Can a great coach win without the best players?

[Stillriledup]

I was thinking about the Clippers and someone asked me if Doc Rivers is a great coach and i said that i wasnt sure he was great as the Clippers don't seem to be any better than they were under Vinny DelNegro. When Doc won in Boston, he had great players....it wasnt like he had average players and won strictly on coaching.

Phil Jackson is another example.....now, i don't want to take anything away from all his rings, but he did have all time great players on most of the teams he coached.

Do you know of a coach in any sport who is a "winner" without great players?

Can a coach win a title without the best players or the best team? What examples do you have of incredible coaching that overcame talent on the other side?

[lamboguy]

New England Patriots are 2nd seed in the AFC this year and their teem is full of guys that are cast-offs and retreads. with all the different players that came in and out of their program, you have to give the coaching staff big credit.

its the same in horse racing. good trainers can get the most out of young horses, bad ones ruin them

[tucker6]

New England Patriots are 2nd seed in the AFC this year and their teem is full of guys that are cast-offs and retreads. with all the different players that came in and out of their program, you have to give the coaching staff big credit.

its the same in horse racing. good trainers can get the most out of young horses, bad ones ruin them
I would agree with you except that the AFC East is habitually one of the weaker divisions in the NFL. Since 2000, I recall the Jets getting into the playoffs 3 times, the Dolphins once, and the Bills none. I bet each team has gone through at least four coaches in that time as well. Belichick may indeed be a great coach, but it's kinda hard to tell sometimes to be honest.

[TheEdge07]

I was thinking about the Clippers and someone asked me if Doc Rivers is a great coach and i said that i wasnt sure he was great as the Clippers don't seem to be any better than they were under Vinny DelNegro. When Doc won in Boston, he had great players....it wasnt like he had average players and won strictly on coaching.

Phil Jackson is another example.....now, i don't want to take anything away from all his rings, but he did have all time great players on most of the teams he coached.

Do you know of a coach in any sport who is a "winner" without great players?

Can a coach win a title without the best players or the best team? What examples do you have of incredible coaching that overcame talent on the other side?


88.Dodgers

[lamboguy]

I would agree with you except that the AFC East is habitually one of the weaker divisions in the NFL. Since 2000, I recall the Jets getting into the playoffs 3 times, the Dolphins once, and the Bills none. I bet each team has gone through at least four coaches in that time as well. Belichick may indeed be a great coach, but it's kinda hard to tell sometimes to be honest.couldn't agree more, but he did beat the top seed Denver this year and other teams outside his division.

i also saw dick williams take the Red Sox into the 7th game against a great Cardinal team with Bob
Gibson firing nothing but smoke at them with a banjo box team

i saw Jim Valvano take a bunch of bumbs that fell behind every single game and beat the Phi Slamma Jamma for the national championship.

[Clocker]

i saw Jim Valvano take a bunch of bumbs that fell behind every single game and beat the Phi Slamma Jamma for the national championship.

Which immediately brings to mind Herb Brooks and the 1980 Miracle on Ice.

[kingfin66]

I don't think that you necessarily need the best players, which was the OP's question, but you certainly do need good players. Moreover, those players should know their roles. With that said, there are some sports where talent, or talent at key positions is more important. In the NBA, you do need two great players to win a championship. In the NFL, the quarterback position has become increasingly important. A QB doesn't necessarily have to throw for huge yards, but they do have to lead, make good pre-reads, make decisions under fire, and have the ability to throw the ball accurately.

It is a very interesting question.

[Valuist]

I would agree with you except that the AFC East is habitually one of the weaker divisions in the NFL. Since 2000, I recall the Jets getting into the playoffs 3 times, the Dolphins once, and the Bills none. I bet each team has gone through at least four coaches in that time as well. Belichick may indeed be a great coach, but it's kinda hard to tell sometimes to be honest.

But in non-divisional games, the Patriots did beat Denver and the Saints. That team has been hit hard by injuries and is clearly not at the talent level of other years, yet they still won a lot of games. And Brady did not even have a very good year.

[burnsy]

New England Patriots are 2nd seed in the AFC this year and their teem is full of guys that are cast-offs and retreads. with all the different players that came in and out of their program, you have to give the coaching staff big credit.

I agree, the division stinks but they are just coached better than most. The New Orleans win and the Browns (onside kick) win were games they had no business winning...they just prepare better. I gave them "no shot" early in the season but the AFC is not that good and that coaching could put them deep into the playoffs. If they were in the NFC i would give them little or no chance but they are a legit 2 or 3 seed in the AFC.........and coaching played a huge part in it.

[Robert Fischer]

Have to look at what the coach brings to the team.

Have to look at what his role is, and how he impacts the game.

Doc Rivers
- I haven't studied the league this year, but having Doc as the coach seems to 'legitimize' the Clippers to a degree. It may only be a small degree, but that seems to be what he brings to the table here, and it's probably an upgrade over replacement level.


Phil Jackson
First and foremost Phil was a guy who could play the role of a serious coach, who Jordan would naturally accept the roles with, and play hard for, and occasionally be disciplined by.

His job was to take the best team with the best player and get the job done.



Can a coach win a title without the best players or the best team? What examples do you have of incredible coaching that overcame talent on the other side?

You have structure.
You have strategy. Possibly Innovation.
Talent evaluation.

New England is a good example. They didn't just luck into stud athletes, rather they developed a system, allowed certain stars to rise, continually cultivated their talent.

I don't want to do too much thinking on this, but both guys in the Eagles situation - Andy Reid and Chip Kelly have seemed to make an impact.

Reid went over to KC and immediately he helped legitimize that team and allow their defense to become almost a team trademark.

Kelly went over to Philly and his innovative offensive coaching immediately gave the team new life, and then he kind of did a Belichick with Nick Foles, where he put a guy who had some abilities in successful situations, and fostered his confidence, until that player became a legitimate franchise QB.


In most cases the coach's job will be about efficiency. He's a lot like a jockey in that regard.

[Valuist]

Who will win Coach of the Year in the NFL? A number of solid candidates:

Andy Reid- takes a team from 2 wins to 11-5. Certainly an obvious candidate. While Alex Smith isn't going to the HoF, turnovers were the big problem in 2012 and Smith rarely turns the ball over.

Belichek- no Welker, no Hernandez and no Gronk, Mayo or Wilfork for most of the year and they still go 12-4. Granted a weak division but 12-4 is still impressive.

Arians- won the award last year as an interim with the Colts. While the Cardinals didn't make the playoffs, 10-6 is impressive, especially in that division.

Rivera- head was on the chopping block after a 1-3 start before winning 8 straight.

Chip Kelly- seems to be the rare coach who can make the transition from college to pros. Many wrote off the Eagles after defenses started to adjust, but when Foles took over, the defenses never caught up.

Carroll, Fox and Harbaugh (Jim)-- all had great seasons but due to high expectations, its doubtful they will win.

[ManU918]

Who will win Coach of the Year in the NFL? A number of solid candidates:

Andy Reid- takes a team from 2 wins to 11-5. Certainly an obvious candidate. While Alex Smith isn't going to the HoF, turnovers were the big problem in 2012 and Smith rarely turns the ball over.

Belichek- no Welker, no Hernandez and no Gronk, Mayo or Wilfork for most of the year and they still go 12-4. Granted a weak division but 12-4 is still impressive.

Arians- won the award last year as an interim with the Colts. While the Cardinals didn't make the playoffs, 10-6 is impressive, especially in that division.

Rivera- head was on the chopping block after a 1-3 start before winning 8 straight.

Chip Kelly- seems to be the rare coach who can make the transition from college to pros. Many wrote off the Eagles after defenses started to adjust, but when Foles took over, the defenses never caught up.

Carroll, Fox and Harbaugh (Jim)-- all had great seasons but due to high expectations, its doubtful they will win.

Ron Rivera will win the award.

If Arians would have won in week 17 he would have won it.

Andy Reid shouldn't even be in the conversation... He inherited something like 6 pro bowlers and played one team with a record over .500 in the first 9 weeks (9-0). Then in the last 7 weeks he played 5 games against teams with records over .500 went 0-5 and 2 teams (Redskins/Raiders) with records under .500 2-0.

Not sure about your Chip Kelly comment... Harbaugh was in the Super Bowl last year and Pete Carroll had the best record (tied) in football. I don't think the transition is considered rare anymore as long as the coach has the personnel in place to fit his system. That goes for any coach not just those going from college to the NFL.

[jballscalls]

I used to be of the mindset that like with Phil Jackson types that "any fool can cook with a pound of butter"

I mean, is Erik Spoelstra a good coach or does he just have all the horses? I've heard some NBA people say he's great.

I've always thought NBA was toughest to determine if the coach was good or not. But I also don't know much about basketball so maybe that's why :)

[Valuist]

How about a great player bailing out a dumb coaching move?

Go back to last week. The Bears led the Packers 28-20 almost 3 1/2 minutes into the 4th quarter when Eddie Lacy scored on a TD run to trim the margin to 28-26. Instead of going for two, Mike McCarthy elects to kick the extra point. This bad decision ended up getting bailed out as the Packers scored on a 48 yard pass from Aaron Rodgers to Randall Cobb on a 4th and 8 with just 38 seconds to play. McCarthy apologists will say "Green Bay won the game so it must've been the right decision". No its just as dumb now as it was at the time. Fortunately for McCarthy, a Hall of Fame caliber QB can cover up a dumb mistake.