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BIG HIT
12-25-2013, 07:48 AM
Have not seen any discushion about his book's here form cycles or tropical down.Has anybody read them did they have any worh while insight.Just think he sound good in the cx reports i have read any anybody want give there thought welcome

Pensacola Pete
12-25-2013, 04:34 PM
Have not seen any discushion about his book's here form cycles or tropical down.Has anybody read them did they have any worh while insight.Just think he sound good in the cx reports i have read any anybody want give there thought welcome

All of his books will give you something to think about. If you get one good idea out of a book, it's worth its money.

BIG HIT
12-25-2013, 09:57 PM
pensacola pete have a happy xmas and happy new year

infrontby1
12-25-2013, 10:01 PM
Have not seen any discushion about his book's here form cycles or tropical down.Has anybody read them did they have any worh while insight.Just think he sound good in the cx reports i have read any anybody want give there thought welcome

If you can get your hands on a copy of Thoroughbred Cycles, then do so. One of the best writings on an obscure area of handicapping when written circa 1990.

Very intense reading.

thaskalos
12-26-2013, 01:03 AM
Mark Cramer is the only handicapping author that I would classify as a true "contrarian".

BlueShoe
12-26-2013, 11:33 AM
Mark Cramer is the only handicapping author that I would classify as a true "contrarian".
Some good thoughts in his "Kinky Handicapping." While it was done 20 years ago, still worthwhile. His views on lack of betting action on obvious favorites is still relevant today Imo.

MJC922
12-26-2013, 12:14 PM
Everyone is worth a read, I agree 100% with those who say even if you get a little something out of an entire book it's well worth it in the long run. With that said, I had an extensive handicapping library 15 or so years back and owned three or four of Cramer's books -- I never got much out of them. I mean no disrespect to him, I don't doubt he's a solid handicapper and the books were well written. If I were in a losing streak though one of the things I liked to do was to take a week or two off from racing, rest and recalibrate my thinking by going back to some of the books.

Typically that would be Beyer, Quirin or Ainslie.

Clocker
12-26-2013, 02:13 PM
Some good thoughts in his "Kinky Handicapping." While it was done 20 years ago, still worthwhile. His views on lack of betting action on obvious favorites is still relevant today Imo.

There is an excerpt from that book on his web site (http://www.altiplanopublications.com/kinkyhandicapping.htm).

Cramer now lives in Europe, and has written a new book about traveling to various race tracks by bicycle. It includes a lot of his latest thoughts on handicapping. Excerpt from Handicapping on the Road. (http://www.altiplanopublications.com/index.html)

The new book details a new approach to handicapping he has developed call the Short Form (http://www.handicapping.com/shortform1.htm), a simple screen for contenders to see if a race is playable before spending a lot of time handicapping it.

Clocker
12-26-2013, 02:16 PM
Mark Cramer is the only handicapping author that I would classify as a true "contrarian".

One of the most qualitative handicappers in a world of number crunchers. I'm starting to lean more in that direction, as all of my figures keeping giving me short priced horses.

zimal2
12-27-2013, 01:44 AM
Cramer is first of all that remarkable rare person who has crafted a life as he would want it to be. In addition to his handicapping books, he's written a book of vignettes about Paris (where he lives) past and present; another about bicycle friendly cities. He has devoted himself to try to stop the slaughter of racehorses at retirement.
He teaches English at a university level while handicapping daily. He continues to challenge himself to find new ways to look at races. For example, he described how in France the trainer 's comments are a regular
and expected part of handicapping. He found that 95% or more were honest but there were profits in discerning when the less than 5% were or weren't telling the truth.
He writes little pieces for Ed Bain's newsletter and I find each of them pearls of wisdom. Not least of all his astute observations about foreign horses in the Breeders Cup which I've regularly used as keys.

DeltaLover
12-27-2013, 03:29 AM
I find his theories and overall approach to be really outdated and old fashioned. Maybe a good writer but from what I understand, not a professional gambler. A wannabe at best...

Robert Goren
12-27-2013, 08:27 AM
I find his theories and overall approach to be really outdated and old fashioned. Maybe a good writer but from what I understand, not a professional gambler. A wannabe at best...While his stuff may be interesting and give you something to think about, I have yet to run across anyone who made a profit on any thing he wrote or was able to incorporate any of it into a successful handicapping method. You may find enjoyment in his writing, but you probably won't find gold.

Tom
12-27-2013, 09:59 AM
While his stuff may be interesting and give you something to think about, I have yet to run across anyone who made a profit on any thing he wrote or was able to incorporate any of it into a successful handicapping method. You may find enjoyment in his writing, but you probably won't find gold.

Oh, you have talked to how many people? :rolleyes:

Tom
12-27-2013, 10:02 AM
I find his theories and overall approach to be really outdated and old fashioned. Maybe a good writer but from what I understand, not a professional gambler. A wannabe at best...

Things are not old fashioned if they work.
Who ever said he was a professional gambler?
He is a professional writer with a good head on his shoulders.

Robert Goren
12-27-2013, 10:46 AM
Oh, you have talked to how many people? :rolleyes: probably 3 or 4 who have read some of Cramer's books. How many have you talked to and found any them to be useful?

Cheap Speed
12-27-2013, 11:03 AM
I own most of his books and found them to be useful and interesting. He is a little bit of a contrarian so if you are a strict Numbers person and have no interest in broadening your views, you probably wont like his books.

He probably is more geared to the part time player in that he often has ideas that try to reduce handicapping time vs the classic handicapping grinders.

Clocker
12-27-2013, 01:25 PM
I own most of his books and found them to be useful and interesting. He is a little bit of a contrarian so if you are a strict Numbers person and have no interest in broadening your views, you probably wont like his books.


I think that most people that don't like his stuff are looking for a magic bullet, either a plug and play system where you just plug in the data, or that final elusive tweak to their own system that makes it perfect.

Most of his writings deal with various aspects of handicapping that help you think about, or add value to, a comprehensive (i.e., old fashion) handicapping approach.

Although he does admit that he is always looking for an angle that produces an automatic bet. One he uses is a trainer angle, betting a horse dropping from a MSW to Mdn Claiming accompanied by a rider change to a leading jockey. These things come out of his studies on specific aspects of handicapping, such as trainer tendencies and intent.

Tom
12-27-2013, 09:19 PM
probably 3 or 4 who have read some of Cramer's books. How many have you talked to and found any them to be useful?

Several, including myself.

mistergee
12-27-2013, 10:16 PM
i believe the initial question in the thread asked about tropical downs, which if my memory is correct was a novel, not a handicapping book

highnote
12-28-2013, 04:42 AM
"Tropical Downs" is a fantastic novel. I highly recommend it if you like fiction. Cramer has a Ph.D. in Romance Language and has lived in South America where the book is set. He is from Brooklyn, NY, but currently lives in Paris, France.

"Scared Money" is also another terrific novel by Cramer.

"Funky Town" is a fun read. It is non-fiction and is about funky/trendy/hip/artsy towns that also have legal pari-mutuel wagering.

All his handicapping books are valuable in my opinion because of his contrarian views.

One of my favorite Cramer angles is "Ass on the Grass".

I found a good Maiden Special Weight drop down angle from Cramer that is worth investigating. I had to tweak Cramer's angle to get it to work because his angle didn't hold up over a large sample, but once I added a couple of exclusions to his angle its profitability improved.

TheEdge07
12-28-2013, 08:48 AM
My favorite "Please hold all tickets"

As far as old fashion and outdated...this applies to 85% of handicappers....theres no magic bullet...

1.trip handicapping has been used for years
2.Beyer, Sheets, replays, pace figures, bias notes have been used for years
3.trainer angles used for years
4.before formulator cramer had a data base for certain angles

Cramer has never claimed to be a professional handicapper..

dkithore
12-28-2013, 10:28 AM
I own most of his books and found them to be useful and interesting. He is a little bit of a contrarian so if you are a strict Numbers person and have no interest in broadening your views, you probably wont like his books.

He probably is more geared to the part time player in that he often has ideas that try to reduce handicapping time vs the classic handicapping grinders.
Fine summation of his work. I find him original and authentic. Not many can follow his advise to follow epicurean way (selective in betting races). Perhaps that is the key to solvency. If you read his book, handicapping on the road, you realize that he has unique style of approaching the game. Admittedly it is not for many who can not pass races (me included).

mannyberrios
12-28-2013, 12:52 PM
While his stuff may be interesting and give you something to think about, I have yet to run across anyone who made a profit on any thing he wrote or was able to incorporate any of it into a successful handicapping method. You may find enjoyment in his writing, but you probably won't find gold.There is gold in your posts

Cheap Speed
01-01-2014, 10:24 AM
What books/authors do you still find gold in their books 10+yrs later?

Clocker
01-01-2014, 11:35 AM
What books/authors do you still find gold in their books 10+yrs later?

Especially if you didn't read the author to begin with. :rolleyes:

thaskalos
01-01-2014, 06:10 PM
What books/authors do you still find gold in their books 10+yrs later?

It depends on where the player happens to be in his horse-playing journey.

The relative beginner can find gold nuggets in many places...but those gold nuggets get more and more scarce as the player gains in knowledge and experience.

Eventually...it gets to a point where the only nuggets that are worth anything are the ones that the player unearths by himself.

Harvhorse
01-15-2014, 09:25 PM
his 2yo to 3yo angle is the best I have ever used. Very profitable for me,

Tom
01-15-2014, 09:39 PM
It depends on where the player happens to be in his horse-playing journey.

The relative beginner can find gold nuggets in many places...but those gold nuggets get more and more scarce as the player gains in knowledge and experience.

Eventually...it gets to a point where the only nuggets that are worth anything are the ones that the player unearths by himself.

Maybe the player gets to smart for his own good. The nuggets might still work without supplementing them with experience?

Robert Goren
01-15-2014, 10:53 PM
What books/authors do you still find gold in their books 10+yrs later?You probably won't find any. I will say that books of Cramer's were not 10 years old when I read them. During that era I read every handicapping book that reasonably priced soon after it came out. For the record I am pretty high on Randy Giles's book. The first book I have found useful since some the early Beyer's books. It is ten years old yet but it is 5 or 6 years old and I have just read it. I don't read as much as I use to.

Cheap Speed
01-16-2014, 06:37 PM
For the record I am pretty high on Randy Giles's book. The first book I have found useful since some the early Beyer's books.

We agree on the Giles book. It was a good match for how I was capping anyway. I still use a couple of things from the book in my Handicapping. Talked with Randy about his program and tested it out a few yrs ago. He seems like a very good guy and was helpful.