NHC

[cnollfan]

Any paceadvantage posters in the NHC? I finished in 419th place.

[ManU918]

Unless they fix the structure I will never play in nor even attempt to play in the NHC again. How the last race unfolded was absolutely disgusting. What genius at the NHC decided that posting the players plays was a good idea? Posting them after the race goes off is one thing but prior to the race is ludicrous.

The 1 in the last race at Santa Anita who was the only longshot horse who could have beaten Arias goes into the gate at 8-1... If he wins at 8-1 Brice catches Arias. Midway through the race the horse clicks down to 6-1, wins the race and Arias holds on by $1.20 to beat Brice. A lot of talk on Twitter about this. Supposedly Arias or someone within his camp placed a $10,000 wager on the 1 to alter the odds. Did the NHC really think if it was going to come down to a couple of dollars at the end with 1 race left that this sort of thing wasn't going to happen?

[Stillriledup]

Unless they fix the structure I will never play in nor even attempt to play in the NHC again. How the last race unfolded was absolutely disgusting. What genius at the NHC decided that posting the players plays was a good idea? Posting them after the race goes off is one thing but prior to the race is ludicrous.

The 1 in the last race at Santa Anita who was the only longshot horse who could have beaten Arias goes into the gate at 8-1... If he wins at 8-1 Brice catches Arias. Midway through the race the horse clicks down to 6-1, wins the race and Arias holds on by $1.20 to beat Brice. A lot of talk on Twitter about this. Supposedly Arias or someone within his camp placed a $10,000 wager on the 1 to alter the odds. Did the NHC really think if it was going to come down to a couple of dollars at the end with 1 race left that this sort of thing wasn't going to happen?

Winner ended up with 29,777 on him to win.

[ManU918]

Winner ended up with 29,777 on him to win.

Whats your point?

[Stillriledup]

Whats your point?

Not sure the math supports a 10k wager in the final seconds of the wagering.

[sammy the sage]

Not sure the math supports a 10k wager in the final seconds of the wagering.

yeah....took a LOT LESS than 10k to MOVE that down...which in reality WAS his point ORIGINALLY.... :faint:

[stuball]

I was watching the video reports Sunday to follow the progress....It was
horrible coverage was terrible and video when it was on was grade school
quality with peter whats his name's microphone not working most of the time
I can not believe it was so bad....I thought the format was changed to
allow for a tv experience like poker...I could find nowhere to access it...was
there and was it on..? It's too bad it could be a special experience if some
thought and preparation was put into the production....oh well another
disaster from the execs in charge of racing...

Stuball :mad: :mad: :mad: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[cj]

yeah....took a LOT LESS than 10k to MOVE that down...which in reality WAS his point ORIGINALLY.... :faint:

I have no idea if the guy actually had that bet made, but IF he did, these are the approximate payouts for the horse if the bet was made, and if smaller bets were made:

10k: 15.60
9k: 16.20
8k: 16.80 (would have tied)
7k: 17.40 (would have lost)

So I'd say if it was done, it was figured out just about perfectly with a little margin for error or other late bets.

Guess the other guy should have countered with a 25k bet on the favorite to drive his price up enough to win.

Just kidding, somewhat, but announcing the selections five minutes before the race was a very dumb idea. It is a parimutuel game, and anyone with any foresight at all should have seen this was possible, even if it didn't get exploited.

[Robert Goren]

You have to give up secrecy if you are going turn Horse Race Betting into a spectator sport. The fans need to know who is on who while the race is being run and a fair idea of the ramifications are.

[outofthebox]

Finished 57 missing by $2 on the final race saturday from GG.The mc was announcing the players selections @1 min to post. Quick thinking on the leaders part if they did knock the#1 down late.

[cj]

You have to give up secrecy if you are going turn Horse Race Betting into a spectator sport. The fans need to know who is on who while the race is being run and a fair idea of the ramifications are.

Just like they show the hole cards in poker when they are on air live? Oh wait, they don't.

[Robert Goren]

Just like they show the hole cards in poker when they are on air live? Oh wait, they don't.They don't show poker games live and still get an audience. Do you think horse racing can pull that off? I am not even sure there is an audience even they show it live. Maybe there is more of market if it is shown taped. (Poker is better taped) But live or taped, the fan has to know what is going on in order to have any interest. I will say this. To me, watching bettors is more interesting than watching a race that I don't have bet down on. I hope horse racing moves in the direction of showing bettors more.

[aaron]

They don't show poker games live and still get an audience. Do you think horse racing can pull that off? I am not even sure there is an audience even they show it live. Maybe there is more of market if it is shown taped. (Poker is better taped) But live or taped, the fan has to know what is going on in order to have any interest. I will say this. To me, watching bettors is more interesting than watching a race that I don't have bet down on. I hope horse racing moves in the direction of showing bettors more.
I think you have it right. For a show on horse racing to be interesting you have to have players that people like or care about. In poker,I used to like watching Doyle Brunson play. I haven't played poker in years,but because of the players,I found the show interesting.The interaction and respect showed Brunson by the younger players was a great dynamic. Also,the show was much better taped because live,all you would see is for the most part players folding their hands.If a horse racing show had Beyer and some other known players it would probably be more interesting.

[NTamm1215]

They don't show poker games live and still get an audience. Do you think horse racing can pull that off? I am not even sure there is an audience even they show it live. Maybe there is more of market if it is shown taped. (Poker is better taped) But live or taped, the fan has to know what is going on in order to have any interest. I will say this. To me, watching bettors is more interesting than watching a race that I don't have bet down on. I hope horse racing moves in the direction of showing bettors more.

Wrong. The "November Nine" at the final table was shown live this year and fans were kept completely in the dark about hole cards. Viewership of the WSOP has dropped off considerably since the boom earlier this century. While it is more popular than it was prior to the Chris Moneymaker boom of 2003, it is hardly something after which racing should be modeling its supposed signature tournament.

[classhandicapper]

I think you have it right. For a show on horse racing to be interesting you have to have players that people like or care about. In poker,I used to like watching Doyle Brunson play. I haven't played poker in years,but because of the players,I found the show interesting.The interaction and respect showed Brunson by the younger players was a great dynamic. Also,the show was much better taped because live,all you would see is for the most part players folding their hands.If a horse racing show had Beyer and some other known players it would probably be more interesting.

I agree with this.

During the poker boom there were "x" number of players that became household names and others that were slowly added to the mix. It was fun to watch because you knew the personalities, their playing style, they knew each other well and interacted that way etc...

When they just had 10 strangers on the table, I couldn't watch. It was too boring.

Racing would have to start with the biggest names and slowly add new faces to the mix to create new stars. Taped, they could also focus the most attention on the most entertaining races. No one is going to want to watch everyone ripping up tickets over and over.

[Light]

I was watching the video reports Sunday to follow the progress....It was
horrible coverage was terrible and video when it was on was grade school
quality with peter whats his name's microphone not working most of the time
I can not believe it was so bad....I thought the format was changed to
allow for a tv experience like poker...I could find nowhere to access it...was
there and was it on..? It's too bad it could be a special experience if some
thought and preparation was put into the production....oh well another
disaster from the execs in charge of racing...

Stuball :mad: :mad: :mad: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Agree. The stupidity of this industry is staggering.

[cnollfan]

I have no idea if the guy actually had that bet made, but IF he did, these are the approximate payouts for the horse if the bet was made, and if smaller bets were made:

10k: 15.60
9k: 16.20
8k: 16.80 (would have tied)
7k: 17.40 (would have lost)

So I'd say if it was done, it was figured out just about perfectly with a little margin for error or other late bets.

Guess the other guy should have countered with a 25k bet on the favorite to drive his price up enough to win.

Just kidding, somewhat, but announcing the selections five minutes before the race was a very dumb idea. It is a parimutuel game, and anyone with any foresight at all should have seen this was possible, even if it didn't get exploited.

While it is conceivable that the system could have been exploited, I think it was highly unlikely. In reality, the bets were not announced five minutes to post time. As they read through the final bets, some of them were not announced until the horses were actually entering the gate.
And it wasn't just the second-place finisher who could have caught Arias, although his odds did click down late. By the way, how many other threads are there, not related to the NHC contest, about late odds changes? Alpino, who was third just $4.10 behind Arias, picked 5-1 shot Broker Brett. Arias couldn't have bet enough on that horse to protect. Other players in contention had 70-1 shot Ithoughtipaidyou, 26-1 shot Causewere Gamblers, 8-1 shot Mary Helen's Storm, 4-1 shot Warren's Tyler S, and 48-1 shot Minister of Trade. All of them except Warren's Tyler S could have caught Arias with a win. Are "his people" supposed to bet thousands of dollars to win on them all seconds before the race starts? Or are they sharp enough handicappers to know that the only horse they are afraid of is O'Neill's class cratering Fit To Rule, who didn't make it to the finish line in two of his last six races? They couldn't have done it in the tournament room at TI, that's for sure -- it took about a minute for some of the tellers to place normal bets like $20 to win on a horse and a $2 exacta part-wheel.

I was opposed to the new format until I saw it in action, but I thought it added a lot of excitement to the last race in the contest, knowing who was alive to which horse. I suppose that to protect, they can be even more careful to announce the players' horses just seconds before the race starts, or instead of reading the picks off # 1 through 10 as they did read them off backwards so that the farthest out of contention pick is announced first and the leader's pick announced last.

[LAP_520]

Found this....

"Nhc format must keep choices hidden nxt yr to prevnt finalists from phoning in a 10k bet to alter odds of opponents. @DRFSteven_Crist @NTRA"

[cutchemist42]

Based off the complaints and what I've read, what would be so bad about just announcing the picks once the horses are in the gate? People know whats at stake then with a 0% chance of manipulation.

[OTM Al]

Found this....

"Nhc format must keep choices hidden nxt yr to prevnt finalists from phoning in a 10k bet to alter odds of opponents. @DRFSteven_Crist @NTRA"

So is he saying it happened or they need to change things so it can't happen. Seems to me that the contestants didn't know this would occur so it would have taken some incredibly quick last second coordination to make this happen.

[cj]

So is he saying it happened or they need to change things so it can't happen. Seems to me that the contestants didn't know this would occur so it would have taken some incredibly quick last second coordination to make this happen.

He is saying the latter.

I don't think it would have been as tough as you think with somebody on the outside monitoring pool size and odds of the last race. They'd already have the standings. A simple text with a selection number in it and the bet could be placed in seconds if prepared ahead of time.

[burnsy]

Congrats to the people that made it. But the number one rule of any gambling game is that it is fair and beyond manipulation. Geez, when will horse racing figure this out? The number 1 accusation of non-horseplayers is that the game is rigged. Even the horseplayers themselves are a very skeptical group.....sometimes there is good reason to be too. So why in Gods good name would you make a format like this? For cameras? From what other people posted here, you couldn't see or hear shit anyway. So to "juice" the game up you sacrifice integrity....when people constantly question that already? I don't know what happened, I don't care what happened. Maybe nothing happened. But if people can figure out a way to gain an unfair advantage...it looks bad either way. Especially with these high stakes at the end.....un-freakin-real :bang: Lets make the contest more exciting... with the fall out, disgust and accusations, it's worth it....people only try all year to enter :ThmbDown:

[cnollfan]

Found this....

"Nhc format must keep choices hidden nxt yr to prevnt finalists from phoning in a 10k bet to alter odds of opponents. @DRFSteven_Crist @NTRA"

FWIW this was not a tweet by Steven Crist himself but instead by tournament participant Christian Hellmers.

[burnsy]

While it is conceivable that the system could have been exploited, I think it was highly unlikely.

good job getting in but I think you miss the point,,,anyway conceivable is not good, it doesn't matter whose tweet it was either. If ANYONE can sit there and legitimately point to ways of "manipulation", its bad for the entire contest...period. That people can even post ways to do it....its bad. That's not right.

[FiveWide]

I'm not going to be so harsh on the NHC and it's new format. It seems to me they changed the format to make things more interesting and possibility of TV coverage somewhere down the road. Did things go smoothly and perfectly? No. Sometimes things like this take dry runs to work out the kinks. If TV coverage is a future goal of theirs then I'd consider this a dry run. Do a couple dry runs to polish things before airing it on TV. In this respect I believe they succeeded. Yes they have things to work on. We'll have to stay tuned next year to see what happens next.


-Five

[burnsy]

People are amazing. They are more worried about the coverage than the visual integrity of the game itself. You have participants bitching. People on here doing the math and showing you how people can basically cheat. If people can figure it out....others will actually do it. They've already caught people rigging the pic 6 on BREEDERS CUP DAY. I'm sorry the rules have to be airtight, TV or not. Otherwise people will cheat, the first time they catch them..all your aspirations of TV coverage go down the toilet. Unless you like being on 60 minutes for the "great tournament scam." There's got to be rules so no one can KNOW how to game the game, that simple. Crap, I can make a bet in about 20 seconds if that. You can't make public the plays until no bets can be made..that easy.

[Cratos]

People are amazing. They are more worried about the coverage than the visual integrity of the game itself. You have participants bitching. People on here doing the math and showing you how people can basically cheat. If people can figure it out....others will actually do it. They've already caught people rigging the pic 6 on BREEDERS CUP DAY. I'm sorry the rules have to be airtight, TV or not. Otherwise people will cheat, the first time they catch them..all your aspirations of TV coverage go down the toilet. Unless you like being on 60 minutes for the "great tournament scam." There's got to be rules so no one can KNOW how to game the game, that simple. Crap, I can make a bet in about 20 seconds if that. You can't make public the plays until no bets can be made..that easy.

Please show mathematically or statistically how this can be done by example. I realize that theoretically it can be done, but can it be done practically and expeditiously in the “heat” of a tournament?

In small betting pools manipulation is easier, but there is also the risk factor. Although the payoff to the winner is large, there is no guarantee that the manipulation will work and we talking about thousands of dollars to get the job done.

[Stillriledup]

I was watching the video reports Sunday to follow the progress....It was
horrible coverage was terrible and video when it was on was grade school
quality with peter whats his name's microphone not working most of the time
I can not believe it was so bad....I thought the format was changed to
allow for a tv experience like poker...I could find nowhere to access it...was
there and was it on..? It's too bad it could be a special experience if some
thought and preparation was put into the production....oh well another
disaster from the execs in charge of racing...

Stuball :mad: :mad: :mad: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Similar complaints in 2007 (see link below)

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42479&highlight=ntra+contest

[ronsmac]

People are amazing. They are more worried about the coverage than the visual integrity of the game itself. You have participants bitching. People on here doing the math and showing you how people can basically cheat. If people can figure it out....others will actually do it. They've already caught people rigging the pic 6 on BREEDERS CUP DAY. I'm sorry the rules have to be airtight, TV or not. Otherwise people will cheat, the first time they catch them..all your aspirations of TV coverage go down the toilet. Unless you like being on 60 minutes for the "great tournament scam." There's got to be rules so no one can KNOW how to game the game, that simple. Crap, I can make a bet in about 20 seconds if that. You can't make public the plays until no bets can be made..that easy.
What you just said should be obvious to everyone here.

[FiveWide]

People are amazing. They are more worried about the coverage than the visual integrity of the game itself. You have participants bitching. People on here doing the math and showing you how people can basically cheat. If people can figure it out....others will actually do it. They've already caught people rigging the pic 6 on BREEDERS CUP DAY. I'm sorry the rules have to be airtight, TV or not. Otherwise people will cheat, the first time they catch them..all your aspirations of TV coverage go down the toilet. Unless you like being on 60 minutes for the "great tournament scam." There's got to be rules so no one can KNOW how to game the game, that simple. Crap, I can make a bet in about 20 seconds if that. You can't make public the plays until no bets can be made..that easy.

I'm not worried one way or another. I was just pointing out a possible scenario. I was guestimating that they might have a future goal of TV coverage. I'm sure there is cheating everyday in the game and I don't believe it's viewed by the general public as a game of integrity so maybe their chance of TV coverage was shot years or even decades ago.

I believe cnollfan summed it up beautifully in post #17. What are the cheaters going to do. Place money on ALL the possible picks that could overtake him/her.

-Five

[Cratos]

I'm not worried one way or another. I was just pointing out a possible scenario. I was guestimating that they might have a future goal of TV coverage. I'm sure there is cheating everyday in the game and I don't believe it's viewed by the general public as a game of integrity so maybe their chance of TV coverage was shot years or even decades ago.

I believe cnollfan summed it up beautifully in post #17. What are the cheaters going to do. Place money on ALL the possible picks that could overtake him/her.

-Five

Good insightful post

[cj]

If you did it right, this would take the time it takes to send a text and send a bet, or in other words no more than 10-15 seconds. Some are acting like this is complex math, but it isn't, not even close. Just needed some foresight, the inner workings wouldn't be very tough.

There is actually a pretty simple solution. Just coordinate with the track to close the pool for one race before loading. Being the last race could be used for publicity by the track. Give time to announce the picks to all before the gate is sprung...simple. I can't believe a race track wouldn't help out if asked.

[OTM Al]

If you did it right, this would take the time it takes to send a text and send a bet, or in other words no more than 10-15 seconds. Some are acting like this is complex math, but it isn't, not even close. Just needed some foresight, the inner workings wouldn't be very tough.


If you knew they were going to announce the bets and had it set up in advance. This to me is the relevant point here as if it wasn't set up and ready to roll your 10-15 seconds become a couple minutes and then it won't work.

[cj]

If you knew they were going to announce the bets and had it set up in advance. This to me is the relevant point here as if it wasn't set up and ready to roll your 10-15 seconds become a couple minutes and then it won't work.

True. I think it was known, but I could be wrong.

[jdhanover]

Based on everything here, the math seems to me such that it is unlikley Arias's camp bet hard at the end to secure his win.

However, such manipulation could easily happen in the last race of a future tournament....especially if two guys separated themselves from the pack.

I think that all they need to do is not announce picks on the last race until the gate opens. Unless there are 4 or more guys within a few $$ in which case it would be awfully hard for someone to get the math right and place perfect late bets.

[cj]

Based on everything here, the math seems to me such that it is unlikley Arias's camp bet hard at the end to secure his win.

However, such manipulation could easily happen in the last race of a future tournament....especially if two guys separated themselves from the pack.

I think that all they need to do is not announce picks on the last race until the gate opens. Unless there are 4 or more guys within a few $$ in which case it would be awfully hard for someone to get the math right and place perfect late bets.

It is unlikely, but not because of the math. Why do people keep saying that? The winner received 750,000, you didn't have to be THAT precise.

The reason for announcing was to add excitement during the race. If you announce once they are off, they race would be over before people could process the picks and and translate it to what they are watching.

I just see no reason a track wouldn't agree to close a pool for one race one time a year for the last race of the contest. That way everyone can see the odds and the totals could be tabulated before the off time. In this sport though, tough to take any form of cooperation for granted.

[Stillriledup]

It is unlikely, but not because of the math. Why do people keep saying that? The winner received 750,000, you didn't have to be THAT precise.

The reason for announcing was to add excitement during the race. If you announce once they are off, they race would be over before people could process the picks and and translate it to what they are watching.

I just see no reason a track wouldn't agree to close a pool for one race one time a year for the last race of the contest. That way everyone can see the odds and the totals could be tabulated before the off time. In this sport though, tough to take any form of cooperation for granted.

People are investing real money into the final 6 races at Santa Anita (which would be the final race due to being west coast almost every year in this contest if they keep the same format) SA has a HUGE pick 4 pool and sometimes a 3 million dollar pick 6 pool (seems like the norm these days) i dont think its fair to the people who could 'care less" about some tournament in las vegas, people might need to be hedging their own 'life changing score' and want or need to see the horses loading in order to make hedge bets on their own massive payouts.

[cj]

People are investing real money into the final 6 races at Santa Anita (which would be the final race due to being west coast almost every year in this contest if they keep the same format) SA has a HUGE pick 4 pool and sometimes a 3 million dollar pick 6 pool (seems like the norm these days) i dont think its fair to the people who could 'care less" about some tournament in las vegas, people might need to be hedging their own 'life changing score' and want or need to see the horses loading in order to make hedge bets on their own massive payouts.

Such a drama queen...it is one race where it would be well publicized that betting would stop early. It would be good for the sport overall if the contest was made into a bigger deal.

[Ray]

They will never ever stop betting early for a contest impossible there is no incentive and honestly the audience is so small it has no impact.

[Ray]

Here is an interesting view of changing odds in the final race



MONDAY, JANUARY 27, 2014
Trying to Make Sense of the Final Chaotic Moments at NHC15
We may never know the truth of what transpired in the final moments leading up to the 9th Race at Santa Anita, which was the final mandatory race of NHC15. It certainly opened up the possibility of contest manipulation or at the very least hedging, whichever way you view such a strategy. The difference between the winner's share and runner-up's was $550,000 ($750k to the winner, 200k to runner-up) The NTRA opened up this possibility by exposing players selections with 1 minute to post while pari-mutuel pools were still open. Here is what we know at this point


http://qracing.blogspot.com/?m=1

[Al Gobbi]

I wonder what the reaction would have been if the last contest race was from Golden Gate (with much smaller pools) instead of Santa Anita?

[burnsy]

What you just said should be obvious to everyone here.

I know, but people have these "fantasies" that this tournament will boost the game if its televised and maybe it would help. But if people sit there the next day pointing out ways to gain advantage, in any way at all. Its not good for any tournament. They could be playing cribbage would not matter. No, people won't bet down every horse but they do handicap the race,,,,is that not the objective? These people are pretty sharp too, or they would not be on the leader board in a game like this. They can look at other peoples selections and figure out which couple of "other" contenders that could upset the apple cart and hedge. You most likely would not have to bet on all of them especially the 48-1. You guys are trying to convince people that they don't know whose 6-1 to 10-1 and those are the ones people will load up on. Don't give people that "heat of the tournament" crap....when someone could have their buddy a text message away. Seems unlikely? Does not matter. If people even get a whiff that this could happen.....you're rules are crap. If someone can even point to a "half" viable loop hole...the integrity sucks. You are right too...how can this NOT be obvious. Besides, the technology could flash the selections the moment the bell rings and not a second before.

[delayjf]

Couldn't they simply not announce the contest wagers until literally right after the last horse loads?

[Charli125]

They will never ever stop betting early for a contest impossible there is no incentive and honestly the audience is so small it has no impact.

They were the exclusive track for the final table at the NHC. That has to count for something.

[cnollfan]

They were the exclusive track for the final table at the NHC. That has to count for something.

The final table races included two from Gulfstream, one from Fair Grounds, and two from Santa Anita.

[Charli125]

The final table races included two from Gulfstream, one from Fair Grounds, and two from Santa Anita.

Gotcha, I thought it was all Santa Anita. Agreed then, no way they'll close the pools early. Not saying they shouldn't, but they won't.

[PaceAdvantage]

He is saying the latter.

I don't think it would have been as tough as you think with somebody on the outside monitoring pool size and odds of the last race. They'd already have the standings. A simple text with a selection number in it and the bet could be placed in seconds if prepared ahead of time.I agree. Those downplaying this as something highly unlikely to happen are ignoring reality.

LOTS of money involved in this contest...thus...ANY EDGE can and will be exploited.

This was an EASY edge to exploit. AND it's an EASY EDGE to eliminate. All they have to do is wait until the gates open to release the selections.

Problem solved. Easy as pie.

[cj]

Gotcha, I thought it was all Santa Anita. Agreed then, no way they'll close the pools early. Not saying they shouldn't, but they won't.

The only one that really mattered was the last race, which was Santa Anita. Of course I'm talking about for displaying the picks.

[Racetrack Playa]

I agree Pa and Cj the contest should be cleaned up a bit. But it will not matter because next year the Racetrack Playa wins by +$50. A FTS;)

[Cratos]

I agree. Those downplaying this as something highly unlikely to happen are ignoring reality.

LOTS of money involved in this contest...thus...ANY EDGE can and will be exploited.

This was an EASY edge to exploit. AND it's an EASY EDGE to eliminate. All they have to do is wait until the gates open to release the selections.

Problem solved. Easy as pie.

Theoretically easy; practically difficult. Layout a decision tree and see if it is that easy.

[Gallop58]

Here's my free to the industry solution of the day.
NHC (or any contest) should just freeze the odds in house before they announce the picks.
Calculate payouts based on the frozen odds, not on the final odds at the track.
Easy Peasy...

[cj]

Theoretically easy; practically difficult. Layout a decision tree and see if it is that easy.

Just because you need it explained to you doesn't mean it isn't simple to do for others.

[burnsy]

Theoretically easy; practically difficult. Layout a decision tree and see if it is that easy.

Doesn't matter..that's what I think people don't understand. It has to be iron clad impossible or every year you will get "rabble" like this. At the end...why not risk the thousands it takes. The difference between first, second and third money is worth the risk. At the end if you are leading you know you are winning at least 2nd, maybe 3rd.......1rst is a whole lot better. When this much money is at stake, 5 or 10 grand is spit. Believe me, the day will come where people attempt it....guaranteed...then they get caught, then the history of this tournament being taken seriously...is history. Whose saying it would be easy? Even the "theory" of doing it, remote as it is, makes those rules suck. I can't stress this enough..when people are gambling and they are serious, APPEARANCE IS EVERYTHING! Once they catch someone doing it, that tournament is worth crap as far as helping racing...it will do the opposite. One "genius" wanted the math spelled out as if that mattered.

[Cratos]

Just because you need it explained to you doesn't mean it isn't simple to do for others.

I don't need it explained to me because I know enough statistics to know that it "ain't" that simple and if you believe it is you got the floor; stop the rhetoric and prove it.

One of the biggest hindrances to the growth of horseracing to the general public is the conspiracy theory which conjures that crookedness is ubiquitous in horseracing.

Again, you are the in-house sage on the Forum; prove by example (not by rhetoric) the practical simplistic way of how the pari-mutuel pool was manipulated in the NHC.

[JimmyQ]

Here was my take on the NHC15 ending

www.qracing.blogspot.com (http://www.qracing.blogspot.com)


JimmyQ

[cj]

I don't need it explained to me because I know enough statistics to know that it "ain't" that simple and if you believe it is you got the floor; stop the rhetoric and prove it.

One of the biggest hindrances to the growth of horseracing to the general public is the conspiracy theory which conjures that crookedness is ubiquitous in horseracing.

Again, you are the in-house sage on the Forum; prove by example (not by rhetoric) the practical simplistic way of how the pari-mutuel pool was manipulated in the NHC.

I didn't say it was manipulated, I said it could be. There was plenty of time and the winner was smart enough to do it. I have no idea if he did or didn't do it.

Read the blog post in the post prior to mine. It sums it up pretty nicely. I'm not getting into how to write a program or design a spreadsheet with live pool information that can calculate the amount needed to maintain a lead in a contest. It can be done without much difficulty. It is also pretty easy to have bets queued up and ready to go on a moment's notice. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you know how to send a text.

It isn't my job to educate you, sorry.

[mountainman]

Here was my take on the NHC15 ending

www.qracing.blogspot.com (http://www.qracing.blogspot.com)


JimmyQ

Good blog, ole buddy.

[Cratos]

Here was my take on the NHC15 ending

www.qracing.blogspot.com (http://www.qracing.blogspot.com)


JimmyQ

Jimmy thanks for submitting the data

[cj]

Jimmy thanks for submitting the data

Funny, he didn't spell out the "how" either, but he gets a thanks. Starting to think you just don't like me. :(

[JimmyQ]

Good blog, ole buddy.

Thanks Mountainman...been a while....hope things are well and your staying warm! I heard that's some nasty cold air!

JimmyQ

[JimmyQ]

Jimmy thanks for submitting the data

Yes and thank you for taking the time to read it

JimmyQ

[JimmyQ]

Funny, he didn't spell out the "how" either, but he gets a thanks. Starting to think you just don't like me. :(

LOL...my info wasn't intended to specifically spell everything out but simply provoke thought of what might of happened. Up to you to decide until we here from the CHRB (Who is looking into this) along with the Nevada Gaming Commission. There is a good chance Arias had nothing to do with the late $$ but the NTRA really opened themselves up

JimmyQ

[Cratos]

I didn't say it was manipulated, I said it could be. There was plenty of time and the winner was smart enough to do it. I have no idea if he did or didn't do it.

Read the blog post in the post prior to mine. It sums it up pretty nicely. I'm not getting into how to write a program or design a spreadsheet with live pool information that can calculate the amount needed to maintain a lead in a contest. It can be done without much difficulty. It is also pretty easy to have bets queued up and ready to go on a moment's notice. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you know how to send a text.

It isn't my job to educate you, sorry.

In all due respect, you cannot "educate me"; MIT/Simon did that many years ago, so stop making latent personal attacks; I expected more from you.

[cj]

LOL...my info wasn't intended to specifically spell everything out but simply provoke thought of what might of happened. Up to you to decide until we here from the CHRB (Who is looking into this) along with the Nevada Gaming Commission. There is a good chance Arias had nothing to do with the late $$ but the NTRA really opened themselves up

JimmyQ

I know it wasn't, wasn't a knock on you at all. Just pointing out the hypocritical post of the other guy. It is mind boggling to me that people think this would have been difficult. The toughest part in my mind would be to imagine the scenario in the first place. Once it is done, the rest is a breeze.

If the winner didn't make a late bet, good on him, job well done in the contest. If he did, better on him, he out-handicapped and outsmarted the field. (not to mention won another 75k to boot)

[cj]

In all due respect, you cannot "educate me"; MIT/Simon did that many years ago, so stop making latent personal attacks; I expected more from you.

Yet that is exactly what you were asking, to have it spelled out for you. Make up your mind. Little did I know education ended when you leave the classroom. I thought I'd learned a lot in the real world.

[classhandicapper]

The existence of this thread says everything that has to be said. It doesn't really matter what happened. The fact that it could theoretically happen and that people are talking about that possibility makes it imperative that they change the rules or a lot of people that would have been interested in trying to qualify won't and the reputation of the sport will take another hit.

[mountainman]

Thanks Mountainman...been a while....hope things are well and your staying warm! I heard that's some nasty cold air!

JimmyQ

you too, pal.. and congrats on qualifying 4x..that's impressive......nasty cold here..had flu that almost friggin killed me..did the final show with a temp of 105..hey..where did gary Johnson wind up? he's an acquaintance, and I hope he cashed

[Cratos]

Funny, he didn't spell out the "how" either, but he gets a thanks. Starting to think you just don't like me. :(

I have no reason to dislike you or anyone else on this Forum. Aren't we all communicating in anonymity except by personal choice?

[Cratos]

The existence of this thread says everything that has to be said. It doesn't really matter what happened. The fact that it could theoretically happen and that people are talking about that possibility makes it imperative that they change the rules or a lot of people that would have been interested in trying to qualify won't and the reputation of the sport will take another hit.

You make a valid point that should have been make at the inception.

[jdhanover]

BTW - did anyone else think that 8-1 was a high price on Fit to Rule? I thought that was a high - not saying it expalins the late drop just that the final odds seemed closer to 'right' in my book.

Also, the guy who was in 2d had another horse. So Arias would have had to bet the 1 down and hope the other horses that the 2d, 4th place guys had didnt win.

Not saying it is impossible...but seems unlikely to me.

Agree though that in the future, dont reveal who has what until after the race starts.

[JimmyQ]

BTW - did anyone else think that 8-1 was a high price on Fit to Rule? I thought that was a high - not saying it expalins the late drop just that the final odds seemed closer to 'right' in my book.

Also, the guy who was in 2d had another horse. So Arias would have had to bet the 1 down and hope the other horses that the 2d, 4th place guys had didnt win.

Not saying it is impossible...but seems unlikely to me.

Agree though that in the future, dont reveal who has what until after the race starts.

Fit the Rule was definitely ice cold on the board with the major drop off the pulled up angle. The fact the horse wasn't claimed makes me think this horse wasn't 100%. Anyways, by betting the 3rd place guys horse you assure yourself basically a second place finish. The difference between 2nd and 3rd was 200k vs 100k. A 10k wager secured you a 90k profit.

JimmyQ

[sammy the sage]

Interesting that EVERYBODY focused on win bets only...hypothetically a place wager might have worked just as well if not better...

as class stated...just this thread + Nevada investigation means format or display will have to be changed...

[sammy the sage]

https://beychokracing.com/nhc-pre-recap-hedging-possibility/

"
Before I write up a post-NHC recap I want to address the chit chat about the possibility of hedging by champion Jose Arias. First of all, congratulations to Arias, a fantastic performance gate to wire.

"The whole possibility of some sort of nefarious hedging being done by Arias is a non-starter with me.

Of course he hedged. I would have and my cast members on Horseplayers discussed this possibility ad nauseum during the three day contest and immediately before the final race went off.

Why wouldn’t Arias protect himself against the possibility of a 8-1 shot winning — especially since he knew minutes before the race started who he had to hedge against? I would be shocked if Arias hadn’t hedged or formulated a plan to do so well before the final race went off. This is nothing sinister or nefarious but rather a part of a winning strategy and taking full advantage of the edges presented and exploiting those edges and rules of the contest."

[taxicab]

Thoughts:
1) The CHRB & N.G.C. can look into this matter all they want, there is zero they can do legally about this particular bet [ 10k to win through the machines ].
Even if Arias were to admit he and his posse did fire that 10k bet, there is nothing illegal about it.
And this bet would not fall under the umbrella of "contest manipulation", the reason is legally iron clad......the 10k bet was placed before the starting gates opened into the Santa Anita parimutuel pool.
All legal.
Arias would of done nothing "manipulative"/"pari-mutuel wrong doing" legally speaking.
Bottom line.......It was all within his legal right.
The CHRB can not, and will not do anything in this matter because nothing was done illegally.
And if the NGC tried to step in and freeze Mr. Arias winnings they would be sued immeadiately....and lose.

2) Of course Arias or somebody else is capable of placing this bet to try and help them win the 750k.......anybody that thinks this is not possible is extremely naïve.

3) And if even matters...... the winner of the race was a first time gelding, from a barn that tells it owners when to bet.
I saw the name "Fog City Stable" in the ownership line.
Fog City Stable is David Shimmon and he's filthy rich.......he and his partner owned "Kinetics Group" ( aka......they sold Semi C's to Intel ).
So it's possible the bet came from him.

4) And finally Santa Anita & the CHRB already know where the late money came from ( every single dime that is bet parimutuelly speaking can be tracked by the "host" track ).But like I said, it doesn't matter in this case.

[cnollfan]

After reading subsequent postings on this thread in detail, I realize my initial take was naive.

[Ray]

Taxi....U clearly have no idea what you are talking about. NV gaming laws clearly state under any circumstances is anyone allowed to take an action outside the scope of what is considered normal contest play for that event to gain an advantage or manipulate the results in anyway to alter the outcome. This applies to ANY contest , tournament or drawing that are under the jurisdiction of the NV gaming commission. Also a bet of $10,000 can only be executed from an ADW and The state of NV does Not have any legal ADW what they do have are in state phone accounts but all of those have limits far less than $10,000 so that means the bet was made thru an out of state ADW which again is against the law in NV. If you want to argue for the sake of arguing u can go ahead but there has been a pretty good amount of research done to back this up. Also even tho the best would be considered legal under CHRB rules. the CHRB has a working relationship with NV gaming to assist in all matters pertaining to CHRB jurisdiction if the situation occurred in NV on Ca races. So they will provide and investigate anything the NV gaming wants them to in support of NV laws regardless of what legal standing it may have in CA.

It's possibleand maybe even likely that this wager was made legally by an unrelated party but the fact the NTRA allowed the tourney to be put in such a vulnerable position may be Enuff for NV gaming to take action which in all likely hood would be a major fine for TI which would probably lead to stopping of the tourney. Since there are no contest rules to address this I imagine the only thing that would happen to Arias would be him being barred from the TI and maybe the NHC but the prize money would be safe unless the NV commish wants to fine him as well.

[taxicab]

Oh brother....
From the top:
A $10,000 bet placed legally through the parimutuel system is in no way under the NGC jurisdiction.
They have zero, I repeat zero input in any way, shape, or form in terms of the final/posted parimutuel prices in Calif.
So legally there is nothing out of line with the parimutuel results from SA ninth race sunday.
If there is nothing illegal about the final payoffs the NGC can't even chirp.
And your referencing " anyone allowed to take action outside the scope for normal contest play......." holds no water in this instance.
Let me spell it out for you here.....A legal bet through a parimutuel pool is not gaining an advantage, or manipulating the results in any form.
It's all legal!
Also,at no time was anyone in that contest told they couldn't place a bet during said contest.
And once again, the bet in question was placed into the CALIF. pools.
The point you are trying to make is akin to loaded dice at the crap table, card counting, slot machine rigging in events that are held in Nevada.
In this case the "events" were held at racetracks in other states.
All legally sanctioned in the states where they were held.

And a bet of 10k does not have to be placed only through an ADW.
It can be placed anywhere in the world that is tied into the host racetrack parimutelly speaking......Your statement was so incorrect I can't believe I even responded to it.
Have you ever been to a racetrack?
"I want to bet 10 grand on the 1 horse in the ninth race.......Sorry sir, we can't allow a bet of that size".

Third...
There is actually legal precedent in the books from about 10 years ago in the state of Ohio.
A tourney player bet some oversized amounts into a small pools on horses that couldn't run a step to inflate the prices on his selections.
They tried to freeze his winnings, and he sued the parties holding his money and the legal system sided with the contest player.
He did nothing illegal, that's why he won his suit in a laugher.
That was a much murkier set of circumstances, and look how that turned out.

[Ray]

Well you just spent an hour typing up incoherent bullshit. The thing I'm gonna clarify is they only control the casino and what's in the casino. The wager itself is not illegal the placing the wager with the intent to alter the results of a tournament under there jurisdiction and guidelines. The reach would not go beyond the Nevada border and the sanctions levied against the casino and ban anyone they want from returning nobody ever said anyone was gonna lose the money they made. CHRB has always assisted when they are called upon to provide data to make a determination nothing more. What happened in Ohio is completely irrelevant to any of this. If u r saying Nv gaming control board does not have the authority to do any of that This is where I am finished wasting my time on you.

[Stillriledup]

Well you just spent an hour typing up incoherent bullshit. The thing I'm gonna clarify is they only control the casino and what's in the casino. The wager itself is not illegal the placing the wager with the intent to alter the results of a tournament under there jurisdiction and guidelines. The reach would not go beyond the Nevada border and the sanctions levied against the casino and ban anyone they want from returning nobody ever said anyone was gonna lose the money they made. CHRB has always assisted when they are called upon to provide data to make a determination nothing more. What happened in Ohio is completely irrelevant to any of this. If u r saying Nv gaming control board does not have the authority to do any of that This is where I am finished wasting my time on you.

I think what Cabber is saying is that there was nothing in the rules of the tournament that prohibited contestants from betting real money into the pools.

[taxicab]

Ray.....
Do yourself a favor.
Never.....Ever......under any circumstances, enter a courtroom without proper legal representation.
If you open your mouth in your own legal defense, the judge will give you 25 years for J-Walking.

P.S.....and don't go down to the "Scorpion On Line Legal School of the Desert for Underprivileged Youths" to try and get legal representation on the cheap.
You know that old Hindu saying Ray......"He who tries to save a penny loses a dollar".

[Ray]

You're a joke ..go play elsewhere

[Ray]

Still

I'm not concerned with the NHC rules.its beyond all that.

[Stillriledup]

Still

I'm not concerned with the NHC rules.its beyond all that.

you seem to think that the winning player (or his friends) did something wrong. Is that what you think, that they somehow broke the rules? I'm confused at what you're trying to say.

[PaceAdvantage]

Theoretically easy; practically difficult.Not at all difficult for anyone who knows what they're doing. And I have to assume someone savvy enough to win this contest likely knows what they are doing and has friends that know too.

A laptop and a little info can go a long way (along with the required $$$$).

[PaceAdvantage]

Again, you are the in-house sage on the Forum; prove by example (not by rhetoric) the practical simplistic way of how the pari-mutuel pool was manipulated in the NHC.Simple. The current leader knows who the competition was betting. And they made sure to bet enough on the competition's picks to lower their prices such that if the competition's selection won the race, they wouldn't get back enough to pass the current leader.

It's simple and brilliant all at the same time.

When you're in line to win $750,000, risking $10,000 or so to guarantee victory is as easy a bet as you'll ever make. The ultimate hedge bet. You can't possibly lose. Again, brilliant maneuver, and oh so easy when you know what your competition has going in the final race before the pools are closed.

[PaceAdvantage]

In all due respect, you cannot "educate me"; MIT/Simon did that many years ago, so stop making latent personal attacks; I expected more from you.Oh brother...you are my hero of the day.

[Ray]

you seem to think that the winning player (or his friends) did something wrong. Is that what you think, that they somehow broke the rules? I'm confused at what you're trying to say.


This a a practice that clearly is bad for the reputation of NHC.. Nobody will want to play of people are going to be doing this. It's not the object of the toirnament. The object is to score more points NOT prevent others from scoring. It's a while in the rules that will be closed.my main problem is NTRA and drf have been do dimissive. They act like this could never be done & it clearly can be. So even if they find the bet is not related to the tourney. Just the thought that it could happen is bad news and calls into question the integrity of the tourney

[Stillriledup]

This a a practice that clearly is bad for the reputation of NHC.. Nobody will want to play of people are going to be doing this. It's not the object of the toirnament. The object is to score more points NOT prevent others from scoring. It's a while in the rules that will be closed.my main problem is NTRA and drf have been do dimissive. They act like this could never be done & it clearly can be. So even if they find the bet is not related to the tourney. Just the thought that it could happen is bad news and calls into question the integrity of the tourney

I'm sure if the NHC thinks this is bad for their reputation, they'll make a change.

As far as preventing others from scoring, there was nothing that prevented the player in the 2nd position to select a higher odds horse just to force the first player to make a larger bet. He gave him an ally-oop dunk by picking an 8-1 shot, it didnt take much money to lower the price on the winning horse.

Also, the person in 2nd place has the option in the first couple days to "do better" he can pick better horses and score more points so he or she is not in the position to have to worry if the first bettor is going to hedge out on their selection. Also, there was nothing preventing the person in 2nd to make large win bets on other horses so his 8-1 shot would stay 8-1.

[Stillriledup]

Just another thought about this winning horse and the win betting.

According to the pick 6 probables, those probables seem to fall right in line with the way the race was bet in the win pool. The 1 was paying 56k and was a somewhat close 5th choice, the 3 shortest pick 6 prices were the 3 horses who ended up as the top 3 betting choices, the 2 horse was 4th choice as well as 4th choice in the pick 6.

Now, if there was a theoretical 10k win bet that "shouldnt" have been on the 1 horse, an "unnatural" 10k if you will, that horse would have been 9 or 10-1 , but the pick 6 indicated that this horse was a natural 5th betting choice and not much longer than the 4th betting choice which was the 2 horse Broker Brett.

[Valuist]

Just another thought about this winning horse and the win betting.

According to the pick 6 probables, those probables seem to fall right in line with the way the race was bet in the win pool. The 1 was paying 56k and was a somewhat close 5th choice, the 3 shortest pick 6 prices were the 3 horses who ended up as the top 3 betting choices, the 2 horse was 4th choice as well as 4th choice in the pick 6.

Now, if there was a theoretical 10k win bet that "shouldnt" have been on the 1 horse, an "unnatural" 10k if you will, that horse would have been 9 or 10-1 , but the pick 6 indicated that this horse was a natural 5th betting choice and not much longer than the 4th betting choice which was the 2 horse Broker Brett.

That may be true, but I don't think Pic 6 will-pays are a good gauge just because of the limited number of live tickets. How were the Pic 3 will pays or daily double will pays? They would be a much better measurement of true odds than the Pic 6 will pays, IMO.

[Ray]

Valu,
You are correct 6-1 winner over 4-1 produced $55 for $1 exacta that's over $12 higher than the avg for that combo .. $9.80 to place on the winner is about $3.50 higher than avg place price for 6-1 shot... 4-1 shot that ran 2nd paid $5.60 to place which is 80 cents higher than avg but Well within reason. None of those #'s prove anything except that the winner paid out like an 8-1 based on avgs. Also it's already known there was a$10,000 wager on this horse in final minute of betting only the source has not been revealed. All the other nonsense about one guy could've done better and other could have bet this. I assure everyone the NTRA will address this and have more specific wording against this practice. Too many incidents like this will ruin the NHC and they would no longer be welcome in Las Vegas. One thing you Rarely here about are betting scandals in Vegas.

[PaceAdvantage]

If true though, how would it qualify as a scandal? Were any rules broken, again if the theory is true?

[Stillriledup]

That may be true, but I don't think Pic 6 will-pays are a good gauge just because of the limited number of live tickets. How were the Pic 3 will pays or daily double will pays? They would be a much better measurement of true odds than the Pic 6 will pays, IMO.

Pick 6 pool was about 3 million, you're right, i normally wouldnt use the pick 6 as a gauge, but when its this big and the entire world is betting into it, i think that the combos reflect the true odds and in this case, they did. The probable prices of the top 5 contenders were about 50k and under...it might have been a bit more inaccurate if the probable prices were in the hundreds of thousands, but not the case here.

[Stillriledup]

Valu,
You are correct 6-1 winner over 4-1 produced $55 for $1 exacta that's over $12 higher than the avg for that combo .. $9.80 to place on the winner is about $3.50 higher than avg place price for 6-1 shot... 4-1 shot that ran 2nd paid $5.60 to place which is 80 cents higher than avg but Well within reason. None of those #'s prove anything except that the winner paid out like an 8-1 based on avgs. Also it's already known there was a$10,000 wager on this horse in final minute of betting only the source has not been revealed. All the other nonsense about one guy could've done better and other could have bet this. I assure everyone the NTRA will address this and have more specific wording against this practice. Too many incidents like this will ruin the NHC and they would no longer be welcome in Las Vegas. One thing you Rarely here about are betting scandals in Vegas.

So instead of showing us the rule in the NHC bylaws that says contestants arent allowed to bet into the pari mutuel pools, you come here and shout from the rooftops about a 'betting scandal'?

If you take 10k off this horse, he goes off at a similar win price to Mary Helen's Storm, but his pick 6 probable was much shorter than Mary Helen's Storm's pick 6......none of this stuff adds up that there was a mysterious 10k on this horse, he paid what he was supposed to pay naturally, according to the 3 million dollar pick 6 pool.

And even if he DIDNT pay out as the natural 5th betting choice, there was nothing wrong with that contestant betting 10k to win, there was nothing in the rules that said contestants arent allowed to bet into the actual pools.

[mountainman]

Seal the room and confiscate all devices. Joking aside, some type of caveman-contest would probably have some appeal. Retro is "in," right?
Hey, I think I'm onto something.

[NTamm1215]

Seal the room and confiscate all devices. Joking aside, some type of caveman-contest would probably have some appeal. Retro is "in," right?
Hey, I think I'm onto something.

Keeneland makes it very clear in the rules for the Grade One Gamble that no cell phones can be used in the contest area. It's a good idea, though I think many of the conspiracy theorists believe this was something that was orchestrated long before post time.

[Charli125]

So instead of showing us the rule in the NHC bylaws that says contestants arent allowed to bet into the pari mutuel pools, you come here and shout from the rooftops about a 'betting scandal'?

Betting is allowed in the rules.

They have cash machines, tournament machines, and tellers that handle both. That's how it works at pretty much every contest I've ever been to.

[dirty moose]

Are these tournaments like a poker tournament? I've never played in a one, looks like a nice change of pace. Where could I find a few to play in?
I see NHCqualify.com, but I'm talking more along the lines to cash prizes.

[ManU918]

Are these tournaments like a poker tournament? I've never played in a one, looks like a nice change of pace. Where could I find a few to play in?
I see NHCqualify.com, but I'm talking more along the lines to cash prizes.

Cash...Derby Wars... NHC Qualifiers or qualifiers for other tournaments... Horsetourneys

[cnollfan]

http://www.drf.com/blogs/arias-won-nhc-15-fair-and-square

[cj]

http://www.drf.com/blogs/arias-won-nhc-15-fair-and-square

Like I said, I never had a clue if he did or didn't bet on the winner, and still don't. But the blog post doesn't present any real facts either.

This should be looked at going forward for future contests, and the blogger seems to agree.

[Robert Goren]

Like I said, I never had a clue if he did or didn't bet on the winner, and still don't. But the blog post doesn't present any real facts either.

This should be looked at going forward for future contests, and the blogger seems to agree. There is one thing for sure. Even if this has never occurred in the past, it will become a tool in the future unless something is done to stop it.

[dirty moose]

Cash...Derby Wars... NHC Qualifiers or qualifiers for other tournaments... Horsetourneys

Thank you! Played in one today, came in 2nd for $75

[Stillriledup]

Amazing thread discussion at the end of this article about the NHC. Hellmers, Beychok, Kevin Cox and Keith Chamblin from the NTRA are some in the discussion. Enjoy.

http://www.equinometry.com/2014/02/06/nhc-show-me-the-money/

[Ray]

@702Raycing: NHC/NTRA has agreed to stop exposing contest picks before the race starts. Can't believe they thought that was a good idea to begin with.

[ManU918]

@702Raycing: NHC/NTRA has agreed to stop exposing contest picks before the race starts. Can't believe they thought that was a good idea to begin with.

Did you just quote your own tweet?

[Grits]

SNORT!!!! :lol:

Wine just went all over my monitor .... Good one, ManU.

Why am I not surprised. Its Twitter. :lol:

[Stillriledup]

@702Raycing: NHC/NTRA has agreed to stop exposing contest picks before the race starts. Can't believe they thought that was a good idea to begin with.

The only reason it would be a good idea is transparency. If you know the picks before the race, you can't ever question the integrity of the process.