Sports betting

[cosmicway]

Do you have sports betting outside horse racing in America -e.g. soccer- like we do in Europe ?
Or none whatsoever ?
Several years ago one told me "you write about horses but I saw a word or two you say about Manchester United in the champions league - this therefore makes your stuff illegal in the States". Was he kidding ? I did indeed write something about the chances of Man. United as I recall but there were no betting company banners on display.

[ishman17]

yes...you can bet almost any sport in vegas...and i believe in delaware as well...i think DE only offer paralys though...and not sure what other sports they offer other than the NFL.

[cosmicway]

yes...you can bet almost any sport in vegas...and i believe in delaware as well...i think DE only offer paralys though...and not sure what other sports they offer other than the NFL.

So there is some restriction.
I recall MU were taking on Chelsea then - match decided on penalties.
So the guy could have been right.
If someone read my stuff from USA though in foreign language, I was inducing him !

[horses4courses]

So there is some restriction.
I recall MU were taking on Chelsea then - match decided on penalties.
So the guy could have been right.
If someone read my stuff from USA though in foreign language, I was inducing him !

I have over 20 years work experience in sports wagering in Europe, and the US.
You're right....there are many restrictions placed upon it here.

Don't get me started on the topic, though.
I sound like a broken record - even to myself. ;)

[Johnny V]

yes...you can bet almost any sport in vegas...and i believe in delaware as well...i think DE only offer paralys though...and not sure what other sports they offer other than the NFL.

DEL offers betting on the NFL and that is it as far as I am aware of. Also only parlays and such.

[Stillriledup]

So there is some restriction.
I recall MU were taking on Chelsea then - match decided on penalties.
So the guy could have been right.
If someone read my stuff from USA though in foreign language, I was inducing him !

Yes, America has the shackles on sports bettors. They have no problem selling alcohol or tobacco, but chicken little might fall out of the sky if any of their residents makes a sports bet. God forbid.

[Ocala Mike]

A government-run or sanctioned national sports betting operation run at the standard "vig" rates would solve our deficit problems for the foreseeable future.

Won't ever happen, of course, because of the bible belt, Las Vegas interests, pro sports team owners, college conferences, etc.

[onefast99]

Within the next few years Monmouth Park in NJ will have sports wagering.

[Longshot6977]

Within the next few years Monmouth Park in NJ will have sports wagering.

Actually, less time than that. And it may be from your home PC, just like what was recently done with online casino gambling in NJ. Gov Christie really wants this to happen.

[therussmeister]

A government-run or sanctioned national sports betting operation run at the standard "vig" rates would solve our deficit problems for the foreseeable future.

Won't ever happen, of course, because of the bible belt, Las Vegas interests, pro sports team owners, college conferences, etc.
A government run operation would never stay at standard "vig" rates. Every budget debate Congress has would end in bipartisan agreement on only one issue; raise the"vig" rates.

[Stillriledup]

A government run operation would never stay at standard "vig" rates. Every budget debate Congress has would end in bipartisan agreement on only one issue; raise the"vig" rates.

Its -110 on both sides. If they raise it, their handle will be miniscule. Who's betting at -111 or higher?

[horses4courses]

Its -110 on both sides. If they raise it, their handle will be miniscule. Who's betting at -111 or higher?

If....and it's a very big IF .......sports wagering ever became legalized in more states than at present, realize one thing - the government (state or otherwise) will never act as a bookmaker.
If they were to be even remotely associated with it, say like the lottery, it would need to be a pari-mutuel setup.
What their rake from that would be, your guess is as good as mine.

They would never put themselves in a position to lose money - there would be no minus pools.
That potential situation, in itself, makes it a pipe dream.
Therefore, it would either be in an exchange wagering mode,
or independent bookmakers would be permitted to operate under government regulations.

It's a long way off. Most of us probably won't be around for it.
It will happen someday, though.

[Stillriledup]

If....and it's a very big IF .......sports wagering ever became legalized in more states than at present, realize one thing - the government (state or otherwise) will never act as a bookmaker.
If they were to be even remotely associated with it, say like the lottery, it would need to be a pari-mutuel setup.
What their rake from that would be, your guess is as good as mine.

They would never put themselves in a position to lose money - there would be no minus pools.
That potential situation, in itself, makes it a pipe dream.
Therefore, it would either be in an exchange wagering mode,
or independent bookmakers would be permitted to operate under government regulations.

It's a long way off. Most of us probably won't be around for it.
It will happen someday, though.

I hear you, no doubt, they would have to hire out companies to make oddslines, book bets and then they would get a "cut" of the profits.

It is tricky how that would work, but if the government is the bookie, its not likely the odds would be even acceptable. Maybe -140 on each side or some other nonsense.

I wonder how they could make it "parimutuel"? Any thoughts?

[horses4courses]

I hear you, no doubt, they would have to hire out companies to make oddslines, book bets and then they would get a "cut" of the profits.

It is tricky how that would work, but if the government is the bookie, its not likely the odds would be even acceptable. Maybe -140 on each side or some other nonsense.

I wonder how they could make it "parimutuel"? Any thoughts?

You can make pari-mutuel sports wagering.
Same basic concept as the races.
Pools would have to be kept pretty basic - separate pools for straight bets, parlays, etc.
You could have separate parlay pools from 2-picks up to, say, 15 or 20.
The straight bet pools would, likely, be the most complicated with the potential for one-sided action.
Also, for example, key injuries cause large line movement, which would cause the closure of a pool at one number,
and then re-opening it at a new number.

The linesmakers would have to have impeccable credentials.
Dangers of manipulation would be real, and they would have to be monitored closely.

It's complicated, but it definitely could be achieved.
The $ handle would be potentially enormous, which makes it an attractive prospect.

[Stillriledup]

You can make pari-mutuel sports wagering.
Same basic concept as the races.
Pools would have to be kept pretty basic - separate pools for straight bets, parlays, etc.
You could have separate parlay pools from 2-picks up to, say, 15 or 20.
The straight bet pools would, likely, be the most complicated with the potential for one-sided action.
Also, for example, key injuries cause large line movement, which would cause the closure of a pool at one number,
and then re-opening it at a new number.

The linesmakers would have to have impeccable credentials.
Dangers of manipulation would be real, and they would have to be monitored closely.

It's complicated, but it definitely could be achieved.
The $ handle would be potentially enormous, which makes it an attractive prospect.

I think the key to sports betting vs horse betting is that you are locked into your price when you bet...in racing, you have to accept the price that shows up on the board after the race is 30 seconds in.

There has to be a way to "lock in" odds ...i dont know too many sports bettors who would be making wagers and they "hoping" they get a good price.

[cosmicway]

There is no problem in making anything into paris-mutuel.
All you need is some software that produces accurate displays of the prices as they stand now.
You can't close the price in paris-mutuel. If the pool is big then you may get what it more or less shows. If the pool is small you read 10.00 and it ends up 3.40.
This however does n't make me a supporter of fixed odds betting.
The disadvantages of fixed odds betting are as follows:

1 - The company acquires a vested interest in the outcome.
2 - The company adopts big brother tactics against the punter and they lean real heavy.
3 - Maybe they won't have money to pay you.
4 - The company's statisticians are high caliber pros and you are up against them.

While the problems (1), (2) and (3) may be of lesser intensity with reputable companies, problem (4) always exists.

As for rakes our governments are like Stalin-Beria-KGB and if you decide to vote conservative they say to you "ah but you did n't know we are a little socialist as well".
As the handles go down they say "we will find methods to create victims" and although that does n't work all the time, they keep researching it.

The state's so called protection against addiction is the biggest scam ever. When they say "we will create games of chance to attract women" it's an open admisssion of the scam. Everyone knows the women are inexperienced and will be destroyed.

[comet52]

About 14 years ago when I lived in Vegas for a time, the sportsbooks were all getting p.r. pieces published in local rags about how they had to have parimutuel wagering to survive, and they actually put electronic betting terminals in casinos that were parimutuel but, surprise, no one used them.

It was pure presumption on their part - first, puff about their "survival" as if that were a real issue, then come up with a system that doubled the vig and assume players will buy into it because players are so stupid. That is same mentality that horseracing has about the gamblers whose money makes the game possible. They're so dumb, we'll just rape them whenever and wherever we feel.

Then again, if were were going to have government run sportsbetting, I'm sure a huge vig parimutuel system would be their first choice and who knows, maybe enough people are desperate enough to use it. They sell a lot of lottery tickets in this country too.

[burnsy]

Do you have sports betting outside horse racing in America -e.g. soccer- like we do in Europe ?
Or none whatsoever ?
Several years ago one told me "you write about horses but I saw a word or two you say about Manchester United in the champions league - this therefore makes your stuff illegal in the States". Was he kidding ? I did indeed write something about the chances of Man. United as I recall but there were no betting company banners on display.

What are you talking about............Freedom? We are "corporate slaves" and the states have a bunch of "rip off" bets that are legal. There are the two places people mentioned, the rest of us have to have a bookie. My bookie has been popped before. For all the flag waving people do, they have bullshit rules here that could be abolished in a heartbeat and it would be a better place. We have the "puritain hypocrites" and the "money" keeping us in our place :ThmbDown: Its a joke, it really is, everyone bets football. But theres always the "sheeple" that either defend it, or abide by it. They caught the govt. spying and lying to people, red handed. Theres millions of jackasses defending this too. Basically, this country has become a pitiful state of affairs. You can't even make up shit like this.......but its how we live.

[cosmicway]

What are you talking about............Freedom? We are "corporate slaves" and the states have a bunch of "rip off" bets that are legal. There are the two places people mentioned, the rest of us have to have a bookie. My bookie has been popped before. For all the flag waving people do, they have bullshit rules here that could be abolished in a heartbeat and it would be a better place. We have the "puritain hypocrites" and the "money" keeping us in our place :ThmbDown: Its a joke, it really is, everyone bets football. But theres always the "sheeple" that either defend it, or abide by it. They caught the govt. spying and lying to people, red handed. Theres millions of jackasses defending this too. Basically, this country has become a pitiful state of affairs. You can't even make up shit like this.......but its how we live.

The government may give the job to private operators who are more user firendly but they can still tax it to make things impossible.
An archaic sort of mentality exists. By the same token I should not be allowed to look into the food market for the best bargain prices but ordered about where to shop.

[moneyandland]

Why is this thread here for 5 days but every post concerning harness racing is moved, even when it's just to show a freak incident???

[thaskalos]

Because harness racing is fixed...and everybody knows it. :)

[davew]

For most of the country, sportsbetting is NOT legal - although it probably occurs about everywhere.

[horses4courses]

For most of the country, sportsbetting is NOT legal - although it probably occurs about everywhere.

Yep.
It ranks a close second to breathing.

[cosmicway]

The number of people who like economic junta is making me crazy.
Alright, if you are oil magnate it's fair play.
But the simple mugs in the street ???
And if economic junta favours you one day what about the next day ?

The difference between democracy and dictatorship is not the mumbo jumbo you read in the books.
It's about who orders whom about what and why.
If der fuhrer drops dead I have a chance of becoming the new fuhrer but only if I have my luger pistol on the ready. If by accident I put some papers in my drawer and the luger pistol is pushed back a little, then Lavrenti Beria gets me and it's curtains.

[davew]

the democracy in this country has turned into paid influence in the form of campaign donations for the next election and gifts/favors by lobbyists

the people who donate/gift the most, get the most influence for laws



it is possible that it has always been this way, and have taken a long time to figure it out:kiss:



the government has been running lotteries, but less than half of that gets returned.

[cosmicway]

the democracy in this country has turned into paid influence in the form of campaign donations for the next election and gifts/favors by lobbyists

the people who donate/gift the most, get the most influence for laws

it is possible that it has always been this way, and have taken a long time to figure it out:kiss:

the government has been running lotteries, but less than half of that gets returned.

This is part of the game though.
If you are congressman you have many visitors, asking for new bridges, new rivers and other things.
But it's the same feeling as when visiting in a website. If the website says to us "click here - 10 dollar gift - no strings attached", we click. If it says mormon prayers we fall asleep.

[burnsy]

But, "Hey you never know".....thats the ad for NY States crooked lotto scheme where they pre determine the odds on their crummy scratchies...but betting actual lines and REAL odds is illegal...a freaking joke. Lottos and scratchies.....good.........actual gaming with a fair chance......bad. Some jackass will even come on TV and tell you how you'll go to hell for it too.....:rolleyes:

"Its illegal you know...." :lol:

[DeltaLover]

the democracy in this country has turned into paid influence in the form of campaign donations for the next election and gifts/favors by lobbyists

Still the democracy in this country is the best among all the countries in the world. Maybe bot perfect, but there is nothing better today or at any other time in history.

[cosmicway]

The driving force is to create economic juntas.
Everything under the microscope.
These days when you have a toothache (or aching tooth) and you go to a kiosk the guv gives you an aspirin and sometimes he charges 5 cents for it, sometimes he does n't. This will now have to be entered into a log book signed by the party's ideological commitee.
No more money but computed points. And big brother makes them zero for you whenever he fancies.
Telephone books with traitors' telephone numbers will also be issued.
These numbers will start with the prefix 114 followed by a digit specific to the type of offense you want to denounce your neigbours for to the gestapo.

[Ocala Mike]

cosmicway - Now I know what it means when people claim that America is becoming another Greece! You're deep in the "scata" over there, pal.

[cosmicway]

cosmicway - Now I know what it means when people claim that America is becoming another Greece! You're deep in the "scata" over there, pal.

It's not only Greece.
Those things were not in fact made in Greece but are being transported to Greece.

[cosmicway]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTcBWo4Aj0g

[comet52]

For most of the country, sportsbetting is NOT legal - although it probably occurs about everywhere.

Actually in most places sportsbetting isn't outlawed but bookmaking is. Find an example of an individual arrested for sportsbetting. It pretty much doesn't exist.

[horses4courses]

Actually in most places sportsbetting isn't outlawed but bookmaking is. Find an example of an individual arrested for sportsbetting. It pretty much doesn't exist.

Strictly speaking, they are one and the same.

Of course, some bar, or office, isn't going to get busted for running a squares pool on a big game, where as someone booking a large volume of bets on a game would.
Technically, though, all sports betting is outlawed in the majority of states.

[davew]

Actually in most places sportsbetting isn't outlawed but bookmaking is. Find an example of an individual arrested for sportsbetting. It pretty much doesn't exist.

not sure if these were runners or just average joes
http://www.sportsintensity.com/news_dtls.php?news_id=132

[cosmicway]

All this is heretic stuff.
It's only another economic activity.
The bible belt should publish instructions to make people aware of dangers involved but the rest of what they say is heretic.
Can you protect everyone from everything ?
Ban marriage then - hospitals are full of people with head injuries from plates.

[Stillriledup]

All this is heretic stuff.
It's only another economic activity.
The bible belt should publish instructions to make people aware of dangers involved but the rest of what they say is heretic.
Can you protect everyone from everything ?
Ban marriage then - hospitals are full of people with head injuries from plates.

No, they just ban sports betting. Alcohol, pot, cigs, etc are all ok, sports betting is a no no.

Nobody has ever caused an auto accident while high on a sports bet.

[cosmicway]

No, they just ban sports betting. Alcohol, pot, cigs, etc are all ok, sports betting is a no no.

Nobody has ever caused an auto accident while high on a sports bet.

There was the prohibition of alcohol once upon a time.
Pot is a branch of agriculture in dire need of development.
I just think the bible belt is a unique American situation. In Europe there are some such but are considered too archaic. Here it is the reds who are mainly spearheading such efforts. Further to the east they have the islamist fundamentalists of course.

[horses4courses]

Actually in most places sportsbetting isn't outlawed but bookmaking is. Find an example of an individual arrested for sportsbetting. It pretty much doesn't exist.

Think again.
Arrested for winning more that $50 on illegal bets.

http://www.lenconnect.com/article/20140129/NEWS/140128980/-1/sports

[horses4courses]

Get ready for the betting bonanza.
The NFL and sports wagering - a billion dollar contradiction.

Just over a month away, too, until the NCAA fires up their cash cow.
Good thing that sports wagering has nothing to do with their success.... :rolleyes:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-01-30/super-bowl-odds-las-vegas-roger-goodell-nfl-betting-line-point-spread-gambling

[Stillriledup]

Get ready for the betting bonanza.
The NFL and sports wagering - a billion dollar contradiction.

Just over a month away, too, until the NCAA fires up their cash cow.
Good thing that sports wagering has nothing to do with their success.... :rolleyes:

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2014-01-30/super-bowl-odds-las-vegas-roger-goodell-nfl-betting-line-point-spread-gambling

Not only does betting have nothing to do with their success, but it HURTS their brand if NJ or other states legalize sports betting.

The entire NFL would collapse if residents of NJ were allowed to bet the games. :rolleyes:

[comet52]

not sure if these were runners or just average joes
http://www.sportsintensity.com/news_dtls.php?news_id=132

The article is short on details but generally these things are betting rings that are busted, aka a form of bookmaking. They go after bookmakers, not sportsbetters. It's like prohibition - you don't bust the people in the illegal saloon for drinking, you just close the saloon and arrest the owners. You can still get an offshore account and bet sports but moving the money around is a pain in the ass now.

I think bookmaking remains illegal in the U.S. even though other countries have fully regulated legal betting because of the longstanding organized crime connections to the trade. Which doesn't mean organized crime isn't involved in bookmaking in other countries but for whatever reason it's a sore spot here. Let's just say America has no shortage of puritanical hypocrites and leave it at that.

Also the Nevada lobby is happy to be the only game in town and they have worked behind the scenes for years to keep things as they are.