Windows Question

[raybo]

I know this forum is about handicapping software but this is kind of related. I have a friend who recently upgraded his HP Pavilion from Win 98 - 2nd Edition to Win XP Home. He also went from 64MB ram to 256 MB, the processor is a Celeron 500 Mhz. After upgrading to XP and downloading the patches from MS, there was a considerable slowdown in his computer's performance. The boot-up time is rediculous, I know it should be slower than 98 but this is really, really slow. I have XP Pro and mine boots in about 15 seconds, his takes over 1 minute to display his desktop and then another 15 or 20 seconds to finally stabilize. His printer also is running very slow, much slower than with 98.

Has anyone out there experienced similar problems with an upgrade to XP Home?

[GameTheory]

A Celeron 500 Mhz is simply too underpowered to be running XP. Don't think there is anything much you can do...

[sq764]

I don't agree with that.. I have a Pentium 3 300MHZ in my older laptop and XP runs perfectly..

[raybo]

According to the system requirements included with the XP upgrade software, 233 mgz is the minimum processor speed. I don't think it's the processor. I think there may have been some problems with the upgrade software. Doesn't the upgrade uninstall 98 before installing XP? Or does it just add to the 98 OS? I have a full version of XP Pro that I could try to install over the XP Home upgrade. Would that be better? I've never tried installing an OS on top of an existing OS, only loaded an OS on a new computer. Will there be a problem installing Pro with XP Home and 98SE already on the machine?

[GameTheory]

Pentium 3 300Mhz? I didn't think there was such a thing. The P2's ran at 450 Mhz or so.

I still say its underpowered, but of course there could be other problems. Maybe lack of disk space? If there is no room for a paging file, that could really slow things down. Is he sure that 256MB RAM is being recognized?

[raybo]

I think P2 toped out at 266 mhz

[raybo]

He still has 5.4 Ghz of hard-drive left from a 10 Ghz. Yes the system is recognizing 256 MB ram.

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by raybo
I think P2 toped out at 266 mhz

Nope. I've got one -- 450Mhz.

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by raybo
He still has 5.4 Ghz of hard-drive left from a 10 Ghz. Yes the system is recognizing 256 MB ram.


Hmmm... hardware issue must be. Maybe the system bus or clock settings got screwed up? DMA transfer mode on the hard drives turned off?

Where's JustRalph? I bet he knows...

[raybo]

I know that there was a P3 - 333 mgz (and a 400 mgz because my sister had one by Dell). But, that's beside the point. All I know is that the thing was working fine before the upgrade. Now it acts as though something very work intensive is running in the background all the time. It's like the computer is always busy.

[Larry Hamilton]

try here:

http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp

[bucktron]

Run the ScanDisk Utility in the "Through" Mode. If you have Hard Drive Problems on the Horizon your Boot Time will sometimes slow down big time prior to failure.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by GameTheory
A Celeron 500 Mhz is simply too underpowered to be running XP. Don't think there is anything much you can do...

A celeron Processor doesn't have the goods....no cache....they are Intel chips that didn't pass QC when it came to the cache...mostly that is what they are anyway.

The reason it runs better on a laptop is that the laptop video is much less intensive.

Larry is right on with his link.....
Try this one for more info (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/t1072811155)

If this 500 mhz celeron machine has bult on the motheboard video, it means that the processor is also doing the video processing and may have only 2-16 megs of ram available for video...and that would really drag it down. XP has all kinds of "fade in fade out" effects for video menu's etc. They take up tons of processor and video and this box doesn't have it. Turn off the extra video features and I bet it might be a little faster. One question........did it run faster before he applied the Updates from MSFT? Some of the updates slow things down too.........start looking for a real P3 processor to put in it. If the motherboard will take it........ they are cheap........

like this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3470051457&category=14292)

Two rules of thumb...........

1. Always double what Microsoft says the Min. Requirements are, if you want to actually use the machine for anything at all.

2. Never Buy a Celeron

[shanta]

Originally posted by JustRalph
A celeron Processor doesn't have the goods....no cache....they are Intel chips that didn't pass QC when it came to the cache...mostly that is what they are anyway.

The reason it runs better on a laptop is that the laptop video is much less intensive.

Larry is right on with his link.....
Try this one for more info (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/forum/winxp/t1072811155)

If this 500 mhz celeron machine has bult on the motheboard video, it means that the processor is also doing the video processing and may have only 2-16 megs of ram available for video...and that would really drag it down. XP has all kinds of "fade in fade out" effects for video menu's etc. They take up tons of processor and video and this box doesn't have it. Turn off the extra video features and I bet it might be a little faster. One question........did it run faster before he applied the Updates from MSFT? Some of the updates slow things down too.........start looking for a real P3 processor to put in it. If the motherboard will take it........ they are cheap........

like this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3470051457&category=14292)

Two rules of thumb...........

1. Always double what Microsoft says the Min. Requirements are, if you want to actually use the machine for anything at all.

2. Never Buy a Celeron

Ralph thanx for the info! i am looking to buy a laptop and i am gonna take your recommendations and write them down when i go looking! i am a novice when it comes to this so thanx for the info on celeron and the rest!!!!
Richie:)

[PaceAdvantage]

JR,

I have to disagree with you on one point (never buy a celeron). I had a Celeron a couple of years ago that I easily overclocked. It was one of the celerys WITH cache (it was the 300A/66) that I got running at about 450mhz. It was quite the bargain at the time considering the speed I got it to run at.

I loved it....

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
JR,
I have to disagree with you on one point (never buy a celeron). I had a Celeron a couple of years ago that I easily overclocked. It was one of the celerys WITH cache (it was the 300A/66) that I got running at about 450mhz. It was quite the bargain at the time considering the speed I got it to run at.I loved it....

Ok...PA you are right, there are some exceptions. But they are few and far between. I have played with them in the lab and made a few work just fine too. But if you aren't prepared to tinker with them, "never buy a celeron"

[raybo]

RE:< start looking for a real P3 processor to put in it. If the motherboard will take it........ they are cheap>

How would I find out if the motherboard will accept a Pentium chip? Would HP be able to tell me by the serial # of the machine? This seems to be the most logical step, upgrading the processor, but I really don't know much about which motherboards accept which chips.

[Brian Flewwelling]

This is a great board to get Handicapping insight.

I would not consider it top drawer for computer analysis. The above thread confirms this.

Fleww

[raybo]

RE:< I would not consider it top drawer for computer analysis. The above thread confirms this.>

I suppose you're an expert in this area. So, what do you suggest, besides chunking the machine in the trash? If this thread isn't your "cup of tea", there are plenty of others here.

[Brian Flewwelling]

Originally posted by raybo
RE:
I suppose you're an expert in this area. So, what do you suggest, besides chunking the machine in the trash? If this thread isn't your "cup of tea", there are plenty of others here.

I am better qualified on the computer front than on Handicapping, but that is not much of an endorsement by itself. My comment was intended to serve as a caution ... some folks have strongly held opinions about computers that are not necessarily useful to others ... but they are enthusiastically shared none the less.

I, like the Celeron 500, am a bit out of date, but i have a C500 runniing on my laptop with Windows 2000. It was fine, but is slowing down and that is not the Celeron's problem. Think disk fragmentation, and too many programs added and not fully removed.

I have heard, but have had no personal experience, that WinXP Home is a mess... Win XP pro is okay (have that on a 2Ghz Celeron.

The suggestion about video deserves some consideration. XP may be asking for a lot more in terms of Video performance than did W98. Try scaling back the number of pixels and colours.

i would also consider a re-install... not all installs go perfectly... and, if possible re-format and re-install. I did that to my P3-700, and it increased the speed incredibly

Fleww

PS, and yes, there are a lot of other threads on this site, many of them super!!

[wolsons]

As a network administrator for my company, I get to pick and choose which PC I personally use on my desktop. Presently, I'm using a Dell Optiflex with a 2 Gigahertz Celeron, running XP Pro, and this baby flies. I too had a generally negative mindset towards Celerons, but based on the performance of the one I'm using now, no complaints at all.

Steve

[sq764]

Look, my Compaq Armada laptop is running XP fine with a 300MHZ processor and a 70 RAM, yes 70!

I really don't think the processor or the RAM is the issue. (Although that is not much help, as I do not know what the actual issue is)

[headhawg]

raybo,

How much hard drive space is free? Performance of Windows will slow significantly when you only have around 10% free (varies by drive size and performance, of course).

As was previously mentioned, defrag.

The 500 Celeron with 256 meg should be adequate, but not great for XP.

Make sure to update the device drivers. The printer, for example, might be using outdated or incorrect drivers.

Upgrading the processor may not be so easy; laptops, especially older ones, are not very upgradeable. Make sure to check the documentation.

While this may be just my opinion, I'm an MCSE and do this for a living, albeit mostly on the server side.

HH

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by sq764
Look, my Compaq Armada laptop is running XP fine with a 300MHZ processor and a 70 RAM, yes 70!

I really don't think the processor or the RAM is the issue. (Although that is not much help, as I do not know what the actual issue is)

"running XP fine" is a relative term my friend. It depends on what you are doing with it. With 70 megs of ram? I have never heard of a machine with 70 megs of ram? are you sure you aren't reading that wrong? Just wondering.........

I will step out of this conversation. Apparently there are some people in here that have better qualifications than me. Get with it guys.........save that Celeron..........

[sq764]

I appreciate you insulting my intelligence by asking if I know how to read the RAM on a computer.. But yes, it is 70, that is SEVEN ZERO.

I can run streaming video through YOUBET crystal clear whild working on an elaborate spreadsheet. To me, that is working fine.

If I was working on 3-d models for space shuttle improvements or recording a motion picture, I wouldn't expect my 300/70 Armada to handle it, but that is not the case.

[headhawg]

sq764,

I'm not speaking for JR, nor am I questioning your ability to tell how much RAM you have, but I can understand why the 70 megs would be called into question. Memory sticks come in binary amounts -- 16, 32, 64, 128, etc. I cannot come up with a combination of binary numbers that equals 70. Might you have 96 or 128 megs total and the free mem total = 70?

Not trying to incite anything; just curious.

Also, consider yourself very lucky that you have good performance with a relatively small amount of RAM, That is certainly not typical.

HH

[cj]

I stayed out for awhile, but I seriously doubt Ralph is mistaken on this one. First off, no computer has 70 Mb of RAM. If it did, there is simply no way it is going to run XP without some serious problems.

I have never met Ralph, but I would value his opinion highly with regards to any PC question. Some may only be opinion, but this man has helped so many people on this board with difficult problems, it would be foolish to discount his opinion.

Finally, just because one says he works in the field does not make one an expert. I work in the field, but can always learn more. Every day I go to work, I am astounded by all the info I don't know and amazed by all the things I can't do in the communications field.

[sq764]

I don't work in the computer field.

With that being said, unless I have been in a dream for the past 2 years, I have been running XP on my 300MH/70RAM Compaq Armada 7400 with ZERO problem.

Streaming video is crisp and clean.. Obviously, I cannot work on 5 applications at the same time, but like I said I can watch streaming video and work on a large spreadsheet at the same time.

But if you guys think it's not possible, I guess believe whatever makes you happy. I can't believe you would think someone is lying about this.. Makes no sense.

[cj]

Noone thinks you are lying, just making a mistake. I've never heard of a computer with 70 RAM, but it doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Just want you to know I'm not calling you a liar, big difference.

[sq764]

Well, I am not entirely sure how I could be mistaken.. I use the laptop every single day..

I am open-minded, if there is a more precise way to check the RAM, tell me.. I am all ears.

Frankly, I take no offense to someone telling me I am mistaken.. What's comical is for someone to tell me XP cannot run 'fine' on a 70 RAM computer. (I mean, I am sure for JR to make this statement, he has attempted to do this. Because otherwise, it would be pure speculation)

[headhawg]

Here is the link to the specs. Click on the memory link. Draw your own conclusions as I having doubts about my own computer expertise.


http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/10015_div/10015_div.html

HH

[sq764]

Well, out of curisity, I asked our computer guy here at work. He said on the older Compaq laptops, there is memory housed on the mother board.. Typically 4-16MB..

My guess would be 64 standard + 6 on the motherboard.

But I am sure JustRalph Gates will give me the more accurate detail..

[cj]

From the Microsoft Page on XP home, assuming that is what you have.

System Requirements:

# 128 megabytes (MB) of RAM or higher recommended (64 MB minimum supported; may limit performance and some features)

To find your RAM, right click on the My Computer Icon and select properties. One of the bottom lines displayed will show you your RAM. If it says 70 MB of RAM there, then I guess that is what you have.

[cj]

Here is a picture of what you should see.

[sq764]

When I get home, digital photos of the 70 RAM and XP will be on their way.. sheesh..

[penguinfan]

My laptop has a pentium 4 and 1024 ram, I seem to have no trouble with XP pro except when I open Outlook Express for the first time after start up it take a really long time to open:confused:

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by sq764
Well, out of curisity, I asked our computer guy here at work. He said on the older Compaq laptops, there is memory housed on the mother board.. Typically 4-16MB..

My guess would be 64 standard + 6 on the motherboard.

But I am sure JustRalph Gates will give me the more accurate detail..

Boy...this is fun huh? Probably has an adjustable amount available for video.......that is built on the motherboard. If that is the case you can crank it down in the bios setup. It could then show 70 as the amount.......that is the only way you can get a number like 70......but you don't normally use that number when quoting the amount of ram on your system........no big deal.......but it might be robbing from your video. Which means that you might a get a little better performance by allocating that back to the video allotment.

Tons of good stuff going on in here......

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by penguinfan
My laptop has a pentium 4 and 1024 ram, I seem to have no trouble with XP pro except when I open Outlook Express for the first time after start up it take a really long time to open:confused:

Penquin........great system........

the outlook taking a while means you probably have a ton of contacts........or you keep all of your old mail and never delete anything. cull it down and you might find it works faster. FYI

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by raybo
RE:< start looking for a real P3 processor to put in it. If the motherboard will take it........ they are cheap>

How would I find out if the motherboard will accept a Pentium chip? Would HP be able to tell me by the serial # of the machine? This seems to be the most logical step, upgrading the processor, but I really don't know much about which motherboards accept which chips.

If you can find out what motherboard it is (try this, on boot up from a shut down, when the screen is black, hit the pause key on your keyboard to stop the "post" you know the writing that is displayed on the black screen, it may say right there what kind of board it is) you can then visit the manufactures website and inquire as to what chips work in it. Even though it is an HP or some other brand, they usually buy from just a few different vendors. Oh yeah........to restart the boot up ...hit any key....

Or post the HP model number and we can look around.

[sq764]

"...but you don't normally use that number when quoting the amount of ram on your system"

Justralph, how should you quote this amount of RAM then??

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by sq764
"...but you don't normally use that number when quoting the amount of ram on your system"

Justralph, how should you quote this amount of RAM then??

Depending on the Motherboard it is actually video ram or onboard motherboard ram that is on a seperate chip soldered to the motherboard. So in the case we are speaking about you would say the machine has "64 megs of ram" because to add ram to the system, or select a compatible amount for upgrade etc, you can't count the onboard ram. In fact some programs and other hardware only looks at the ram slots. It won't even detect that seperate onboard soldered motherboard ram. It works both ways too. But not to our advantage. Lets say you have a motherboard that has 64 megs of ram but has no onboard video ram (they do make them) and the system allots variable amounts of your "regular ram" for video. You select in the bios for the machine to use "4 megs" for video. Now whenever you check ram it will only report 60 megs. But sometimes it reports the whole amount depending on the motherboard. This normally is not a problem until you install a program that requires 64 megs. Then this smart ass program is able to detect that 4 megs are addressed as video ram and discontinues the install because all you have is "60 megs" even though you have actually 64. It sucks...... but as a more precise answer to your question........if asked you would respond "the machine has 64 megs of ram" because the 64 megs is "real ram" in the ram slots. And some programs or hardware won't even I.D. the other stuff.

[sq764]

Ok, so when I check the properties of the computer, i should just completely ignore the RAM that is listed..

Gotcha, thanks for the insight.

[PaceAdvantage]

You're running XP on 64MB of ram? WOW! You must be a very patient man....

I've got 512MB running Win2K and I'm always meaning to buy another stick to make it an even gig....

[sq764]

Noooo, 70 RAM!! :-)

[PaceAdvantage]

Actually the computer may report it as 70, but you probably have 64meg installed.

As an example, I installed 512meg of ram into my machine. but Windows 2000 on the properties screen says I have 523,760kb or 523.76meg.....

Conventional wisdom says this is 512megs

[sq764]

The other computer I use is in the 750 RAM 'ballpark'.. It's obviously quicker, but I don't see as big a difference between the 2 as I would expect..

[raybo]

RE:< If you can find out what motherboard it is (try this, on boot up from a shut down, when the screen is black, hit the pause key on your keyboard to stop the "post" you know the writing that is displayed on the black screen, it may say right there what kind of board it is) you can then visit the manufactures website and inquire as to what chips work in it. Even though it is an HP or some other brand, they usually buy from just a few different vendors. Oh yeah........to restart the boot up ...hit any key....

Or post the HP model number and we can look around.>


I have found out that the chipset is an "Intel 810 L" and the computer model number is "HP Pavillion 8630", further, it appears that "Celeron" processors work with "Slot-1" and "Socket 370" motherboards, so I assume that the motherboard is one of those types. As far as I can tell, "socket 370" supports all Intel processors from "Celeron" 500 mgz. to Pentium III 800mgz/100. How much improvement over the Celeron 500 can we expect from a Pentium III 800/100? I know the integrated graphics is part of the problem too and will try to find a decent 64 mb video card to plug in so we don't have to share the ram. We just want to get his machine to operate smoothly while viewing the track video and wagering online. Right now he is experiencing some pretty good delays while switching views on the "Live odds and wagering" screen on Brisbet. I don't have that problem on my machine so it has to be his processor or an OS problem causing it.

I built my computer from scratch but have never really messed with upgrading a "dinosaur" before. I tried to get him to let me build him an Athlon XP based system like mine but he's too cheap. I told him it would probably be cheaper to build a new one than to upgrade this old one. He still has the first dollar he earned, I think.

Thanks for your help guys.

[JustRalph]

Do the processor only, first. The 810 Chipsets are famous for not getting along well with an add in video card. Just as a question.......does it have an AGP slot? Some 810's don't. If my memory serves me right (don't count on it) Intel changed the 815 chipset so that it would automatically shut off the onboard video card just because so many people bitched about not being able to add a card to 810 boxes.

Processor and then a Ram upgrade is all I recommend. Processor first. See what happens. Because if it doesn't run decent with a processor upgrade.......don't do anything else. You are done.

[raybo]

RE:<Processor and then a Ram upgrade is all I recommend. Processor first. See what happens. Because if it doesn't run decent with a processor upgrade.......don't do anything else. You are done.>

This computer does not have an AGP slot. So, I guess that settles that. We have already upgraded the ram to 256 MB and that's all the motherboard will accept. I agree that if a processor upgrade doesn't noticeably improve performance then that's as far as we should go with this machine.

Thanks for your comments and help.

Ray

[penguinfan]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Penquin........great system........

the outlook taking a while means you probably have a ton of contacts........or you keep all of your old mail and never delete anything. cull it down and you might find it works faster. FYI

Thank you sir, and guilty as charged, I never delete anything.

[lousycapperiii]

Anybody out there using MS XP Service Pack II Beta? It appears to be more MS bloat for security. I think a router will do just as well... 160MB for security???? Ugh!

-LC3

[DJofSD]

I've done multiple upgrades to HP Pavillion's though not the exact model discussed here running 500MHz.

There usually is a requirement to upgrade the BIOS before upgrading to XP. Was that done?

DJofSD

[raybo]

RE:<There usually is a requirement to upgrade the BIOS before upgrading to XP. Was that done?>

We just followed the instructions that came with the software. The installation went smoothly and the system worked ok, it's just slow. I have done some tweaks since my last post here and cleaned up some things on his system and it appears to be doing a better job. We still are considering the processor upgrade to the max for this motherboard, I think it will take a Pentium 800mgz or so. That should give it some more power, I would think.

[raybo]

Still considering uninstalling the XP Home upgrade(and Windows 98 if possible) and installing XP Pro full version. Any suggestions or comments along these lines anybody?

[Larry Hamilton]

When these XP's first came out, we were told that other than networking, we should see little difference between Home and Pro, update and full. I have used all 4 at one time or another, I think the pro full is better, slicker, smother, but it's nothing I can put my finger on and as the difference in these 4 come in hundred dollar increments...pick your poison. One more thing, there is a new MS monster laying in wait for us called LongHorn. Not out yet, but will you take the bet, when will it have a SP1?

[Kappa]

My suggestion would be a 'clean' install, not an upgrade. Less things to go wrong. I have done many Win 2K and Win XP packages, and generally, the results are better wihen you don't use the upgrade route.

Just my $19.11 worth.

Herman

[raybo]

Is it possible to uninstall the Windows 98 OS that I upgraded to XP? I know there is an uninstall for the XP upgrade, but I'd like to get rid of 98 too and start fresh with a new install of XP Pro Full Version. I suppose I could go as far as formatting the disk if I had to, but not exactly sure how to do that, as I've never formatted a hard disk before. Do you just right click the disk and select "format" or is there more involved?

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by raybo
Is it possible to uninstall the Windows 98 OS that I upgraded to XP? I know there is an uninstall for the XP upgrade, but I'd like to get rid of 98 too and start fresh with a new install of XP Pro Full Version. I suppose I could go as far as formatting the disk if I had to, but not exactly sure how to do that, as I've never formatted a hard disk before. Do you just right click the disk and select "format" or is there more involved?

much more involved...unless it is not the primary disk....but from the discussion above........it sounds like you only have one hard drive.

[Larry Hamilton]

As I recall the full install of XP Pro will offer you a choice, save the OS thats already there, or erase all other OS.


good choice

whoops, sorry i butted in, you guys handle it, I am going to bed..

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
As I recall the full install of XP Pro will offer you a choice, save the OS thats already there, or erase all other OS.
good choice
whoops, sorry i butted in, you guys handle it, I am going to bed..

Larry is right......I run one like that........works great....
But it seems it is a little late now........

[raybo]

RE:<As I recall the full install of XP Pro will offer you a choice, save the OS thats already there, or erase all other OS.>

Larry,

I installed XP Pro on this machine, as I built it from scratch, but I don't remember having the option to remove previous versions of windows. If that is the case then that will make this task much simpler. I really like Pro, it runs quite smoothly and doesn't have the instability that I experienced before when I was using 98 SE on my previous machine. I had never used XP Home before doing this upgrade for my partner's machine. But, I'd read in PC Mag, or somewhere, that Pro was a better OS anyway.

Thanks for butting in, Larry :)

JustRalph,

To answer your question, yes, there is only one hard drive on his machine. What else is involved in formatting the drive? Can't you just clean the disk and start a new install with the XP Pro CD? I'm not worried about losing anything on his machine, so I don't have to backup any apps. I can load Office XP from a reseller's disk I have and any other apps he'll need I probably have disks for, too. All he uses the machine for is accessing the internet for horse racing data and wagering online via Brisbet.

I'd kinda like to clean out the drive anyway to make sure we start with a good clean machine with no viruses, etc., if it's not too complicated.

[JustRalph]

try this, boot from the Xp setup disk and run setup:

If the hard drive or partition has a previous installation of XP you want to remove, choose to delete the partition by pressing "D". You will then be prompted to create a new partition in the empty space. This will remove all data from the deleted space.

and away you go.........

here is a link with more than enough info for you.....

http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html

[Red Knave]

I have just skimmed through this thread so this may have already been suggested and I missed it. If so, sorry. If not, this sped up my notebook a lot. Make sure you get the correct accelerator setup for your chipset.

http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/iaa/

good luck.

[Larry Hamilton]

when you get it formatted and new Xp pro on the hd, consider purchasing Drive Image. If you do, make a mirror image of your hd and save it to cd's or another hd, or anything EXTERNAL. Put that external image in your bank deposit box and you wont have to worry about virus, children playing with you settings etc ever again...it is worth the investment in STRESS RELIEF