The reason why Common Core will make things worse

[DJofSD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX78iKhInsc

Common Core, which is suppose to be a better replacement than No Child Left Behind, is actually just an expansion of it. And, it will put big government in charge.

But being in charge does not mean it will be better. All we need to do is look at any federal program with a focus on social issues that has been create over, oh, I don't know, the last 50 years.

Or, as Morphius says "welcome to the desert." In this case, the educational Death Valley.

[Saratoga_Mike]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX78iKhInsc

Common Core, which is suppose to be a better replacement than No Child Left Behind, is actually just an expansion of it. And, it will put big government in charge.

But being in charge does not mean it will be better. All we need to do is look at any federal program with a focus on social issues that has been create over, oh, I don't know, the last 50 years.

Or, as Morphius says "welcome to the desert." In this case, the educational Death Valley.

I can't dispute that, but we do need to improve our educational standards.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I can't dispute that, but we do need to improve our educational standards.

And then the outcomes hopefully at some point too.

[Clocker]

I can't dispute that, but we do need to improve our educational standards.

The first step would be to abolish the Department of Education. Give all that money back to the states. The states that really care about learning will get rid of the bureaucracy of "educators" and reward teaching. Vouchers would be a good start.

[DJofSD]

The first step would be to abolish the Department of Education. Give all that money back to the states. The states that really care about learning will get rid of the bureaucracy of "educators" and reward teaching. Vouchers would be a good start.
I agree. And, beyond the money issues, I would say there is a better chance of returning to a population being better educated by making the education system more responsive.

But, as Michelle Rhee found out, that is much, much easier said than done.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The first step would be to abolish the Department of Education. Give all that money back to the states. The states that really care about learning will get rid of the bureaucracy of "educators" and reward teaching. Vouchers would be a good start.

The federal govt only funds a small portion of K-12 education. In any case, the issue isn't money. Vouchers are a must. Imagine if Republicans opposed vouchers? They'd be labeled racists.

[Clocker]

But, as Michelle Rhee found out,

Exhibit A in the futility of bucking the educational establishment. Which reminds me of another major change that would improve public schools: get rid of the unions.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Exhibit A in the futility of bucking the educational establishment. Which reminds me of another major change that would improve public schools: get rid of the unions.

She did a great job; it's a shame that Fenty wasn't re-elected. But the people of DC preferred someone who kissed their a**, not someone who was focused on actually improving the DC school system.

[Clocker]

The federal govt only funds a small portion of K-12 education.

But that gives them a disproportionate say in how the money is spent.

In any case, the issue isn't money. Vouchers are a must. Imagine if Republicans opposed vouchers? They'd be labeled racists.

You need to keep up with political correctness. Vouchers are racist.


The U.S. Department of Justice (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/08/26/justice-department-attempts-to-block-louisiana-school-voucher-program) is attempting to block a portion of a school voucher program in Louisiana, arguing that vouchers issued in some districts "impeded the desegregation process."

The department filed a lawsuit on Saturday seeking a permanent injunction to stop the state from awarding vouchers to students who attend schools located in districts that are still under federal desegregation orders.

The voucher program, officially called the Louisiana Scholarship Program, was created in New Orleans in 2008 and expanded to the rest of the state in 2012. It gives financial assistance to low-income families who want to transfer their students out of failing schools.

Of the 5,000 vouchers distributed last year, 91 percent went to minority students. The state is expected to issue another 8,000 vouchers for the coming school year.

The Justice Department's lawsuit claims that allowing students to leave failing schools for private schools upsets the racial balance that the desegregation laws were created to maintain.

Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal said in a released statement that the federal filing is "shameful" and that President Barack Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder are trying to trap students in failing public schools.

[jdhanover]

Super complicated isssue....today, neighborhoods with lots of money have excellent schools and vice-versa (generally). But how to correct this? Very tough question.


A few things:
1) Why everyone thinks the Dept of Education is such an issue is beyond me...like the state govts are any good. Plus DOE is very small in grand scheme of things (and there is probably some good uses for it....whether or not the current purpose is debatable)
2) Teacher unions need to go away and teachers need to have some sort of merit based pay (better results with the kids = more money for them). Tenure - gimme a break. In the real world nowadays there is no such thing
3) However, we need to pay teachers more.. a lot more. This attracts new, young teachers and will increase the quality
4) Longer school days. In Japan the kids go 6 days a week 10 hours a day. You think they learn more in their 12 years than our kids? That may be a bit much but kids nowadays have a lot fewer class hours than they should.

But the big problem...as always....$$$$ Where does it come from? My personal belief is we should redirect a portion of military spending here (we do outspend the next 17 countries in the world combined) but there needs to be comprehensive plans/reform. Dont see it happening anytime, ever.

[Tom]

We turn out stupid kids because stupid people run our schools.

[Clocker]

However, we need to pay teachers more.. a lot more. This attracts new, young teachers and will increase the quality

It's all about supply and demand. At the current wages, we have an over supply of teachers. We don't need to spend more money, we need to spend it smarter.

[jdhanover]

Ah, but is the oversupply one of "good' teachers? I think a fair number of current teachers arent 'good' (some are great - no need to jump on me as anti-teacher cuz that isn't true). So how do you flush those out and attract better ones?

Supply/demand is partially warped in this market because lower income neighborhoods have less $ yet are in desparate need of great teachers to help that area's kids be able to not get stuck in the cycle of poverty.

[Clocker]

Ah, but is the oversupply one of "good' teachers? I think a fair number of current teachers arent 'good' (some are great - no need to jump on me as anti-teacher cuz that isn't true). So how do you flush those out and attract better ones?

By definition, 50% of all teachers are above average. :p

I think that the academic success of start-up private schools (the ones paid for by vouchers, not those $50K a year prep schools) shows that there are a lot of good, motivated teachers out there that respond to a positive environment without above market wages.

[JustRalph]

By definition, 50% of all teachers are above average. :p

I think that the academic success of start-up private schools (the ones paid for by vouchers, not those $50K a year prep schools) shows that there are a lot of good, motivated teachers out there that respond to a positive environment without above market wages.

Lots of failures too. The states have to do a better job.

50 Charter schools failed in central Ohio last year

Try this in google

columbus ohio charter schools failure

[TJDave]

We turn out stupid kids because stupid people run our schools.

Stupid parents turn out stupid kids. If it were the fault of educators all the kids would be stupid.

[Tom]

Stupid parents turn out stupid kids. If it were the fault of educators all the kids would be stupid.
When your graduation rate is 35%, you have a failed school system.

[TJDave]

When your graduation rate is 35%, you have a failed school system.

Almost 7 of 10 don't graduate?

Do they drop out?

Who would allow such behavior?

[Robert Goren]

When your graduation rate is 35%, you have a failed school system.Not if you send 6 football players and 4 basketball players to division one colleges. If school systems worried as much Science and Math as they did about sports, then half our problems would disappear.

[Robert Goren]

The best thing that ever happened to schools in America was the grade level standards that was started under GWB. We need more testing and higher standards. I don't want to hear bull shit about teachers teaching to the test, at least when they are teaching to the test, they are teaching something. We have Bar exams and CPA exams to make sure lawyers and accountants have a basic knowledge. So should every kid that passes a grade level.

[Robert Goren]

It's all about supply and demand. At the current wages, we have an over supply of teachers. We don't need to spend more money, we need to spend it smarter.We have over supply of bad teachers and an under supply of good teachers. The best teacher I had in high school quit and went to selling real estate.( the skill set is remarkably the same if you think about it) He said he triple his income. Now that was a long time ago, but I doubt if things have changed much. The best and brightest take one look at what teachers get paid and say I can make a lot more else where. They guy who barely got through runs to teaching because it gives him a job. Some turn into good teachers, but most don't.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The best thing that ever happened to schools in America was the grade level standards that was started under GWB. We need more testing and higher standards. I don't want to hear bull shit about teachers teaching to the test, at least when they are teaching to the test, they are teaching something. We have Bar exams and CPA exams to make sure lawyers and accountants have a basic knowledge. So should every kid that passes a grade level.

...a rare moment when I completely agree with you.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Not if you send 6 football players and 4 basketball players to division one colleges. If school systems worried as much Science and Math as they did about sports, then half our problems would disappear.


...and just to make it 2 in a row where you get a motion seconded, this is one of my pet peeves at ALL levels of "academics" 'round here.

[Tom]

Basic skills and no grading on the curve.
The standard, of course is the best the rest of the world has to offer.
We need to compare our science scores to the best in the world.
Ditto our math scores, biology scores, history scores......if your goal is world class, any less is not acceptable. If we fail entire school districts, so be it.

Here's my suggestion.
Classes 8am - noon. Everyone.
If you are an A student, you go home.
If you are less than A, enjoy your lunch, you are back 1pm-5Pm.
Until you are an A student, too.

If you are less than a C student, you come in Saturday, with a parent.
Be prepared to spend all day - both of you.

No one moves to the next grade with less than a B average.
Your school-life is indeterminate.

[DJofSD]

If you are less than a C student, you come in Saturday, with a parent.

My son's school does this but sans parent.

Biggest problem I see with most of the kids that fall into this group, they just don't care about school. See the link in the thread stater about this issue.

And the attitude of the kids is very obvious even in the classroom. It bugs the sh*t out of my son. Especially when there are group assignments and he ends up in a group with some of these kids.