Utah working on ending homelessness

[jballscalls]

http://www.nationofchange.org/utah-ending-homelessness-giving-people-homes-1390056183

Love seeing this program. Hate the idea of anyone having to live on the streets. I know many people contribute to their own problems, but I don't feel that means they should live in the elements. Seems almost impossible to start over and get on the path to self-sufficiency when you're on the street.

Kudos to the people of Utah!

[Robert Goren]

http://www.nationofchange.org/utah-ending-homelessness-giving-people-homes-1390056183

Love seeing this program. Hate the idea of anyone having to live on the streets. I know many people contribute to their own problems, but I don't feel that means they should live in the elements. Seems almost impossible to start over and get on the path to self-sufficiency when you're on the street.

Kudos to the people of Utah!You are probably right. Sometimes things happen and people who do not substance abuse issues end up on the streets. You can not get a job unless you have clean clothes and someplace to bathe. I hired a guy who quit a job as a programmer to take care of his mother. 6 years later when his mother died, his skills were out of date and he was living at the mission. he was in his late fifties when I hired him as a cashier. Best hire I ever made.

[tucker6]

Thinking out loud, I wonder if this becomes a slippery slope where the state's burden to support this program become much larger as time goes by as these homes require repair, etc. I can also see people moving to Utah to get in on this freebie. It's human nature.

[JustRalph]

Thinking out loud, I wonder if this becomes a slippery slope where the state's burden to support this program become much larger as time goes by as these homes require repair, etc. I can also see people moving to Utah to get in on this freebie. It's human nature.

Unsustainable long term. No incentive to move out of the program.

Creates a permanent underclass.

Rents will go up as owners realize it's a permanent tenant

Neighborhoods .........what happens to those neighborhoods. We've seen it before. It's a housing project.

Patronage reigns when preferred landlords begin to benefit

The list goes on........

[tucker6]

Unsustainable long term. No incentive to move out of the program.

Creates a permanent underclass.

Rents will go up as owners realize it's a permanent tenant

Neighborhoods .........what happens to those neighborhoods. We've seen it before. It's a housing project.

Patronage reigns when preferred landlords begin to benefit

The list goes on........
yep, but let's all feel good that a problem has been solved.

[NJ Stinks]

yep, but let's all feel good that a problem has been solved.


Yea, you guys are right. Better that they are homeless now than have to worry about dealing with possible problems down the line. :rolleyes:

[FantasticDan]

Oh sure, it seems to be working really well for Utah on many levels, but Ralph and tucker6 are just bursting with better ideas. If only Utah had asked them first! :p

[JustRalph]

Oh sure, it seems to be working really well for Utah on many levels, but Ralph and tucker6 are just bursting with better ideas. If only Utah had asked them first! :p

Ever work with chronic homeless? I have.......the worst thing you can do is give them anything. There are exceptions, but they are few. And those are families.

[OntheRail]

Had to have the cheap shot to try and belittle the Party... what a hack.

This happened in a Republican state! Republicans in Congress would probably have required the homeless to take a drug test before getting an apartment, denied apartments to homeless people with criminal records, and evicted those who failed to become self-sufficient after five years or so. But Utah’s results show that even conservative states can solve problems like homelessness with decidedly progressive solutions.
While glossy over...
Earlier this month, Hawaii State representative Tom Bower (D) began walking the streets of his Waikiki district with a sledgehammer, and smashing shopping carts used by homeless people. “Disgusted” by the city’s chronic homelessness problem, Bower decided to take matters into his own hands — literally.

So a Democrat bludgeons property of the weakest folks who can least afford to suffer any other losses with a sledgehammer. I've heard here how Only the Democrats really care for his fellow man... :rolleyes:

It will fail as other states will now be shipping bus loads of homeless to Utah... they should of kept this on the Down-low. The Democrats will slide funding for Busing into some Emergency Bill or another.

[tucker6]

Yea, you guys are right. Better that they are homeless now than have to worry about dealing with possible problems down the line. :rolleyes:
This will end up becoming an entitlement and govt jobs program that will saddle the future generations with the ever rising costs of maintaining it. We all know that, but apparently the only two honest people in this thread are Ralph and myself.

[NJ Stinks]

This will end up becoming an entitlement and govt jobs program that will saddle the future generations with the ever rising costs of maintaining it. We all know that, but apparently the only two honest people in this thread are Ralph and myself.


If you want homeless people off the street, somebody has to pay for it. You want everybody to have healthcare, somebody has to pay for it. You want roads without potholes, somebody has to pay for it.


Funny how that works. :rolleyes:

[TJDave]

the worst thing you can do is give them anything.

I would give them meals. Some customers would complain, said I should feed them in the back. I got new customers.

99.9% of all the chronic homeless are disturbed. They should be in institutions.

[hcap]

Ever work with chronic homeless? I have.......the worst thing you can do is give them anything. There are exceptions, but they are few. And those are families.Remember the old conservative maxim. Go give 'em a fishing pole and rent them a 1 mil polyethylene tent, so when the rivers freeze, all the unfortunate homeless can stop complaining about the weather and go breaking some holes in the ice and go fishing (you will have to teach them TO FISH of course) and maybe at the same time to save some of tax payers hard earned cash--no refrigerator bills--let them store some soda cans and left over fish below so when they awake from a refreshing evening of camping out on the frozen river surface, they have their cans nice and chilled. And fresh fish for an energizing breakfast

You could also rent them ice skates so some additional streams of revenue are created. Don't forget the charcoal briquettes will also also raise a few bucks rather quickly. Buy 'em in bulk and unload those suckers to the poor souls camping out in the bucolic scenic winter wonderland of Jack Frost nipping at their nose, and toes :rolleyes:

[jballscalls]

Ever work with chronic homeless? I have.......the worst thing you can do is give them anything. There are exceptions, but they are few. And those are families.

So what do we do for them? Let em stay on the streets?

I would think giving them at least a chance and having it never work out is better than just ignoring the problem. Surely they aren't going to just get up and get a job if they don't have a regular place to sleep, bathe, groom etc.

And to an above poster, I would think yes it would feel good to help people get homes and not be in the cold. Is that a bad thing?

[JustRalph]

I would give them meals. Some customers would complain, said I should feed them in the back. I got new customers.

99.9% of all the chronic homeless are disturbed. They should be in institutions.

I would say about 85% in my experience

There is a hardcore kind of homeless that is "all there" and they prefer the drugs and alcohol over lodging. They work the system.

It's different region to region. The guys camped on the exit ramp at the 405 and Santa Monica Blvd are completely different than the guys living on hospital drive in Glen Burnie MD. I've dealt with both.

[tucker6]

so none of you social engineers on here can see the fallacy of this program? Here's some questions for the crowd. If the govt has a homeless shelter and they do not come, at what point are they on their own? At what point in your estimation is enough govt spending on this or any issue?? When 100% are off the streets? 90%? 80%? How much spent per homeless person is acceptable for the citizens to carry indefinitely?? Any Amount?? Pick a number and let us know what threshold is too painful. Are there no consequences for behavior in your opinion? Who else should we save from themselves?

[mostpost]

Thinking out loud, I wonder if this becomes a slippery slope where the state's burden to support this program become much larger as time goes by as these homes require repair, etc. I can also see people moving to Utah to get in on this freebie. It's human nature.
These are not houses, they are apartments. I know it says the state is giving them an apartment, but I am pretty sure it means the state is paying the rent on the apartment. Which means the landlord is responsible got maintaining the property. At $11,000 a year, the monthly rent comes out to $916.00 a month. I have a very nice apartment in the Chicago suburbs for less than that.

No one is going to move to Utah to get a free apartment. A person would have to be nuts to think that.

[jballscalls]

. Are there no consequences for behavior in your opinion? Who else should we save from themselves?

Are there no consequences? They're homeless! Those of them who are homeless because of their behavior are living on the streets! Seems like a pretty big consequence.

The problem is, I think some people think that ok, you dig yourself into this hole, you dig yourself out of this hole. I would think it's pretty damn hard to dig yourself out of the homeless hole without some kind of support, be it from family, friends, or the government.

And just like any program there would be massive abuse because they're getting something for free. Gotta work to eliminate that. But i'd sure rather try and help people as opposed to just say "well good luck, pull up your bootstraps!"

[jballscalls]

No one is going to move to Utah to get a free apartment. A person would have to be nuts to think that.

I disagree with you on that. Portland became a destination for young homeless kids because they were treated well here.

As i said above, there will be abuse in any program.

[mostpost]

Unsustainable long term. No incentive to move out of the program.
What about the incentive of self respect? Oh, that's right, you don't think anyone wants to have self respect except you. The program includes a support system to help people find jobs and become paying members of society. It's a lot easier to do that when a person has a permanent address.

Creates a permanent underclass.
WTF do you think being homeless does.

Rents will go up as owners realize it's a permanent tenant.
Have you ever rented long term. Permanent tenants get modest increases in their rent. If and when those tenants leave the rent for those apartments increases dramatically.

Neighborhoods .........what happens to those neighborhoods. We've seen it before. It's a housing project.
Where does it say in the piece that all the apartments are concentrated in one area? More likely they are scattered throughout the city wherever vacant apartments are located.


Patronage reigns when preferred landlords begin to benefit
I can't say that won't happen, but you don't know that steps have not been taken to prevent it.

The list goes on........
The homeless benefit because they get both a home and support in finding a job. Landlords benefit because they get a tenant for a property that may have remained vacant. Taxpayers benefit because instead of paying $16,600 to support homeless people with no chance of changing their status, they are now paying $11,000 for a program which has the potential to return them to productive status.

ETA: It's a statewide program which makes it even less likely that the formerly homeless will be concentrated in one area.

[tucker6]

for this free subsidy, is Utah asking them to perform community service, like cleaning up parks, etc? I mean, they have all this free time, it's the least that the citizens could ask. Or would that hurt their pride too much?

[Racetrack Playa]

Why don't you clean the park,or call your mayor if you think the park needs cleaning. The program sounds really good to me . Whats wrong with you?

[tucker6]

Why don't you clean the park,or call your mayor if you think the park needs cleaning. The program sounds really good to me . Whats wrong with you?
I do clean the park smartass. I also help people who need help. None of that is via taxpayer money but my own money and time. If more people gave, we wouldn't the govt involved. So why don't you get off your ass and contribute something other than more of my money. I hope you get my drift.

[mostpost]

for this free subsidy, is Utah asking them to perform community service, like cleaning up parks, etc? I mean, they have all this free time, it's the least that the citizens could ask. Or would that hurt their pride too much?
What a wonderful idea. That way we can fire all the regular park cleaners and add to the homeless population. Of course when I say wonderful I mean stupid.

[mostpost]

I do clean the park smartass. I also help people who need help. None of that is via taxpayer money but my own money and time. If more people gave, we wouldn't the govt involved. So why don't you get off your ass and contribute something other than more of my money. I hope you get my drift.
No You don't. You are a flat out liar. Picking up a cigarette butt-if you even do that-is not cleaning the park. If you want me to believe you do anything to help anyone you will have to tell me specifically what you do and how that helps people proportionally to what a major government program does.

[Racetrack Playa]

Good for you buddy, you really clean the park and help people. But your government should not? Your drift I do not get. Oh tax money is special, for defense perhaps, what is the drift?

[JustRalph]

Unsustainable long term. No incentive to move out of the program.
What about the incentive of self respect? Oh, that's right, you don't think anyone wants to have self respect except you.

You're an idiot sometimes. When you pop off like this, your show your ass

The program includes a support system to help people find jobs and become paying members of society. It's a lot easier to do that when a person has a permanent address. ***Most of these people don't want jobs!!! Permanent Addresses that most won't want to leave. It's been tried before.

Creates a permanent underclass.
WTF do you think being homeless does.

99% of these homeless are victims of their own decisions. Drugs/Alcohol and making decisions that leave them homeless. It's not an accident. They have been burned through their friends and family multiple times. They rarely change. Everyone of these guys (it's almost always guys) who are chronically homeless have had multiple chances. I've seen the same thing since the early 80's. They think they are victims. They play the role. The exception is those who are mentally unstable (and most of them refuse to go along with any programs/group homes etc) The real difference is families led by a woman. These are often real victims. They have many more outs depending on where they reside. It's a different scenario. They get setup etc in most places and go on welfare etc. Children's services etc step up

Rents will go up as owners realize it's a permanent tenant.
Have you ever rented long term. Permanent tenants get modest increases in their rent. If and when those tenants leave the rent for those apartments increases dramatically.

I have been a renter for the last 7 years. I am also a landlord. Don't try to tell me what happens. I live both sides of it. Take a look at this link, you think rents will creep up or have not increased?
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/09/homeless-shelter-landlords-bet-big-on-de-blasio.html

Neighborhoods .........what happens to those neighborhoods. We've seen it before. It's a housing project.

Where does it say in the piece that all the apartments are concentrated in one area? More likely they are scattered throughout the city wherever vacant apartments are located.

I would guess that the lowest bid gets the money. The tax payers money btw. That means the most vacant place will bid the lowest, but I will give you the point until proven differently.


Patronage reigns when preferred landlords begin to benefit
I can't say that won't happen, but you don't know that steps have not been taken to prevent it. **see the above link

If it's such a good idea, why not take it to the tax payers and let them vote on it? I have been around homeless people in many states. The only ones who I have come to feel sorry for are the mentally deficient. Yet, back in the 80's-90's when homeless courts were established, ACLU style groups defeated them in civil rights cases and removed all incentive to force people into programs. So, what you see is what you get.

This Utah deal will suffer from the same problems these programs have suffered from in other places. But, management will be easier. Considering the lower population. It might take longer to fall apart. But it will. or the tax payers will be forced to continue to support it to save face

[mostpost]

http://www.housingworks.utah.gov/solution/index.html
Above is a link to the actual program.
Despite what the story implies, residency in the program is not guaranteed. The person must maintain the property he lives in to a normal standard, must interact properly with neighbors and property managers and must not break any laws.

Some of the homeless are women who were in abusive situations. Many of those had to return to those situation because they could not find housing for themselves and their children. If they never became self sufficient the program would be worthwhile, but the average time these women spend in the program before being able to pay their own rent is 4.6 months.

Support programs in connection with this program dramatically cut the time required for participants to receive Social Security and other benefits.

[mostpost]

99% of the homeless are victims of their own decisions.
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/who.html
18% of the homeless are children under the age of 18. 42% of those are under the age of 5. What decisions did they make to cause them to be homeless? 23% are families with children.

22% are victims of domestic violence. I guess their decision to not be beaten is the cause of their homelessness.
Veterans comprise 13% of the homeless.
26% of the homeless are mentally ill, but only 5% to 7% of the homeless require institutionalization. The remainder are capable of living productive lives with the proper support system. A proper support system is what the Utah program provides.
38% abuse alcohol while 26% abuse drugs.

Of course some of the homeless fall into more than one of the above categories, but the idea that 99% of the homeless are their because of decisions they made is ludicrous.

[jballscalls]

[url]

Of course some of the homeless fall into more than one of the above categories, but the idea that 99% of the homeless are their because of decisions they made is ludicrous.

And if they are, why does that change anything? We've all done stupid things and made bad decisions. I've always considered myself quite lucky that I didn't end up on the street because of the stupid things I did. I was fortunate, I had mom to bail me out. And then fortunately hit my bottom before things did get that bad.

Many people aren't as lucky.

There seems like such a distain for people who aren't successful or who have screwed up.

[davew]

for this free subsidy, is Utah asking them to perform community service, like cleaning up parks, etc? I mean, they have all this free time, it's the least that the citizens could ask. Or would that hurt their pride too much?

It would take away from their employees who already get paid to do this. I wonder how this is different than Section 8 housing - or is the counseling better than just families and relatives (currently not in jail) hanging out all day trying to figure out how to get more free stuff. I have seen parents, grandparents arguing over who gets to raise kids and living in both Texas and Minnesota, probably getting stuff from both states...

[jballscalls]

It would take away from their employees who already get paid to do this. I wonder how this is different than Section 8 housing - or is the counseling better than just families and relatives (currently not in jail) hanging out all day trying to figure out how to get more free stuff. I have seen parents, grandparents arguing over who gets to raise kids and living in both Texas and Minnesota, probably getting stuff from both states...

I currently work part time through my grad school at a community counseling center. I've yet to meet with a client or family who were trying to figure out how to get free stuff. But it's only been a year, so maybe I just haven't been around long enough.

[mostpost]

I currently work part time through my grad school at a community counseling center. I've yet to meet with a client or family who were trying to figure out how to get free stuff. But it's only been a year, so maybe I just haven't been around long enough.
In looking at other websites and stories on this subject I came across comments that people would give up their homes so they could be homeless and get free housing. Not just one comment like that. Several.

People get upset when I say conservatives are stupid, but how else do you categorize someone who thinks like that? It is incomprehensible.

[jballscalls]

In looking at other websites and stories on this subject I came across comments that people would give up their homes so they could be homeless and get free housing. Not just one comment like that. Several.

People get upset when I say conservatives are stupid, but how else do you categorize someone who thinks like that? It is incomprehensible.

I think that many of the people who say things like that have worked very hard in their life and often have had to struggle to make ends meet. And they resent people who have been given any kind of handout, especially one that is coming from their hard earned money.

I totally get why they feel that way/think that way. I just personally don't have those feelings towards people who are struggling or using the system. I figure they are struggling much worse than I am and I haven't met many genuinely happy welfare recipients. And I'd rather see them have a roof over their head than not, whether they did it to themselves or not.

[HUSKER55]

there are lots of ways around this problem. no politician wants to tackle it.

the environment has to have a value. That said, if anyone thinks the landfills are going to go away,...you are wrong. It is going to take alot of labor.

Alternative enegies and the list goes on.

If I can think of these then surly the rest of you have better ideas on how to get people to work. Blaming the rich, blame conservatives, blame liberals. See the pattern? So how do we first stop the blame game?

[ArlJim78]

What a wonderful idea. That way we can fire all the regular park cleaners and add to the homeless population. Of course when I say wonderful I mean stupid.
You do realize that savings to taxpayers means somebody somewhere along the trough is going to get less.

this program, as you have pointed out, will supposedly save taxpayers a lot of money. Positions would have to be eliminated to realize those savings. If nobody is fired, if no hours are cut, if no spending is cut, then there are no savings.

so on one hand you think its stupid to eliminate park cleanup workers and on the other you love this program which would by necessity eliminate the jobs of some police officers. why do you support park cleanup workers over police officers?

[mostpost]

I think that many of the people who say things like that have worked very hard in their life and often have had to struggle to make ends meet. And they resent people who have been given any kind of handout, especially one that is coming from their hard earned money.

I totally get why they feel that way/think that way. I just personally don't have those feelings towards people who are struggling or using the system. I figure they are struggling much worse than I am and I haven't met many genuinely happy welfare recipients. And I'd rather see them have a roof over their head than not, whether they did it to themselves or not.
I worked hard. You work hard. Millions and millions of people work hard. Yet only some of those people resent it when people who have nothing get a little something.

I don't like it either when people cheat and game the system, but my solution is catch the cheaters. Conservatives solution is throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Robert Goren]

Conservatives like to put themselves in somebody else's shoes, then try to figure out what they would do and assume everybody else would act as they would.

[JustRalph]

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/who.html
18% of the homeless are children under the age of 18. 42% of those are under the age of 5. What decisions did they make to cause them to be homeless? 23% are families with children.

22% are victims of domestic violence. I guess their decision to not be beaten is the cause of their homelessness.
Veterans comprise 13% of the homeless.
26% of the homeless are mentally ill, but only 5% to 7% of the homeless require institutionalization. The remainder are capable of living productive lives with the proper support system. A proper support system is what the Utah program provides.
38% abuse alcohol while 26% abuse drugs.

Of course some of the homeless fall into more than one of the above categories, but the idea that 99% of the homeless are their because of decisions they made is ludicrous.

You forget my mention of most being men. I said families are different. You believe your bullshit numbers. You can put all the labels you want on people. I'll stick with the literally several hundred homeless people I encountered over the last 30 years. I made exceptions for families in my comments. Did I not?

Whether contacting them on the street as a police officer in SoCal or Ohio, working with homeless shelters in Charlotte while employed by the Charlotte PD, or capturing them stealing office equipment and medical supplies from the hospital in Glen Burnie MD, I am very familiar with this problem. I said homeless families are different. And they are. But the chronic homeless are almost always men with few exceptions. The chronic homeless females I've encountered fit several categories. Almost always "drug addict" or "prostitute" and most often "homeless drug addict prostitute" for the trifecta of why my life's ****ed up.

Btw, I've met many homeless Vets who were no different from the others. In fact many of them were worse than the others. They love to lead off a conversation reminding you that they are a homeless vet and they are different than "other homeless" a whole new category of homeless knows how to take advantage of being a vet. I wonder how that happen?

I stand by my comments. The Utah program? Good for them! I hope they save every single homeless person in the state. It's not my money. But it will most assuredly be wasted money in the majority of the cases.

Take it to the tax payers who are paying for it and get it approved, if it works so well?

[JustRalph]

Conservatives like to put themselves in somebody else's shoes, then try to figure out what they would do and assume everybody else would act as they would.

No, conservatives demand accountability and expect rational cooperation and a law abiding manner by those who need help. You know, the basics of our society? But the entitlement attitude that pervades every walk of American life today, is fostered and rewarded over and over again to the point that people give up normal values and expect to be babied, coddled and rewarded for failures.

The kids who we started giving trophies to for coming in last place still expect that trophy in the big game of life. Add in a compliant medical community and a million new drugs to alter personalities and suddenly nobody is at fault for anything they do. Wrap it all up with a ribbon and toss in a FREE FINANCING and everybody is going to be successful. And even when they're not, the lawyers will give them a get out of jail free card in the form of probation/diversion or bankruptcy. Take your pick!

And don't forget to vote Democrat! Keep the freebies coming!! I don't expect anybody to act any way except what is considered right and moral Under the circumstances. We can argue those points, but what's right and moral in most situations is pretty easy to see.

[JustRalph]

So what do we do for them? Let em stay on the streets?

I would think giving them at least a chance and having it never work out is better than just ignoring the problem.

Surely they aren't going to just get up and get a job if they don't have a regular place to sleep, bathe, groom etc.

And to an above poster, I would think yes it would feel good to help people get homes and not be in the cold. Is that a bad thing?

This kind of reasoning is why you have places like this

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Life-at-the-bottom-S-F-s-Sunnydale-project-3228433.php

I urge you to read it, the whole damn thing. Giving them a chance and having it never work out is why we have squandered 16 trillion dollars in the "War on Poverty"

There is more. Google "sunnydale sfgate"

[Ocala Mike]

Not about homelessness, per se, but somewhat apropos to the discussion:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/27/opinion/sutter-woody-guthrie-inequality/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7

Especially timely, since the iconic Pete Seeger passed away at the age of 94 yesterday.

[jballscalls]

This kind of reasoning is why you have places like this

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Life-at-the-bottom-S-F-s-Sunnydale-project-3228433.php

I urge you to read it, the whole damn thing. Giving them a chance and having it never work out is why we have squandered 16 trillion dollars in the "War on Poverty"

There is more. Google "sunnydale sfgate"

Again I ask though Ralph, what do you do? Let them sit on the street?

[davew]

I worked hard. You work hard. Millions and millions of people work hard. Yet only some of those people resent it when people who have nothing get a little something.

I don't like it either when people cheat and game the system, but my solution is catch the cheaters. Conservatives solution is throw the baby out with the bath water.

The current administration loves cheaters, and has many of their own. The people who are caught, get promotions and transfers.

What woiuld your solution be once you have 'caught the cheaters'?

[JustRalph]

Again I ask though Ralph, what do you do? Let them sit on the street?

If they so choose.........they are doing that anyway

[PaceAdvantage]

There seems like such a distain for people who aren't successful or who have screwed up.And there seems to be an ignorance of the reality of the situation by those who think something like this is going to solve the problem of homelessness.

[Clocker]

And there seems to be an ignorance of the reality of the situation by those who think something like this is going to solve the problem of homelessness.

And an assumption (or deflection) that anyone who criticizes this plan is totally devoid of feeling about the problem. Just as those opposed to ObamaCare are labeled as being opposed to healthcare for the poor.

[hcap]

And an assumption (or deflection) that anyone who criticizes this plan is totally devoid of feeling about the problem. Just as those opposed to ObamaCare are labeled as being opposed to healthcare for the poor.We can argue forever the causes of homelessness, but the immediate problem is getting them cared for this winter. We can also argue forever whether or not this winter proves or disproves the realities of AGW, but the fact is people have to get in out of the bitter cold.

[tucker6]

We can argue forever the causes of homelessness, but the immediate problem is getting them cared for this winter. We can also argue forever whether or not this winter proves or disproves the realities of AGW, but the fact is people have to get in out of the bitter cold.
This whole subject is attacking a symptom and not the problem. NEWSFLASH: You don't end homelessness by providing a home. You'll diminish it (you'll never end it) by attacking the root causes. Unfortunately, those root causes are hard to overcome ( a lot of personal demons) and so govt has decided to gloss over the hard work and make every bleeding heart liberal feel good that they are helping these poor people out. This program in Utah is a sick joke to me. Utah should be trying to get citizens to fund charities focused on the issues surrounding the reasons for homeless and not pass laws detrimental to this issue. For example, many states have begun to eliminate state hospitals for the mentally ill. Many of these patients are now on the streets. How is that helping the situation. As I said, this is more govt intrusion using a broad brush where private charities focused on the issues would better serve these people. But you all feel good today that Utah solved a problem even though they only exacerbated it.

[Robert Goren]

No, conservatives demand accountability and expect rational cooperation and a law abiding manner by those who need help. You know, the basics of our society? But the entitlement attitude that pervades every walk of American life today, is fostered and rewarded over and over again to the point that people give up normal values and expect to be babied, coddled and rewarded for failures.

The kids who we started giving trophies to for coming in last place still expect that trophy in the big game of life. Add in a compliant medical community and a million new drugs to alter personalities and suddenly nobody is at fault for anything they do. Wrap it all up with a ribbon and toss in a FREE FINANCING and everybody is going to be successful. And even when they're not, the lawyers will give them a get out of jail free card in the form of probation/diversion or bankruptcy. Take your pick!

And don't forget to vote Democrat! Keep the freebies coming!! I don't expect anybody to act any way except what is considered right and moral Under the circumstances. We can argue those points, but what's right and moral in most situations is pretty easy to see.I'll believe that when they start demanding the same accountability from banks that they demand from welfare recipients.

[Robert Goren]

This whole subject is attacking a symptom and not the problem. NEWSFLASH: You don't end homelessness by providing a home. You'll diminish it (you'll never end it) by attacking the root causes. Unfortunately, those root causes are hard to overcome ( a lot of personal demons) and so govt has decided to gloss over the hard work and make every bleeding heart liberal feel good that they are helping these poor people out. This program in Utah is a sick joke to me. Utah should be trying to get citizens to fund charities focused on the issues surrounding the reasons for homeless and not pass laws detrimental to this issue. For example, many states have begun to eliminate state hospitals for the mentally ill. Many of these patients are now on the streets. How is that helping the situation. As I said, this is more govt intrusion using a broad brush where private charities focused on the issues would better serve these people. But you all feel good today that Utah solved a problem even though they only exacerbated it.Hello, yes you do. You don't solve the other problems the person has, but you do get him or her out of the elements.
All states started closing mental hospitals in the 1970s. Those people have been on the streets for over 30 years. It was done to save money. The states said it would be better if local communities took over care. Almost no local community did because of money issues.

[PaceAdvantage]

We can argue forever the causes of homelessness, but the immediate problem is getting them cared for this winter. We can also argue forever whether or not this winter proves or disproves the realities of AGW, but the fact is people have to get in out of the bitter cold.Since when did we abandon the concept of shelters for the homeless in times of inclement weather?

[PaceAdvantage]

Hello, yes you do. You don't solve the other problems the person has, but you do get him or her out of the elements.
All states started closing mental hospitals in the 1970s. Those people have been on the streets for over 30 years. It was done to save money. The states said it would be better if local communities took over care. Almost no local community did because of money issues.
Again, did Utah do away with temporary shelters for the homeless during extreme heat and cold? I thought those were commonplace across the country in spots where homelessness tends to be common.

Maybe it's just a NY thing.

[tucker6]

Hello, yes you do. You don't solve the other problems the person has, but you do get him or her out of the elements.
All states started closing mental hospitals in the 1970s. Those people have been on the streets for over 30 years. It was done to save money. The states said it would be better if local communities took over care. Almost no local community did because of money issues.
No you don't end homelessness with homes!! It sounds counterintuitive, but if you put your thinking cap on, it really isn't.

As to your assertion that ALL states started closing mental hospitals in the 1970's, that simply isn't true. In PA, it didn't begin until the 90's. The real problem started in the last 15 years when the last of the hospitals started closing and the "dregs" that were shipped from hospital to hospital in prior closings were finally released to society. 99% of these people are completely incapable of growing into something you or I would call a good citizen. So all your precious govt did was go from paying for them to be institutionalized to paying for them to be housed in an uncontrolled atmosphere. And you wonder why we have mass murders.

[Robert Goren]

It has been a slow process and some state moved faster than others. In Nebraska, we have been down to short term commitments and extremely violent highly likely to act people since the mid 80s.
As parking lot manager, I had to deal with far too many homeless just looking for place to crash. When the government fails to provide shelter, businesses end up provide it even though they don't want to. Keeping off them your premises requires effort and costs. When the government fails to act, the homeless do not disappear. They become a problem for businesses. A problem that no business wants to deal with.

[jballscalls]

And there seems to be an ignorance of the reality of the situation by those who think something like this is going to solve the problem of homelessness.

We have different opinions. Mine is ignorant.

[PaceAdvantage]

We have different opinions. Mine is ignorant.Yours seems to be based entirely on the feel-good aspect of providing help without looking at the big picture effect this sort of policy has brought with it in the past.

If you don't cure the underlying cause of the homelessness, simply providing them handouts isn't going to cure the problem. Sure it will make you feel good that they are getting short term relief...but why don't we ever focus on long term solutions?

[JustRalph]

Yours seems to be based entirely on the feel-good aspect of providing help without looking at the big picture effect this sort of policy has brought with it in the past.

If you don't cure the underlying cause of the homelessness, simply providing them handouts isn't going to cure the problem. Sure it will make you feel good that they are getting short term relief...but why don't we ever focus on long term solutions?

The more you give, the more they take becomes a factor very quickly.

It's been tried before with some success, but only in places where the population of homeless is very small which allows for very personal interaction between those providing services and those receiving them.

[Grits]

Yours seems to be based entirely on the feel-good aspect of providing help without looking at the big picture effect this sort of policy has brought with it in the past.

If you don't cure the underlying cause of the homelessness, simply providing them handouts isn't going to cure the problem. Sure it will make you feel good that they are getting short term relief...but why don't we ever focus on long term solutions?

Maybe you missed 60 Minutes Sunday night.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mentally-ill-youth-in-crisis/

There are many on the streets like him. Though, this young man was not homeless, his father's a senator, but he chose to sleep in his father's barn, then attempted to murder him the next morning before killing himself. This happened after years and years of he and his family coping with his mental illness. After being turned away from the hospital for lack of a bed, or sent home--with nothing more than, "sorry, if we keep him, insurance will only pay for 6 hours."

One can wish there was as simple a solution as you state in regard to a cure. Not all mental illness is curable--it simply IS NOT. And we have failed, miserably, in our community based care for these individuals. In the piece, one will learn of the astronomical amount of funds that have been cut for those with mental illness and developmental disabilities.

We can throw all the money at research we want--for cancer, diabetes, heart disease, kidney disease, lung disease, erectile dysfunction, etc. But if one has a disease of the brain--the dominating organ of one's body....sorry, one's screwed.

Bottom line. Talk's easy. What would you do if this had been your son?

[Racetrack Playa]

"Homeless children at record high in US. Can the trend be reversed?" (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2011/1213/Homeless-children-at-record-high-in-US.-Can-the-trend-be-reversed) Christian Science Monitor, December 13, 2011

[PaceAdvantage]

One can wish there was as simple a solution as you state in regard to a cure.I don't think I stated there was a simple solution. All I stated was that I want us to focus on the long term solution, not temporary short term solutions that do nothing but create more dependence.