Oaklawn Park Race 9 Photo

[tanner12oz]

Does oaklawn have photos online or does anyone with connections here have access to the photo? I was really confident the 4 got up but guess not...same thing happened last spring at oaklawn to me so I'm guessing it's a bad angle on the simulcast feed...anyone have the photo though ?

[NJ Stinks]

I can't help with the photo, Tanner. But I will add that was one long Inquiry - I was surprised they took that long and left the 10 up.

Very tough beat with the #4.

[lamboguy]

that race is over now, i am trying to figure out if DISCIPLINE is the right horse next time out because it sure looked to me that he had another gear left to shift into before he got squished in between horses. he should be at least 4-1 next time.

[Pensacola Pete]

Looked to me like 10 held on by a nose, but he was caught just past the wire.

[tanner12oz]

I'll have to watch it again...for the integrity of the sport photo finishes should be easily viewable somewhere..i called the racing office yesterday and they said they would email me a copy which would be great..will post it if received...it was a crazy stretch of races with inquiries on back to back to back simulcasted tracks (oaklawn.golden gate.sa) I was involved in 2 of them and neither broke my way lol

[PoloUK6108]

Their camera angle at the wire is f'd up from what i saw yesterday. Hadn't bet OP in a long time.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Tanner - I thought the same thing. Had the :4: to complete a small pick 3, and I thought he was bobbing in sync with the :10: and ahead at the wire. You're probably right - just a bad camera angle giving the inside horse a big edge.....but, why the photos aren't posted online in this day and age is a crock. All tracks ought to have replays, results, photos, and a summary of inquiries/objections readily available on their web sites.....

[johnhannibalsmith]

.....but, why the photos aren't posted online in this day and age is a crock. ...

Beyond being a crock, it seems just stupid not to. Other than the 1% like SRU that can look at a photo finish and decide that his opinion is still right because the "line" is too big, most people have their skepticism cured pretty readily by the photo. It just seems like good business sense to demonstrate that the right call was definitely made and not leave these sorts of debates up for debate any longer than necessary.

[tanner12oz]

Tanner - I thought the same thing. Had the :4: to complete a small pick 3, and I thought he was bobbing in sync with the :10: and ahead at the wire. You're probably right - just a bad camera angle giving the inside horse a big edge.....but, why the photos aren't posted online in this day and age is a crock. All tracks ought to have replays, results, photos, and a summary of inquiries/objections readily available on their web sites.....

mine was a $1 pick 4 so you understand my frustration

[hogoffate]

I feel sorry for you guys, I had the :10: in the pick 4 and I still don't think he won. I know for sure past the wire :4: was in front easily. Couldn't believe he "won" and had to survive the inquiry.

I would love to see the photo. There hasn't been one that I have seen.
Please post if they make it public

[098poi]

I feel sorry for you guys, I had the :10: in the pick 4 and I still don't think he won. I know for sure past the wire :4: was in front easily. Couldn't believe he "won" and had to survive the inquiry.

I would love to see the photo. There hasn't been one that I have seen.
Please post if they make it public

They have to wait for the film to come back from the pharmacy.

[tanner12oz]

They told me the would email me one today and of course never did...gotta love the transparency *sarcasm*

[egreen]

I heard an interview with announcer Frank yesterday in which he said the camera angle at OP is deceiving and the inside horse always has the edge in a photo.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Do they still have 2 finish lines, for different differneces? That may be why TV shows a bit 'off' on at least one of them. However each finish line should have its own photo finish camera for the official placing.

[PIC6SIX]

I had the #4 as a contest wager and I felt for SURE they would take the #10 down. Seems to me the judges are always wrong in their conclusion. :confused:

[Pensacola Pete]

Do they still have 2 finish lines, for different differneces? That may be why TV shows a bit 'off' on at least one of them. However each finish line should have its own photo finish camera for the official placing.

Oaklawn, a one-mile track, has the finish line at the 1/16th pole for mile races. They obviously have separate photo finish cameras, but they share the same pan (TV) camera for both.

Three other tracks have used alternative finish lines. Arlington, a 1 1/8th track, began using an alternate finish line for its 1 1/16th mile races in 2009. Keeneland, is a 1 1/16th mile track, also uses one for its 1 1/16 races. Fair Grounds, a one-mile track, used to have an alternative finish line for its one-mile races. This was removed in late 2009, when the track stopped carding one-mile races on the dirt.

At least one track had a phantom finish line for one race. Calder had a daily double known as the "Harrison Half" in 2007 on a one-mile race. The bettor had to choose the leader at the half-mile pole, as well as the winner of the race. There's no mention of whether an actual photo-finish camera was installed at the half-mile pole, but it's doubtful.

Alternate finish lines have caused occasional problems with jockeys standing up in the irons at the alternate finish line, when the regular finish line was in use.

[cj]

Laurel uses an alternate finish line for one mile dirt races, past the normal finish line by 1/16th or an 1/8th, don't remember which.

[wisconsin]

Laurel uses an alternate finish line for one mile dirt races, past the normal finish line by 1/16th or an 1/8th, don't remember which.


Also an alternate turf finish for 5 1/2 furlong sprints on the grass. They use a bright red light on the correct pole, probably since a few riders misjudged the finish, including a 3-5 shot some years back.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I'm not so concerned about the potential for "funny business" by the placing judges, though I can recall a few times at smaller circuits where suspicion of a mythical "trust us" finish line was warranted.

I just like to know how much I got beat by to add to my own personal agony. After all, a "nose" in the result chart can vary by a foot. For a $135, no big deal, but photos should be part of the readily available results.

The most brutal photo I ever lost was the 1996 Derby, when Grindstone nosed out Cavonnier by a nostril - cost me close to $7,000 (win bet, tri, super), since all I had was the exacta for $62.... :(

[wiffleball whizz]

Oaklawn, a one-mile track, has the finish line at the 1/16th pole for mile races. They obviously have separate photo finish cameras, but they share the same pan (TV) camera for both.

Three other tracks have used alternative finish lines. Arlington, a 1 1/8th track, began using an alternate finish line for its 1 1/16th mile races in 2009. Keeneland, is a 1 1/16th mile track, also uses one for its 1 1/16 races. Fair Grounds, a one-mile track, used to have an alternative finish line for its one-mile races. This was removed in late 2009, when the track stopped carding one-mile races on the dirt.

At least one track had a phantom finish line for one race. Calder had a daily double known as the "Harrison Half" in 2007 on a one-mile race. The bettor had to choose the leader at the half-mile pole, as well as the winner of the race. There's no mention of whether an actual photo-finish camera was installed at the half-mile pole, but it's doubtful.

Alternate finish lines have caused occasional problems with jockeys standing up in the irons at the alternate finish line, when the regular finish line was in use.

Oaklawn has 2 wires and 2 different cameras......

No doubt these photo finishes can be boat jobs......

Laurel has 2 wires and if u look up u will see different cameras.....


I'm starting to thaw out from 5 months of football..... Racing is starting to get me exited again......

[tanner12oz]

Just to update I've had about a dozen calls and emails to oaklawn and various people in the industry and of course we are no closer to actually seeing what determined the winner of the race and deciding factor for 10's of thousands of dollars changing hands...customer service at oaklawn mirrors your local dmv

[hogoffate]

Just to update I've had about a dozen calls and emails to oaklawn and various people in the industry and of course we are no closer to actually seeing what determined the winner of the race and deciding factor for 10's of thousands of dollars changing hands...customer service at oaklawn mirrors your local dmv

This is nuts that the photo of the finish can't be produced. I won and I'm still puzzled. I've watched it a few times, tried to pause it etc.. and still find it hard to believe.

[wiffleball whizz]

Can the link be given to see stretch drive?

[Si2see]

I remember 4 or 5 years ago at a Virginia otb two "gentlemen" bet $100 on a photo finish at Oaklawn. It was a heated situation and I was hoping for a dead heat so there wasn't any altercation.... After a few minutes the horse I thought won was posted in 2nd... Glad it wasn't my $100 on the line

[tanner12oz]

Ok I just got off the phone with frank from oaklawn and I am satisfied with the outcome. As someone else mentioned on the thread he stated that oaklawns camera angle is incredibly deceptive with a strong advantage to the inside horse. He said that there was a photo posted on the simulcast feed but did acknowledge that the photo wasn't picked up by tvg and hrtv. He said that there is in no way a conspiracy going going on or anything of that matter. He said that this thread has made the rounds at oaklawn (we hit it big guys). I mentioned to him that the California circuit posts the photos online to eliminate alot of these kinda issues..would seem like if you know the angle has its faults that this would be a very cheap direction to go...he acknowledged that talking to oaklawn or even the racing office directly will leave ya with a bad taste in your mouth..said he is always available simply as one race fan to another..conversation was heated at time but lasted maybe 10 minutes and I appreciate frank taking the time out of his day to talk to me...i feel comfortable we aren't getting screwed...thanks frank

[PaceAdvantage]

I am constantly amazed by the number of people who think for even a nanosecond that there are racing officials out there who would even think of messing with the race result via the photo finish.

I mean, come on...does anyone seriously believe this?

So let me get this straight...a racing official (or group of officials) comes up with a plan to fix a race, and to make it REALLY DIFFICULT TO DO, their plan includes a PHOTO FINISH.

Without a photo finish, the plan just won't work... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Talk about making the difficult job of fixing a race even MORE difficult by requiring a PHOTO FINISH!!!

Or do you guys believe that someone in the stewards stand had a bet going that depends on the result of the photo finish camera? Is that what you believe? Some racing official standing behind the guy whose job it is to call the photo, breathing down his neck, telling him to somehow alter the results or bury the photo?

Most if not all tracks use computers to examine the photo finish...they actually don't print a photo...that ought to get you guys REALLY NERVOUS...imagine how easy it would be to alter the finish via PhotoShop!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tanner12oz]

I never accused anyone of fraud or altering results my issue was a lack of transparency...oaklawn wasn't 100% to blame either since tvg and hrtv failed to "wrap up" the race so to speak with the photo from the oaklawn feed. I just think this game suffers alot from bad customer service and until speaking with frank that was exactly the case...imagine I'm a new player or just some average Joe...my horse crosses the wire first to the naked eye as a result of misleading camera angles even though actually losing...the results then get posted average Joe says wtf...no answers gets angry and never plays again....im not picking on oaklawn because its widespread in the industry and I imagine at some other tracks I called the announcer would be inaccessible or simply hang up on me....WE ALL can do better..thats all I'm saying...

[PaceAdvantage]

I would like to meet the person who is THAT CONVINCED of a race result (one that requires a photo finish) SIMPLY by watching it on TV.

You had NO DOUBT of the result after you watched it? Even in slow motion? You factored in the camera angle and the placement of the wire? And after all that, you still thought the result of the race was quite possibly posted in error, until you saw that photo for yourself?

[Stillriledup]

I am constantly amazed by the number of people who think for even a nanosecond that there are racing officials out there who would even think of messing with the race result via the photo finish.

I mean, come on...does anyone seriously believe this?

So let me get this straight...a racing official (or group of officials) comes up with a plan to fix a race, and to make it REALLY DIFFICULT TO DO, their plan includes a PHOTO FINISH.

Without a photo finish, the plan just won't work... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Talk about making the difficult job of fixing a race even MORE difficult by requiring a PHOTO FINISH!!!

Or do you guys believe that someone in the stewards stand had a bet going that depends on the result of the photo finish camera? Is that what you believe? Some racing official standing behind the guy whose job it is to call the photo, breathing down his neck, telling him to somehow alter the results or bury the photo?

Most if not all tracks use computers to examine the photo finish...they actually don't print a photo...that ought to get you guys REALLY NERVOUS...imagine how easy it would be to alter the finish via PhotoShop!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That's the great thing about horse racing, there's no fraud in the game!

:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

That's the great thing about horse racing, there's no fraud in the game!

:ThmbUp:Yeah...that's what I was saying. I knew someone was going to come back at me with something meaningless like that...maybe even point out that little BC Pick 6 fiasco as proof that everything is fixed at all times.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah...that's what I was saying. I knew someone was going to come back at me with something meaningless like that...maybe even point out that little BC Pick 6 fiasco as proof that everything is fixed at all times.

Nobody is suggesting that everything is fixed
"at all times" we just prefer not to be born last night!

[tanner12oz]

That's the great thing about horse racing, there's no fraud in the game!

:ThmbUp:

lol...thats what I was thinking. Again though I never thought it was a fraud issue and all I wanted was simply an explanation or information which is readily available to certain people. In all honesty never would I have thought it would have spun out like this...figured I could simply call over and the would tell me where photos are posted or they would email me it and end of story

[PaceAdvantage]

Nobody is suggesting that everything is fixed
"at all times" we just prefer not to be born last night!How about we concentrate on this one specific instance.

[EMD4ME]

I will not pretend to know about Oaklawn but I will make a comment about photos at NYRA tracks. In 2005, or close to 2005, they removed the steal beam finish lines at Aqu, Bel and Sar. It absolutely infuriates me that there is a 9 inch long mirror as the finish line. Why? Because the "photo" that we see after a race is declared official is not a natural photo. It is a digitally prepared "photo" with a "finish line" superimposed to it after the race is over. To sit here, in a game full of corruption, and to state that all photos are true and honest is an impossible truth to believe in. I don't have proof but I would not be surprised if a well known owner or trainer was given a break in a photo in NY. Especially when you have 9 inches of "photos" to work with. You want another example? Look at Yonker's finishing line. What a joke. They obviously don't place a camera on the line for selfish reasons. Why? Because if it's too close for comfort, they want the flexibility to select the outcome of what they want in certain predetermined result races. I know I sound crazy but if there's legitimacy and integrity in our sport, then why not have finish lines at all tracks, with a steal beam above the line AND a perfectly placed camera on the line??? Tampa Bay Downs is the only track that I can think off with a clean camera shot for the public to see. Very disappointing but sadly the norm in our dying game.

[NJ Stinks]

lol...thats what I was thinking. Again though I never thought it was a fraud issue and all I wanted was simply an explanation or information which is readily available to certain people. In all honesty never would I have thought it would have spun out like this...figured I could simply call over and the would tell me where photos are posted or they would email me it and end of story


I did not think you were accusing anyone of anything. You simply brought attention to something that should be readily available to the betting public in 2014. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

I will not pretend to know about Oaklawn but I will make a comment about photos at NYRA tracks. In 2005, or close to 2005, they removed the steal beam finish lines at Aqu, Bel and Sar. It absolutely infuriates me that there is a 9 inch long mirror as the finish line. Why? Because the "photo" that we see after a race is declared official is not a natural photo. It is a digitally prepared "photo" with a "finish line" superimposed to it after the race is over. To sit here, in a game full of corruption, and to state that all photos are true and honest is an impossible truth to believe in. I don't have proof but I would not be surprised if a well known owner or trainer was given a break in a photo in NY. Especially when you have 9 inches of "photos" to work with. You want another example? Look at Yonker's finishing line. What a joke. They obviously don't place a camera on the line for selfish reasons. Why? Because if it's too close for comfort, they want the flexibility to select the outcome of what they want in certain predetermined result races. I know I sound crazy but if there's legitimacy and integrity in our sport, then why not have finish lines at all tracks, with a steal beam above the line AND a perfectly placed camera on the line??? Tampa Bay Downs is the only track that I can think off with a clean camera shot for the public to see. Very disappointing but sadly the norm in our dying game.Oh brother... :rolleyes:

And by the way, if you're betting anything but TAM, you're a hypocrite and a fool (by your own words, not mine).

[EMD4ME]

Oh brother... :rolleyes:

And by the way, if you're betting anything but TAM, you're a hypocrite and a fool (by your own words, not mine).

Just because I am pointing out serious non definitive flaws in 98% of our racetrack's photo finish systems, does not make me a hypocrite by wagering in those pools. It does suck as a photo can be doctored to my benefit/detriment but unfortunately, if you want to partake in parimutual horse racing pools, this is something we unfortunately need to live with or we can't play. My choice is to play despite it as 99.999% of the time, I don't feel there is any larceny with a photo.

[tanner12oz]

Which tracks post photos on there website? I know Hollywood did for win place and show photos...kinda thinking there attitude is more an exception then the rule

[Rise Over Run]

Which tracks post photos on there website? I know Hollywood did for win place and show photos...kinda thinking there attitude is more an exception then the rule

NYRA has been posting them for quite a while. You can find photos going back to November 2009 on their website.

http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/photo-finish/

[rastajenk]

What's a steal beam?

[Rise Over Run]

What's a steal beam?

http://arorasalesagency.com/images/beam.jpg

[wisconsin]

I will not pretend to know about Oaklawn but I will make a comment about photos at NYRA tracks. In 2005, or close to 2005, they removed the steal beam finish lines at Aqu, Bel and Sar. It absolutely infuriates me that there is a 9 inch long mirror as the finish line. Why? Because the "photo" that we see after a race is declared official is not a natural photo. It is a digitally prepared "photo" with a "finish line" superimposed to it after the race is over. To sit here, in a game full of corruption, and to state that all photos are true and honest is an impossible truth to believe in. I don't have proof but I would not be surprised if a well known owner or trainer was given a break in a photo in NY. Especially when you have 9 inches of "photos" to work with. You want another example? Look at Yonker's finishing line. What a joke. They obviously don't place a camera on the line for selfish reasons. Why? Because if it's too close for comfort, they want the flexibility to select the outcome of what they want in certain predetermined result races. I know I sound crazy but if there's legitimacy and integrity in our sport, then why not have finish lines at all tracks, with a steal beam above the line AND a perfectly placed camera on the line??? Tampa Bay Downs is the only track that I can think off with a clean camera shot for the public to see. Very disappointing but sadly the norm in our dying game.


The 9" does not allow multiple shots to choose from, because the camera eye shutters upon movement. The superimposed line is placed on the nose which is in front when the camera shutters. The mirror size has nothing to do with it. Better quit betting today if you think you are on the short end of the stick.

[NJ Stinks]

Which tracks post photos on there website? I know Hollywood did for win place and show photos...kinda thinking there attitude is more an exception then the rule


Keeneland did. I can't say if they still do.

[Stillriledup]

I will not pretend to know about Oaklawn but I will make a comment about photos at NYRA tracks. In 2005, or close to 2005, they removed the steal beam finish lines at Aqu, Bel and Sar. It absolutely infuriates me that there is a 9 inch long mirror as the finish line. Why? Because the "photo" that we see after a race is declared official is not a natural photo. It is a digitally prepared "photo" with a "finish line" superimposed to it after the race is over. To sit here, in a game full of corruption, and to state that all photos are true and honest is an impossible truth to believe in. I don't have proof but I would not be surprised if a well known owner or trainer was given a break in a photo in NY. Especially when you have 9 inches of "photos" to work with. You want another example? Look at Yonker's finishing line. What a joke. They obviously don't place a camera on the line for selfish reasons. Why? Because if it's too close for comfort, they want the flexibility to select the outcome of what they want in certain predetermined result races. I know I sound crazy but if there's legitimacy and integrity in our sport, then why not have finish lines at all tracks, with a steal beam above the line AND a perfectly placed camera on the line??? Tampa Bay Downs is the only track that I can think off with a clean camera shot for the public to see. Very disappointing but sadly the norm in our dying game.

Great post Emd. :ThmbUp:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103673&highlight=dead+heat

[PaceAdvantage]

Great post Emd. :ThmbUp:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103673&highlight=dead+heatNo surprise you would think so. Even when confronted with conclusive photographic evidence by yours truly, you still thought the results didn't match the photo... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Stillriledup]

No surprise you would think so. Even when confronted with conclusive photographic evidence by yours truly, you still thought the results didn't match the photo... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:D

"Conclusive Photographic Evidence"

[PaceAdvantage]

:D

"Conclusive Photographic Evidence"And you wonder why some of your posts are deleted.

[Stillriledup]

And you wonder why some of your posts are deleted.

Yeah, we both know why. ;)

[Jeff P]

Here's a link to a thread from March of last year... same topic, different track, this time at MNR:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102007

FWIW, I'm convinced that the (1930'a) photo finish technology racing uses (present day) DOES result in a high degree of accuracy when it comes to official placings.

That said, I'm also convinced the (1930'a) photo finish technology racing still uses (present day) also results in a video experience that is sorely lacking compared to the video replay experience delivered to the public by other sports racing must compete with for market share/fan base.

For example, imagine a photo finish in the Men's 100 Meters with an Olympic Gold Medal on the line.

If it were done the way racing does it:

The official finish line is not clearly marked in such a way that newbie race fans can intuitively identify it. The official finish line is, however, a theoretical point in space 100 meters plus a runup distance (where the distance of the runup varies from stadium to stadium) from where the starting blocks were positioned.

The slow motion replay cameras are mounted several feet to the left or several feet to the right of where the point in space where the official finish line is. This, of course results in confusion as to who actually won the race (even after watching the slow motion replay several times.)

There's a big white pole marked "finish." However, the pole itself is not the actual finish line. It's just a marker placed near the finish line (and can be several feet to the left or several feet to the right of the actual finish line.)

Because the official photo finish uses 1930's technology, it doesn't contain anything in it to denote background objects or the actual official finish line. (However, it does contain a "cartooned in" finish line.)

The official photo finish is shown briefly on the television feed after the race. However, for whatever reason, this year's Men's 100 Meter Olympic Gold Medal photo finish was never posted to the Olympic Committee website (and because the Olympic Committee owns all the rights to it you can't seem to find it anywhere on the web afterwards.)

Just imagine if Olympic track and field competition was produced that way.


-jp

.

[Jeff P]

Got called away while in the middle of editing the above post and ran out of edit time. Below is the final version of what I was trying to say:


Here's a link to a thread from March of last year... same topic, different race, that one was at MNR:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102007

In that thread I posted I'm convinced the (1930's) photo finish technology that racing uses (present day) DOES in fact result in a high degree of accuracy when it comes to official placings. (I still contend this is true.)

In that thread I also posted reasons why I'm convinced the (1930's) photo finish technology racing still uses (present day) results in a video experience sorely lacking when compared to the video replay experience delivered to the public by other sports racing must compete with for market share/fan base.

Imagine a photo finish in the Men's 100 Meters with an Olympic Gold Medal on the line if it were done the way racing does it:

There's a big white pole with the letters "FINISH" painted on it. However, the pole itself is not the actual finish line. It's just a marker placed near the finish line and can be several feet to the left or several feet to the right of where the actual finish line is (depending on the individual stadium.)

Despite that big white pole with the letters "FINISH" painted on it, the closest thing to a physical object denoting an actual finish line is a mirror. But only seasoned race goers know this. Seasoned race goers also know the mirror is not the actual finish line. The actual finish line is in fact a theoretical point in space where the photo finish camera has been directed. Of course all of this is common knowledge to insiders and seasoned race goers. And none of it is presented in such a way that new would be race fans can be sure (exactly) where the official finish line is.

Even though it's the Men's 100 Meter Final and an Olympic Gold Medal is on the line there's something called a "runup" which means the runners have to cover a distance of ground that is actually more than 100 meters. Additionally, the distance of the "runup" varies from one stadium to the next (and even from one 100 meter race to the next at the same stadium.) The actual distance covered from starting block to finish line (the finish line that isn't clearly marked) during a race is distance of the "runup" plus 100 meters.

Like the big while pole with the letters "FINISH" painted on it, the slow motion replay camera is positioned several feet to the left or several feet to the right of the point in space where the official finish line is. Placement of the replay camera to the left or to the right varies from one stadium to the next and local knowledge of how replays at the individual stadium are impacted is generally attained through years of watching race replays at the individual stadium. This, of course results in confusion among casual fans as to who actually won a race (even after watching the replay several times.)

Because the official photo finish uses 1930's technology, when you look at it you can't see any background objects or a physical finish line. (However, you do get to see a finish line that has been "cartooned in.")

And touching on something that was mentioned in other posts made earlier in this thread...

This year's official photo finish of the Olympic Men's 100 Meter Final was shown briefly on television monitors after the race. However, for whatever reason, those putting on the show never bothered to post the official photo on the Olympic Committee website (and because the Olympic Committee owns the rights to all of the official photos you can't seem to find this year's photo anywhere on the web afterwards.)

Just imagine how popular The Olympics would be if their photos were produced like this.



-jp

.

[rastajenk]

If any new race fan threw his hands up after a close call and said, "I can't handle this ancient technology" and walks away, he was probably looking for the quickest available out in the first place. Not all tracks are created equal, and none but Dubai can compete with the Olympics. Jeff P deserves a ton of respect, but this is just silly.

[wiffleball whizz]

No reason why tracks did away with the steel beam......most harness tracks have them.....some tracks have the dead on fixed camera on the wire with the steel beam

Why did nyra do away with the steel beams it makes no sense


I agree 100 percent with poster who says Yonkers doctors photos.........that is accurate.....sometimes it really really favors outside and sometimes it's even worse

[EMD4ME]

With zero exaggeration, I remember races where an "inside horse" won by at least 1/2 of a length (and before anyone asks, no, the outside horse was not rapidly gaining) at Yonkers. As they hit the wire, the announcer half way screams "that is dead close" and says its 'the outside horse and the inside horse' in a dead tight photo. They show the outside horse while we wait for the "photo" and viola, its the outside horse in a tight photo.

Then a few races later, the inside horse appears to win by a head and the announcer calls it clear "the inside horse wins by a desperate nose/head". I'll say this.... its very easy for WWE announcers to call the action. Of course, because its scripted and rehearsed, same at Yonkers. For the record, I am a thoroughbred player. I never wager on harness but many times the TV is on and I watch out of pure boredom because it happens to be on.

That is one sport that will never receive a wager from me. Completely scripted more often than not. There "photo finish" system is really just insurance in case a rogue driver doesn't go long with the script and makes it close.

Chris Carton once said: 'on my last day of employment at a stable at Yonkers, I received an envelope with my going away present. It wasn't cash. It was tonight's program, with a circle around every winner'. Woooowww. I never forgot that.

[Stillriledup]

With zero exaggeration, I remember races where an "inside horse" won by at least 1/2 of a length (and before anyone asks, no, the outside horse was not rapidly gaining) at Yonkers. As they hit the wire, the announcer half way screams "that is dead close" and says its 'the outside horse and the inside horse' in a dead tight photo. They show the outside horse while we wait for the "photo" and viola, its the outside horse in a tight photo.

Then a few races later, the inside horse appears to win by a head and the announcer calls it clear "the inside horse wins by a desperate nose/head". I'll say this.... its very easy for WWE announcers to call the action. Of course, because its scripted and rehearsed, same at Yonkers. For the record, I am a thoroughbred player. I never wager on harness but many times the TV is on and I watch out of pure boredom because it happens to be on.

That is one sport that will never receive a wager from me. Completely scripted more often than not. There "photo finish" system is really just insurance in case a rogue driver doesn't go long with the script and makes it close.

Chris Carton once said: 'on my last day of employment at a stable at Yonkers, I received an envelope with my going away present. It wasn't cash. It was tonight's program, with a circle around every winner'. Woooowww. I never forgot that.

There's a poster here at PA called Whiffleball Whizz. You guys would hit it off. :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

I take that in good spirit :) However, I must say: it may be hard to believe but I'm not jaded. Just calling a spade a spade.

[rastajenk]

Is it just one guy doing the photoshopping, or are all the judges, the chartcaller, the announcer, and everybody else who might be upstairs at the time that are in on the scam? If you were one of those guys, would you be willing to risk everything in your career for a wink and a nod?

Have any of you ever wondered if this forum is not Reason No. 12,569 in the long list of reasons why racing is waning? A potential casual fan googling for some racing conversation could just as easily be turned off by some of the stuff that goes on here as be enlightened by it. No offense to the mods, who run a good show; just saying.

[EMD4ME]

I did state that I believe that 99% plus of photos do actually go to the deserved photo winner. However, as we're on the topic, it does bother me that we used to watch slow motion replays with the camera stopping right as the 2 (or 3) horses would hit the wire (I referred to it as a steal beam. Forgive me, I meant steal rod or steal wire etc.) In 2005 or so, NYRA decided to remove the steal rod. Why? Why eliminate 100% conclusive video evidence of who won the race. Why are we subject to a stupid pole that says finish on it , only to have a 9 inch mirror 3 feet past the finish pole? Racing is the dirtiest, filthiest, most corrupt game I have ever come across. It doesn't need the ambiguity. After 30 years of investing in pools and coming out ahead many years (with half a million in handle), I feel like I had and have a right to state what is obvious. No, I am not a rookie, nor a degenerate who blames "they". However, I have seen a lot in my 30 years and there is zero chance that I will gullibly say :chee I'm sure that's a legit photo if I see an opportunity for thievery staring me right in the face. Is it possible that placing judges all decide to super impose a line on the exact spot that they need? Absolutely. Was it possible for multiple placing judges to place a 9th finisher as the 4th finisher at NYRA a few years back? Yes because it happened. I do understand that a casual player might read this and be upset. Well, my question is this? What about the feelings of the die hard who handles a half a mil a year? What about fixing the perception and the problem instead of us just being super positive and trusting people who have proven to have zero ethics time and time again?

[wiffleball whizz]

Photos shouldn't be a guessing game......they do what they want



Haven't bet much horses in last few months cuz of football but of the last 60 races I bet 55 were flats......

[EMD4ME]

http://youtu.be/KLV7xZPwvM0

Look at 5:55 first. How definitive and nice was it to be able to see with zero question, that Victory Gallop's nose hit the PHYSICAL non imaginative wire?

Why remove the wire?

Then look at 3:52. Why are they moving around black and white stills and superimposing a line where they deem fit? Why, in 2014, do we not have 2014 technology?

Now before anyone says there's only 1 still and they need to super impose a line.........

Look closely at 3:52. Do you mean to tell me the 9 inch mirror only takes 1 pic? Of course not. They can't use that 1 pic for the 3rd finisher because by the time the 3rd finisher hits the wire, the 4th horse may have caught the 3rd finisher. Of course not because it takes multiple sets of pictures in nanoseconds.

So again... why do I as a horseplayer have to be vulnerable to steward #1/placing judge #2 etc. Playing PhotoShop with my $85,000 last leg of my pick 6 photo?

I'm sorry if this truth has ruined someone's innocent view of photo's. The truth hurts. Most importantly it hurts us as horseplayers. It's time this ambiguity be eliminated.

If I am wrong and photos have improved over the years, id love to know how and i'd be the first, second, third and fourth person to say I was wrong and I am sorry.

[Jeff P]

If any new race fan threw his hands up after a close call and said, "I can't handle this ancient technology" and walks away, he was probably looking for the quickest available out in the first place. Not all tracks are created equal, and none but Dubai can compete with the Olympics. Jeff P deserves a ton of respect, but this is just silly.

It's not that the way photo finishes are handled as a stand alone is a deal breaker. (Clearly it's not.) On the list of things that need to be addressed in racing video presentation and photo finishes is down there towards the bottom of the list. But it absolutely DOES have an effect, albeit a small one.

In business, every thing you do right and every thing you do wrong incrementally drives your trend lines for market share and total customer spend on the product.

Your trend lines are no accident. They are a direct result of how well you first identify and then satisfy you customer needs and wants.

In business, you bear an opportunity cost for doing something wrong when you could be doing that same thing right.


CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index)

Let's say for the sake of argument it is possible to develop a scale that represents customer satisfaction for a business. (Hint: Racing is a business.)

Let's further say for the sake of argument that on our CSI scale any value greater than 1.00 represents customers who are satisfied, any value less than 1.00 represents customers who are (in general) dissatisfied, and that a value of exactly 1.00 represents customer neutrality.

Let's further say for the sake of argument that the higher the final value on the scale: The greater the degree of customer satisfaction and the better the job we are doing in recognizing and satisfying customer needs and wants.

Management teams that are able to (first) accurately recognize customer needs and wants and who then make it their mission to satisfy those customer needs and wants have a greater likelihood of generating growth and trend lines that slope UP.

Conversely, let's also say for the sake of argument that the lower the scale value the lower the amount of customer satisfaction among the customers of the business.

Management teams that can't or outright refuse to (first) accurately recognize customer needs and wants and who then make minimal or no effort to satisfy those customer needs and wants have a greater likelihood of generating trend lines that slope DOWN.

If you study case histories of failed companies you'll realize most failed companies did so as a direct result of business decisions made that failed to satisfy customer needs and wants.

I'll use simple impact values to create a theoretical CSI for a race track.

Admittedly there are other models for doing this that involve calculus and curves. But to keep things simple I'll keep things linear and base the model on simple impact values.

First, let's identify a handful of factors that drive customer spend on the product:

Gaming experience driven by takeout & breakage at 22% blended with parimutuel payoffs rounded to the nearest 20 cents vs. similar gaming experience available from other venues such as casino, poker, lottery, etc.: 0.5250

Integrity issues such as odds and payoffs that change after the bell: 0.6750

Integrity issues related to drugs/slap on the wrist penalties, etc.: 0.7125

Avg field size 6.89 for the races on today's card vs. field size for historical norm: 0.8275

Source market/signal fee along with number of hoops customer is required to jump through in order to use an ADW. This drives overall interest in the game for times when it is not possible to attend live racing: 0.8725

Video presentation (including photo finishes) that intuitively remind us of 1968: 0.9875

Let's say for purposes of discussion the track being illustrated does in fact offer full card simulcasting. Full card simulcasting offered (1.0275) as opposed to limited simulcasting (0.9625) as done in California: 1.0275

Cleanliness and overall appearance of the grounds relative to prices for admission and parking: 1.0325

Friendliness of on track staff: 1.0725



Customer Satisfaction Index Calculation - Race Track:

CSI = 1.00 x 0.5250 x 0.6750 x 0.7125 x 0.8275 x 0.8725 x 0.9875 x 1.0275 x 1.0325 x 1.0725
or
CSI = 0.2054



Customer Satisfaction Index Calculation - Casino:

Suppose for the sake of discussion we generate the same scale for a Casino where the scores for all of the integrity related items are neutral (1.0000), where admission and parking are always free (1.0000), and where the scores for cleanliness/appearance of the grounds along with friendliness of the staff are strong and identical to that of the track:

CSI = 1.00 x 1.0000 x 1.0325 x 1.0725
or
CSI = 1.1074




You may not agree with the values I used for the scores. (You may even disagree strongly with the values I used for the scores in this example.)

But the point of the example is this:

Even though video presentation of photo finishes is probably way down there on the list of things racing needs to address if it wants to compete for market share in the gambling market space...

In business EVERY SINGLE THING THAT YOU DO MATTERS.

In business (and make no mistake racing is a business) your trend lines for market share and total customer spend on the product are driven by your business decisions compounded.



The thing I fail to grasp is this:

Over the past 10 years or so, the market share and total customer spend on the product trend lines for racing are clearly down.

Why is it that EVERY identifiable factor driving those negative trend lines brought to the attention of track management, racing commissioners, and horsemen by players always draws the same response?

Oh that. Well that's not all that important.

I submit to you the idea that your downward trend lines are created by your business decisions. Your trend lines are driven by all of the things you do right and all the things you do wrong - even if at first glance you think the things you are doing wrong cannot possibly be that important to you.

The trend line speaks otherwise.


-jp

.

[EMD4ME]

Fantastic post. Well thought out and an excellent point.....

I hate to compare my minor dissatisfaction with photos to relationships but I feel compelled to do so. If it bothers the misses that I clip my nails in the bathroom (random example) and to me that is a minor issue, despite it being a medium issue to her, she might leave me one day if the complaints/dissatisfactions add up.

You must be concerned with all concerns, as long as they are legit or perceived to be legit by your client. Especially when they are easily rectifiable and not costly to eliminate.

[PaceAdvantage]

The amount of misinformation regarding photo finishes bandied about in this thread is staggering. You guys go on keep believing the fix is in...and the Yonkers story about every winner circled in the program beforehand is priceless.

It's entertaining when someone comes on this forum and is clearly yanking chains, but there are those still gullible enough to buy into the action... :lol: :lol:

[mountainman]

I worked for years as a placing judge and somehow missed all those sinister directives about which horses to put up. Players would be amazed at how little interest placing judges have in racing. It's a mundane, repetitive job, and the animals are just numbers.

Most-no, almost ALL- stewards fit the same profile: bland, colorless, businesslike people that couldn't care LESS about who wins or loses.

There just ARE no conspiracies to favor certain trainers or ensure a carryover..etc..etc. To bring off such plots would require way, WAY more attentiveness to the GAME, ITSELF, than the vast majority of officials are willing to devote.

Oh, and one more thing: racing officials LOVE to gossip, LUXURIATE in tattling on each other, and couldn't keep ANY conspiracy quiet for more than 10 minutes. Are you guys getting the picture here??

[tanner12oz]

I worked for years as a placing judge and somehow missed all those sinister directives about which horses to put up. Players would be amazed at how little interest placing judges have in racing. It's a mundane, repetitive job, and the animals are just numbers.

Most-no, almost ALL- stewards fit the same profile: bland, colorless, businesslike people that couldn't care LESS about who wins or loses.

There just ARE no conspiracies to favor certain trainers or ensure a carryover..etc..etc. To bring off such plots would require way, WAY more attentiveness to the GAME, ITSELF, than the vast majority of officials are willing to devote.

Oh, and one more thing: racing officials LOVE to gossip, LUXURIATE in tattling on each other, and couldn't keep ANY conspiracy quiet for more than 10 minutes. Are you guys getting the picture here??

I believe you they have zero interest in racing...it clearly shows. Maybe that's the problem? Maybe instead of having rejects from the Romanian curling judges board making racing decisions when the criteria is predicting outcomes if certain infractions did or didn't occur we have people who have a passion for the game. People who will not only make the decision but go that extra mile to explain the reason for that outcome...racing simply turns the page to the next race and makes things that occurred seconds before ancient history

[rastajenk]

Of course they have a "passion" for the game. They've only spent their entire adult lives, or more, devoted to it. What a goofy thing to say.

I've witnessed some spirited disagreements among stewards that would not have happened if they were all uninterested passionless robots. You can read m-man's comment a little too literally and get the wrong impression, but not only is he accurate, you as a bettor should want such people on the roof.

[ishman17]

Re: yonkers program with the winners circled.



i heard him tell this story as well.....btw it's craig carton.

[wisconsin]

The amount of misinformation regarding photo finishes bandied about in this thread is staggering. You guys go on keep believing the fix is in...and the Yonkers story about every winner circled in the program beforehand is priceless.

It's entertaining when someone comes on this forum and is clearly yanking chains, but there are those still gullible enough to buy into the action... :lol: :lol:


Some people are simply going to believe what they believe, despite the reality.

[Stillriledup]

Dead Heat for 3rd in the 5th race at Big A and it LOOKED :D like the inside horse really was in front...you know, even Greg Wolf "eyeballed it" and said "looks like the inside horse...."

Than he went on to say, albeit a bit sarcastically, "photos never lie"

Funny, i thought the same thing. Looks like the inside horse is more "thru the wire" than the outside horse.

[speed]

Funny, i thought the same thing. Looks like the inside horse is more "thru the wire" than the outside horse.
By thru the wire it sounds like you are looking at the horses rear ends and that the inside horse's backside is in front of the other. Looking at their noses it sure looked tight.

[098poi]

I believe you they have zero interest in racing...it clearly shows. Maybe that's the problem? Maybe instead of having rejects from the Romanian curling judges board making racing decisions when the criteria is predicting outcomes if certain infractions did or didn't occur we have people who have a passion for the game. People who will not only make the decision but go that extra mile to explain the reason for that outcome...racing simply turns the page to the next race and makes things that occurred seconds before ancient history

No need to drag curlers into this. You've never seen a disclaimer, "No animals were harmed during this match".

[Stillriledup]

By thru the wire it sounds like you are looking at the horses rear ends and that the inside horse's backside is in front of the other. Looking at their noses it sure looked tight.

What i mean by "thru the wire" is that the wire actually has some thickness, its not "Razor thin" and it looks like the inside horse is actually lapped under the photo of the wire moreso than the outside horse.

[tanner12oz]

This is 2014...why is where the heck the finish line is even a question..cant we use laser beams, satellites or something? Trakus was something new and interesting but racing is archaic in nature and technology compared to other sports...even baseball which is the last to adopt anything is waaaay ahead of racing in terms of heightening the fan experience, making things fair and creating transparency...

[mountainman]

What i mean by "thru the wire" is that the wire actually has some thickness, its not "Razor thin" and it looks like the inside horse is actually lapped under the photo of the wire moreso than the outside horse.

In placing judge lingo, that's called "burying" (the inside horse). I've seen it done to support dead heat calls when splitting hairs would likely result in controversy. Decades ago, I worked with a photo finish guy who would actually thicken the wire in those instances.

[Stillriledup]

In placing judge lingo, that's called "burying" (the inside horse). I've seen it done to support dead heat calls when splitting hairs would likely result in controversy. Decades ago, I worked with a photo finish guy who would actually thicken the wire in those instances.

Thank you. I knew this wasnt a DH, just as i knew the Smash "DH" wasnt a dead heat. I don't have the best eyesight, but its good enough to see when a tie isnt a tie.

[tanner12oz]

In placing judge lingo, that's called "burying" (the inside horse). I've seen it done to support dead heat calls when splitting hairs would likely result in controversy. Decades ago, I worked with a photo finish guy who would actually thicken the wire in those instances.

wouldn't an overhead easily solve the issues of "hidden" horses from side angles?

[wiffleball whizz]

Crooked as wresting

I can't believe PA thinks were crazy......

Hey PA if we make it up to the spa this year I may have u believing horses are taking envelopes in the derby :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Deep down I think u know that photos are not sometimes legit

[EMD4ME]

Re: yonkers program with the winners circled.



i heard him tell this story as well.....btw it's craig carton.


Sorry, you're absolutely right, did mean Craig Carton. Doubt he had a reason to lie. I think I remember him saying every 2nd place finisher was predetermined too.

[EMD4ME]

Some people are simply going to believe what they believe, despite the reality.

Some people will believe reality, despite what they are told to believe :)

[Stillriledup]

Some people will believe reality, despite what they are told to believe :)

Exactamundo. :ThmbUp:

[andtheyreoff]

Dead Heat for 3rd in the 5th race at Big A and it LOOKED :D like the inside horse really was in front...you know, even Greg Wolf "eyeballed it" and said "looks like the inside horse...."

Than he went on to say, albeit a bit sarcastically, "photos never lie"

Funny, i thought the same thing. Looks like the inside horse is more "thru the wire" than the outside horse.

Did you actually see the photo for this race? I couldn't seperate them even when I zoomed it in: http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/photo-finish/20140117/race5/show/

[Stillriledup]

Did you actually see the photo for this race? I couldn't seperate them even when I zoomed it in: http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/photo-finish/20140117/race5/show/

I saw the photo!

I'm from the school that says if racing had a camera worth a million dollars and it was able to seperate horses down to microscopic particles, you would never see a dead heat, the odds on two horses being exactly tied are millions to one, when you get down to micro particles that are invisible to the naked eye.

The racing industry "cant afford" a camera high tech enough to separate all horses, so they have to do it the 1930's way and just call it a dead heat. Read Mountainman's post very carefully, its a few up from this one.

[EMD4ME]

Did you actually see the photo for this race? I couldn't seperate them even when I zoomed it in: http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/photo-finish/20140117/race5/show/


I think this is an example of mountain man's point. The rail horse's nose does look to be "buried" a bit by a slightly thicker wire.

[Stillriledup]

I think this is an example of mountain man's point. The rail horse's nose does look to be "buried" a bit by a slightly thicker wire.

Here's another example of a burial, the outside horse wins clean if you make the wire as thin as you can make it and still have it visible to the naked eye.

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/photo-finish/20130531/race4/win/

[EMD4ME]

Here's another example of a burial, the outside horse wins clean if you make the wire as thin as you can make it and still have it visible to the naked eye.

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/photo-finish/20130531/race4/win/


That one is very close. I am not 100% sure I see the 3's nose touching that wire & it is quite possible the 5's nose was buried ever so slightly.

[wiffleball whizz]

I love this new term of a horses nose buried.....;;

[EMD4ME]

I love this new term of a horses nose buried.....;;

Buried like the truth? Lol. Just kidding! (99% just kidding, 1% serious)

[therussmeister]

This is 2014...why is where the heck the finish line is even a question..cant we use laser beams, satellites or something? Trakus was something new and interesting but racing is archaic in nature and technology compared to other sports...even baseball which is the last to adopt anything is waaaay ahead of racing in terms of heightening the fan experience, making things fair and creating transparency...
TRAKUS is a lot less accurate than the technologically archaic photo-finish camera.

[mountainman]

This is 2014...why is where the heck the finish line is even a question..cant we use laser beams, .

Dr Evil? Is that you?

[PaceAdvantage]

Crooked as wresting

I can't believe PA thinks were crazy......

Hey PA if we make it up to the spa this year I may have u believing horses are taking envelopes in the derby :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Deep down I think u know that photos are not sometimes legitOnce people start agreeing on what the photo is actually showing you (line or no line, "steel beam" or no "steel beam," whatever that is), maybe then we can all have an intelligent conversation on the subject.

[PaceAdvantage]

I saw the photo!

I'm from the school that says if racing had a camera worth a million dollars and it was able to seperate horses down to microscopic particles, you would never see a dead heat, the odds on two horses being exactly tied are millions to one, when you get down to micro particles that are invisible to the naked eye.

The racing industry "cant afford" a camera high tech enough to separate all horses, so they have to do it the 1930's way and just call it a dead heat. Read Mountainman's post very carefully, its a few up from this one.1930s way? Have you recently (or EVER) stepped foot in the room where they look at photos (the last 5-10 years)? I have.

[PaceAdvantage]

Did you actually see the photo for this race? I couldn't seperate them even when I zoomed it in: http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/photo-finish/20140117/race5/show/Don't bother. They entertain themselves with tails of skulduggery. It probably helps soften the blow of losing money. We all do it to some extent I suppose.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Larceny, photo technology, and business motivations aside, did we the fans ever get to see the photo from this race (Oaklawn, R9, Saturday, January 11th, 2014)? :(

Thumbs up to NYRA for having the race photos posted on an easy to use calendar.... :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Larceny, photo technology, and business motivations aside, did we the fans ever get to see the photo from this race (Oaklawn, R9, Saturday, January 11th, 2014)? :(

Thumbs up to NYRA for having the race photos posted on an easy to use calendar.... :ThmbUp:According to some, what does it matter if we the fans ever get to see the photo. According to some, they just doctor the photo however they wish the result to be... :rolleyes:

[Saratoga_Mike]

According to some, what does it matter if we the fans ever get to see the photo. According to some, they just doctor the photo however they wish the result to be... :rolleyes:

...this camp also believes NFL games are fixed by the commissioner's office

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Well, I think the fans have a legitimate gripe about the photos not being posted - it really should be incorporated into the results charts - and - better yet, a picture of the whole field as the winner hits the line, like they do for Hong Kong.

As for the NFL, Saratoga Mike, all I can say is like the NBA, those crappy teams at home sometimes come up with amazing wins - good for ticket sales, ya know..... :)

[Stillriledup]

...this camp also believes NFL games are fixed by the commissioner's office

Don't forget the NBA too. ;)

[tanner12oz]

Larceny, photo technology, and business motivations aside, did we the fans ever get to see the photo from this race (Oaklawn, R9, Saturday, January 11th, 2014)? :(

Thumbs up to NYRA for having the race photos posted on an easy to use calendar.... :ThmbUp:

nothing was ever made available to the public other then on the simulcast feed post race...was told by the track that they won't give out a photo

[Saratoga_Mike]

Well, I think the fans have a legitimate gripe about the photos not being posted - it really should be incorporated into the results charts - and - better yet, a picture of the whole field as the winner hits the line, like they do for Hong Kong.

As for the NFL, Saratoga Mike, all I can say is like the NBA, those crappy teams at home sometimes come up with amazing wins - good for ticket sales, ya know..... :)

Of course, of course - the commissioner's office already knows who will win the Super Bowl

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Of course, of course - the commissioner's office already knows who will win the Super Bowl

The Super Bowl does not involve a crappy team playing at home.

It usually involves a couple of so-so teams playing in a warm spot, though this year the reward for the conference champs is a trip to New Jersey.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...was told by the track that they won't give out a photo

If that is true as stated, that is pretty unbelievable and rather pathetic.

[wiffleball whizz]

Still looking for tracks with steel beams....

Finger lakes
Hawthorne


Gotta be some more

[tanner12oz]

If that is true as stated, that is pretty unbelievable and rather pathetic.

call frank at oaklawn and ask him actual words were "were not allowed to give out photos to fan" he asked someone else while I was on the phone with him..if someone else gets it make sure you post it. Oaklawn said they were aware of this thread...why on earth they haven't shut this thread up with action is beyond me...in all honesty they weren't exactly happy about the thread and they felt as if people were accusing them of fraud...ive stated numerous times that its not fraud in accusing anyone of just horrible customer service...oaklawn pr is asleep at the wheel imo

[Stillriledup]

call frank at oaklawn and ask him actual words were "were not allowed to give out photos to fan" he asked someone else while I was on the phone with him..if someone else gets it make sure you post it. Oaklawn said they were aware of this thread...why on earth they haven't shut this thread up with action is beyond me...in all honesty they weren't exactly happy about the thread and they felt as if people were accusing them of fraud...ive stated numerous times that its not fraud in accusing anyone of just horrible customer service...oaklawn pr is asleep at the wheel imo

Glad to see they are aware of this thread, maybe they can read PA and learn a little bit about the game from people who forgot more about this sport than they'll ever hope to know.

[rastajenk]

Well, you sure as hell aren't one of them. :p

[comet52]

call frank at oaklawn and ask him actual words were "were not allowed to give out photos to fan" he asked someone else while I was on the phone with him..if someone else gets it make sure you post it. Oaklawn said they were aware of this thread...why on earth they haven't shut this thread up with action is beyond me...in all honesty they weren't exactly happy about the thread and they felt as if people were accusing them of fraud...ive stated numerous times that its not fraud in accusing anyone of just horrible customer service...oaklawn pr is asleep at the wheel imo

Since they're aware that more than one fan wants to see the photo, why don't they just post it to their website? That would not be "giving photos to a fan" or whatever nonsense is being touted as rationale for their refusal to come clean.

The easiest way to shut the doubters up is to produce the photo, not to produce a "spokesman who assures you". What harm could there possibly be in releasing the photo, after all?

[johnhannibalsmith]

I can, to a degree, understand a track not wanting to get in the business of running off to the photographer with the photo file in hand asking for a print of a finish to send off to someone every time a guy or gal questions a placing.

(although I think I still have in my archives somewhere a fantastic two-page expletive laced diatribe addressed to the stewards that had me doing just that to mail off to a NYC OTB for display...)

But as has been stated umpteen times throughout this novel, this is the year 2009 or so, and there really aren't any shortage of alternative ways to accomplish the same end without setting any sort of precedent like that.

[mountainman]

I can, to a degree, understand a track not wanting to get in the business of running off to the photographer with the photo file in hand asking for a print of a finish to send off to someone every time a guy or gal questions a placing.



Yeah, we used to have some screwy open-door policy in the placing stand that encouraged aggrieved horsemen and players to come up and watch us work. In theory, they would see that the process is virtually infallible and then leave happy. But instead, we ended up with guys that lost by a head staring STRAIGHT at the print and still insisting they'd been jammed-and by us on purpose, no less.

What I learned from that is this: NObody who disputes a photo has the slightest intention of being placated or otherwise convinced, no matter WHAT the evidence. They want paid, or they want somebody fired. It's that simple. We batted, like, 1 for 20 on convincing enraged visitors that we weren't crooked,

[HoofedInTheChest]

Since they're aware that more than one fan wants to see the photo, why don't they just post it to their website? That would not be "giving photos to a fan" or whatever nonsense is being touted as rationale for their refusal to come clean.

The easiest way to shut the doubters up is to produce the photo, not to produce a "spokesman who assures you". What harm could there possibly be in releasing the photo, after all?
That's a bit odd they don't post photos on their website, Woodbine posts all photos from every race on their site. I don't believe a lot of what's being said in this thread, but it makes you wonder when the bettor isn't given access, it's a lack of transparency.

Carry on gents....

[Hoofless_Wonder]

nothing was ever made available to the public other then on the simulcast feed post race...was told by the track that they won't give out a photo

Well, that's a fine how do. I didn't recall seeing the photo EVER being shown, and the 10+ minute replay of the race mostly shows the :10: horse being led in a circle waiting on the results of the inquiry.

Oaklawn was one of the first tracks with a web site back in the mid 1990s, and it was pretty nice, but apparently the knucklehead "trust us" crew is running things now.

It's one thing to debate whether or not the photo is doctored, but what does it tell us when we never get to see a photo? :confused:

[hogoffate]

As I waited nervously through the inquiry I never saw a photo on the feed either
Surely they can produce the photo. I don't believe there's any intentional wrong doing anywhere on photo finishes but would just like to see how close it was

[hogoffate]

1/20
OP just posted photo finish from 1st today
Pretty close finish. Haha

[tanner12oz]

Well I don't know what to say..there answer to me was I should have been watching the track feed...however even guys on the track feed don't know what's going on

[Stillriledup]

Well I don't know what to say..there answer to me was I should have been watching the track feed...however even guys on the track feed don't know what's going on

They're essentially saying to you that they don't want your business.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

They're essentially saying to you that they don't want your business.

It sure seems that way. As much as it was thrilling to watch the :10: horse being led in a circle for 7 minutes during the inquiry, the folks in the production booth could have shown the photo for 15 seconds.

[Stillriledup]

It sure seems that way. As much as it was thrilling to watch the :10: horse being led in a circle for 7 minutes during the inquiry, the folks in the production booth could have shown the photo for 15 seconds.

You would think, right?