i just bought

[lamboguy]

a program from 1935 from Narragansett Park the day that Sea Biscuit broke his maiden after 17 starts. its in mint condition, i payed pretty good to buy it too!

if i can figure out how to take a picture of it, i will post it. i have to wait for my wife to come home today to do it.

[Stillriledup]

Wow, that's a nice souvenir to have, we would love to see it!

[classhandicapper]

a program from 1935 from Narragansett Park the day that Sea Biscuit broke his maiden after 17 starts. its in mint condition, i payed pretty good to buy it too!

if i can figure out how to take a picture of it, i will post it. i have to wait for my wife to come home today to do it.

Where can you get good horse racing memorabilia like that?

I've been thinking of starting a collection.

[Stillriledup]

Where can you get good horse racing memorabilia like that?

I've been thinking of starting a collection.

There's a lot of stuff on Ebay.

[lamboguy]

this was not real, its a copy.........i am getting my money back

[mountainman]

I had one of John Henry's leather halters, complete with nameplate. I gave it to my brother as a xmas gift.

[mountainman]

this was not real, its a copy.........i am getting my money back

What a letdown. How much did you pay, phil, two or three hundred? Even a bit more?

[devilsbag]

What would Kelso's nuts be worth?

[lamboguy]

What a letdown. How much did you pay, phil, two or three hundred? Even a bit more?
i am getting my money back, but i paid $800.. do you happen to know what the mutuel payoffs were on that race, or how to find out?


all is not that bad, i hit an exacta today at Beulah that paid $222 with a 2/5 shot running second!

[tonypp]

sure,your getting sand back.If you bought it from Ebay GL

[mountainman]

i am getting my money back, but i paid $800.. do you happen to know what the mutuel payoffs were on that race, or how to find out?


all is not that bad, i hit an exacta today at Beulah that paid $222 with a 2/5 shot running second!

I can find out what seabiscuit paid to win-from a copy of "champions" I have.

[lamboguy]

this is the item that i have, i don't think its real

http://www.etsy.com/listing/164094946/seabiscuit-program-1935-narragansett

[Saratoga_Mike]

this is the item that i have, i don't think its real

http://www.etsy.com/listing/164094946/seabiscuit-program-1935-narragansett

Why is it still for sale? You purchased it, no? The $250,000 number is funny. I'd place the value at $200 to $500, at least that's the range I'd consider paying for it.

[OntheRail]

May I ask why you feel it's a fake.. copy?

I know they said the piece on the backside was a copied color print. But if you look at the framed one with a loop you should be able to see how the ink lays on the paper. The original would of been hand set text and offset printed. Also look at the pencil marks and how it was folded.. any light smudging transfer from years of being in contact? Look at the folds themselves do the have age?

Could take a trip to Vegas and stop by the Pawn Shop... have Rick bring in his Document guy to look at it. I'll send you a PaceAdvantage hat for you to ware on the show if you decide to go. :D

If it is wrong I hope you do get your funds back.

Saratoga_Mike the framing job would of cost at least 2 bills.. so your low end buys the frame.

[Tape Reader]

May I ask why you feel it's a fake.. copy?

The original would of been hand set text and offset printed.

Could take a trip to Vegas and stop by the Pawn Shop... have Rick bring in his Document guy to look at it. I'll send you a PaceAdvantage hat for you to ware on the show if you decide to go. :D


I doubt that the type would have been “hand set” in 1935. If so, the program would have missed Post Time, even at Tampa. It was probably set on a Linotype machine, which was invented by Ottmar Mergenthaler in the 1880s.

Also, if it was printed “letter press” rather than “offset” which would be more likely, impression could be felt on the back of the paper. (I saw Rick miss similar on Pawn Stars.)

[OntheRail]

Tape Reader


"Offset" wrong vernacular right thought on my part... inked and contacted printed.

Hand set.. could be as you would not need to be setting the entire program block day to day. The main layout would not change and the elements copy blocks such as race conditions would move as a whole. And with this being a track program not DRF, back in the day could of been printed right at the track say a few days before.

[mountainman]

Tape Reader


"Offset" wrong vernacular right thought on my part... inked and contacted printed.

Hand set.. could be as you would not need to be setting the entire program block day to day. The main layout would not change and the elements copy blocks such as race conditions would move as a whole. And with this being a track program not DRF, back in the day could of been printed right at the track say a few days before.

Love your expertise on this. Mnr prints its own programs in a big, antiquated shop right next to our racing office, and I'm always transfixed when I stop in.

Not that it matters, but it's doubtful, however, that Narragansett was on such a loose entry schedule. Within my lifetime, some tracks took just 24 hours in advance. The Morning Telegraph, of course, wasn't available before race-day.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

With so much money in "collectables" of all varieties, I wouldn't be surprised if the "fakes" outnumber the authentic, especially on the web. Prior to the internet you had least had a chance of the shop dealer being a bit of a stopgap measure, but nowadays, it's just too easy to fake not only details about something, but fake references and reviews as well.

A buddy of mine back in the early 1980s paid something like five hundred dollars for a "limited" print of a Salvador Dali painting. In the early 90s I recall the scandal when it had been discovered that "limited" was often redefined, and reset, when the dealers visited a new part of the country. :D I lost touch with my buddy years ago, but I sometimes wonder if he ever got it authenticated, as much as a print can be authenticated. I do have him to thank for introducing me to the sport of racing though - it was his idea to "check out" the harness races at the Aroostook Country Fair, and the rest is history....

[classhandicapper]

this was not real, its a copy.........i am getting my money back

That's why I've been cautious about buying anything, including autographed photos.

[davew]

if you got the item from etsy, I also am curious how you know it is a copy.

[Tape Reader]

Tape Reader


"Offset" wrong vernacular right thought on my part... inked and contacted printed.

Hand set.. could be as you would not need to be setting the entire program block day to day. The main layout would not change and the elements copy blocks such as race conditions would move as a whole. And with this being a track program not DRF, back in the day could of been printed right at the track say a few days before.

I still don’t think that it was “hand set.” The “comp” (compositor) would simply “PU” (pick-up what was useful) and replace NG with new type. It was probably a combination of Ludlow and Linotype. Ludlow is where characters, “mats” are placed individually in a “stick”, locked in place and cast with hot metal.

An excellent way to determine if it was Linotype would be to locate several lines of text. Examine closely between lower case letters for “hair lines” between the letters. Hair lines are where the metal shoots up between worn out “mats” (matrix) when casting the line. Lower case letters “o” and “e” are particularly vulnerable as the letter extends almost to the outside wall of the mat. After extended use the wall breaks down causing “hair lines” between the letters when the line is cast.

[OntheRail]

I still don’t think that it was “hand set.” The “comp” (compositor) would simply “PU” (pick-up what was useful) and replace NG with new type. It was probably a combination of Ludlow and Linotype. Ludlow is where characters, “mats” are placed individually in a “stick”, locked in place and cast with hot metal.

An excellent way to determine if it was Linotype would be to locate several lines of text. Examine closely between lower case letters for “hair lines” between the letters. Hair lines are where the metal shoots up between worn out “mats” (matrix) when casting the line. Lower case letters “o” and “e” are particularly vulnerable as the letter extends almost to the outside wall of the mat. After extended use the wall breaks down causing “hair lines” between the letters when the line is cast.

I don't doubt that elements of the program could not have been fixed then hand placed into the layout.. the logo block for example or the conditions. But I would also believe that other portions would have been done using movable type making up copy blocks it just seems to be a more economical way of doing it at the time and for what it is. How many Track Programs do you think they would of run off on a Wednesday or a Saturday for that matter in 1935? mountainman how many do you guys print for a weekday race?
A platen press can run off 2500+ impressions in an hour.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Platen_Printing_press.jpg/450px-Platen_Printing_press.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ktxjd6fMLr1qa54cm.gif

Granted printing is not my forte and on my end pure speculation as how or if they did it (the track). But being a practical guy it's the route I'd of taken it being flexible and sufficient to get the job cranked out.

[Robert Goren]

All thing considered, I would a lot of doubt that a real thing even still exist today. I would want a pretty good story line why the program was kept.

[thespaah]

a program from 1935 from Narragansett Park the day that Sea Biscuit broke his maiden after 17 starts. its in mint condition, i payed pretty good to buy it too!

if i can figure out how to take a picture of it, i will post it. i have to wait for my wife to come home today to do it.
Can you scan the program cover and the Seabiscuit race page and post it?
Please?