

While handle on Belmont day will be up for sure, I wonder if the inevitable handle decline on Memorial Day weekend will make up for it.

The truth is that holidays in the Summer are not great days for sports and entertainment. Talk to some MLB teams about how they feel about holiday games. Given the handle was a relatively strong $17 million on Memorial Day 2013, with those four Stakes, it's hard to understand how the move can possibly be criticized from a handle perspective.

I understand tradition and history, and surely everyone will not agree, but making a handle argument against the move will not hold up to scrutiny.

[Valuist]

I don't really understand the "casual fan" argument. A casual fan doesn't know Tizway or Bribon from a $10k maiden claimer. I can't imagine there's a husband and wife on the fence to go to Belmont but the presence of the Westchester winner, or Carter winner clinches it for them. The Met Mile is one of the favorite races for the hard core fans.

Belmont is also taking a chance the weather cooperates. When you load up your big stakes on one day, you take the chance all those races will be effected.

[NTamm1215]

For everyone wondering about handle decreases, consider the following numbers:

The verticals (WPS, Ex, Tri, Super) of the three graded stakes on Belmont day that were part of the Pick 4 (Just a Game - field of six, Woody Stephens - field of 11, Manhattan - field of 9) plus the three Pick 4s and the Pick 6 handled a total of $17,820,901.

The entire Memorial Day card handled $16,191,654.

The amount of money in play on Belmont day is incredible.

[cj]

The amount of money in play on Belmont day is incredible.

We'll see how it works out, doesn't hurt to try. The real question is will increasing the quality of the undercard increase handle? In other words, could they have written an overnight 100k stakes with a big field and gotten similar?

I'm all for trying new things, just need to wait and see if it works.

I haven't read this close enough to draw any conclusions, but there is some interesing data:

http://timeformusblog.com/2014/02/07/bang-for-your-buck-at-belmont/

[VeryOldMan]

It's a sign of the times, I guess.

Back in the day, the Met Mile could be used as a PREP for the Belmont (see Arts and Letters, Conquistador Cielo).

You beat me to the punch - CC's Met Mile/Belmont combo (in a span of 6 days!) remains one of my favorite picks for amazing back-to-back performances.

[Al Gobbi]

I expect to see a similar schedule of stakes on Travers Day and possibly JCGC day.

[cj]

You beat me to the punch - CC's Met Mile/Belmont combo (in a span of 6 days!) remains one of my favorite picks for amazing back-to-back performances.

Unless David Jacobson gets a really good 3yo, or Dutrow gets back in the game somehow, doubtful anybody would even consider it.

[tophatmert]

Unless David Jacobson gets a really good 3yo, or Dutrow gets back in the game somehow, doubtful anybody would even consider it.
Jacobsen still might try it! The Met might attract more 3yo's this way. Horses like Bodemeister and other speedy types might find getting weight and shortening up more attractive than a mile and a half.

[TravisVOX]

The ability for generic stakes races to attract added handle, increased attendance and just lots of warm and fuzzy feelings has gone away. While the Met Mile is FAR from a generic stake, financially speaking, this is a no-brainer attempt at maximizing it. It's also not permanent and should it fail (it won't) they can always move it back.

There is no excuse to not play the races on Belmont Stakes Day for those fringe fans worth an extra 5-10% in handle. This is also a decent "insurance package" against the lack of a Triple Crown attempt as well.

All that needs to happen now is for the racing office to pack the starting gate. Nothing kills handle like a small field. Panza was an excellent hire and I'm sure he's already working the phone to line-up the contenders.

[lamboguy]

Unless David Jacobson gets a really good 3yo, or Dutrow gets back in the game somehow, doubtful anybody would even consider it.Woody Stephens did it with CONQUISTADOR CIELO. i was stupid back then like i am today, i asked Woody 2 days before the Belmont, how do you know your horse can go a mile and a half having raced 6 days prior. he answered me, shortpants, i don't send out no short horses!

[Stillriledup]

Woody Stephens did it with CONQUISTADOR CIELO. i was stupid back then like i am today, i asked Woody 2 days before the Belmont, how do you know your horse can go a mile and a half having raced 6 days prior. he answered me, shortpants, i don't send out no short horses!

Shortpants? :D

[VeryOldMan]

Unless David Jacobson gets a really good 3yo, or Dutrow gets back in the game somehow, doubtful anybody would even consider it.

LOL - yeah, it's different somehow. I don't remember people wondering whether Woody Stephens had his stable jacked-up 30+ years ago, but maybe we were naive.

[bks]

Like the move. If Shared Belief or some other horse is going for the TC, we're talking record crowd and handle given good weather.

[cj]

Like the move. If Shared Belief or some other horse is going for the TC, we're talking record crowd and handle given good weather.

If any horse is going for the Triple Crown, you could run 10 claimers and the Belmont and it would be record crowd and handle.

[ronsmac]

I love it, Belmont Stakes day is the only day I play Belmont all year. This makes it more appealing to me.

[maclr11]

Here's how I see it

When the eyes of the world are on racing
Like Belmont day, lets put our best foot forward. The best horses, the best races. To those inside the game its a change, but for those outside that the sport needs to start to attract again, having central days where all the good horses or a lots of them run on one day it does tons for the casual fan/new fan who the game is trying to turn into serious fans.

I like it, it'll make for a great day of racing.

[OntheRail]

Anyone else catch the part about increased cost to get in on the day?

Price to be announced at a later date.

[Cholly]

Looks brilliant from this POV. Heretofore, there were many big days, but only two super-days in racing: Derby Day and BC Saturday. Now Belmont Day has potential to become a third. If successful, it can expand the brand in a metric that can’t be measured merely by the handle or attendance of one or two days.

It has one huge advantage vis’ a vis’ the Breeder’s Cup: calendar position. Buried in the middle of football season, the Breeders Cup will always be preaching to the choir and nobody else. Derby Day to Belmont Day take place during the dead period in the sports world; College hoops are done, and baseball has yet to heat up. The greater world might actually take notice.

A couple of other things:
• The largest purse increase actually goes to the Ogden Phipps and one of the largest goes to the Acorn. Giving the event a distaff side is of paramount importance.
• Coming 5 weeks after Derby Day, it has the potential to build on rivalries created in the stakes on that day’s undercard.

It’s out-of–the box thinking that NYRA said they wanted when they went outside the racing world for a CEO. Who cares if Kay doesn’t know that races aren’t matches—he knows marketing and he’s figured out a way to dramatically change the landscape of the racing season.

[devilsbag]

Brooklyn on Friday then the Met on Saturday, so it's a no-brainer to move the Suburban to that Sunday.

Two potential Triple Crown winners on the same weekend!

[RXB]

The ability for generic stakes races to attract added handle, increased attendance and just lots of warm and fuzzy feelings has gone away. While the Met Mile is FAR from a generic stake, financially speaking, this is a no-brainer attempt at maximizing it.

Every older horse stakes race in North America is basically a "generic stake" these days.

[Valuist]

I'm starting to change my mind. Not that I think its the right thing to do, but from a self serving standpoint. I've missed 2 of the last 3 Memorial Day cards. I never miss a Belmont Stakes day card. With the Met Mile no longer on the Memorial day program, I just won't even bother with it. Let's face it; with wives and/or kids, one can't always devote as much time as they want to the track. Now its a lot easier to pass on the Memorial day card.

[PhantomOnTour]

I do not like this move and would prefer to see the Met Mile remain on Memorial Day.

[iceknight]

You beat me to the punch - CC's Met Mile/Belmont combo (in a span of 6 days!) remains one of my favorite picks for amazing back-to-back performances. Slightly off topic from thread title.. but I just went back and watched CC's Belmont race of '82. In the final 100 yards does his tail look funny? kinda like thinned out and- longer than normal?
HaSN_GDvdk4

[Tom]

I do not like this move and would prefer to see the Met Mile remain on Memorial Day.

Look at the upside, POT, this opens up room on the holiday card for a turf sprint. :jump: :jump:

[PhantomOnTour]

Look at the upside, POT, this opens up room on the holiday card for a turf sprint. :jump: :jump:
Actually, I would prefer a Quarter Horse Turf race...220yds
Can that be far off?...quarters on the grass

[Robert Goren]

You're not sure it's a net gain? Honestly? You saw the handle was $1.7 million and you aren't sure it will be higher on Belmont Day?The net I was talking about included such factors as the race that replaces it on Memorial Day and the race it replaces on Belmont Day. It is called looking at the whole picture. All thing considered, it may be a net gain, but at this point I am not sure.
The best argument for moving the race is that you exposing the large audience for the Belmont to horses in the handicap division and hopefully creating increase interest in it, bring larger handles down road later in the summer.

[Robert Fischer]

Here's how I see it

When the eyes of the world are on racing
Like Belmont day, lets put our best foot forward. The best horses, the best races. To those inside the game its a change, but for those outside that the sport needs to start to attract again, having central days where all the good horses or a lots of them run on one day it does tons for the casual fan/new fan who the game is trying to turn into serious fans.

I like it, it'll make for a great day of racing.

Well said. :ThmbUp:


Right now, everybody has derby fever, and any card with the Belmont Stakes sounds like a 'lock' to be one of the premiere events of the racing year.

The Belmont is a race that can have a lot of variance, depending on who is going to run.

Like you say it's a spotlight day.

[Tom]

So what are the odds all the stakes will be televised?
I don;t see this as getting more exposure.....to who, everyone who would go the Belmont anyway? You now lose Met TV on the holiday, so isn't this less exposure?

[cj]

So what are the odds all the stakes will be televised?
I don;t see this as getting more exposure.....to who, everyone who would go the Belmont anyway? You now lose Met TV on the holiday, so isn't this less exposure?

Has the Met been televised the past few years? I'm thinking no...

[Redboard]

So what are the odds all the stakes will be televised?
I don;t see this as getting more exposure.....to who, everyone who would go the Belmont anyway? You now lose Met TV on the holiday, so isn't this less exposure?

1/5


NBC Sports will definitely televise them, if not NBC. At least the Met Mile will be available to more people in HD. NYRA should be congratulated for trying something. What would you suggest, giving away free umbrellas?

[Robert Goren]

1/5


NBC Sports will definitely televise them, if not NBC. At least the Met Mile will be available to more people in HD. NYRA should be congratulated for trying something. What would you suggest, giving away free umbrellas?Lobbying for cutting takeout. Lobbying to get rid of that fee on instate internet betting. The list can go for miles. How about gives us some better more wager friendly fields than what we have in the early races today. You asked.

[wisconsin]

Slightly off topic from thread title.. but I just went back and watched CC's Belmont race of '82. In the final 100 yards does his tail look funny? kinda like thinned out and- longer than normal?
HaSN_GDvdk4



Looks like it may have been braided-you see that more in the slop.

[Tom]

Has the Met been televised the past few years? I'm thinking no...

Actually, that might be true.
I'm probably watching it on TVG.

[Tom]

1/5


NBC Sports will definitely televise them, if not NBC. At least the Met Mile will be available to more people in HD. NYRA should be congratulated for trying something. What would you suggest, giving away free umbrellas?

A free umbrella is hard to beat.
You probably will get the Met and Belmont in NBC Sports - I seriously doubt much more than that.

What would I try?
Free parking and admission every day of the meet.
Free old-school back pocket programs.

[Cratos]

Moving the Met Mile to Belmont day was a master stroke on NYRA’s part.

They put the premier race on dirt at 1 mile on national television and that is good for racing.

The Belmont although one of America’s oldest and most prestigious thoroughbred races is often caught in a precarious position if the Kentucky Derby and Preakness don’t live up to expectations and the Met Mile will be an added attraction when the Derby and Preakness doesn’t deliver.

[Robert Goren]

I doubt if anybody is making a special effort to get to a place just to bet the Met Mile whether it is run on Memorial Day or Belmont Day.

[classhandicapper]

Has the Met been televised the past few years? I'm thinking no...

Yea, the other potential upside would be turning Belmont day into more of a national showcase day like the BC where it gets more hours of television courage.

[Cratos]

I doubt if anybody is making a special effort to get to a place just to bet the Met Mile whether it is run on Memorial Day or Belmont Day.

You are probably correct with your assertion, but I see the move by NYRA as increasing it's fan base.

That is make them fans and hopefully they will become bettors.

This is what is missing from horseracing today; not an alluring interest by management to increase it's fan base.

Yes, the life blood of horseracing is wagering, but the existing crop of fans/ bettors have just so much " blood" to give; it time to expand the "crop."

[Tom]

Why would the Met Mile attract new fans when they have no idea who the horses in it are to begin with? I seriously doubt the only race newbies will have a clue about is the Belmont Stakes, and that is now just one of a bunch now.
All the new fans that this stunt will bring in can probably ride together to the track. The one time they go.

Free admission and 25 cent hot dogs would get more newbies there.
JMHO.

[Cratos]

Why would the Met Mile attract new fans when they have no idea who the horses in it are to begin with? I seriously doubt the only race newbies will have a clue about is the Belmont Stakes, and that is now just one of a bunch now.
All the new fans that this stunt will bring in can probably ride together to the track. The one time they go.

Free admission and 25 cent hot dogs would get more newbies there.
JMHO.

You are missing a fundamental point; this is not about the Met Mile, it is about increasing the fan base.

If I remember correctly the nay sayers were against Monday night football and look at its impact today.

If you think cheap hot dogs and free admission is the answer to revitalizing horseracing then I will meet you at the cemetery because the burial is nearer than I thought.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I like it.... It's not like their isn't any other good races on Memorial Day.... It makes Belmont Day that much better IMO.

You know I was a little apprehensive when I first read this but I agree with you,this makes the day a total and complete blockbuster.I'm still going to be glued at the hip to Belmont during Memorial Day weekend because I love it.This addition makes Belmont Stakes day a damn holiday!I'm pretty excited.

[Tom]

You are missing a fundamental point; this is not about the Met Mile, it is about increasing the fan base.

If I remember correctly the nay sayers were against Monday night football and look at its impact today.

If you think cheap hot dogs and free admission is the answer to revitalizing horseracing then I will meet you at the cemetery because the burial is nearer than I thought.

Cheap hot dogs and fee admission will get them to the track one time.
Nothing is going to revitalize racing. It is not going to happen. You might pad the attendance roles one day, but I seriously doubt you will get that many more people than would normally come out for Belmont day. You might get a bigger handle, but people do not go the track for good reasons. There is no need to. Free hot dogs would be a good reason to go. Free admission would be a good reason every day of the week.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If any horse is going for the Triple Crown, you could run 10 claimers and the Belmont and it would be record crowd and handle.

HAHA!I was going to say Appaloosas! :D

[CincyHorseplayer]

Memorial is the unofficial beginning of summer.What player doesn't want to be at the track on that entire weekend?My year is marked with a big bright spot to be at the track this particular weekend.And I was reminded of it so much this year without having a hometrack due to reconstruction.

The other thing about the date change,if it sucks for whatever reason it's not set in stone,it can be changed back.I think it's a hit and doesn't need to.

And if we are talking completely personal perspectives.The Little Guy,you can tell them I could go for an all turf day on Memorial Day!

[Cratos]

Cheap hot dogs and fee admission will get them to the track one time.
Nothing is going to revitalize racing. It is not going to happen. You might pad the attendance roles one day, but I seriously doubt you will get that many more people than would normally come out for Belmont day. You might get a bigger handle, but people do not go the track for good reasons. There is no need to. Free hot dogs would be a good reason to go. Free admission would be a good reason every day of the week.

Let me understand your definition of "nothing". Because it is inconsistent with every prior definition that I have heard or read.

There were people who said the NFL would never be America's number sport, but the genius of the late Pete Rozelle along with others changed that assertion dramatically.

Remember when Japan rolled in with their gas efficient cars and America's auto industry was said to be your "ubiquitous " nothing " and said to be left for dead.

However look at the comparison today and you will see a dramatic change.

Yes horseracing needs change and new products to meet the existing fans needs while attracting new fans.

I believe this will start with a better information delivery system. Equibase, DRF, and others are outdated with their data which is as complicated as the IRS tax code.

Horseracing is a game of speed statistics associated with confounding constraints.

The personal computer which widely came into use in the late seventies along with the proper software is a good device for handling statistical data, but the data should be formatted correctly; beaten lengths, heads, noses, etc are not the right expressios because they are not uniquely defined.

Another issue is how many "so-called" figure makers understand that every North American racetrack is laid out for linear speed and angular speed. Also how many of them don't understand that a track surface is static and do not have speed.

I raise these issues because the potential fan is filled with "gamers" and have a good understanding of computers and statistics

Go after that group because they have money, talent, and the desire to compete;but management must change the industry to allow this to happen.

[dilanesp]

Running a big handicap race on Belmont day has been done before. Years back, they ran the Nassau County on Belmont day, and ABC covered it as part of the American Championship Racing Series.

Didn't do that much for the sport (although I still think the ACRS was a good idea).

[RXB]

At the top level of the sport, having the first half of the 3YO season as the be-all-end-all of a horse's career, with anything else as practically an afterthought is just stupid and self-defeating. It just begs for a rash of early retirements and a loss of interest in the bigger races, especially among older horses-- which is exactly what is happening.

Which leads into the wider problem for the game as a whole: it is impossible for the game to thrive with animals making as few starts seasonally and career-wise as they do now. IMPOSSIBLE. Marketing is just useless BS when your product is crappy. Plain and simple. You have to breed and train horses such that prospective owners will want to buy them, and prospective bettors will want to wager races of them. The worse that the horses are, and the fewer starts that they make, the less attractive they are to owners and bettors. That is the fundamental problem for horse racing; it's not what day the stakes are being run, it's that the day-to-day product for bettors is getting worse and the owners are sick of being handed vet bills up the yin-yang for horses that only start a few times a year.

Until the racing industry comes to grips with these facts and actually goes about changing things for the better, it doesn't really matter a flying frog-____ whether the Met Mile is scheduled on Memorial Day or Belmont Stakes day.

[dilanesp]

I am quite convinced that the reason why horse racing isn't popular with casual sports fans anymore is the short careers of top horses. Boxing has seen the same problem-- top fighters don't fight as much anymore, and the general public doesn't get to know who they are.

On the other hand, we have a separate problem with bettors, and that's all the competition from other forms of gambling that weren't available before.

[RXB]

For sure there is more competition now, but if the racing product was improved and the takeout was decreased they would be able to compete somewhat better for gambling dollars than they do now. Until the powers-that-be start moving for real on both of those fronts, the game will continue to decline.

[Robert Goren]

At the top level of the sport, having the first half of the 3YO season as the be-all-end-all of a horse's career, with anything else as practically an afterthought is just stupid and self-defeating. It just begs for a rash of early retirements and a loss of interest in the bigger races, especially among older horses-- which is exactly what is happening.

Which leads into the wider problem for the game as a whole: it is impossible for the game to thrive with animals making as few starts seasonally and career-wise as they do now. IMPOSSIBLE. Marketing is just useless BS when your product is crappy. Plain and simple. You have to breed and train horses such that prospective owners will want to buy them, and prospective bettors will want to wager races of them. The worse that the horses are, and the fewer starts that they make, the less attractive they are to owners and bettors. That is the fundamental problem for horse racing; it's not what day the stakes are being run, it's that the day-to-day product for bettors is getting worse and the owners are sick of being handed vet bills up the yin-yang for horses that only start a few times a year.

Until the racing industry comes to grips with these facts and actually goes about changing things for the better, it doesn't really matter a flying frog-____ whether the Met Mile is scheduled on Memorial Day or Belmont Stakes day.A lot of crappy products are sold everyday because of good marketing. The problem is racing has neither a good product nor good marketing.

[PhantomOnTour]

A lot of crappy products are sold everyday because of good marketing. The problem is racing has neither a good product nor good marketing.
See: Taco Bell

I hope the folks who came up with "Think outside the bun" and "Fourth Meal" and ofcourse, "Yo Quiero Taco Bell" got paid nicely.
They took shit and turned it into gold with nothing but slick and witty phraseology.

[burnsy]

You are missing a fundamental point; this is not about the Met Mile, it is about increasing the fan base.

If I remember correctly the nay sayers were against Monday night football and look at its impact today.

If you think cheap hot dogs and free admission is the answer to revitalizing horseracing then I will meet you at the cemetery because the burial is nearer than I thought.

I guess I miss the point because I don't see how moving one race does any of that. They are actually adding 5 races, the Met, Ogden Phipps, Acorn, Brooklyn and Jaipur. The casual fan does not even know what those races are, let alone whose running in them. I'll agree this is one monster day and horse players should really enjoy it. Plus, there will be "novice money" in the pool because of the Belmont....but the Belmont is a big day anyway, if there's a triple crown at stake, its a huge day and many people don't even know what the undercard is....half the time they didn't even show the Manhattan on TV. The handle will be increased on these races but its not some "Monday night football" deal at all. Its one freakin day...people will pay attention and move on like it is now anyway.....fan base will be unaffected. Wow, they run the Met on Belmont day....I love horse racing now.....yeah right! Tom is probably right....lower the "take out" of admission and parking, that would do more good....the competition doesn't charge to enter. Along your line of Monday night football the Met should probably be run the Saturday before Memorial Day instead of Monday. They would get more "bang" if they got televised on a summer series of Saturdays......a couple of big races every Saturday or every other Saturday. I don't think this move has a thing to do with getting more fans. Its another huge day but people will move on until the next huge day....Monday Night football is EVERY WEEK until the season ends.

[Tom]

I guess I miss the point because I don't see how moving one race does any of that. They are actually adding 5 races, the Met, Ogden Phipps, Acorn, Brooklyn and Jaipur. The casual fan does not even know what those races are, let alone whose running in them.

Thank you. The only thing that day that is going to draw in non-players is the Belmont itself. Those of us who do play, including those of us who make money off these uninformed figure makes, will play those races. But what I bet that day will not be bet on Memorial Day.

[Redboard]

A free umbrella is hard to beat.

What would I try?
Free parking and admission every day of the meet.
Free old-school back pocket programs.

These 4stardave bobbleheads were nice. I got Tom Durkin to sign mine, nice fellow. Gave it to my wife for her birthday, she loved it.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/SARATOGA-RACE-TRACK-RACE-HORSE-2013-BOBBLEHEAD-FOURSTARDAVE-NEW-/251438048215?pt=US_Solo_Sports_Fan_Shop&hash=item3a8ae023d7

[burnsy]

I guess I miss the point because I don't see how moving one race does any of that. They are actually adding 5 races, the Met, Ogden Phipps, Acorn, Brooklyn and Jaipur. The casual fan does not even know what those races are, let alone whose running in them.


.........on the other hand if you split these up a little and ran them on Saturdays....on tv....if it caught on just a little bit people would know what the Met Mile is.......the Ogden Phipps..whose he? What's a Jaipur? Plus the coverage itself has to be better, they spend about 3 hours talking about the "triple crown" races themselves. They'll run those 10 stakes races and spend 90% of the time on the Belmont. The people producing these shows are not horseplayers. Most of us could explain these other races better than they do it. There are stories behind every race. If every Saturday was an hour to 90 minutes of good races with good coverage maybe people would pay attention again. They watch crap like "reality shows", horse racing has to at least take a shot. Getting on FOX 1 could go a long way over making these "big days", you need CONSTANT coverage or people pay attention to something else. We will all love this card, no doubt, but the average Joe doesn't know the difference between the Met Mile and the Flower Bowl...........

[dilanesp]

A lot of crappy products are sold everyday because of good marketing. The problem is racing has neither a good product nor good marketing.

I think people overestimate good marketing. Taco Bell's product actually is "good" in one sense- it is convenient and easy to consume. It is also cheap.

Truly bad products can't be saved with marketing.

Horse racing has some marketable products, like the Derby. The handicap division isn't marketable anymore for the reasons already stated.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren
A lot of crappy products are sold everyday because of good marketing. The problem is racing has neither a good product nor good marketing.

Two things I use every single day:

My Snuggie
My Clapper

[thespaah]

Anyone know, off-hand, what the handle was on the 2013 Met Mile?
Not sure where you are going with this?
Last met Mile day there were over 11,000 in attendance. The on track handle was over 2.6 million with $16 million in all sources
Would not the absence of the Met Mile cut into those figures?
That is merely a question. Not a challenge or an argument.

[thespaah]

The truth is that holidays in the Summer are not great days for sports and entertainment. Talk to some MLB teams about how they feel about holiday games. Given the handle was a relatively strong $17 million on Memorial Day 2013, with those four Stakes, it's hard to understand how the move can possibly be criticized from a handle perspective.

I understand tradition and history, and surely everyone will not agree, but making a handle argument against the move will not hold up to scrutiny.
Ok, I'll bite. Have you any insight as to the potential increase in handle by contesting the Met Mile on Belmont Day as opposed to the event's traditional Memorial Day placement?
I would suspect the bean counters have spat out some numbers which NYRA management has seen and liked.

[dilanesp]

Not sure where you are going with this?
Last met Mile day there were over 11,000 in attendance. The on track handle was over 2.6 million with $16 million in all sources
Would not the absence of the Met Mile cut into those figures?
That is merely a question. Not a challenge or an argument.

11,000 is pretty good for Belmont in this era. My guess is that they will lose some attendance because of this move.

I've commented a lot about NYRA's management on this board. I won't rehash my opinions, and will simply make a factual claim-- they are far more concerned about handle than attendance (outside of Saratoga and maybe Belmont day). So what they are probably trying to do here is maximize the handle on one of their major races. If they only draw 6,000 on Memorial Day, they don't care.

[iceknight]

11,000 is pretty good for Belmont in this era. My guess is that they will lose some attendance because of this move.

I've commented a lot about NYRA's management on this board. I won't rehash my opinions, and will simply make a factual claim-- they are far more concerned about handle than attendance (outside of Saratoga and maybe Belmont day). So what they are probably trying to do here is maximize the handle on one of their major races. If they only draw 6,000 on Memorial Day, they don't care. Like any business should be, they are not running a charity or a socialist healthcare scheme.
Although, their attendance on Belmont day is likely to increase.

[rastajenk]

You really think so? I find it hard to imagine there's more than a handful of people in the whole New York metro area that will say to themselves, "I was going to pass on the big Belmont crowd, but now with the Met Mile in the mix, I can't pass on that."

[the little guy]

11,000 is pretty good for Belmont in this era. My guess is that they will lose some attendance because of this move.

I've commented a lot about NYRA's management on this board. I won't rehash my opinions, and will simply make a factual claim-- they are far more concerned about handle than attendance (outside of Saratoga and maybe Belmont day). So what they are probably trying to do here is maximize the handle on one of their major races. If they only draw 6,000 on Memorial Day, they don't care.


And this is a bad thing?

[dilanesp]

You really think so? I find it hard to imagine there's more than a handful of people in the whole New York metro area that will say to themselves, "I was going to pass on the big Belmont crowd, but now with the Met Mile in the mix, I can't pass on that."

Yeah, this is about handle, not attendance.

[cj]

Yeah, this is about handle, not attendance.

Pretty obvious Belmont Day admissions will go up, so they probably won't even lose on gate. I imagine it will be a win / win on both fronts.

[dilanesp]

And this is a bad thing?

I think it is, actually.

For one thing, you actually have to generate a boatload of handle to make a small profit. The track's percentage of the takeout, after taxes and purse money is taken out, is not that high. It's one thing if you could generate Hong Kong levels of handle (although, take note, they have huge attendance there anyway). But that's not possible in American racing.

So while it may sound impressive to handle $20 million on a racecard, the track is clearing a small percentage of that and paying all of its expenses, including track, plant, stable, and equipment maintenance, the racing office, and everyone who staffs the live racing operation, out of that money.

Whereas if you can average 15,000 fans a day, and sell programs, concessions, cocktails, tip sheets, racing publications, and souvenirs, you are looking at a boatload of money even if they don't bet all that much. Plus, the live racing product is how you get new fans interested in the game, so it has a compounding effect over time.

NYRA, of course, has Saratoga, which does that. (Plus the Belmont Stakes.) They have never told us exactly what the cross-subsidy is, instead swearing that the big handles are indicative that their Aqueduct and Belmont meetings are profitable. But the math makes it difficult to believe that they really can do more than make ends meet with the small crowds and having to maintain 3 very large facilities, if it weren't for the huge amount of money Saratoga generates.

My reading is that NYRA tries to generate as much money as possible from Saratoga, which means live attendance, and to focus solely on maximizing their handle at the other two meets (except for Belmont Stakes day), which keeps them afloat until Saratoga brings the money in. The problem is, we now have a whole generation of New Yorkers who have never been to the track, and that can't be good long term....

[dilanesp]

Pretty obvious Belmont Day admissions will go up, so they probably won't even lose on gate. I imagine it will be a win / win on both fronts.

I doubt there's any significant number of people who wouldn't attend the Belmont before but will do it if the Met Mile is on the card.

[Saratoga_Mike]

NYRA, of course, has Saratoga, which does that. (Plus the Belmont Stakes.) They have never told us exactly what the cross-subsidy is, instead swearing that the big handles are indicative that their Aqueduct and Belmont meetings are profitable. But the math makes it difficult to believe that they really can do more than make ends meet with the small crowds and having to maintain 3 very large facilities, if it weren't for the huge amount of money Saratoga generates.

My reading is that NYRA tries to generate as much money as possible from Saratoga, which means live attendance, and to focus solely on maximizing their handle at the other two meets (except for Belmont Stakes day), which keeps them afloat until Saratoga brings the money in. The problem is, we now have a whole generation of New Yorkers who have never been to the track, and that can't be good long term....

I believe your read on the profitability at Saratoga is incorrect. The AQU meet is very profitable, at least that's been the case historically.

But please post your ways to increase BEL live attendance to 15k/day. Actually if you can do that, you should head up marketing for a Fortune 50 company.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If anyone has the quote from Hayward a few yrs back on AQU's profitability, please post.

[dilanesp]

I believe your read on the profitability at Saratoga is incorrect. The AQU meet is very profitable, at least that's been the case historically.

But please post your ways to increase BEL live attendance to 15k/day. Actually if you can do that, you should head up marketing for a Fortune 50 company.

I have no idea how to get New York fans back. NYRA has neglected the live market for so long it will take a long time to recover.

But as I said, I think the technical term for NYRA's claims about the profitability of Aqueduct and Belmont is "lying". They are never going to admit that New York City's racing product is subsidized by a boutique meet in upstate New York, but there's no way the math works out. As I said, racetracks only get a couple of percentage points out of the handle, and that's not enough to cover the expenses of live racing, whereas a racetrack with good live attendance makes a lot of money. There's clearly a huge cross-subsidy from Saratoga to the other tracks.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I have no idea how to get New York fans back. NYRA has neglected the live market for so long it will take a long time to recover.

But as I said, I think the technical term for NYRA's claims about the profitability of Aqueduct and Belmont is "lying". They are never going to admit that New York City's racing product is subsidized by a boutique meet in upstate New York, but there's no way the math works out. As I said, racetracks only get a couple of percentage points out of the handle, and that's not enough to cover the expenses of live racing, whereas a racetrack with good live attendance makes a lot of money. There's clearly a huge cross-subsidy from Saratoga to the other tracks.

Intuitively what you're saying makes perfect sense, but I thought Hayward said a few yrs ago that AQU was very profitable.

[the little guy]

I have no idea how to get New York fans back. NYRA has neglected the live market for so long it will take a long time to recover.

But as I said, I think the technical term for NYRA's claims about the profitability of Aqueduct and Belmont is "lying". They are never going to admit that New York City's racing product is subsidized by a boutique meet in upstate New York, but there's no way the math works out. As I said, racetracks only get a couple of percentage points out of the handle, and that's not enough to cover the expenses of live racing, whereas a racetrack with good live attendance makes a lot of money. There's clearly a huge cross-subsidy from Saratoga to the other tracks.

You really have outdone yourself here ( as well as other posts in this thread ).

My suggestion to you would be to post much less going forward. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You accuse NYRA of lying and then make stuff up that is, in fact, completely inaccurate. That's pretty impressive.

Then again there is the comedy element

[Cratos]

I guess I miss the point because I don't see how moving one race does any of that. They are actually adding 5 races, the Met, Ogden Phipps, Acorn, Brooklyn and Jaipur. The casual fan does not even know what those races are, let alone whose running in them. I'll agree this is one monster day and horse players should really enjoy it. Plus, there will be "novice money" in the pool because of the Belmont....but the Belmont is a big day anyway, if there's a triple crown at stake, its a huge day and many people don't even know what the undercard is....half the time they didn't even show the Manhattan on TV. The handle will be increased on these races but its not some "Monday night football" deal at all. Its one freakin day...people will pay attention and move on like it is now anyway.....fan base will be unaffected. Wow, they run the Met on Belmont day....I love horse racing now.....yeah right! Tom is probably right....lower the "take out" of admission and parking, that would do more good....the competition doesn't charge to enter. Along your line of Monday night football the Met should probably be run the Saturday before Memorial Day instead of Monday. They would get more "bang" if they got televised on a summer series of Saturdays......a couple of big races every Saturday or every other Saturday. I don't think this move has a thing to do with getting more fans. Its another huge day but people will move on until the next huge day....Monday Night football is EVERY WEEK until the season ends.

You missed the point because as I see it NYRA is doing product positioning which is very common in marketing a product.

It is not about the Met Mile, but about Belmont Day. NYRA have two other big days during their meets and they are Travers Day and JCGC Day. By observation they are successful.

Belmont Day is somewhat hampered by what happens during the Triple Crown. Therefore if NYRA can have an added attraction to Belmont Day it will not be as dependent on what happens during the Triple Crown races.

Yes, if a horse comes to the Belmont after winning the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness it will be a bonus and that cannot be overlooked, but I believe NYRA have done their homework and they understand both their product and market; hence product positioning.

Incidentally, the NFL did the same when they launched Monday Night Football and they did it so well they launched Thursday Night Football. Also it had nothing to with football being every week; it was about how do you position it during the week.

Product positioning can be a risky strategy, but when it works it does wonders for the product. We will just have to wait see what happens over the next 3-5 years.

[thespaah]

Yeah, this is about handle, not attendance.
So you say.
Other than your opinion, have you any direct knowledge NYRA management's only priority is handle?

[VeryOldMan]

Pretty obvious Belmont Day admissions will go up, so they probably won't even lose on gate. I imagine it will be a win / win on both fronts.

Respect your views, but how many incremental fans would go to the Belmont because the Met Mile is being run that day? It's not going to be fewer, but how many feet are walking in the door? I've only been to the Belmont once, but I'm pretty sure it was just because of the particular horse that was running at the Belmont. Stands were packed.

Seems like this is susceptible to a business case - substitute the Met Mile for a lesser stakes race on the Belmont card and then put in a lesser stakes race on the Memorial Day card at Belmont. Would it attract a lot more vertical and horizontal wagering on Belmont day because of the higher visibility of that card? Maybe.

[Cratos]

Yeah, this is about handle, not attendance.

I know you understand that a racetrack's handle and attendance is interdependent.

[classhandicapper]

The major problem I see going forward is that no matter what it will be virtually impossible to prove the point. There are too many moving parts.

There's the weather, general economic conditions, the general appeal of the Belmont Stakes, alternate entertainment opportunities Belmont weekend and Memorial Day weekend, less tangible possible benefits of making Belmont day more like a BC day etc..

There's almost no way to isolate what the handle and attendance would have been on Memorial Day with the Met vs. without it and what the handle and attendance would have been on Belmont Stakes day with a listed stakes instead of the Met so you can net out the 2 weekends and key in on just the value of the move.

We will be able to see that the Met handles more on Belmont day than Memorial Day, but that's not the equation we need.

It might actually take 5 or more years to figure it all out.

[alydar]

I am a tradationalist. So when I first heard about this plan, I was not happy. However, the more I have read and learned about the plans for Belmont Stakes day the more I intrigued and excited I have become about it. It will be the second biggest day in racing all year, only surpassed by the Breeders Cup.

It could a great day. I am sure that the handle will be very strong. I think it will likely be very successful, regardless of the triple crown dramatics. Look forward to it.

[NTamm1215]

Respect your views, but how many incremental fans would go to the Belmont because the Met Mile is being run that day? It's not going to be fewer, but how many feet are walking in the door? I've only been to the Belmont once, but I'm pretty sure it was just because of the particular horse that was running at the Belmont. Stands were packed.

Seems like this is susceptible to a business case - substitute the Met Mile for a lesser stakes race on the Belmont card and then put in a lesser stakes race on the Memorial Day card at Belmont. Would it attract a lot more vertical and horizontal wagering on Belmont day because of the higher visibility of that card? Maybe.

That's the thing, maybe is not even close to reality. The answer to your question is yes, an emphatic yes. It will handle 2-3x more in vertical wagers than it did on Memorial Day.

[cj]

I doubt there's any significant number of people who wouldn't attend the Belmont before but will do it if the Met Mile is on the card.

You might be surprised. There have been plenty of years where the Belmont has been a stinker. Everybody likes to remember the Triple Crown bids and races like last year where the Derby and Preakness winners faced off, but not the ones where the field was crap. Adding races like the Met and enhancing the card will help ensure the day isn't dependent on the Belmont itself.

[iceknight]

I think it is, actually.
.How much are you willing to wager on that? Based on that I can give you some odds.

[dilanesp]

Intuitively what you're saying makes perfect sense, but I thought Hayward said a few yrs ago that AQU was very profitable.

Remember, NYRA's accounting statements can basically allocate the profit any way NYRA wants it to.

Mathematically, though, what I am saying has to be true.

[dilanesp]

You really have outdone yourself here ( as well as other posts in this thread
My suggestion to you would be to post much less going forward. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You accuse NYRA of lying and then make stuff up that is, in fact, completely inaccurate. That's pretty impressive.

Then again there is the comedy element

I think I have a better record of trustworthiness than NYRA. Remember, NYRA is actually lucky to still exist after its scandals.

But more importantly, what I am saying is apparent as a matter of math. What you are saying is we should ignore obvious mathematics, instead believing an organization which presided over the destruction of New York racing as a spectator sport and almost lost its privilege to run the New York tracks because of criminal conduct and fraud.

I think you should stop telling me that I can't tell the truth. There's no reason to trust NYRA or its defenders, and claiming Saratoga doesn't subsidize their other meets is an insult to even a person of minimal intelligence.

The only comedy here is that you would defend the indefensible.

[the little guy]

Remember, NYRA's accounting statements can basically allocate the profit any way NYRA wants it to.

Mathematically, though, what I am saying has to be true.

Since you make a lot of claims, why don't you tell us what rates NYRA charges to it's simulcast partners, and how those dollars are divided up, and how they are allocated. Then tell us what rates NYRA pays for the signals it accepts wagers on, and how the profits from those wagers are divided up and allocated. Then tell us what they handle is on the NYRA signal, both on-track and off, as well as what NYRA handles on other race tracks.

You should have the answers to these simple questions...or else you should admit that you have no idea whatsoever about what you are talking about.

[dilanesp]

I know you understand that a racetrack's handle and attendance is interdependent.

That's half-true.

They are, but the reason to move the Met Mile is to take advantage of already generated attendance to increase another race's handle.

[dilanesp]

Since you make a lot of claims, why don't you tell us what rates NYRA charges to it's simulcast partners, and how those dollars are divided up, and how they are allocated. Then tell us what rates NYRA pays for the signals it accepts wagers on, and how the profits from those wagers are divided up and allocated. Then tell us what they handle is on the NYRA signal, both on-track and off, as well as what NYRA handles on other race tracks.

You should have the answers to these simple questions...or else you should admit that you have no idea whatsoever about what you are talking about.

The thing is, those rates cannot exceed a couple of percentage points of handle. DUCY?

EDIT- lest that response be considered inadequate, the point is this- the carriage charges for NYRA's signals cannot amount to more money than the amount of revenues generated from carrying them. So the amounts other tracks pay have to, by definition, be some percentage of the couple of percentage points of takeout they receive. At best, if they assume NYRA races increase their attendance, NYRA could get a slight premium. But we are still talking about a couple of percentage points of handle. If other tracks paid any more they would go bankrupt.

[the little guy]

The thing is, those rates cannot exceed a couple of percentage points of handle. DUCY?

EDIT- lest that response be considered inadequate, the point is this- the carriage charges for NYRA's signals cannot amount to more money than the amount of revenues generated from carrying them. So the amounts other tracks pay have to, by definition, be some percentage of the couple of percentage points of takeout they receive. At best, if they assume NYRA races increase their attendance, NYRA could get a slight premium. But we are still talking about a couple of percentage points of handle. If other tracks paid any more they would go bankrupt.

I got it....you have no idea what you are talking about....which, of course, doesn't stop you from making a lot of inaccurate claims on the internet.

[dilanesp]

Actually, I know a lot about what I am talking about.

But here's a really simple way of putting all this.

NYRA is a non-profit.

Saratoga presumably makes a LOT of money. (If anyone claims it doesn't, consider that NYRA (1) releases attendance and handle figures that confirm it makes a lot of money, (2) moves big races onto the Saratoga calendar to make more money, and (3) has expanded the season. It obviously is a cash cow. Plus, if Saratoga doesn't make money, that means NYRA's even more incompetent than even I think they are.)

Now, where does that money go?

My explanation-- it obviously is used to subsidize Aqueduct and Belmont, meetings where expenses exceed revenues.

NYRA's explanation is... what, exactly?

Does it go into retained earnings? Is NYRA a cash cow? The state legislature would like to learn that if it is true.

Does it go into the pockets of NYRA executives? That would be, shall we say, rather problematic given the scandals of the recent past?

Does it go into philanthropic donations? I suppose it's possible, but if NYRA was engaging in some big donation campaign, it should be easy to find on google. (It appears NYRA's charitable activity consists of an occasional grant of $100,000 or less plus hosting donation drives targeting racing fans. Doesn't look like they are getting buildings named after them or anything like that.)

Is NYRA taking a profit and violating tax laws?

Look, at bottom, "Saratoga subsidizes Belmont and Aqueduct" is not only the only explanation that makes sense, it's the only one that doesn't have NYRA engaging in serious malfeasance. NYRA and its fans just don't like that story because it does involve admitting that one of the largest racetrack operators in the country can't make money marketing horse racing to America's largest metropolitan area.

[cj]

Actually, I know a lot about what I am talking about.

But here's a really simple way of putting all this.

NYRA is a non-profit.

Saratoga presumably makes a LOT of money. (If anyone claims it doesn't, consider that NYRA (1) releases attendance and handle figures that confirm it makes a lot of money, (2) moves big races onto the Saratoga calendar to make more money, and (3) has expanded the season. It obviously is a cash cow. Plus, if Saratoga doesn't make money, that means NYRA's even more incompetent than even I think they are.)

Now, where does that money go?

My explanation-- it obviously is used to subsidize Aqueduct and Belmont, meetings where expenses exceed revenues.

NYRA's explanation is... what, exactly?

Does it go into retained earnings? Is NYRA a cash cow? The state legislature would like to learn that if it is true.

Does it go into the pockets of NYRA executives? That would be, shall we say, rather problematic given the scandals of the recent past?

Does it go into philanthropic donations? I suppose it's possible, but if NYRA was engaging in some big donation campaign, it should be easy to find on google. (It appears NYRA's charitable activity consists of an occasional grant of $100,000 or less plus hosting donation drives targeting racing fans. Doesn't look like they are getting buildings named after them or anything like that.)

Is NYRA taking a profit and violating tax laws?

Look, at bottom, "Saratoga subsidizes Belmont and Aqueduct" is not only the only explanation that makes sense, it's the only one that doesn't have NYRA engaging in serious malfeasance. NYRA and its fans just don't like that story because it does involve admitting that one of the largest racetrack operators in the country can't make money marketing horse racing to America's largest metropolitan area.

Seriously, this is probably the most clueless post ever made here, and that is saying something.

[classhandicapper]

I don't have the slightest idea what's going on with NYRA's finances.

I'll just note that there are arcane accounting rules that differentiate between operating expenses vs. money spent on capital expenditures and also earnings vs. free cash flow.

Without a detailed set of financial statements, it's close to impossible for an outsider to know what's going on even if they are very familiar with accounting.

[speed]

[QUOTE=dilanesp]The thing is, those rates cannot exceed a couple of percentage points of handle. DUCY?

Give up while you are behind.

[Cholly]

You missed the point because as I see it NYRA is doing product positioning which is very common in marketing a product.

It is not about the Met Mile, but about Belmont Day. NYRA have two other big days during their meets and they are Travers Day and JCGC Day. By observation they are successful.

Belmont Day is somewhat hampered by what happens during the Triple Crown. Therefore if NYRA can have an added attraction to Belmont Day it will not be as dependent on what happens during the Triple Crown races.

Yes, if a horse comes to the Belmont after winning the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness it will be a bonus and that cannot be overlooked, but I believe NYRA have done their homework and they understand both their product and market; hence product positioning.

Incidentally, the NFL did the same when they launched Monday Night Football and they did it so well they launched Thursday Night Football. Also it had nothing to with football being every week; it was about how do you position it during the week.

Product positioning can be a risky strategy, but when it works it does wonders for the product. We will just have to wait see what happens over the next 3-5 years.
You’ve made some valid points, but I think you and others are overlooking the main driver here: This is a business that NYRA management has been charged with getting ready to be sold in the next 24 months.

I happen to think this rebranding of Belmont Day is a good long-term business decision; but whether it is or not is irrelevant. What matters to NYRA is that this and next year’s edition create a lot of buzz and publicity that hit the radar screen of potential buyers in a way that suggest this asset has upside. When valuing a business, “perceived upside” can help override a currently sketchy financial statement. Increasing one or two days' attendance and betting is of secondary importance.

Seriously, if you were charged with making one short-term, big-bang change that would quickly increase the market value of this asset, what would you do? This tack is a very “text-book” approach: Throw huge parties that attract media attention and get a lot of handsome well dressed swells loitering around. With eight million bucks getting doled out, this party stands a good chance of accomplishing those two goals--there’s nothing that media-types and swells like doing better than hanging out around money.

[OTM Al]

Seriously, this is probably the most clueless post ever made here, and that is saying something.

He doesn't even know what a not-for-profit corporation is....stupendous

[thaskalos]

You missed the point because as I see it NYRA is doing product positioning which is very common in marketing a product.

It is not about the Met Mile, but about Belmont Day. NYRA have two other big days during their meets and they are Travers Day and JCGC Day. By observation they are successful.

Belmont Day is somewhat hampered by what happens during the Triple Crown. Therefore if NYRA can have an added attraction to Belmont Day it will not be as dependent on what happens during the Triple Crown races.

Yes, if a horse comes to the Belmont after winning the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness it will be a bonus and that cannot be overlooked, but I believe NYRA have done their homework and they understand both their product and market; hence product positioning.

Incidentally, the NFL did the same when they launched Monday Night Football and they did it so well they launched Thursday Night Football. Also it had nothing to with football being every week; it was about how do you position it during the week.

Product positioning can be a risky strategy, but when it works it does wonders for the product. We will just have to wait see what happens over the next 3-5 years.
You are now backtracking from your previous comment that the addition of the Met Mile would stimulate the interest of new racing fans...and would result in a bigger attendance on Belmont day.

I am with Burnsy and Tom on this one. Belmont Day was already enhanced enough with the addition of the other, less prestigious stakes; it did not need to have the Met Mile added into the mix.

This "product positioning" that you mention will not be so successful in our game, I am afraid...when it comes to introducing new fans to the game -- mainly because the new fans are not likely to even know that the product has been newly "positioned" in the first place.

[Al Gobbi]

By running the Met Mile on Belmont Day, they can also get a couple of three year olds to run in that race even if it means they end up bypassing the Belmont or the Woody Stephens as a result. The purse, mile distance and weight breaks would be a plus for those who don't want to run 12 furlongs.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Remember, NYRA's accounting statements can basically allocate the profit any way NYRA wants it to.

Mathematically, though, what I am saying has to be true.

1) KPMG audits NYRA's financial statements. I can assure you audited financials do not allow for highly subjective cost allocations, as you suggest.

2) For 2011 and 2012 (in total), cap ex was $5.4 mm and $1.5 mm for Saratoga and AQU, respectively. The 2013 number is not yet available.

3) In 2012, the highly profitable import handle was $1.3 mm/day at AQU and roughly $970k/day at Saratoga.

4) Saratoga purses are very rich. I will need to do some research into this matter (as a portion of handle and the potential impact on profitability).

[PaceAdvantage]

Doesn't seem to be going dilanesp's way at the moment...

[Cratos]

You are now backtracking from your previous comment that the addition of the Met Mile would stimulate the interest of new racing fans...and would result in a bigger attendance on Belmont day.

I am with Burnsy and Tom on this one. Belmont Day was already enhanced enough with the addition of the other, less prestigious stakes; it did not need to have the Met Mile added into the mix.

This "product positioning" that you mention will not be so successful in our game, I am afraid...when it comes to introducing new fans to the game -- mainly because the new fans are not likely to even know that the product has been newly "positioned" in the first place.

I am not backtracking off of anything. What I did was make an insightful elaboration to expand my position into the marketing impact of my earlier assertion.

However I am glad that NYRA don't have you as it's marketing director and what facts do you have to say that "Belmont Day was already enhanced enough with addition of the other less prestigious stakes."

Please understand product positioning before you attempt to argue the point.

[Saratoga_Mike]

A board first - someone describing their own elaboration as "insightful." To understand marketing, one first has to understanding human behavior. On this front, I'll give the nod to Thask even if I may disagree with him on a specific matter or two.

[iceknight]

1) KPMG audits NYRA's financial statements. I can assure you audited financials do not allow for highly subjective cost allocations, as you suggest.
Very true! and thanks for adding those other numbers.
NYRA website has the financial statements publicly available. The only number I wasnt able to locate at first glance was the Met Mile day handle as a separate item.

http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/information/financial-statements/


part of URL could change as the meet switches to Belmont and Saratoga but I believe the information is for whole nyra

[NTamm1215]

You are now backtracking from your previous comment that the addition of the Met Mile would stimulate the interest of new racing fans...and would result in a bigger attendance on Belmont day.

I am with Burnsy and Tom on this one. Belmont Day was already enhanced enough with the addition of the other, less prestigious stakes; it did not need to have the Met Mile added into the mix.

This "product positioning" that you mention will not be so successful in our game, I am afraid...when it comes to introducing new fans to the game -- mainly because the new fans are not likely to even know that the product has been newly "positioned" in the first place.

So it's better to run a marquee race on a day with 12,000 people at the racetrack, with most "new fans" there to spend a holiday afternoon, than on an afternoon with no fewer than 40k who are in attendance specifically because of a race. Got it.

[dilanesp]

1) KPMG audits NYRA's financial statements. I can assure you audited financials do not allow for highly subjective cost allocations, as you suggest.

2) For 2011 and 2012 (in total), cap ex was $5.4 mm and $1.5 mm for Saratoga and AQU, respectively. The 2013 number is not yet available.

3) In 2012, the highly profitable import handle was $1.3 mm/day at AQU and roughly $970k/day at Saratoga.

4) Saratoga purses are very rich. I will need to do some research into this matter (as a portion of handle and the potential impact on profitability).

1. Generally accepted accounting principles do not take any position on cost allocations of the sort we are talking about here. So the auditors would not care so long as costs are allocated correctly from year to year on an accrual basis.

They WOULD care if Aqueduct, Belmont, and Saratoga were incorporated as separate enterprises. They might also care if specifically attributable expenses, such as the cost of track maintenance, were moved around (because then they could not sign off on a financial statement that misrepresented the source of expenses). But as to overhead allocation and allocation of fixed costs not attributable to a particular racetrack (which would include, for instance, all of NYRA's full time employees), they wouldn't care at all.

2 and 3 aren't really relevant.

4. According to their accountants, NYRA generated about $93 million in handle and signal fees (off of $2.4 billion of total betting handle), after purses are subtracted, in 2012. (Bear in mind the set-aside for purses is part of the state takeout-- NYRA, like all racetrack operators in the United States, has limited freedom to change purse payouts and thus it is not properly treated as part of the revenue of the enterprise.)

It cost $156 million to operate the facilities and pay NYRA's employees. Thus, without attendance and without even considering capital costs, NYRA's handle would generate a $67 million operating loss in 2012 if NYRA had to rely on handle and carriage fees alone to support its business. This is why, despite what all of NYRA's defenders say, getting butts in the seats is really important. You try to rely on handle, you lose $67 million a year!

Now, NYRA actually lost less than that, and it looks like its racing-related revenues are about $15 million a year. The statement doesn't break that out, but I would bet that at least 3/4's of that came from Saratoga, given the disparities in attendance. In other words, Saratoga is probably subsidizing the other meets to the tune of $9 million.

That said, if NYRA is really losing $64 million per year (as the statements state) before the subsidies it receives, this discussion is academic. That's unsustainable.

[dilanesp]

He doesn't even know what a not-for-profit corporation is....stupendous

In NYRA's case, based on the financials we were provided, it apparently means a business which brings in over $60 million less revenue than it costs to operate.

These guys seriously need to be put out of business.

[westny]

Intuitively what you're saying makes perfect sense, but I thought Hayward said a few yrs ago that AQU was very profitable.



He did. I can't find that article. but, Violette of NYH's Assoc said what Hayward did when asked about winter racing at Aqueduct:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/violette-no-winter-racing-would-cripple-ny-thoroughbred-industry/

This quote BEFORE Resorts opened.


"Aqueduct is a money maker for the New York Racing Association. The presence of Resorts World has greatly reduced racing’s physical footprint in the Aqueduct grandstand, in turn greatly reducing NYRA’s overhead. The racing, while it is clearly not our “A Game,” still generates significant handle. Revenue is up, the profit margin has grown – winter racing has a positive impact on NYRA’s bottom line. When the doors finally open to the long-awaited Longshots simulcasting facility at Aqueduct, the balance sheets will look even better.

"Winter racing also supports purses throughout the year. The revenue from the handle at Aqueduct outpaces the level of purses distributed in the winter, allowing the NYRA purse fund to grow, and enabling NYRA to offer bigger purses during the Belmont spring and fall meets, and at Saratoga. This attracts better horses and produces high-quality racing. which in turn generates higher handle. To jeopardize this cycle would be simply bad business.

There is no question that our energies and our resources must be used to improve both the racing product and the racing experience. A better product on a day-to-day basis benefits the entire industry. And exploring all options to improve the safety of the horses and riders must always be a priority.

But efforts must be directed at making improvements not only at Saratoga in August, but at Aqueduct in January as well.

.

[dilanesp]

Something else.

Saratoga reported total attendance of 900,000 in 2012.

NYRA reported TOTAL racing-related revenue of $15 million for the entire YEAR.

That number would be low for Saratoga alone; it would mean they were making $16 or so for each patron, despite charging $5 or $10 for admission, selling reserved seats, food, souvenirs, parking, etc. Add the Belmont Stakes and the rest of the year and it makes no sense at all.

Assuming Saratoga's total attendance really is 900,000 for the meeting, I have to think they generate at least $18 million ($20 average spend per patron) just from the Saratoga meeting. They probably make another few million on the Belmont Stakes as well (ticket prices are higher).

Their racing revenues, as reported, seem like they are quite low.

[dilanesp]

He did. I can't find that article. but, Violette of NYH's Assoc said what Hayward did when asked about winter racing at Aqueduct:

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/violette-no-winter-racing-would-cripple-ny-thoroughbred-industry/

This quote BEFORE Resorts opened.


"Aqueduct is a money maker for the New York Racing Association. The presence of Resorts World has greatly reduced racing’s physical footprint in the Aqueduct grandstand, in turn greatly reducing NYRA’s overhead. The racing, while it is clearly not our “A Game,” still generates significant handle. Revenue is up, the profit margin has grown – winter racing has a positive impact on NYRA’s bottom line. When the doors finally open to the long-awaited Longshots simulcasting facility at Aqueduct, the balance sheets will look even better.

"Winter racing also supports purses throughout the year. The revenue from the handle at Aqueduct outpaces the level of purses distributed in the winter, allowing the NYRA purse fund to grow, and enabling NYRA to offer bigger purses during the Belmont spring and fall meets, and at Saratoga. This attracts better horses and produces high-quality racing. which in turn generates higher handle. To jeopardize this cycle would be simply bad business.

There is no question that our energies and our resources must be used to improve both the racing product and the racing experience. A better product on a day-to-day basis benefits the entire industry. And exploring all options to improve the safety of the horses and riders must always be a priority.

But efforts must be directed at making improvements not only at Saratoga in August, but at Aqueduct in January as well.

.

Well, NYRA"s financial statements do not break out Aqueduct's profitability. But they do indicate that NYRA's handle and carriage fees don't come near to covering operating expenses (they only cover about 60 percent of them). It's very hard to believe that a race meeting that basically relies on handle alone, with almost no attendance and very little live gate revenue (at low ticket prices), in fact makes a profit given what the financial statements show.

[cj]

Something else.

Saratoga reported total attendance of 900,000 in 2012.

NYRA reported TOTAL racing-related revenue of $15 million for the entire YEAR.

That number would be low for Saratoga alone; it would mean they were making $16 or so for each patron, despite charging $5 or $10 for admission, selling reserved seats, food, souvenirs, parking, etc. Add the Belmont Stakes and the rest of the year and it makes no sense at all.

Assuming Saratoga's total attendance really is 900,000 for the meeting, I have to think they generate at least $18 million ($20 average spend per patron) just from the Saratoga meeting. They probably make another few million on the Belmont Stakes as well (ticket prices are higher).

Their racing revenues, as reported, seem like they are quite low.
https://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/vp/image/1365/46/1365463008411.jpg

[burnsy]

So it's better to run a marquee race on a day with 12,000 people at the racetrack, with most "new fans" there to spend a holiday afternoon, than on an afternoon with no fewer than 40k who are in attendance specifically because of a race. Got it.

Actually my point is that all of us know what the Met mile is........Like Tom and Thaskalos agree with me, 90% of the people that just pay attention to the Triple Crown could care less what races they add...they are going or playing because its Belmont Day...there will be 40,000 + and TV cameras whether any thing changed or not. If there's a Triple Crown attempt these casual people could care even less and historically there are double in attendance. The "new" races could be claimers, most of them would not know the difference any way and the handle will still be higher just because of the attention. None of these people are going to walk away as "converts" because the card had better races. All they give a damn about is that its Belmont Day. I mean, I don't hate the idea, its great for us as I stated. But claiming that this is some ground breaking innovation to attract fan base...is a farce IMO. That's what they said about the BC and I think it did the opposite in some ways. People used to follow the fall championship racing...now its just relegated to preps for ONE day. I think moving the Met to the Saturday before Memorial Day would do more good....casual fans are doing 10 million things on the actual holiday...horse racing is at the bottom of the list. If there was a sustained series of Saturdays with big races being televised during the summer months...and it caught on......people would begin to know all these races. Plus, the way it has been done previously, there's no denying that the coverage of the under card is usually shit. People other than us (horseplayers), don't follow this game regularly any more...that's a problem. They wait until the few "big days" racing has. In between those days....most of them could care less. The sport needs more of a "regular, fan following" and less of a "big day, Johnny come lately" following. When the media refuses to cover you, its because they know there will be no skin off their backs....that simple, and that's the way this ship has been sailing for years. The Breeders Cup promised the same thing.....30 years ago and in those 30 years its all been "down hill" for horse racing popularity. How about getting this thing on a regular schedule and bringing folks in? Like every other pro sport already does?

[Saratoga_Mike]

1. Generally accepted accounting principles do not take any position on cost allocations of the sort we are talking about here. So the auditors would not care so long as costs are allocated correctly from year to year on an accrual basis.

They WOULD care if Aqueduct, Belmont, and Saratoga were incorporated as separate enterprises. They might also care if specifically attributable expenses, such as the cost of track maintenance, were moved around (because then they could not sign off on a financial statement that misrepresented the source of expenses). But as to overhead allocation and allocation of fixed costs not attributable to a particular racetrack (which would include, for instance, all of NYRA's full time employees), they wouldn't care at all.

2 and 3 aren't really relevant.

4. According to their accountants, NYRA generated about $93 million in handle and signal fees (off of $2.4 billion of total betting handle), after purses are subtracted, in 2012. (Bear in mind the set-aside for purses is part of the state takeout-- NYRA, like all racetrack operators in the United States, has limited freedom to change purse payouts and thus it is not properly treated as part of the revenue of the enterprise.)

It cost $156 million to operate the facilities and pay NYRA's employees. Thus, without attendance and without even considering capital costs, NYRA's handle would generate a $67 million operating loss in 2012 if NYRA had to rely on handle and carriage fees alone to support its business. This is why, despite what all of NYRA's defenders say, getting butts in the seats is really important. You try to rely on handle, you lose $67 million a year!

Now, NYRA actually lost less than that, and it looks like its racing-related revenues are about $15 million a year. The statement doesn't break that out, but I would bet that at least 3/4's of that came from Saratoga, given the disparities in attendance. In other words, Saratoga is probably subsidizing the other meets to the tune of $9 million.

That said, if NYRA is really losing $64 million per year (as the statements state) before the subsidies it receives, this discussion is academic. That's unsustainable.

1) Stick to the law - you don't know much about accounting.

2) See 1 - you don't know much about return on invested capital or generating free cash flow either

3) Yeah, the import signal revenue isn't relevant to evaluating profitability - again, stick to the law - you don't know much about numbers.

[classhandicapper]

Well, if Aqueduct is a money maker (before or after subsidies?) because the overhead is much lower with Resorts there, but NYRA is losing money before casino subsidies overall, the rest of the equation gets a lot easier to figure out.

I'll add again, there are often differences between what GAAP profits will suggest and what free cash flow after depreciation and cap ex will suggest.

IMO, without detailed internal financials, I don't think any outsider can figure out what's really going on.

[dilanesp]

Well, if Aqueduct is a money maker (before or after subsidies?) because the overhead is much lower with Resorts there, but NYRA is losing money before casino subsidies overall, the rest of the equation gets a lot easier to figure out.

I'll add again, there are often differences between what GAAP profits will suggest and what free cash flow after depreciation and cap ex will suggest.

IMO, without detailed internal financials, I don't think any outsider can figure out what's really going on.

Absent a legal mandate to do so, I doubt NYRA would ever release an accurate, audited statement which treats the three tracks as separate enterprises.

For one thing, it could create political pressure to downsize portions of the business with particularly high losses.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Absent a legal mandate to do so, I doubt NYRA would ever release an accurate, audited statement which treats the three tracks as separate enterprises.

For one thing, it could create political pressure to downsize portions of the business with particularly high losses.

Here's what bothers me about this whole discussion: you don't have all the information (I don't either), yet you're willing to (effectively) call past statements by NYRA management dishonest.

Again, consider the following:
1) Higher purses at Saratoga
2) Lower (high margin) import handle at Saratoga
3) Higher cap ex at Saratoga (in 2011/2012--I don't know about 2013), reducing available cash flow
4) Higher employee training costs at Saratoga
5) Radically higher travel/lodging/food costs (I assume NYRA pays for at least 100 NYC/Long Island-based employees to move to Saratoga each yr)
6) Higher marketing budget

As I said before, intuitively your argument makes sense, but we don't have all the facts - therefore, we shouldn't accuse past management (Hayward's statement) of dishonesty.

[westny]

Here's what bothers me about this whole discussion: you don't have all the information (I don't either), yet you're willing to (effectively) call past statements by NYRA management dishonest.

Again, consider the following:
1) Higher purses at Saratoga
2) Lower (high margin) import handle at Saratoga
3) Higher cap ex at Saratoga (in 2011/2012--I don't know about 2013), reducing available cash flow
4) Higher employee training costs at Saratoga
5) Radically higher travel/lodging/food costs (I assume NYRA pays for at least 100 NYC/Long Island-based employees to move to Saratoga each yr)
6) Higher marketing budget

As I said before, intuitively your argument makes sense, but we don't have all the facts - therefore, we shouldn't accuse past management (Hayward's statement) of dishonesty.

Any "person" can figure Aqu is profitable by just looking at the daily handle...last weedend...8.5 ISW and 900k+ on track...that is for AQU with very low overhead in the "dead" of winter. This year, the weekend racing is better and so is the handle. During the week, Aqu handle is 5M+-.

NYRA is one of the FEW tracks that post attendance and handle.. EVERY RACING DAY. But of course, according to the blatently anti-nyra posters.. :sleeping: :sleeping: Hayward and all NYRA associated racing ppl...LIE...including Violette

[classhandicapper]

Here's what bothers me about this whole discussion: you don't have all the information (I don't either), yet you're willing to (effectively) call past statements by NYRA management dishonest.

Again, consider the following:
1) Higher purses at Saratoga
2) Lower (high margin) import handle at Saratoga
3) Higher cap ex at Saratoga (in 2011/2012--I don't know about 2013), reducing available cash flow
4) Higher employee training costs at Saratoga
5) Radically higher travel/lodging/food costs (I assume NYRA pays for at least 100 NYC/Long Island-based employees to move to Saratoga each yr)
6) Higher marketing budget

As I said before, intuitively your argument makes sense, but we don't have all the facts - therefore, we shouldn't accuse past management (Hayward's statement) of dishonesty.

That all makes perfect sense to me, but it begs another question.

If Saratoga is not a huge financial success, why do they keep expanding it?

I'm sure there must be a logical reason.

If I were assume Saratoga is a financial success or there is at least a very logical economic reason to have expanded it, and Aqueduct is a financial success, we may have narrowed things down further. ;)

[rastajenk]

I forget what this thread is about. :)

[speed]

I forget what this thread is about. :)
Please don't remind me.

[the little guy]

I forget what this thread is about. :)


Basically it's about some guy in CA that took a wrong turn on his way to Disneyland.

[Saratoga_Mike]

That all makes perfect sense to me, but it begs another question.

If Saratoga is not a huge financial success, why do they keep expanding it?

I'm sure there must be a logical reason.

If I were assume Saratoga is a financial success or there is at least a very logical economic reason to have expanded it, and Aqueduct is a financial success, we may have narrowed things down further. ;)

I just think there's a chance that AQU makes money, and it's possible Saratoga is less profitable than we might assume. I'm speculating of course.

[iceknight]

Basically it's about some guy in CA that took a wrong turn on his way to Disneyland. Was he going to the union's labor contract talks?

[dilanesp]

That all makes perfect sense to me, but it begs another question.

If Saratoga is not a huge financial success, why do they keep expanding it?

I'm sure there must be a logical reason.

If I were assume Saratoga is a financial success or there is at least a very logical economic reason to have expanded it, and Aqueduct is a financial success, we may have narrowed things down further. ;)

Of course Saratoga is a comparative financial success.

I haven't had time to re-crunch all the numbers in this thread, but it's crazy to argue that NYRA would move additional racing TO Saratoga if that wasn't more profitable. Especially considering the last week of Saratoga draws the LOWEST attendance. Obviously, NYRA thinks Saratoga is more profitable even in a bad week than Belmont is in a normal week.

So obviously, numbers are manipulated to say otherwise.

[RXB]

Of course Saratoga is a comparative financial success.

I haven't had time to re-crunch all the numbers in this thread, but it's crazy to argue that NYRA would move additional racing TO Saratoga if that wasn't more profitable. Especially considering the last week of Saratoga draws the LOWEST attendance. Obviously, NYRA thinks Saratoga is more profitable even in a bad week than Belmont is in a normal week.


That doesn't prove that Saratoga is a profitable meet. Profitable is based on total revenues > total costs. Operating a week at Saratoga rather than a week at Belmont is based on comparative marginal revenues & costs, not necessarily on overall profitability.

[westny]

That doesn't prove that Saratoga is a profitable meet. Profitable is based on total revenues > total costs. Operating a week at Saratoga rather than a week at Belmont is based on comparative marginal revenues & costs, not necessarily on overall profitability.

Politics..politics...politics is one reason nyra keeps extending the Saratoga meet...even though AQU revenues underwrite the purses there.

NYRA has political allies in Saratoga.. local businesses make $$$$$ for the year with the Saratoga meet. One reason nyra keeps extending Saratoga. Quid pro quo for nyra with local politicos in Saratoga Cty to keep "anti-racing factions" out of nyra's business .


NYRA is the quintessential "whipping boy" for ny politicos...Cuomo would like to close the tracks and just gamble. Former gov, Spitzer used nyra for a "fake' witch hunt for his political power-trip

Belmont is becoming the "aqu of nyra" After Belmont stakes over...all aim for Saratoga. Belmont Fall is over as a big meet. All focus on Breeders Cup. Save horses for that meet.

Saratoga is an expensive meet for NYRA to run. Probably don't make as much profit as you's think vis a vis the daily handle. Aquduct is likely the money maker even more so with Resorts sharing the premises and boosting the purses.

[Cratos]

Politics..politics...politics is one reason nyra keeps extending the Saratoga meet...even though AQU revenues underwrite the purses there.

NYRA has political allies in Saratoga.. local businesses make $$$$$ for the year with the Saratoga meet. One reason nyra keeps extending Saratoga. Quid pro quo for nyra with local politicos in Saratoga Cty to keep "anti-racing factions" out of nyra's business .


NYRA is the quintessential "whipping boy" for ny politicos...Cuomo would like to close the tracks and just gamble. Former gov, Spitzer used nyra for a "fake' witch hunt for his political power-trip

Belmont is becoming the "aqu of nyra" After Belmont stakes over...all aim for Saratoga. Belmont Fall is over as a big meet. All focus on Breeders Cup. Save horses for that meet.

Saratoga is an expensive meet for NYRA to run. Probably don't make as much profit as you's think vis a vis the daily handle. Aquduct is likely the money maker even more so with Resorts sharing the premises and boosting the purses.

Question: Is the Blood-Horse wrong when they repoti that NYRA does about 60% of the NA handle? If so, then :the other 70+ NA tracks are in deep yogurt

[cj]

Question: Is the Blood-Horse wrong when they repoti that NYRA does about 60% of the NA handle? If so, then :the other 70+ NA tracks are in deep yogurt

That can't be right. Do you have a link?

[RXB]

NYRA handled about $2.2 billion last year. Total handle in U.S. was about $10.9 billion, so NYRA is about 20% of the total, not 60%.

[Cratos]

[QUOTE=RXB]NYRA handled about $2.2 billion last year. Total handle in U.S. was about $10.9 billion, so NYRA is about 20% of the total, not 60% ,

I stand corrected about the per cent, but in reviewing the 2012 statistics (the ones available to me shows NA = $11.8B and NYRA = $2.5B for about 21%.)

Given that, the remaining 80% is being shared by 70+ tracks which again asks the question what is NYRA doing wrong if they can capture 1/5 of each wagering dollar.

Please don't reply with what they can do better.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Jesus.If you don't bring an accounting sheet to this thread I guess you're the dumb MF'er.

This is a 1 year experimental thing.Let's see how it goes.If not it can be changed back.

Some of you act like your soul was being removed.....

[PhantomOnTour]

Jesus.If you don't bring an accounting sheet to this thread I guess you're the dumb MF'er.

This is a 1 year experimental thing.Let's see how it goes.If not it can be changed back.

Some of you act like your soul was being removed.....
:lol: count me in :lol:
hell, I just like to bet the place

[cj]

[QUOTE=RXB]NYRA handled about $2.2 billion last year. Total handle in U.S. was about $10.9 billion, so NYRA is about 20% of the total, not 60% ,

I stand corrected about the per cent, but in reviewing the 2012 statistics (the ones available to me shows NA = $11.8B and NYRA = $2.5B for about 21%.)

Given that, the remaining 80% is being shared by 70+ tracks which again asks the question what is NYRA doing wrong if they can capture 1/5 of each wagering dollar.

Please don't reply with what they can do better.

Well, for one, you lump NYRA as one entity, but isolate all the others as individual tracks. Of course, it doesn't work that way. How does SoCal compare, as one example? (SA, DMR, BHP, FPX)

[CincyHorseplayer]

:lol: count me in :lol:
hell, I just like to bet the place

That's funny POT!I keep seeing this thread and wondering why there are such a bunch of hardasses.I love the NY circuit.It's a single f-in year!It is not set in stone.Lets see see how it goes before we start getting into accounting 101 plus steroids.Pretty simple.

[Cratos]

[QUOTE=Cratos]

Well, for one, you lump NYRA as one entity, but isolate all the others as individual tracks. Of course, it doesn't work that way. How does SoCal compare, as one example? (SA, DMR, BHP, FPX)

I realize that, but this thread took an off shoot from whether moving the Met Mile from Memorial Day to Belmont Day as being good or bad; I believe it is a good move.

However there appear to be posters who have an accounting background believes there is something else going on that prompted the move.

I am not an accountant and my knowledge is academic not empirical.

Therefore if NYRA which is the business entity made the move for some sinister reasons other than product positioning as I believe, I would like to know.

Incidentally, you can treat NYRA as a single entity because that is how the financials were reported. You can normalize the data later anyway you want too; even down to the individual bettor.

[CincyHorseplayer]

[QUOTE=cj]

I realize that, but this thread took an off shoot from whether moving the Met Mile from Memorial Day to Belmont Day as being good or bad; I believe it is a good move.

However there appear to be posters who have an accounting background believes there is something else going on that prompted the move.

I am not an accountant and my knowledge is academic not empirical.

Therefore if NYRA which is the business entity made the move for some sinister reasons other than product positioning as I believe, I would like to know.

Incidentally, you can treat NYRA as a single entity because that is how the financials were reported. You can normalize the data later anyway you want too; even down to the individual bettor.

I know my non analytical point is being ignored but it is a 1 season experiment right now.Wait and see for 1 day.1 day.Doesn't seem like quite a harbinger of doom.1 day............

[Cratos]

[QUOTE=Cratos]

I know my non analytical point is being ignored but it is a 1 season experiment right now.Wait and see for 1 day.1 day.Doesn't seem like quite a harbinger of doom.1 day............

I am in your boat; I agree with you

[classhandicapper]

[QUOTE=cj]

Therefore if NYRA which is the business entity made the move for some sinister reasons other than product positioning as I believe, I would like to know.



NYRA definitely thinks the move makes strategic and economic sense.

My only point has been it won't as easy to determine the result as just looking at the handle on the Met. It could take a few years to sort through all the numbers.

The discussion on AQU/BEL/SAR was a kind of detour that probably belongs in a different thread - or nowhere at all since no one I know has a detailed set of internal financials.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Question: Is the Blood-Horse wrong when they repoti that NYRA does about 60% of the NA handle? If so, then :the other 70+ NA tracks are in deep yogurt

Yes, not sure where they're getting their numbers

[Al Gobbi]

Full stakes schedule now out:

http://www.drf.com/news/2014-belmont-park-spring-stakes-schedule

[VeryOldMan]

I know my non analytical point is being ignored but it is a 1 season experiment right now.Wait and see for 1 day.1 day.Doesn't seem like quite a harbinger of doom.1 day............
If you substitute "1 year" for "1 day" (which you may have meant, in essence - 1 day of the entire racing year?), I'm on board. The handle results will reveal themselves. It's not exactly a make-or-break decision for NYRA or for this sport more generally.

[classhandicapper]

Here are the numbers for the first year without the Met Mile. So the question becomes does having the Met Mile on Belmont Stakes day improve the attendance and handle by enough to make up the difference. Of course this year is a bit of an aberration because of the Triple Crown bid and other major races moved to that day that will also all impact attendance and handle positively. But this is the kind of target they are looking at when they move very major races like the Met.


From DRF:

Memorial Day business slides

The absence of the Met Mile from the card likely was the major reason business was down substantially on Monday’s Memorial Day card when compared with a year ago. Attendance Monday, on a gorgeous afternoon, was 6,946, down 40 percent from last year’s crowd of 11,664.

Ontrack handle on Monday’s 10-race card was $1,837,245, down 31.4 percent from last year’s ontrack handle of $2,678,317. There were 11 races run in 2013.

All-sources handle Monday was $9,913,636, a reduction of $6.278 million, or 38 percent, from last year’s total handle of $16,191,654.

[burnsy]

Here are the numbers for the first year without the Met Mile. So the question becomes does having the Met Mile on Belmont Stakes day improve the attendance and handle by enough to make up the difference. Of course this year is a bit of an aberration because of the Triple Crown bid and other major races moved to that day that will also all impact attendance and handle positively. But this is the kind of target they are looking at when they move very major races like the Met.


From DRF:

Memorial Day business slides

The absence of the Met Mile from the card likely was the major reason business was down substantially on Monday’s Memorial Day card when compared with a year ago. Attendance Monday, on a gorgeous afternoon, was 6,946, down 40 percent from last year’s crowd of 11,664.

Ontrack handle on Monday’s 10-race card was $1,837,245, down 31.4 percent from last year’s ontrack handle of $2,678,317. There were 11 races run in 2013.

All-sources handle Monday was $9,913,636, a reduction of $6.278 million, or 38 percent, from last year’s total handle of $16,191,654.

I kind of thought this would happen. But racing is moving towards these super Saturday cards. My point at the beginning of this thread was that around 50,000 show up any way.....with a triple crown on the line its double that. A good portion won't know the Met from another race....they'd be there regardless. If you say the Met Mile to ordinary people, they don't know what the hell it is. People that went or played every Memorial day know what the Met Mile is and for regular horse players....it's been traditional. I played Saturday. On Monday I went fishing and the card was ordinary anyway. The big day they are having is great.....it's the card of cards but I don't see it boosting the meet other than one weekend and you are sacrificing traditional main events like the Met which anchored the holiday weekend. Its a great day for players.....its wait and see for the track.

[classhandicapper]

I kind of thought this would happen. But racing is moving towards these super Saturday cards. My point at the beginning of this thread was that around 50,000 show up any way.....with a triple crown on the line its double that. A good portion won't know the Met from another race....they'd be there regardless. If you say the Met Mile to ordinary people, they don't know what the hell it is. People that went or played every Memorial day know what the Met Mile is and for regular horse players....it's been traditional. I played Saturday. On Monday I went fishing and the card was ordinary anyway. The big day they are having is great.....it's the card of cards but I don't see it boosting the meet other than one weekend and you are sacrificing traditional main events like the Met which anchored the holiday weekend. Its a great day for players.....its wait and see for the track.

I looked at the Monday card for 10 minutes and went to Jones beach instead. I'm not sure what that means, but I almost never miss a Met or Belmont. So I was one of the guys that didn't attend or bet yesterday that would have in the past. It's going to take a few years to sort it all out.

[BlueShoe]

Not a fan of messing with traditions.
Ditto. Back in the day, besides the Met Mile on Memorial Day weekend, we also had the Jersey Derby, at one time a very important prestigeous race, won by many great and near great colts. Now its just another ho hum small turf stakes. Many colts might compete in one or more of the Triple Crown races and also the JD or Met. The Met/Belmont double by Conquistador Cielo is an example of how things were back then.

[thespaah]

I looked at the Monday card for 10 minutes and went to Jones beach instead. I'm not sure what that means, but I almost never miss a Met or Belmont. So I was one of the guys that didn't attend or bet yesterday that would have in the past. It's going to take a few years to sort it all out.
A bunch of us went to Jones Beach and left to get to Belmont for the 3rd race on Belmont Day 1979.
One of the guys had a tip on Coastal who won at 4-1.
The attendance was close to 60k. Very hot day.
It was also the year NYRA introduced the "ABS" betting system. Bet/cash at the same window. The lines were very long. The tellers were getting used to the new system. Not very good planning.

[thespaah]

I used to go the Met Mile every year. Always a good crowd. Always a decent card. Nary a maiden race to be seen. Only higher value claimers. A couple of allowance races for winners. And a couple back type allowance tilts as well.
Only so much they could stick in a 9 race card.