Should we be impressed with this touchdown record?

[JustRalph]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/peyton-manning-breaks-single-season-touchdown-passes-record/

Manning throws 51 TD's

I think this is more a reflection of the change in the game. Winning teams seem to be passing much more than in the past.

If you can't pass, you can't win. That's the bottom line today. There are no dominate running teams anymore.

Btw, how Manning gets some of these wounded ducks to the receivers is amazing to me. The ball just seems to get there no matter how bad it looks

[burnsy]

Its impressive by any standards but other guys used to throw 30 + every year during the time you are talking about. The defense was allowed to play then and Qb's like Marino were on shit teams and he still threw alot of them. Its different today but its still impressive.

[cj's dad]

wasn't it one time a 12 game then a 14 game season ?? Is that factored in ??

[reckless]

wasn't it one time a 12 game then a 14 game season ?? Is that factored in ??

Sort of like an asterisk...

Touchdowns in a season, Peyton Manning 51*

Too bad Ford Frick isn't around to offer his thoughts.

[cj's dad]

Sort of like an asterisk...

Touchdowns in a season, Peyton Manning 51*

Too bad Ford Frick isn't around to offer his thoughts.


Many here will not get that reference.

[Dave Schwartz]

I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall that YA Tittle set the record back in the 60s with like 34 (???).

If my memory serves, this is a 50% increase from those days. Pretty amazing.

(I did not Google this but just might to see if I am right.)

[thaskalos]

It's impressive...but not as impressive as Dan Marino's 48 TD passes in 1984.

The new rules take away some of Manning's luster...IMO.

[ManU918]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/peyton-manning-breaks-single-season-touchdown-passes-record/

Manning throws 51 TD's

I think this is more a reflection of the change in the game. Winning teams seem to be passing much more than in the past.

If you can't pass, you can't win. That's the bottom line today. There are no dominate running teams anymore.

Btw, how Manning gets some of these wounded ducks to the receivers is amazing to me. The ball just seems to get there no matter how bad it looks

The game changing has nothing to do with this... Manning has 51 and the next closest is at 36. It's not like Manning broke the record and 4 other players are within striking distance of Brady's old record. On top of that, when Brady broke the record, it was Manning's record that he broke.

I disagree with your running comment... Look at the Eagles. They have 300 more rushing yards then the next closest team.

[headhawg]

The game changing has nothing to do with this...You're joking, right? If Marino played with today's rules he would have had 100. 51 TDs is fairly impressive but come on...DBs can't even breathe on a WR without getting pass interference called. And the players might as well be wearing flags because they can't be tackled without drawing a penalty. Welcome to the NFFL -- the National Flag Football League.

[ManU918]

You're joking, right? If Marino played with today's rules he would have had 100. 51 TDs is fairly impressive but come on...DBs can't even breathe on a WR without getting pass interference called. And the players might as well be wearing flags because they can't be tackled without drawing a penalty. Welcome to the NFFL -- the National Flag Football League.

Really? Because if that were the case at a minimum wouldn't 5 QBs break or come close to Marino's 48 touchdown mark every season?

[ManU918]

It's impressive...but not as impressive as Dan Marino's 48 TD passes in 1984.

The new rules take away some of Manning's luster...IMO.

Of course the older generations will think Marino's season was better and that's fine... I think Manning had what, 100 more attempts this season? So if you want to look at it from that point of view, I understand your argument.

There's no doubt a player like Marino could play in today's NFL. Unlike a player like Sid Luckman who threw what 24 touchdowns and 31 interceptions?

[Robert Goren]

Manning still has a game to play, so the new record will be 55 or so. I was a little bit more impressed by the 51 of Brady. Manning has been aided by system that take advantage of the altitude in Denver. We get most of their games and watching those teams huffing and puffing in the fourth quarter makes you wonder why other Denver coaches haven't used a fast paced offense there.

[headhawg]

Really? Because if that were the case at a minimum wouldn't 5 QBs break or come close to Marino's 48 touchdown mark every season?Only if you think that there are that many good QBs in this league. There's Brees and who else? Brady? Possible, but not with the team he's got. Rodgers? Probably. And who else? Romo. Not. Russell Wilson? Nope. Flacco? Please.

Besides, Manning's 49 in 2004 was more impressive to me anyway. (Also, Brady's 50 but still not as good as Peyton's year, imo.)

And I just love your reference to the "older" generation. Yeah. We're all senile and know nothing about football. :rolleyes:

[ManU918]

Only if you think that there are that many good QBs in this league. There's Brees and who else? Brady? Possible, but not with the team he's got. Rodgers? Probably. And who else? Romo. Not. Russell Wilson? Nope. Flacco? Please.

Besides, Manning's 49 in 2004 was more impressive to me anyway. (Also, Brady's 50 but still not as good as Peyton's year, imo.)

And I just love your reference to the "older" generation. Yeah. We're all senile and know nothing about football. :rolleyes:

So now your backtracking on your original post? First its the "National Flag Football League and Marino could have thrown 100" and now its there aren't enough good QB's in the league?

If it was that easy to do like you made it seem in your first post, then QB's like Rodgers and Brees (without injury) should be able to put up 48 TD's every year... Instead neither of them have ever reached that number. There's a reason why Manning and Brady broke Marino's record. Because they are both better Quarterbacks.

[ManU918]

Manning still has a game to play, so the new record will be 55 or so. I was a little bit more impressed by the 51 of Brady. Manning has been aided by system that take advantage of the altitude in Denver. We get most of their games and watching those teams huffing and puffing in the fourth quarter makes you wonder why other Denver coaches haven't used a fast paced offense there.

Seriously? Of the 51 touchdowns 24 of them have come on the road. I wouldn't put it out of the question for Manning to throw 3 next week vs the Raiders and end up with 54... 27-home and 27-road touchdowns.

I guess when Tom Brady threw 50 he wasn't aided by anything... Randy Moss must of just been lucky enough to catch a record 23 touchdowns that season.

[Robert Goren]

There are a bunch of QBs in the NFL who with right system and the right personnel could get close to 50 TDs. The top 4 and the likes Rivers, Eli, Stafford, Luck, maybe the guy in Philly, or Ben.

[Grits]

And I just love your reference to the "older" generation. Yeah. We're all senile and know nothing about football. :rolleyes:

Headhawg, for one who tries to elevate himself in every way above others, he consistently falls flat on his face. Maybe one day, he'll gain some respect. Quit seeking attention constantly, grow up and stop writing like a fool.

Remember, this is the guy who told us all...about the @$$ he has to turn down because he's so good looking. :faint:

(I'll never forget this one, and I'm not likely to let YOU forget it either.) :lol:

[ManU918]

Headhawg, for one who tries to elevate himself in every way above others, he consistently falls flat on his face. Maybe one day, he'll gain some respect. Quit seeking attention constantly, grow up and stop writing like a fool.

Remember, this is the guy who told us all...about the @$$ he has to turn down because he's so good looking. :faint:

(I'll never forget this one, and I'm not likely to let YOU forget it either.) :lol:

You need to move on and get a life. We are having a football conversation here. If you have a personal problem with me then lets deal with it on a personal level. Not in a thread that is about football.

I average one post a day... If I were looking for attention, one post a day isn't going to do it. I constantly fall flat on my face? Where is all of this coming from? "Maybe one day I'll gain some respect... grow up and stop writing like a fool"?

On a side note, yes I am very proud to have been with my girlfriend for the last seven years and have never cheated on her once. When I could have many of times. I think that's the point I was probably trying to make.

Bring your hate somewhere else...

[headhawg]

So now your backtracking on your original post? First its the "National Flag Football League and Marino could have thrown 100" and now its there aren't enough good QB's in the league?

If it was that easy to do like you made it seem in your first post, then QB's like Rodgers and Brees (without injury) should be able to put up 48 TD's every year... Instead neither of them have ever reached that number. There's a reason why Manning and Brady broke Marino's record. Because they are both better Quarterbacks.You're really not too good at following logic are you? Do you actually read what other people post or just assume things so you can post what you want however illogical it might be? Let me spell this out so you can follow. You posted that the rule changes had no effect on the TD record. If you can't tell that the NFL is now a passing league then you don't watch it much. Look at the stats regarding passing yards, passing TDs, etc. There's an upward trend, no? As they are up across the board it follows that there was a global change that affected this as opposed to an increase in QB ability. What are the odds that all of a sudden QBs are more talented passers now than in years past? Unlikely. Admittedly, they pass more now in college than in the past, but there is still a laundry list of successful college QBs that suck in the NFL. It's more reasonable to believe that NFL rule changes are responsible for the pass stats than some other factor. (Think Occam's Razor. Look it up.) Because of this -- and to answer JR's original question -- the 51+ TDs are inflated. I will reiterate -- Manning's 49 TD year is much more impressive.

And no, I'm not backtracking. I don't think that there are enough good quarterbacks in the league that can throw 50 touchdowns. That doesn't mean that their passing stats aren't still inflated because of the rules. I mean the frickin' great Nick Foles has 25 in half a season. A sure HoFer. :rolleyes: Career backup Josh freaking McCown has 13 in five or so games. So I'm saying that a guy who throws 35 may have had only 25 (or less) based on the rules of 2004. And I don't believe that either Manning or Brady are better than Marino. As I posted, if Marino played now he could have 100 TDs. Makes 51 look pretty average. And I never even hinted in my posts that Brady or Manning weren't great quarterbacks.

[PhantomOnTour]

Matt Stafford threw for 5,000 yds one season - if that's not a sign of the times then I don't know what is.
He is a mediocre QB

I am no longer impressed by single season passing marks (yds or TDs), esp those set by Peyton Manning...ya see because we know what normally comes in the postseason for him:
devastating, season ending interceptions

[Grits]

On a side note, yes I am very proud to have been with my girlfriend for the last seven years and have never cheated on her once. When I could have many of times. I think that's the point I was probably trying to make.

...... THUD. Brad Pitt's proud, gentlemen. :lol::lol::lol:

As for the cheating. Go ahead, cheat all you want. If your girlfriend has half a brain... she won't give a sh!t.

I have no intention of dealing with you on a personal level, as you continue, in your writing to insult others on a public level. When you learn how to string eight words together without doing so, I'll leave your handsome @$$ alone. And this is a promise.

The other stuff you wrote to me--pure garbage. Your post should be edited. What are you 12 years old?

[ManU918]

...... THUD. Brad Pitt's proud, gentlemen. :lol::lol::lol:

As for the cheating. Go ahead, cheat all you want. If your girlfriend has half a brain... she won't give a sh!t.

I have no intention of dealing with you on a personal level, as you continue, in your writing to insult others on a public level. When you learn how to string eight words together without doing so, I'll leave your handsome @$$ alone. And this is a promise.

The other stuff you wrote to me--pure garbage. Your post should be edited. What are you 12 years old?

This thread was perfectly fine before you showed up and went on an unnecessary rant. At no point in this thread was there any personal attacks. I was just giving my opinion on the thread topic... That's what forums are for, are they not?

[proximity]

Look at the stats regarding passing yards, passing TDs, etc. There's an upward trend, no?

the average team threw 1.4 td passes a game in marino's great 1984 season compared to 1.6 td passes a game this season. (14% more)

[Marshall Bennett]

A lot has to do with the fact that in the old days when an offense reached the red zone they'd often simply pound the ball rushing rather than attempt passing. Greats such as Jim Brown, Paul Hornung, or Jim Taylor were specialist in such situations. They shared in touchdown totals with quarterbacks and receivers more than they do now.

[Grits]

ManU918 wrote: Of course the older generations will think Marino's season was better

Headhawg wrote: And I just love your reference to the "older" generation. Yeah. We're all senile and know nothing about football. :rolleyes:

This thread was perfectly fine before you showed up and went on an unnecessary rant. At no point in this thread was there any personal attacks. I was just giving my opinion on the thread topic... That's what forums are for, are they not?

I'm sorry, no, this is not what forums are about. There's a way to write your opinion so it will not be blatantly offensive. And this wasn't your first time of insulting others. Not at all. ... There are gentlemen here, who, for years, have gone back and forth on politics, sports, and everything else in Off Topics along with every other folder, but however opinionated they may be, they know how to exchange their thoughts. Now and then, it spirals downward, but for the most part, they handle themselves fine. Hot headed, yes, but still, ok.

.... So, no, things weren't "fine" here. And Headhawg noted so. I'm not about political correctness. I'm simply about common sense and decency and behaving like an adult, instead of a snotty nose kid.

There are hundreds of gentlemen (and women) here that you can gain insight from--we all learn from one another, regardless the subject matter. Regardless, too, much to your chagrin, the age. One isn't ever "all knowing.

You'll do well if you come to understand--one small fact. ...The only time one needs to stoop is when giving a hand to lift someone up. I stooped today when I stated "she won't give a sh!t". And for this, I hope you'll accept my apology. Either way, please know, I wish you and your girlfriend a beautiful Christmas, a sharing of love and joy. But most of all, the realization that respect benefits us all.

[proximity]

Its impressive by any standards but other guys used to throw 30 + every year during the time you are talking about. The defense was allowed to play then and Qb's like Marino were on shit teams and he still threw alot of them. Its different today but its still impressive.

two losing seasons in 33 years.... coach shula didn't field too many of these teams.

[ManU918]

I'm sorry, no, this is not what forums are about. There's a way to write your opinion so it will not be blatantly offensive. And this wasn't your first time of insulting others. Not at all. ... There are gentlemen here, who, for years, have gone back and forth on politics, sports, and everything else in Off Topics along with every other folder, but however opinionated they may be, they know how to exchange their thoughts. Now and then, it spirals downward, but for the most part, they handle themselves fine. Hot headed, yes, but still, ok.

.... So, no, things weren't "fine" here. And Headhawg noted so. I'm not about political correctness. I'm simply about common sense and decency and behaving like an adult, instead of a snotty nose kid.

There are hundreds of gentlemen (and women) here that you can gain insight from--we all learn from one another, regardless the subject matter. Regardless, too, much to your chagrin, the age. One isn't ever "all knowing.


Where in this thread did I say one thing blatantly offensive? Because I said, "Of course the older generations will think Marino's season was better"? How the hell is that offensive? That's human nature. For example: The younger generations now think LeBron is better than Jordan, AP is better than Sanders, etc... The list goes on and on. That is not a personal attack, it's human nature.

Your comments are really ridiculous... Behaving like an adult, instead of a snotty nose kid??? I don't know where you were brought up or what is going on in your life right now.... But when one says something about the older generations... You should know its not a personal attack.

I talk to a very respected poster on this forum on a personal level who I know is older then you... So your whole thing about me and age discrimination has no substance.

[Robert Fischer]

Most sports records are a product of their environment.

This is certainly not an anomaly type of season performance that could never be repeated, but Manning is the best QB of this era.

[ManU918]

You're really not too good at following logic are you? Do you actually read what other people post or just assume things so you can post what you want however illogical it might be? Let me spell this out so you can follow. You posted that the rule changes had no effect on the TD record. If you can't tell that the NFL is now a passing league then you don't watch it much. Look at the stats regarding passing yards, passing TDs, etc. There's an upward trend, no? As they are up across the board it follows that there was a global change that affected this as opposed to an increase in QB ability. What are the odds that all of a sudden QBs are more talented passers now than in years past? Unlikely. Admittedly, they pass more now in college than in the past, but there is still a laundry list of successful college QBs that suck in the NFL. It's more reasonable to believe that NFL rule changes are responsible for the pass stats than some other factor. (Think Occam's Razor. Look it up.) Because of this -- and to answer JR's original question -- the 51+ TDs are inflated. I will reiterate -- Manning's 49 TD year is much more impressive.

And no, I'm not backtracking. I don't think that there are enough good quarterbacks in the league that can throw 50 touchdowns. That doesn't mean that their passing stats aren't still inflated because of the rules. I mean the frickin' great Nick Foles has 25 in half a season. A sure HoFer. :rolleyes: Career backup Josh freaking McCown has 13 in five or so games. So I'm saying that a guy who throws 35 may have had only 25 (or less) based on the rules of 2004. And I don't believe that either Manning or Brady are better than Marino. As I posted, if Marino played now he could have 100 TDs. Makes 51 look pretty average. And I never even hinted in my posts that Brady or Manning weren't great quarterbacks.

This is where I'm losing you... Marino was not better than Manning or Brady... So for you to sit here and say Marino could put up 100 TDs is ridiculous.

On a side note, I stuck my neck out over 2 months ago on this forum for Nick Foles. He has 25 touchdowns and 2 interceptions through 9.5 games played. Is he great? He certainly isn't there yet but he is off to an amazing start. Is this due to as you would say the league being the "NFFL"? Absolutely not. It's because Nick Foles is accurate, has a nice arm, can read defenses and doesn't try to take off down the field after his first read is covered.

As far as Josh McCown goes... Is he great? Hell no... But when you have 2 wide receivers like Marshall and Jeffery, a QB should be able to put up really good numbers. Given he makes smart decisions. You live in Chicago...I'm sure your more knowledgeable on that situation than me but I have thought this for awhile... Jay Cutler stinks. 17 touchdowns 11 interceptions and 5 fumbles are horrid numbers.

[headhawg]

This is where I'm losing you... Marino was not better than Manning or Brady... So for you to sit here and say Marino could put up 100 TDs is ridiculous.

On a side note, I stuck my neck out over 2 months ago on this forum for Nick Foles. He has 25 touchdowns and 2 interceptions through 9.5 games played. Is he great? He certainly isn't there yet but he is off to an amazing start. Is this due to as you would say the league being the "NFFL"? Absolutely not. It's because Nick Foles is accurate, has a nice arm, can read defenses and doesn't try to take off down the field after his first read is covered.

As far as Josh McCown goes... Is he great? Hell no... But when you have 2 wide receivers like Marshall and Jeffery, a QB should be able to put up really good numbers. Given he makes smart decisions. You live in Chicago...I'm sure your more knowledgeable on that situation than me but I have thought this for awhile... Jay Cutler stinks. 17 touchdowns 11 interceptions and 5 fumbles are horrid numbers.Well, we agree on something anyway. I am not a Cutler fan. If he was a college QB and I was scouting him, the first thing that I would notice is that he locks on to one receiver. I rarely see him go through any progression whatsoever. He's also too much like Jeff George, although more mobile. $10,000,000 arm and a 10 cent head. But he's not a rookie; he's got what...eight years in the league? He's not likely to get better. The Bears would be stupid to sign him or even franchise him, but I don't have much confidence in Phil Emery to make a good decision here.

Your logic is a little flawed again. McCown has a 13 to 1 td/int ratio and it's because of the receivers? Doesn't Cutler throw to the same guys? And if we follow that to its conclusion, you're saying that McCown is a better QB than Cutler? Makes me question your ability to judge quarterbacks. And let's say that in this system McCown is better. Ok. That still has nothing to do with the fact that the league doesn't let DBs cover receivers, you can't tackle anyone without getting a roughing penalty, the QBs can barely be touched without a flag being thrown... If you want to stick by your story that the rules haven't affected the game so be it. McCown is NOT 13 to 1 good.

And yes, Marino was the best pure passer that I ever saw. He had the quickest release, and a strong accurate arm. Let his receivers run around like they were on a playground because they can't get hit and let him stand back in the pocket forever because he can't be touched...yeah...he could throw 100 TDs. Notice that I didn't say he was the best quarterback.

Nick Foles? Well, you can anoint him a QB god if you want. For me it's a little early, although from what little I have seen of him he does make very good decisions. Defenses had trouble with the wildcat at first. When they figure out what Kelly's system is all about, we will see how good Foles is long term.

[Jay Trotter]

Where in this thread did I say one thing blatantly offensive? Because I said, "Of course the older generations will think Marino's season was better"? How the hell is that offensive? That's human nature. ManU, I don't think you said anything offensive. Not sure of the history here but I would say someone was tracking you waiting to comment negatively on something you might say, on football no less!

[Valuist]

Of all the ultra high passing TD numbers, how many came for Super Bowl winning teams? Brady came close, but they got beat. And with that defense, Denver is no lock to win anything this year.

I'm a fan of Manning, but nobody can realistically compare the joke of a game that is now the NFL to a period like the 70s or 80s. Breathe on a receiver now and out comes the penalty flags. After almost any incomplete pass and we see WRs with their hands up basically demanding a penalty is called. Manning would be great in any era but to answer Ralph's original question, it should be taken with a grain of salt.