State Dept. approves Keystone Pipeline

[Clocker]

The State Dept. released yet another environmental report today saying that there was no evidence that the pipeline would have a significant impact on the environment. The project still has many more potential hurdles and delays before approval. Story here. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-31/this-is-not-the-keystone-decision-that-you-think-it-is.html)

Apparently without direct reference to the pipeline, Obama's Secy of Energy made a statement (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/31/us-usa-energy-moniz-idUSBREA0U05020140131) recently that proponents of the project will be using to urge approval. Between this statement and the State Dept. report, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in the tree-hugging community tonight.

The energy boom of the last decade that has boosted oil and gas production in the United States has outpaced the development of critical infrastructure to transport the raw and refined materials, U.S. Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz said on Thursday.

Reflecting on a spate of accidents involving freight trains pulling tank cars full of volatile crude oil in Canada and the United States, Moniz said that infrastructure development was key, even beyond a reconsideration of rail regulations now under way by U.S. authorities.

“The core approach, really, is that our infrastructure needs to build out,” Moniz said in an interview with Reuters Insider.

“Here we have a case, especially with the production in North Dakota, where the Bakken shale (output) zoomed from essentially nothing to past 1 million barrels a day,” he said.

[JustRalph]

Released on a Friday night just before the Super Bowl

Funny how that works

[Mike at A+]

Correct me if I'm wrong BUT ... had 0bama done this on his own like 2 years ago I believe it would have sent a signal to job creators that it might be a good time to jump back in the pool and start hiring. BUT, now that it has been approved with 0bama basically washing his hands, job creators may not be as eager to see this as a friendly sign and instead see it for what it is. Doing what should have been done two years ago while 0bama votes "present". Oh what could have been.

[JustRalph]

Correct me if I'm wrong BUT ... had 0bama done this on his own like 2 years ago I believe it would have sent a signal to job creators that it might be a good time to jump back in the pool and start hiring. BUT, now that it has been approved with 0bama basically washing his hands, job creators may not be as eager to see this as a friendly sign and instead see it for what it is. Doing what should have been done two years ago while 0bama votes "present". Oh what could have been.

It's not actually approved yet. Obama can still kill it. This just one baby step forward

[Clocker]

It's not actually approved yet. Obama can still kill it. This just one baby step forward

Right. The State Dept. has signed off on it a couple of times before, and it keeps getting delayed and sent back for another environmental study. The State Dept originally approved it in 2011, but with an election coming up, Obama couldn't make a decision without ticking off a large portion of his base. The tree huggers hated it and the unions loved it. So he delayed it and they restudied it, and now he is faced with another decision before another election.

[Robert Goren]

Right. The State Dept. has signed off on it a couple of times before, and it keeps getting delayed and sent back for another environmental study. The State Dept originally approved it in 2011, but with an election coming up, Obama couldn't make a decision without ticking off a large portion of his base. The tree huggers hated it and the unions loved it. So he delayed it and they restudied it, and now he is faced with another decision before another election.Nobody believes the Koch brothers are going to use union labor. Every state in its path is a right-to-work state.

[Ocala Mike]

Don't expect anything from the White House until after the 2014 election.

[boxcar]

It's not actually approved yet. Obama can still kill it. This just one baby step forward

And since he has no qualms about women murdering tiny little babes while still warm, safe and secure in their wombs....then what action he will take is probably pretty predictable -- unless he comes under extreme pressure from his own party due to two upcoming elections.

Boxcar

[Clocker]

Nobody believes the Koch brothers are going to use union labor. Every state in its path is a right-to-work state.

The Koch brothers are building the pipeline? That's a major scoop even the left wing media has missed.

[Track Collector]

Correct me if I'm wrong BUT ... had 0bama done this on his own like 2 years ago I believe it would have sent a signal to job creators that it might be a good time to jump back in the pool and start hiring. BUT, now that it has been approved with 0bama basically washing his hands, job creators may not be as eager to see this as a friendly sign and instead see it for what it is. Doing what should have been done two years ago while 0bama votes "present". Oh what could have been.

I may have missed this in some of your earlier replies. The number zero instead of an O. Clever.:)

I have very low regard for our current President's policies as well.


...

[mostpost]

I may have missed this in some of your earlier replies. The number zero instead of an O. Clever.:)

I have very low regard for our current President's policies as well.


...
I'm sure it's a typo. Mike at A+ is N0T that clever.

[hcap]

Between this statement and the State Dept. report, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in the tree-hugging community tonight.
Gee, those lousy tree luggers.

Exxon Valdez oil spill
the 2008 coal ash spill in Tennessee
Love Canal toxic dump disaster
Great Pacific Garbage Patch
Gulf Of Mexico Dead Zone
Libby, Montana Asbestos Contamination
Tennessee Coal Sludge Spill
Three Mile Island Nuclear Meltdown
Oklahoma Lead Contamination
Anniston, Alabama PCB Poisioning

http://newsone.com/playlist/americas-worst-environmental-disasters/item/1725197

Yuck Yuck Hahahahahaha!

[Clocker]

Gee, those lousy tree luggers.



Nothing wrong with tree luggers. They are good, hard working lumberjacks.

I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
I sleep all night and I work all day.

MOUNTIES:
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.


Tree huggers, on the other hand, tend to be too dogmatic and unbending, and don't know how to pick their fights. They have nothing to win in this one. That oil is going to be produced and burned somewhere, pipeline or no pipeline. And it is going to be imported into this country, by pipeline or by rail.

And if that "dirty" oil is burned in this country, it will pollute the world less than if it is burned in China.

None of which has the least bit to do with Obama's refusal to make a decision. It's all about elections. Same as it ever was.

[hcap]

Nothing wrong with tree luggers. They are good, hard working lumberjacks.



Tree huggers, on the other hand, tend to be too dogmatic and unbending, and don't know how to pick their fights. They have nothing to win in this one. That oil is going to be produced and burned somewhere, pipeline or no pipeline. And it is going to be imported into this country, by pipeline or by rail.

And if that "dirty" oil is burned in this country, it will pollute the world less than if it is burned in China.

None of which has the least bit to do with Obama's refusal to make a decision. It's all about elections. Same as it ever was.There are idiots in all endeavors. But the idiots that covered up just how massive oil spills really were are criminals. Or for that matter tobacco scientists, or nuclear industry spokespeople. I would take 1 tree hungers over 10 Exxon Mobile oil hugges telling me everything is just ducky----until of course we search for those ducks covered under a massive coating of oil residue.

[Clocker]

But the idiots that covered up just how massive oil spills really were are criminals.

Then the "tree hungers" (They are eating trees now? A new form of vegan?) should stop wasting everyone's time and money fighting pointless battles like this pipeline and do something productive. Like focus on getting the government to punish true criminals instead of slapping them on the wrists. The same applies for financial criminals. They aren't going to stop until some of them go to jail.

[hcap]

Then the "tree hungers" (They are eating trees now? A new form of vegan?) should stop wasting everyone's time and money fighting pointless battles like this pipeline and do something productive. Like focus on getting the government to punish true criminals instead of slapping them on the wrists. The same applies for financial criminals. They aren't going to stop until some of them go to jail.One of the problems "tree huggers" face are attitudes like yours trying to minimize environmental concerns by joking about how foolish they are. Your original comment... may be humorous but not so funny. Fracking is quite a complex issue, ad the countries' needs for energy and energy independence is tough to reconcile with the demonstrable environmental problems. I get that. But our petro thirsts and dependency gets shoved aside. When disasters occur, many times the powers that be are apt to cover up the extent of the problems. I don't think that is funny either. But of course you are entitled to your sense of humor. In fact I am only calling it to your attention to point out how the right is many times, inappropriately smug.

I don't get your apparent hard line on environmentalism. Maybe your not? Other than the obvious lightweights in the movement, environmentalists have woken up the public to real 20th & 21st century problems.

And if Obama had a larger perspective and a set, he would have killed it.

He caved.

[Clocker]

I don't get your apparent hard line on environmentalism.

I don't have a hard line on environmentalism. It is a proper function of government to protect the rights of citizens who cannot protect themselves. Pollution is an infringement of the rights of others.

The government has done its job here. It has repeatedly found that the pipeline is not a threat. The squeaky wheel tree huggers can't accept that, and continue to beat a dead horse when they should move on to do something productive.

And if Obama had a set, he would approve it instead of letting elections micromanage every policy decision.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Nobody believes the Koch brothers are going to use union labor. Every state in its path is a right-to-work state.

Yes, the Koch brothers control the world - their donations did a great job in the 2012 elections. Putting your insanity aside, building a pipeline requires lots of SKILLED labor. Workers, union and non-union (especially welders--big shortage), will be rewarded handsomely for their efforts if it moves forward.

[Clocker]

Yes, the Koch brothers control the world - their donations did a great job in the 2012 elections. Putting your insanity aside, building a pipeline requires lots of SKILLED labor. Workers, union and non-union (especially welders--big shortage), will be rewarded handsomely for their efforts if it moves forward.

The pipeline project is run by a company called TransCanada. I have seen no evidence of any connection with the Koch brothers. The Kochs do apparently own tar sand land in Canada, but they are going to sell the oil whether the pipeline goes south or west.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The pipeline project is run by a company called TransCanada. I have seen no evidence of any connection with the Koch brothers. The Kochs do apparently own tar sand land in Canada, but they are going to sell the oil whether the pipeline goes south or west.

Buffet won't be happy if this moves forward (Burlington Northern), though. Such a shame.

[hcap]

I don't have a hard line on environmentalism. It is a proper function of government to protect the rights of citizens who cannot protect themselves. Pollution is an infringement of the rights of others.

The government has done its job here. It has repeatedly found that the pipeline is not a threat. The squeaky wheel tree huggers can't accept that, and continue to beat a dead horse when they should move on to do something productive.

And if Obama had a set, he would approve it instead of letting elections micromanage every policy decision.Squeaky wheel? Union for Concerned Scientists? You continue to ignore real concerns, and whether or not the government did due diligence will not be known for a while.

http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/ask/2013/fracking.html

What Does the Data Actually Tell Us about the Risks Associated with Fracking?

One of the risks is the potential for drinking-water contamination. Many fracking sites around the country have operated successfully with no known water contamination issues. But the risk of serious problems is real and borne out by the evidence. We have already seen documented cases of groundwater contamination near oil and gas wells from fracking fluids as well as from gases, including methane and volatile organic compounds. Surface waters also face contamination risks from potential spills and leaks of chemical additives, diesel or other fluids from equipment on site, or leaks of wastewater from facilities for storage, treatment, and disposal. Water quantity issues can also present risks: the large volume of water used in fracking operations has already raised concerns about water availability in some water-scarce regions.

[Clocker]

Squeaky wheel? Union for Concerned Scientists? You continue to ignore real concerns, and whether or not the government did due diligence will not be known for a while.

Squeaky wheel = tree huggers beating the Keystone dead horse.

I said nothing about freaking fracking or the "Union of Concerned Scientists". I haven't a clue who they are, or their relevance to the pipeline, which is all I am discussing here. I explained my views on the pipeline here. I said nothing about fracking or nukes or any of the other hobgoblins and WMDs you are accusing me of ignoring in the name of greed.

Yes, you are correct that we can't know if the government really did a good job on its due diligence. I guess it is like ObamaCare. We have to accept it to find out what is in it.

[hcap]

Squeaky wheel = tree huggers beating the Keystone dead horse.

I said nothing about freaking fracking or the "Union of Concerned Scientists". I haven't a clue who they are, or their relevance to the pipeline, which is all I am discussing here. I explained my views on the pipeline here. I said nothing about fracking or nukes or any of the other hobgoblins and WMDs you are accusing me of ignoring in the name of greed.

Yes, you are correct that we can't know if the government really did a good job on its due diligence. I guess it is like ObamaCare. We have to accept it to find out what is in it.Environmental concerns of fracking is the focus of course. The Union of Concerned Scientists is only one highly respected scientific organization that has been involved. I did not know there were squeaky tree huggers and oiled tree huggers. I should have realized you would only complain about those not getting very well "luubed" by the oil lobby Once again if this is a "joke" as you seem to think, we all might get very well lubed shortly

[LottaKash]

Gee, those lousy tree luggers.

Exxon Valdez oil spill
the 2008 coal ash spill in Tennessee
Love Canal toxic dump disaster
Great Pacific Garbage Patch
Gulf Of Mexico Dead Zone
Libby, Montana Asbestos Contamination
Tennessee Coal Sludge Spill
Three Mile Island Nuclear Meltdown
Oklahoma Lead Contamination
Anniston, Alabama PCB Poisioning

http://newsone.com/playlist/americas-worst-environmental-disasters/item/1725197

Yuck Yuck Hahahahahaha!

I agree wholeheardtedly about all of those tragedies...They all could've, but weren't, preventable....But those things are unrelated to the pipeline issue, imo..

I worked for a major oil company for some 20 odd years, and I was heavily involved, with the transfer of petroleum products throughout the northeast, and many other destinations around our nation, so I no a few things about pipelines that the general populace are unaware of....

If it was more well known of how "big" an industry this nation's pipelines are, and of how large the number of pipelines that are and have been operating for so many years, it would reveal the relative safety of this spider web network of pipelines that lace the entire country....This is in contrast to other blatant chemical and petroleum blunders in our history, that were for the most, part VERY PREVENTABLE....

These pipelines operate on a 24/7/365 schedule, and without them this nation would come to a complete standstill...They are that important to our economy and survival as a nation....

Now "fracking" is a whole other thing....It is very dangerous to our environment, despite what it's proponents would have you believe, imo...The tree huggers have solid ground to stand on in this regard, imo..

[Clocker]

Environmental concerns of fracking is the focus of course. The Union of Concerned Scientists is only one highly respected scientific organization that has been involved. I did not know there were squeaky tree huggers and oiled tree huggers. I should have realized you would only complain about those not getting very well "luubed" by the oil lobby Once again if this is a "joke" as you seem to think, we all might get very well lubed shortly

What part of what I keep repeating do you not understand? Pollution and damage to the environment are serious problems. But even the moonbat State Department has determined that Keystone is not part of that problem. People who continue to beat that dead horse are squeaky wheels who deserve the name "tree huggers".

I have limited my comments here to the pipeline. I have said nothing about fracking and you keep trying to beat me over the head with it. Now you are the squeaky wheel, making me the straw man on an issue I have not discussed. Or is this a sin of omission? I haven't taken a position on fracking, so that proves that I must be in favor of it?

[hcap]

I agree wholeheardtedly about all of those tragedies...They all could've, but weren't, preventable....But those things are unrelated to the pipeline issue, imo..

I worked for a major oil com for some 20 odd years, and I was heavily involved, with the transfer of petroleum products throughout the northeast, and many other destinations around our nation, so I no a few things about pipelines that the general populace are unaware of....

If it was more well known of how "big" an industry this nation's pipelines are, and of how large the number of pipelines that are and have been operating for so many years, it would reveal the relative safety of this spider web network of pipelines that lace the entire country....This is in contrast to other blatant chemical and petroleum blunders in our history, that were for the most, part VERY PREVENTABLE....

These pipelines operate on a 24/7/365 schedule, and without them this nation would come to a complete standstill...They are that important to our economy and survival as a nation....

Now "fracking" is a whole other thing....It is very dangerous to our environment, despite what it's proponents would have you believe, imo...The tree huggers have solid ground to stand on in this regard, imo..Yes fracking is the main impetus behind this pipeline. I would guess it would not have been pushed so strongly otherwise. It appers there are numerous (http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/08/06/fracking-ties-flawed-state-dept-keystone-xl-environmental-review) ties between key members of the fracking industry and groups pushing for approval of the Keystone XL pipeline.

ERM Group did the official U.S. State Department's environmental review for Keystone XL pipeline. The review, published in March 2013, determined the pipeline will have negligible climate change impacts (the review dealt with the northern segment of the pipeline as the southern half, now known as the "Gulf Coast Pipeline," received an expedited Executive Order permit by President Barack Obama in March 2012).

ERM is also a paying member of the American Petroleum Institute (API), which has spent over $22 million lobbying on Keystone XL since June 2008

http://vimeo.com/72391258

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yes fracking is the main impetus behind this pipeline. I would guess it would not have been pushed so strongly otherwise. It appers there are numerous (http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/08/06/fracking-ties-flawed-state-dept-keystone-xl-environmental-review) ties between key members of the fracking industry and groups pushing for approval of the Keystone XL pipeline.



http://vimeo.com/72391258

Isn't most of the oil that will flow through the Keystone from the Canadian tar sands? If so, what does that have to do with fracking? I think there's a portion of the pipeline (there are different phases) that would go through ND (the Bakken, where fracking takes place). It seems like you're off-point here even if your fracking objections are legit.

[Clocker]

I think there's a portion of the pipeline (there are different phases) that would go through ND (the Bakken, where fracking takes place). It seems like you're off-point here even if your fracking objections are legit.

I believe that is Buffett's target market for his oil trains.

[hcap]

I live in western NY close to the PA border. People are rightfully becoming squeaky wheels

http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/drilling/

The Marcellus Shale has been underneath Pennsylvania for centuries, but the extraction of natural gas began only recently. The "fracking" boom is changing the landscape of northeastern and southwestern Pennsylvania. Use this tool to learn which operators are drilling, and where. Find active wells in your county or municipality — and see whether the drillers have been cited for violating state environmental regulations. Read more about the data.


Operators
59
Active Wells
6,391
Violations
3,331
Total Fines
$4.9 million

There are reports of similar violations in many states.
http://www.earthworksaction.org/issues/results?cx=005684611712308038642%3Aasnojazxrdk&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=violation&sa=Search

For instance Texas......

http://www.earthworksaction.org/images/uploads/Texas_enforcement_data_footnotes.gif

[Saratoga_Mike]

I live in western NY close to the PA border. People are rightfully becoming squeaky wheels
]

This has nothing to do with the Keystone Pipeline, but your objection to fracking is noted.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by hcap
I live in western NY close to the PA border. People are rightfully becoming squeaky wheels

Like Sarah Palin, you can see Pennsylvania from your porch.
Count the jobs that fracking has brought them.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Like Sarah Palin, you can see Pennsylvania from your porch.
Count the jobs that fracking has brought them.

I wonder if Sarah Palin could find Pennsylvania on a map - I'm betting no.

[chrisl]

Hey Mike: It is easy to knock someone who can not defend themselves. Even more of waste of honer to have it be a woman. Pretty weak spined to Knock a women. I bet you are one tough guy. Come up to Alaska tough guy.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Hey Mike: It is easy to knock someone who can not defend themselves. Even more of waste of honer to have it be a woman. Pretty weak spined to Knock a women. I bet you are one tough guy. Come up to Alaska tough guy.

Unlike you, I'm not sexist. Ms. Palin is in the political arena. Therefore, she's open to criticism just like any male politician/public figure. In most cases when she's criticized, she does a nice job of defending herself. Your post is ridiculous.

[chrisl]

Good answer, from a very weak man.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Good answer, from a very weak man.

I view women as intellectually equal to men. If that offends you, I'm sorry. In any case, when did I say I was tough? I can't remember ever saying that. I do enjoy Alaska State Troopers if that makes you feel better.

[hcap]

Isn't most of the oil that will flow through the Keystone from the Canadian tar sands? If so, what does that have to do with fracking? I think there's a portion of the pipeline (there are different phases) that would go through ND (the Bakken, where fracking takes place). It seems like you're off-point here even if your fracking objections are legit. Investors (http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/08/06/fracking-ties-flawed-state-dept-keystone-xl-environmental-review) refer to Keystone XL's northern half as the "Bakken Marketlink." That's because one of the main goals of the pipeline's northern half - other than pulling Alberta's tar sands to Gulf Coast export markets - is to carry North Dakota's Bakken Shale fracked oil to market via pipeline. Right now, due to lack of pipeline infrastructure, rail serves as the chief way to get fracked Bakken Oil to market.

In June 2013, ERM said a Bakken fracked oil and tar sands refinery made the air "cleaner" in Delaware City in a study funded by the owner of the refinery itself. The fracked oil and tar sands goo gets to that refinery via freight rail owned by Norfolk Southern.

And tying it all back to where the tale began in Philadelphia, the unconventional oil industry is gearing up to carry upwards of 400,000 barrels of Bakken fracked oil via freight rail to the city's refineries.

Industry publication Rig Zone said this could make Philadelphia a prospective "Cushing East," referring to Cushing, Oklahoma, the "pipeline crossroads of the world." Philly may soon also become a shale gas export hub. It was in Cushing that President Obama - standing in front of the pipe pieces that would soon make up the 95-percent complete Keystone XL's southern half - made a speech promoting expedited building of the "Cushing Marketlink" that will pump 700,000 barrels of tar sands per day to Gulf Coast refineries by the end of the year.

On top of this another pipeline is being deployed. Spectra Energy is expanding its fracking pipelines throughout the U.S., including Boston. If I was planning distribution networks, I would try to cover as much territory as possible.

I think, if you only look at costs, fracking is more cost effective than extracting tar sands. The cost savings for fracking could slowly replace parts of the Keystone conduit with gas transport..

Keystone today. The 1,179-mile (1,897km) pipeline would carry tar sand oil from Alberta in Canada to Nebraska. The oil would then be transported on existing pipes to refineries in Texas. The Keystone XL project aims to carry some 830,000 barrels of heavy crude a day from the fields in Alberta.Btw, Tar sands have serious environmental problem too. Tar sands consist of heavy crude oil mixed with sand, clay and bitumen. Extraction entails burning natural gas to generate enough heat and steam to melt the oil out of the sand. As many as five barrels of water are needed to produce a single barrel of oil.

Tar sands oil is the worst type of oil for the climate, producing three times the greenhouse gas emissions of conventionally produced oil because of the energy required to extract and process tar sands oil.

Keystone will open the doors to more investment in gas. We will be on our way to the better bottom line, but at what environmental costs?

If I was not so concerned about the environmental impact of fracking, from a terminological point of view I would much prefer burning gas than oil.

[hcap]

http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/10/10/20600-barrels-fracked-oil-spill-north-dakota-publicity-halted-due-government-shutdown

Over 865,200 Gallons of Fracked Oil Spill in ND, Public In Dark For Days Due to Government Shutdown

Over 20,600 barrels of oil fracked from the Bakken Shale has spilled from a Tesoro Logistics pipeline in Tioga, North Dakota in one of the biggest onshore oil spills in recent U.S. history.

Though the spill occurred on September 29, the U.S. National Response Center - tasked with responding to chemical and oil spills - did not make the report available until October 8 due to the ongoing government shutdown.

"The center generally makes such reports available on its website within 24 hours of their filing, but services were interrupted last week because of the U.S. government shutdown," explained Reuters.

The "Incident Summaries" portion of the National Response Center's website is currently down, and the homepage notes, "Due to [the] government shutdown, some services may not be available."

At more than 20,600 barrels - equivalent to 865,200 gallons - the spill was bigger than the April 2013 ExxonMobil Pegasus pipeline spill, which spewed 5,000-7,000 barrels of tar sands bitumen into a residential neighborhood in Mayflower, Arkansas.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-08/safety-alert-issued-over-dangers-of-fracked-oil

Safety alert issued over dangers of fracked oil
bJan 8, 2014

The U.S. Department of Transportation has issued an unprecedented safety alert on the transport of hydraulically fractured oil from North Dakota's booming Bakken oil fields that could also cool Canada's unconventional oil rush.

"Recent derailments and resulting fires indicate that the type of crude oil being transported from the Bakken region may be more flammable than traditional heavy crude oil," says the alert from the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA).

Yes fracked oil Similar process

"the U.S. oil market could be at the beginning of a boom similar to what the natural gas market is already experiencing. As a result, domestic production is now projected to rise significantly over the coming decades, reducing the relative share of imports in U.S. oil consumption."

Keystone would be part of that distribution network

[delayjf]

I wonder if Sarah Palin could find Pennsylvania on a map - I'm betting no.

Unlike Obama, I'll bet she knows we only have 50 states and not 57, and Sarah didn't go to Harvard. :lol:

[Tom]

Over 865,200 Gallons of Fracked Oil Spill in ND, Public In Dark For Days Due to Government Shutdown

Those GD democrats!
THEY had the power to avoid the shutdown and chose not to.
Frack them.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Unlike Obama, I'll bet she knows we only have 50 states and not 57, and Sarah didn't go to Harvard. :lol:

Now that's true!

[Saratoga_Mike]

HCAP,

The Bakkan portion of the pipeline is already complete.* The portion that John Kerry (really Obama) will approve/disapprove is the piece connecting the Canadian tar sands to the US (and it won't travel through ND). Your fracking point isn't relevant to the current Keystone discussion. So keep your fracking opinion to yourself!

*see the map in yesterday's WSJ

[hcap]

Unlike Obama, I'll bet she knows we only have 50 states and not 57, and Sarah didn't go to Harvard. :lol:Maybe, but she went to a hell of a lot MORE COLLEGES.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/palin-attended-5-colleges_n_124036.html

Palin Attended 5 Colleges In 6 Years

:D

[hcap]

HCAP,

The Bakkan portion of the pipeline is already complete.* The portion that John Kerry (really Obama) will approve/disapprove is the piece connecting the Canadian tar sands to the US (and it won't travel through ND). Your fracking point isn't relevant to the current Keystone discussion. So keep your fracking opinion to yourself!

*see the map in yesterday's WSJ So you say. Link to the map?

[Saratoga_Mike]

So you say. Link to the map?

I don't read papers online; I read the paper version (page A2). If you hadn't intimated that I was making it up, I would find a link for you. But find it yourself!

[Clocker]

Palin Attended 5 Colleges In 6 Years

:D

Sounds like she put in a lot more effort to get a degree than Obama did. That kind of academic history is typical of someone with no financial help busting their butt to get through school.

[FantasticDan]

Unlike Obama, I'll bet she knows we only have 50 states and not 57, and Sarah didn't go to Harvard. :lol:Setting aside his idiot defenders that suggest that in the context of his remarks, he obviously meant to say 47, but did you ever wonder how Obama arrived at thinking there was 57 states?

Seems so arbitrary. I mean, why not think there are 38 states? Or 71? Or 150? All are just as random as 57.

Maybe he was looking forward to a steak that nite and the "Heinz 57" sauce he would put on it. Or maybe he just listened to Springsteen's 1992 tune, "57 Channels and Nothing On". Maybe he rode in a '57 Chevy during one of his campaign stops.

Or maybe he's just a really big stoopid head. :ThmbUp: :lol: :ThmbUp:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Setting aside his idiot defenders that suggest that in the context of his remarks, he obviously meant to say 47, but did you ever wonder how Obama arrived at thinking there was 57 states?

Seems so arbitrary. I mean, why not think there are 38 states? Or 71? Or 150? All are just as random as 57.

Maybe he was looking forward to a steak that nite and the "Heinz 57" sauce he would put on it. Or maybe he just listened to Springsteen's 1992 tune, "57 Channels and Nothing On". Maybe he rode in a '57 Chevy during one of his campaign stops.

Or maybe he's just a really big stoopid head. :ThmbUp: :lol: :ThmbUp:

So magnanimous of you to give Obama a pass for "misspeaking." I'm certain you'd extend the same courtesy to a Rep. We all know you're consistent and objective regardless of a politician's political affiliation.

[hcap]

I don't read papers online; I read the paper version (page A2). If you hadn't intimated that I was making it up, I would find a link for you. But find it yourself!Gee wilikers, don't bother your pretentious self. You seem pretty full of yourself Mike. I can think of a number of right wingers that post here that are also full. :lol: :lol:

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/01/keystone-pipeline-report-state-department-102948.html

1/31/14 3:30 PM EST

The State Department on Friday released a final environmental study of the Keystone XL oil pipeline that increases the odds the project will win approval from the Obama administration, delivering yet another disappointment for climate activists.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/01/keystone-pipeline-report-state-department-102948.html#ixzz2sBhZYpvY


http://images.politico.com/global/2014/01/31/keystone_graphic_bloom_605.jpg

Do you see the legend "Keystone XL Northern leg PROPOSED "? Do you see? I am legally blind but I can see "Proposed" If I blow up the image.

As I believe I have also blown up your argument. :lol:


Keystone XL gets environmental OK from U.S. State Dept.
Report not the final step in the years-long battle, but could prove crucial

CBC News Posted: Jan 31, 2014 7:16 AM ET Last Updated: Jan 31, 2014 10:32 PM ET

Or the older map, on wiki where Phase 1 is complete and Phase 4 is proposed :lol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Keystone-pipeline-route.png



.

[Saratoga_Mike]

HCAP - your own chart (one on the top) says the pipeline (current phase under consideration) would carry oil from the Canadian tar sands to refineries in the Texas region. Are we in agreement? Why the fixation on fracking? Hell you could make a much more powerful argument against tar sands crude. And yes, I like to be obnoxious toward you!

By the way, your top chart is what appeared on page A2 of the WSJ.

[hcap]

You are wrong, I was not claiming that you were making it up I hadn't seen it and could not find it

[Saratoga_Mike]

You are wrong, I was not claiming that you were making it up I hadn't seen it and could not find it

I just went to the State Dept press release. While the pipeline will carry mostly Canadian tar sands oil, it also mentions a connector in Montana - that would presumably carry "fracked" crude, so I was wrong about that. All that said, the State Dept report focuses on greenhouse gases from the tar sands crude, not sure why you're fixated on the much smaller fracking piece?

Go to the State Dept website and the press release section - the map you posted here also appears in the release.

[hcap]

HCAP - your own chart (one on the top) says the pipeline (current phase under consideration) would carry oil from the Canadian tar sands to refineries in the Texas region. Are we in agreement? Why the fixation on fracking? Hell you could make a much more powerful argument against tar sands crude. And yes, I like to be obnoxious toward you!

By the way, your top chart is what appeared on page A2 of the WSJ.Did you or did you NOT say HCAP,

The Bakkan portion of the pipeline is already complete.* The portion that John Kerry (really Obama) will approve/disapprove is the piece connecting the Canadian tar sands to the US (and it won't travel through ND). Your fracking point isn't relevant to the current Keystone discussion. So keep your fracking opinion to yourself!It's one thing to make a mistake, but another thing to compound it by disavowing what you said quite clearly.

Keystohne XL is the part of the pipeline that is being scrutinized. Not the older section that is already built. You obviously got it backwards, and my worries about fracking may be justified. It will go through as you yourself said "through ND (the Bakken, where fracking takes place"

Fess up[ and all is forgiven :cool:

[Saratoga_Mike]

Just said I was wrong about Bakkan crude - I wasn't aware of the Montana connector.

Whether the pipeline is built or not, fracking will continue in North Dakota. If no additional pipeline capacity is ever added, fracking will continue - the oil will simply be transported by rail.* If you think about the environmental impact from hauling crude by rail, it's much worse than a pipeline. My whole point is you're fighting the wrong fight here, and I stand by that. If you oppose fracking in ND, join a group in ND who oppose it. You need to fight the source, not the transportation mode.

*Google Trinity Industries - they make rail cars - their backlog for tanker cars that carry crude is through the roof

[hcap]

Where and what does the Montana connectr connect ?. It seems quite obvious the XL expansion will carry all kinds of crude through, and from connectors that can hook up anywhere along the XL route, not just in MontanaIt goes right though fracking fields all through that territory.

[hcap]

I just went to the State Dept press release. While the pipeline will carry mostly Canadian tar sands oil, it also mentions a connector in Montana - that would presumably carry "fracked" crude, so I was wrong about that. All that said, the State Dept report focuses on greenhouse gases from the tar sands crude, not sure why you're fixated on the much smaller fracking piece?Read my earlier posts about fracking oil and possible shifts to the expansion of Keystone XL to transport gas as well

All rights of way are in the bag. As I said Tar sands are not as cheap as fracked gas (or fracked oil for that matter) Fracking is gonna win out. I can imagine gas pipelines running first parallel and then supplementing and replacing sections of oil lines to create a more expansive gas infrastructure. I hate to admit it, but technologically speaking fracking is a gold mine. Botrh oil and gas. Unless safety engineers can pull a bunch of rabbits ot of their buts, it may not be too pretty.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Wasn't even looking for this, but thought it was relevant to our discussion when I saw the headline...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-01/california-getting-record-volume-of-canadian-oil-by-rail.html

[Saratoga_Mike]

Read my earlier posts about fracking oil and possible shifts to the expansion of Keystone XL to transport gas as well

.

I'm not sure on your nat gas point - my understanding is fracking costs for nat gas are lowest in the Marcellus shale. I believe there are a couple of new pipelines that are near completion (sometime this year?) that will carry the gas from the Marcellus formation to petrochemical plants in Louisiana.

[Clocker]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-01/california-getting-record-volume-of-canadian-oil-by-rail.html

From that article:

California, the third-largest oil-refining state in the U.S., is bringing in a record volume of oil from Canada by rail as it faces shrinking supplies from Alaska and within the state.

They wouldn't have that problem, and they would do a lot for the state's financial problems, if they allowed off-shore drilling.

[hcap]

Right of way is a consideration As I said.....All rights of way are in the bag

http://pipelineandgasjournal.com/billions-needed-meet-long-term-natural-gas-infrastructure-supply-demands?page=4

The study finds the cost of pipeline construction is divided roughly equally between materials, labor and miscellaneous. In 2007, materials costs accounted for over 35 percent of total costs, but have since declined. The miscellaneous category includes engineering, surveying, administration, and environmental costs. Costs for right-of-way account for 8 to 9 percent of total construction costs. This component has recently increased at a slightly faster rate than the other components. It is projected that the labor and right-of-way components will grow slightly faster than the other components, as skilled labor remains a premium commodity and pipeline permitting and siting continue to increase in complexity. The cost of materials is projected to increase at a rate slightly less than inflation and account for about 25 percent of total pipeline construction costs by 2030.

[hcap]

Sounds like she put in a lot more effort to get a degree than Obama did. That kind of academic history is typical of someone with no financial help busting their butt to get through school.Did she work her way through 6 colleges cheerleading? Sounds impressive :lol:

Of course someone who was only selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review at the end of his first year and president of the journal in his second year can't hold a candle to that stellar cheerleading career. :lol:

[spicytomato]

About that pipeline
am i the only one that thinks

why not allow those oil people to bid on building refinery
up near the where the oil is coming into our country

much faster to complete
and way many jobs there where its needed.,
also no need to purchase a bunch of land and put people in danger
of something happening along the pipeline or out of their homes

just a thought ;)

[Clocker]

About that pipeline
am i the only one that thinks

why not allow those oil people to bid on building refinery
up near the where the oil is coming into our country



If they built the refineries up north, they would then have to build pipelines from the refineries to their major markets for the finished products. Those pipelines already exists down south.

[Clocker]

Did she work her way through 6 colleges cheerleading? Sounds impressive :lol:

Of course someone who was only selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review at the end of his first year and president of the journal in his second year can't hold a candle to that stellar cheerleading career. :lol:

Amazing. You are so desperate to try to prop up your failed messiah that you take to savaging a mediocre, has-been politician whose 15 minutes of fame have come and gone. Obama is smarter than Sarah Palin? That's the best that you can come up with?

[hcap]

Amazing. You are so desperate to try to prop up your failed messiah that you take to savaging a mediocre, has-been politician whose 15 minutes of fame have come and gone. Obama is smarter than Sarah Palin? That's the best that you can come up with?Get off your prancing high horse. All I did was respond to this stupidity

Unlike Obama, I'll bet she knows we only have 50 states and not 57, and Sarah didn't go to Harvard.
See how quickly some pretentious right wingers act when they feel one of their silly idols got clobbered, yet don't see it when they see they were the initial clobborers :rolleyes:

Amazing is correct

[hcap]

Sounds like she put in a lot more effort to get a degree than Obama did. That kind of academic history is typical of someone with no financial help busting their butt to get through school.Ok, my bad. Certainly cheerleading would require more extensive butt busting than law school

As you said amazing! :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Jj_bRsJsAnA/Swa1JZLSHeI/AAAAAAAAADI/hkCYZbPxajs/s320/Palin1.jpg

[Clocker]

All I did was respond to this stupidity


Only a Kool Aid drinker would take that literally. Any one with a sense of humor would take it as sarcasm.

[hcap]

Only a Kool Aid drinker would take that literally. Any one with a sense of humor would take it as sarcasm.You are some piece of work.
Did she work her way through 6 colleges cheerleading? Sounds impressive

Of course someone who was only selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review at the end of his first year and president of the journal in his second year can't hold a candle to that stellar cheerleading career.

So you think was deadly serious? Why did you take this literally?
Should I have written "SATIRE" so you would be able to get more sophisticated humor than "57" states? Is any line longer than 6 characters excessive?

HeeHaw :rolleyes:

[Robert Goren]

Just think, If Sarah had gotten that job at ESPN, she might hosting a liberal talk show on some cable network nobody watches.

[mostpost]

I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
I sleep all night and I work all day.

MOUNTIES:
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL7n5mEmXJo

[hcap]

HCAP - your own chart (one on the top) says the pipeline (current phase under consideration) would carry oil from the Canadian tar sands to refineries in the Texas region. Are we in agreement? Why the fixation on fracking? Hell you could make a much more powerful argument against tar sands crude. And yes, I like to be obnoxious toward you!

By the way, your top chart is what appeared on page A2 of the WSJ.Ok but you were fixating on the already built Keystone mistaking what the current XL line being voted on with the original line and accusing me of not making any sense because the XL line does does not go through the as you say ("the Bakken, where fracking takes place) :rolleyes:
Isn't most of the oil that will flow through the Keystone from the Canadian tar sands? If so, what does that have to do with fracking? I think there's a portion of the pipeline (there are different phases) that would go through ND (the Bakken, where fracking takes place). It seems like you're off-point here even if your fracking objections are legit.So you obviously WERE LOOKING at the original Keystone line not XL being voted on or you would not have said the above. Proof of this before you started to walk back your booboo. :lol:
HCAP,

The Bakkan portion of the pipeline is already complete.* The portion that John Kerry (really Obama) will approve/disapprove is the piece connecting the Canadian tar sands to the US (and it won't travel through ND). Your fracking point isn't relevant to the current Keystone discussion. So keep your fracking opinion to yourself!

*see the map in yesterday's WSJ


Of course after you realized you screwed up you deflected with something about a Montana connecter you overlooked. As though that somehow changed and excused your boo boo.

Just out of curiosity, I asked you about that connecter. Are you saying there is no other place for the frackers in Bakken fields to connect other than some ONE place only in Montana. Sounds wrong.


Just sayin' :lol: :lol:

[hcap]

Warning! warning!, the following is SATIRE and may not be appropriate for all political groups, especially those that claim objectivity and independence, and no connection to Ayn Rand :lol: but tow the rather foolish reactionary ant-environmental con line


Did she work her way through 6 colleges cheerleading? Sounds impressive

Of course someone who was only selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review at the end of his first year and president of the journal in his second year can't hold a candle to that stellar cheerleading career.

[Clocker]

but tow the rather foolish reactionary ant-environmental con line


That would be "toe". "Tow" is what you do with Obama's baggage.

HTH.

[Clocker]

White House Chief of Staff Denis McDonough said on Meet the Press (http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/02/obama-chief-of-staff-refuses-to-address-keystone-pipeline-after-inconvenient-report-video/)that now that the State Department has determined that the pipeline will not have any impact on the environment, the administration will study the pipeline to see if it will have any impact on the environment. He also says that politics will not play any role in the decision. :rolleyes:

MCDONOUGH: So, we’re going to obviously resolve the Keystone question, but that’s one in a much bigger issue that we’re focused on –

GREGORY: Fair enough, but I’m focused on it so just indulge me. What would stop him from saying yes at this point, given his own State Department saying there’s not a big impact on the climate from doing this?

MCDONOUGH: He’s been very clear that he’s going to insulate this process from politics. Washington loves the politics –

GREGORY: I didn’t ask about politics. You got a State Department study.

MCDONOUGH: And we have one department with a study. Now we have other expert agencies, the EPA and many others — the Energy Department — that have an opportunity to look at this and make their determinations. The president wants to protect their ability to do that [and] make this decision based on the best analysis and most sound science.

[rastajenk]

Ah, the EPA and Energy...Goon Squads, to be utilized Chicago-style.

[Greyfox]

If they built the refineries up north, they would then have to build pipelines from the refineries to their major markets for the finished products. Those pipelines already exists down south.

Alberta, Canada has lots of refineries.
The Athabasca Oil Sands project is tremendously huge and more refinery capacity is needed.
A shortage of skilled laborers in Alberta to build new refineries, means higher wages for those who can be lured to do that work.
Building the refineries in the U.S. is a cheaper go for the company behind the Keystone pipeline.

[spicytomato]

Alberta, Canada has lots of refineries.
The Athabasca Oil Sands project is tremendously huge and more refinery capacity is needed.
A shortage of skilled laborers in Alberta to build new refineries, means higher wages for those who can be lured to do that work.
Building the refineries in the U.S. is a cheaper go for the company behind the Keystone pipeline.

yes i agree. It really would make a job rush up there
and Exxon bought over a million acres of oil sand rich area
would be good to give oil companies a shot at bidding for
rights to build where many jobs are needed

also could move the product by using shipping channels off the coast
the area covered would be way less than the pipeline
and way less costly as well as less intrusive on the land and people

[Saratoga_Mike]

Of course after you realized you screwed up you deflected with something about a Montana connecter you overlooked. As though that somehow changed and excused your boo boo.

Just out of curiosity, I asked you about that connecter. Are you saying there is no other place for the frackers in Bakken fields to connect other than some ONE place only in Montana. Sounds wrong.


Just sayin' :lol: :lol:

Are you really this dense or did you miss the post where I said I was WRONG on Bakkan crude flowing through the proposed phase of the Keystone? How is that deflecting? What more do you want? The Montana info was from reading the info on the State Dept website. It's referred to as the Montana connector. Perhaps there are more connectors - does that change the fact that most of the crude flowing through the new phase of the pipeline would be from the Canada (as YOUR own chart outlines)? In any case, I still believe you should fight fracking, if you so choose, at the source. At this point, I think you're just arguing for argument sake. We're going circles, so you can have the last word on this matter...I'm sure that will make you feel better.

[JustRalph]

Obama is going to find a way to kill this.

[hcap]

That would be "toe". "Tow" is what you do with Obama's baggage.

HTH.Ttou·ché. I checked the spelling before I posted it. Tow is idiomatically accepted and will explain your convoluted conservative lemming-like whining about how independent you claim to be

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Tow+the+line

toe/tow the line
to do what you are ordered or expected to do


Toe is what you put in your mouth before the rest of your foot :rolleyes:

Whereas tow is what you do to lug the John Galt I ambient air powered electrolytically powered vehicle to get to your TeePeer meetings :lol:

[Clocker]

Obama is going to find a way to kill this.

The announcement will be made in the late afternoon of Nov. 26, 2014. That's about 3 weeks after the elections, and is the start of the long Thanksgiving weekend. That gives an appropriate 9 month gestation period for the EPA and the Dept. of Energy to conceive and deliver appropriate studies to justify aborting the project.

[Clocker]

At this point, I think you're just arguing for argument sake. We're going circles, so you can have the last word on this matter.

Congratulations. You have discovered the secret of perpetual motion. :p

[Clocker]

Ah, the EPA and Energy...Goon Squads, to be utilized Chicago-style.

Proof you can pick up some job skills via on the job training as a community organizer.

[hcap]

I could very well be dense, but you are still fudging.....
Are you really this dense or did you miss the post where I said I was WRONG on Bakkan crude flowing through the proposed phase of the Keystone? How is that deflecting? What more do you want? You were wrong until I straightened you out that simply put, you accused me of the mistake you had been making all along. You thought the original Keystone existing phase was what the controversy was all about., and that I was missing that (erroneous) OBVIOUS point. You got short tempered and got pretty irate.

Your apology was NOT for your confusion.between the new XL phase and the original Instead....
Just said I was wrong about Bakkan crude - I wasn't aware of the Montana connector. I just went to the State Dept press release. While the pipeline will carry mostly Canadian tar sands oil, it also mentions a connector in Montana - that would presumably carry "fracked" crude, so I was wrong about that. All that said, the State Dept report focuses on greenhouse gases from the tar sands crude, not sure why you're fixated on the much smaller fracking piece?It is clear to me you still won't fess up and admit you got pissed at me at me for evidently your own lack of understanding of your own WSJ map. The connector is beside the point the molarity of the XL phase runs right through the fracking fields.

[Boris]

Obama is going to find a way to kill this.
It's very simple. Get the price of oil low enough and it will be left in the ground. Problem for Beau Rock is that shale exploration has driven a lot of jobs and government income. That shale money goes down pretty easy.

Beau is just along for the ride on this. He'll keep his distance from the "fractionists".