M. Moore on Obamacare

[JustRalph]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/01/opinion/moore-the-obamacare-we-deserve.html?_r=1&


And so it begins.......the push to single payer

He tries to blame Republicans too........

[TJDave]

And so it begins.......the push to single payer

Good...because that's where it needs to go.

[Clocker]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/01/opinion/moore-the-obamacare-we-deserve.html?_r=1&


And so it begins.......the push to single payer

He tries to blame Republicans too........

Michael Moore weeps about his dear friend having to live in a spare room:

My friend Donna Smith, who was forced to move into her daughter’s spare room at age 52 because health problems bankrupted her and her husband, Larry, now has cancer again.

Apparently Michael didn't have a spare room for his dear friend at his place.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z2V9l8J8Da0/TwnfTLyoWCI/AAAAAAAAFqY/48FPxGbeOEc/s1600/Michael-Moore-House.jpg

[newtothegame]

Share the wealth and he needs to pay his fair share obviously doesn't apply to him when it comes to the welfare of his fellow man.....:bang:

[Ocala Mike]

Always remember, and this applies to Moore also:

"The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor" - Voltaire

[tucker6]

Michael Moore weeps about his dear friend having to live in a spare room:



Apparently Michael didn't have a spare room for his dear friend at his place.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z2V9l8J8Da0/TwnfTLyoWCI/AAAAAAAAFqY/48FPxGbeOEc/s1600/Michael-Moore-House.jpg
come now. Michael just didn't want to shame her and her husband by showing his wealth. I'm sure he would have gladly asked her to stay at his mansion if it wasn't so ostentatious. He was simply doing her a favor by having her stay in a 8' x 10' bedroom. Really!! :rolleyes:

[burnsy]

Good...because that's where it needs to go.

Totally agree. Why does he blame Republicans? Its the Republicans,the Democrats and their owners.........the big insurance companies. Thats really where "Obama care" came from. Our system is the worlds biggest joke going. We are being outperformed by almost every country when it comes to cost. Many of our competitors are outliving us too. I'm not just some jack ass blowing steam on the internet, i study this crap. All the numbers can be found on the CIA website. I'm more of an economics person than a political one. Health care is not some "free market" good or service...you don't choose to get sick, plan to get sick or shop around to get a "price" for health care. With our insurance system half the time you don't even know what the bill will be.........until after the fact.
The hospital and specialist (because thats where you go when somethings wrong) are not some mall giving you 50% off...or the "Huge guy" giving you a deal on a new car. If you are REALLY sick its going to be way more than you can POSSIBLY afford. The propaganda aimed at mostly healthy people is a big commercial for the status quo..paid for by lobbies. People bitch about "Obama care"....well, these insurance companies are loving it other than the part about covering "pre-existing" conditions. Which is a total farce because every human in the history of the world eventually becomes sick and dies. So now everyone will be buying insurance...from a company, run for profit, with all kinds of administrative costs.....people that can't afford it.......the government pays for most of it for you. In other words even more money gets funneled to the "health care" (insurance) system from tax payers. Meanwhile, our competition (other countries) pay about half per year, per person for better care in many cases. Health care in this day and age is not a commodity, its not socialism if its managed by one entity. The insurance companies can't "compete" like the morons try to lie to people...they are all going to have to charge about the same thing....just to make a profit. If they are insuring sick people now too....the risk pool just at least doubled. Other countries are pointing at us laughing all the way to the bank because they don't have insurance companies adding about 40% to the cost of health care. Don't believe me? Instead of watching FOX News and Harry Reid or MSNBC and the rest of them....try looking it up for yourself. People in other countries are paying LESS for getting MORE....FACT.......live births are higher and people are living longer in countries that compete directly with us.....FACT. Oh, they are a bunch of socialist, yeah ok, why are they trying to out trade and out sell us at every street corner???????????:bang: FOOLS! How much of that shit in Wal Mart is made in the USA???????:lol:

[Ocala Mike]

burnsy, you're killing us with logic! You'll be hit with a cease and desist order soon if you don't stop.

[burnsy]

burnsy, you're killing us with logic! You'll be hit with a cease and desist order soon if you don't stop.

I'm not a political person.....i'm an economist..a numbers cruncher, a fact motivated person and i'm pretty objective too. I watch and listen to the crap people believe and laugh at it. Talking points from the parties are a joke but people puke them up like facts.....its hilarious. Whats even worse is our "News networks" (loose term) do it every day now....its called "media framing". Its why i'm a pretty good gambler and handicapper...i can cut through the bull shit like a fog cutter. Emotions are for family, if you get emotional (take sides) about politics and/or gambling.....half the time you don't know what the hell you are doing or talking about. Thats the difference between someone that wins and someone that never can.

[tucker6]

burnsy, you're killing us with logic!
if only it were true ...

[Ocala Mike]

See what I mean?

[hcap]

We have had this discussion in detail many times before.

Obama Failed for Now

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107354&highlight=Obama

[Saratoga_Mike]

Totally agree. Why does he blame Republicans? Its the Republicans,the Democrats and their owners.........the big insurance companies. Thats really where "Obama care" came from. Our system is the worlds biggest joke going. We are being outperformed by almost every country when it comes to cost. Many of our competitors are outliving us too. I'm not just some jack ass blowing steam on the internet, i study this crap. All the numbers can be found on the CIA website. I'm more of an economics person than a political one. Health care is not some "free market" good or service...you don't choose to get sick, plan to get sick or shop around to get a "price" for health care. With our insurance system half the time you don't even know what the bill will be.........until after the fact.
The hospital and specialist (because thats where you go when somethings wrong) are not some mall giving you 50% off...or the "Huge guy" giving you a deal on a new car. If you are REALLY sick its going to be way more than you can POSSIBLY afford. The propaganda aimed at mostly healthy people is a big commercial for the status quo..paid for by lobbies. People bitch about "Obama care"....well, these insurance companies are loving it other than the part about covering "pre-existing" conditions. Which is a total farce because every human in the history of the world eventually becomes sick and dies. So now everyone will be buying insurance...from a company, run for profit, with all kinds of administrative costs.....people that can't afford it.......the government pays for most of it for you. In other words even more money gets funneled to the "health care" (insurance) system from tax payers. Meanwhile, our competition (other countries) pay about half per year, per person for better care in many cases. Health care in this day and age is not a commodity, its not socialism if its managed by one entity. The insurance companies can't "compete" like the morons try to lie to people...they are all going to have to charge about the same thing....just to make a profit. If they are insuring sick people now too....the risk pool just at least doubled. Other countries are pointing at us laughing all the way to the bank because they don't have insurance companies adding about 40% to the cost of health care. Don't believe me? Instead of watching FOX News and Harry Reid or MSNBC and the rest of them....try looking it up for yourself. People in other countries are paying LESS for getting MORE....FACT.......live births are higher and people are living longer in countries that compete directly with us.....FACT. Oh, they are a bunch of socialist, yeah ok, why are they trying to out trade and out sell us at every street corner???????????:bang: FOOLS! How much of that shit in Wal Mart is made in the USA???????:lol:

I would submit you have no idea what you're talking about, but that's just me.

[Greyfox]

Other countries are pointing at us laughing all the way to the bank because they don't have insurance companies adding about 40% to the cost of health care.

Uh...where did you come up with that 40 % figure? Just askin.'

[jballscalls]

Michael Moore weeps about his dear friend having to live in a spare room:



Apparently Michael didn't have a spare room for his dear friend at his place.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z2V9l8J8Da0/TwnfTLyoWCI/AAAAAAAAFqY/48FPxGbeOEc/s1600/Michael-Moore-House.jpg

In his defense that place is in Michigan, which means it cost like 28k.

[Clocker]

Other countries are pointing at us laughing all the way to the bank because they don't have insurance companies adding about 40% to the cost of health care.

The health insurance industry has an average profit of 4%. Under ObamaCare, their "medical loss ratio", i.e., administrative costs, cannot be more than 15% of their revenue. Does anyone here believe that the federal government can operate more efficiently than private insurance companies?

What other countries don't have that we do is the administrative burden of doctors and hospitals from compliance with state and federal regulations. Other countries have those costs, but they are part of the government budget and not imposed directly on the private sector.

[Clocker]

Always remember, and this applies to Moore also:

"The comfort of the rich depends upon an abundant supply of the poor" - Voltaire

Michael Moore eats the poor? :eek:

[Steve 'StatMan']

Good...because that's where it needs to go.

I'm fine if M. Moore wants Single Payer, as long as he's sure he can pay for everybody. Damn generous, but a bigger stretch than his old clothes.

[Clocker]

I would submit you have no idea what you're talking about, but that's just me.

C'mon. He said we shouldn't listen to Harry Reid or MSNBC. You gotta give him partial credit, right? :p

[Shemp Howard]

In his defense that place is in Michigan, which means it cost like 28k.

FAT CAT: This $2 million home on Michigan’s exclusive Torch Lake makes filmmaker Michael Moore neighbors with CEOs and movie stars. The township where it’s located also has a decided lack of diversity — with whites making up about 98 percent of residents.

[Shemp Howard]

He also owns in a $1.9 million penthouse, a block or two west of Central Park.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Uh...where did you come up with that 40 % figure? Just askin.'

It's quite easy to make things up.

[jballscalls]

He also owns in a $1.9 million penthouse, a block or two west of Central Park.

Howard Stern told him once in an interview that he read that Moore often takes limos when in NYC to appearances but has the limo drop him off a block or two away and then he walks up so people think he's an "everyman". He denied it. I could totally see it though.

[Clocker]

Howard Stern told him once in an interview that he read that Moore often takes limos when in NYC to appearances but has the limo drop him off a block or two away and then he walks up so people think he's an "everyman". He denied it. I could totally see it though.

Can you imagine Michael Moore walking more than a block or two? He'd have to stop en route for a meal and a nap.

[Greyfox]

Can you imagine Michael Moore walking more than a block or two? He'd have to stop en route for a meal and a nap.

I had a good workout this morning.
I ran around M. Moore.

[Tom]

Michael is relaxing this week, just sitting around the house.
"AROUND" the house.

[davew]

Michael Moore is not happy about Obama letting 150,000 homes in Detroit get their water shut off. But not willing to pay their bills himself.

[Tom]

MM is the epitome of a lib.
He insists on things being done, but having others pay for it.
The man is trash.

[fast4522]

MM is the epitome of a lib.
He insists on things being done, but having others pay for it.
The man is trash.

I can agree with that, human waste.

[thaskalos]

Why all this animosity for someone who has done us no harm?

[fast4522]

The harm done is to our progeny, how you do is of no concern.

[Clocker]

The harm done is that Moore is a propagandist spreading lies that promote policies that infringe on the rights of others.

[thaskalos]

The harm done is that Moore is a propagandist spreading lies that promote policies that infringe on the rights of others.
You are a funny guy. This comment of yours fits every politician who has ever seen public office...and they have their hands deep in our pockets, to boot. And I am supposed to get mad at Michael Moore?

[thaskalos]

The harm done is to our progeny, how you do is of no concern.
I would answer you...if only I knew what you meant.

[fast4522]

It means who gives a rats ass about you, your son and his kids are who count.
The same over here, not talking about you, our kids and grand kids are our future. I have been saying the same things over and over, how easy could it be?

[Clocker]

This comment of yours fits every politician who has ever seen public office...and they have their hands deep in our pockets, to boot.

The fact that members of our government, on both sides of the aisle, are doing more harm than Moore doesn't make him any less odious. I have more than enough loathing to go around.

[PaceAdvantage]

It means who gives a rats ass about you, your son and his kids are who count.
The same over here, not talking about you, our kids and grand kids are our future. I have been saying the same things over and over, how easy could it be?You're two for two now...as now I have no clue what you are trying to say here.

[newtothegame]

Why all this animosity for someone who has done us no harm?
Considering libs promote themselves as the ones who care about the people....you would think MM would do more then want others to take care of the problem.....I mean after all, I believe the guy has some dough....:lol:

[Tom]

Why all this animosity for someone who has done us no harm?

Yes, he has done harm to people with is attack-style crockumentaries.
Time to have ti done to him.

He's a big boy, thask ( a verrrrrrrry big boy!)
He has earned the animosity - I wish I had the opportunity to meet the fat boy in person and see how he likes being stalked and questioned.

[Tom]

And I am supposed to get mad at Michael Moore?

Why would you think that?
I would think you would probably agree with him on most things.

[nijinski]

Totally agree. Why does he blame Republicans? Its the Republicans,the Democrats and their owners.........the big insurance companies. Thats really where "Obama care" came from. Our system is the worlds biggest joke going. We are being outperformed by almost every country when it comes to cost. Many of our competitors are outliving us too. I'm not just some jack ass blowing steam on the internet, i study this crap. All the numbers can be found on the CIA website. I'm more of an economics person than a political one. Health care is not some "free market" good or service...you don't choose to get sick, plan to get sick or shop around to get a "price" for health care. With our insurance system half the time you don't even know what the bill will be.........until after the fact.
The hospital and specialist (because thats where you go when somethings wrong) are not some mall giving you 50% off...or the "Huge guy" giving you a deal on a new car. If you are REALLY sick its going to be way more than you can POSSIBLY afford. The propaganda aimed at mostly healthy people is a big commercial for the status quo..paid for by lobbies. People bitch about "Obama care"....well, these insurance companies are loving it other than the part about covering "pre-existing" conditions. Which is a total farce because every human in the history of the world eventually becomes sick and dies. So now everyone will be buying insurance...from a company, run for profit, with all kinds of administrative costs.....people that can't afford it.......the government pays for most of it for you. In other words even more money gets funneled to the "health care" (insurance) system from tax payers. Meanwhile, our competition (other countries) pay about half per year, per person for better care in many cases. Health care in this day and age is not a commodity, its not socialism if its managed by one entity. The insurance companies can't "compete" like the morons try to lie to people...they are all going to have to charge about the same thing....just to make a profit. If they are insuring sick people now too....the risk pool just at least doubled. Other countries are pointing at us laughing all the way to the bank because they don't have insurance companies adding about 40% to the cost of health care. Don't believe me? Instead of watching FOX News and Harry Reid or MSNBC and the rest of them....try looking it up for yourself. People in other countries are paying LESS for getting MORE....FACT.......live births are higher and people are living longer in countries that compete directly with us.....FACT. Oh, they are a bunch of socialist, yeah ok, why are they trying to out trade and out sell us at every street corner???????????:bang: FOOLS! How much of that shit in Wal Mart is made in the USA???????:lol:

In many other countries Grandma and Grandpa may just have to go home
and die if they have major illness without large funds to pay privately .
It doesn't all work ,

[thaskalos]

Why would you think that?
I would think you would probably agree with him on most things.

You'd be wrong, Tom. I listen to all sorts of people...but I disagree with them a lot more often than not.

[TJDave]

In many other countries Grandma and Grandpa may just have to go home
and die if they have major illness without large funds to pay privately .


Good idea. Keeping them alive is costing us billions.

[Tom]

You'd be wrong, Tom. I listen to all sorts of people...but I disagree with them a lot more often than not.

Meant that as a snappy retort, but left off the ;)

Sorry thask, didn't mean to imply anything. You're OK!

[classhandicapper]

Why all this animosity for someone who has done us no harm?

IMO there is a lot of general resentment towards people in the entertainment business having significant influence on our politics despite often having a limited education and understanding of the subjects they are constantly whining about. Most of them are well-intentioned nitwits helping drag the country into the same cesspool they live in.

It's easy for guys like us to listen to (or better yet not listed to) what they have say and dismiss it when it's a flat out lie, delusional in it's understanding etc.. but it does have an impact on some people and the general discussion.

If we want to discuss divisive issues like healthcare, guns or whatever, we need real stats, real business leaders etc... We don't need Michael Moore spinning tales and living in idealistic la la land.

[Robert Goren]

Uh...where did you come up with that 40 % figure? Just askin.' With most insurance companies it is closer to 20% but there were few that were in the 40% range. As for where the numbers came from, they came from the insurance companies themselves in their annual and quarterly reports. Stockholder reports are a source for a wealth of information.
The numbers quoted are difference between benefits paid out and premiums taken. The insurance companies have expenses too.

[thaskalos]

IMO there is a lot of general resentment towards people in the entertainment business having significant influence on our politics despite often having a limited education and understanding of the subjects they are constantly whining about. Most of them are well-intentioned nitwits helping drag the country into the same cesspool they live in.

It's easy for guys like us to listen to (or better yet not listed to) what they have say and dismiss it when it's a flat out lie, delusional in it's understanding etc.. but it does have an impact on some people and the general discussion.

If we want to discuss divisive issues like healthcare, guns or whatever, we need real stats, real business leaders etc... We don't need Michael Moore spinning tales and living in idealistic la la land.

I have to disagree with you, CH. It seems to me that there is a lot of resentment out there for ANYONE who suggests that our country may not be quite as "noble" as she is made out to be. I don't think one's "level of education" has anything to do with it; the messenger of unpopular news is attacked no matter HOW intelligent or educated he might be.

Noam Chomsky is as intelligent and as educated as it gets, but he dares to voice the "unpopular" view...and he gets vilified in this country as much as anybody else.

[Greyfox]

Noam Chomsky is as intelligent and as educated as it gets, but he dares to voice the "unpopular" view...and he gets vilified in this country as much as anybody else.

Noam Chomsky's expertise is in Linguistics.

Beyond that field, he is no more of an expert than you and I.
In fact, some of us may have much more expertise than him, depending upon the subject at hand.

He's not alone in doing that sort of thing.
What does Al Gore truly know about climate change?
What does Alec Baldwin truly know about animal abuse in horse racing?
What does Robert Redford truly know about the Keystone Pipeline?

Get my point?
People have a tendency to earn a solid reputation in one area and they think that gives them license to comment on other areas far removed from their core knowledge base.
Unfortunately a gullible public gives more weight to their views than they should.

Chomsky fits right in that category of using his eminence in one area to have us believe he's an expert in another.
Yes. His opinions have a right to be heard.
But because they are his doesn't make them right or true.

[thaskalos]

Noam Chomsky's expertise is in Linguistics.

Beyond that field, he is no more of an expert than you and I.
In fact, some of us may have much more expertise than him, depending upon the subject at hand.

He's not alone in doing that sort of thing.
What does Al Gore truly know about climate change?
What does Alec Baldwin truly know about animal abuse in horse racing?
What does Robert Redford truly know about the Keystone Pipeline?

Get my point?
People have a tendency to earn a solid reputation in one area and they think that gives them license to comment on other areas far removed from their core knowledge base.
Unfortunately a gullible public gives more weight to their views than they should.

Chomsky fits right in that category of using his eminence in one area to have us believe he's an expert in another.
Yes. His opinions have a right to be heard.
But because they are his doesn't make them right or true.

No, Greyfox...I must disagree with you. I would not stand favorably when compared to Noam Chomsky...unless, that is, we were talking about gambling. I can't presume the same about you though...

[Greyfox]

No, Greyfox...I must disagree with you. I would not stand favorably when compared to Noam Chomsky...unless, that is, we were talking about gambling. I can't presume the same about you though...

Don't get me wrong.
Chomsky is intelligent, learned, and articulate.
He often presents interesting ideas, previously more often inside his field of expertise.
He can present food for thought for sure.
But it should not be swallowed just because he's Noam Chomsky.
What he says should be digested or spat out with respect to politics and world views independent of his brilliance elsewhere.
Remember, his main contributions have been linguistics.
When he steps beyond that specialty, which he was marvellous at, his ideas have to be weighed very critically.

[thaskalos]

Don't get me wrong.
Chomsky is intelligent, learned, and articulate.
He often presents interesting ideas, previously more often inside his field of expertise.
He can present food for thought for sure.
But it should not be swallowed just because he's Noam Chomsky.
What he says should be digested or spat out with respect to politics and world views independent of his brilliance elsewhere.
Remember, his main contributions have been linguistics.
When he steps beyond that specialty, which he was marvellous at, his ideas have to be weighed very critically.

I know, Greyfox. I didn't mean to imply that Chomsky's views should be automatically embraced simply because of his intellectual standing in society. I asked why we have such animosity for those whose only crime seems to be that they have very different political opinions than most of the rest of us...and Classhandicapper suggested that people resent it when "entertainers", who have limited education and a limited understanding, start whining about things that they don't really understand.

I brought up Chomsky just to show that this resentment is not reserved only for the under-educated celebrities. No matter how educated one is...he will get vilified for his unpopular political opinions -- even though he has every right to voice them.

When Gore Vidal died a couple of years ago...people on this very site were calling him a traitor on the day of his death. They will undoubtedly do the same for Chomsky...and that's not right, IMO. We are all entitled to our opinions...and we have the right to have our opinions heard, if we so choose. That's the very ESSENCE of freedom of speech. Having an unpopular political opinion does not make one a "traitor"...nor does it mean that he is less sophisticated than "we" are.

It doesn't take much courage to voice the "majority" opinion...

[TJDave]

Having an unpopular political opinion does not make one a "traitor"

Chomsky is an exception. A Jewish anti-Semite.

[fast4522]

Consider this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBTyTWOZCM

[Greyfox]

Chomsky is an exception. A Jewish anti-Semite.

Or is he an anti-Zionist instead?

[classhandicapper]

I have to disagree with you, CH. It seems to me that there is a lot of resentment out there for ANYONE who suggests that our country may not be quite as "noble" as she is made out to be. I don't think one's "level of education" has anything to do with it; the messenger of unpopular news is attacked no matter HOW intelligent or educated he might be.

Noam Chomsky is as intelligent and as educated as it gets, but he dares to voice the "unpopular" view...and he gets vilified in this country as much as anybody else.

I agree that it's not likely to win you any popularity contests if you criticize the US. But I don't think that's why most entertainers take heat. I think they take heat because a lot of people think they are total nitwits.

I was actually reading Chomsky articles about the middle east last week. IMO he's way more qualified to express his views to a greater audience than guys like Michael Moore or Sean Penn. Chomsky is a very bright articulate guy that has spent decades thinking and writing about these issues. I enjoy reading what he thinks and then I reject or accept it. Sean Penn is entitled to think and say whatever he thinks, but he shouldn't have a greater voice than I do just because he's an actor.

[classhandicapper]

Or is he an anti-Zionist instead?

I'm not expert on Chomsky, but I'd call him an anti-Zionist.

[TJDave]

Or is he an anti-Zionist instead?

He is anti-Zionist, as well.

Being anti-Zionist, excluding dispensationalists and select orthodox Jewry, is typical of all anti-Semites.

[Greyfox]

He is anti-Zionist, as well.

Being anti-Zionist, excluding dispensationalists and select orthodox Jewry, is typical of all anti-Semites.

Accepting that Chomsky is anti-Zionist, can you refer us to what evidence that you've seen that he's anti-Semetic?

[TJDave]

Accepting that Chomsky is anti-Zionist, can you refer us to what evidence that you've seen that he's anti-Semetic?

http://www.countercontempt.com/archives/1185

[Greyfox]

http://www.countercontempt.com/archives/1185

1. From what I can determine Chomsky is not a Holocaust denier.

2. Does exchanging "friendly letters" with a Holocaust denier make one anti-Semetic?


That's a pretty "weak tea" of a case.
I exchange all sorts of friendly letters with people who I do not share the same beliefs with.
Of course I think holocaust deniers are idiots, and are anti-semetic.
But that doesn't mean I won't talk with them.
I have friends who are racists. I don't agree with them, but they are entitled to believe what they believe.

[TJDave]

2. Does exchanging "friendly letters" with a Holocaust denier make one anti-Semetic?

Yes...or hopelessly naïve.

http://www.wernercohn.com/Chomsky.html

[thaskalos]

Yes...or hopelessly naïve.

http://www.wernercohn.com/Chomsky.html

If Chomsky WASN'T Jewish...would these comments be enough to label him "anti-Semetic"?

[TJDave]

If Chomsky WASN'T Jewish...would these comments be enough to label him "anti-Semetic"?

Yes.

As a rule, friends of Holocaust deniers aren't friends of the Jewish people.

[thaskalos]

Yes.

As a rule, friends of Holocaust deniers aren't friends of the Jewish people.

Dave...I happen to hold you in high regard, so I hope you won't think that I am just playing games with you here. If I am wrong, then it's an honest mistake...and I apologize in advance. I've always thought that to be Jewish is a religious matter...whereas to be an Israeli is a matter of ethnicity. We even have Greek citizens who are Jewish. Can't a person hold a critical political opinion about Israel, without giving the impression that he is anti-Semetic? When someone criticizes Israel...is it a given that he is taking a stand against all the Jews of the world as well?

[Tom]

Criticizing Israel and denying the holocaust are not close to being the same thing. Deniers do so on purpose, with an agenda, knowing full well it did happen.

Even an idiot knows the Holocaust was real. There is no debate on that.

[TJDave]

Can't a person hold a critical political opinion about Israel, without giving the impression that he is anti-Semetic ?

What do you mean by "critical"? Chomsky holds that the state is illegitimate and should be dissolved. If Jews were pushed into the sea I doubt he would lose a moments sleep.

Most Israelis as well as those in the diaspora are critical of the government, one way or the other. Old joke-Ask two Jews, get three opinions.


When someone criticizes Israel...is it a given that he is taking a stand against all the Jews of the world as well?

Generally, no.

However, given that Israel is a Jewish state, the possibility always exists.

[classhandicapper]

Generally, no.

However, given that Israel is a Jewish state, the possibility always exists.

A good way to tell is if they apply the same standards to other countries they apply to Israel. In other words, are they arguing a "principle" or are they arguing Israel.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's funny how the Jews, despite all of their horrific persecution and tragedies they have suffered as a people, still never get a pass.

In my book, they've been royally ****ed over by the world enough times where they (Israel) can basically do whatever the hell they want, and I'm not going to criticize them...I agree with them so often, I hardly ever find myself being critical anyway...

[TJDave]

It's funny how the Jews, despite all of their horrific persecution and tragedies they have suffered as a people, still never get a pass.

No one should get a pass. When Israel is wrong she should be called on it.

[fast4522]

No one gets a pass, when the thread is about Noam Chomsky many will not enjoy my post. Israel owes its people safety and normalcy, western opinions are like toilet paper.

[Tom]

When it comes to Israel taking care of Israel the rest of us can kiss their arse.
They owe us nothing.