My friend screams about crooked stewards

[Pensacola Pete]

I just finished a call with my friend. Here's how it went.

Jed: I just got a royal F***ing in a photo.

Pete: What track?

Jed: Charlestown.

Pete: You know better than to play that track. Don't whine to me.

Jed: But look at the replay.

Pete: I don't need to. West Virginia racing is the crookedest in the country, bar none. There's no worse state.

Jed: But watch the replay.

Pete: Fine, and it will be the first time in five years I've watched video from Charlestown. I stopped playing it years ago.

I looked at the replay. #3 was ahead at the wire by a long nose from a fast-closing #7, and got caught 5-10 feet after it. I recorded the replay and did a stop action at the wire. Yep. #3 won by a long nose. I noted the horse's head positions on the wire and 10 feet after it.

Pete: So you bet #3 did you?

Jed: Yes. What did you see?

Pete: I saw a picture taken about 10 feet past the wire. The horse's head positions were those after they'd gone a little ways past the wire.

Jed: You're kidding, right?

Pete: Nope. Charlestown has been doing that for years. I don't have the past performances for that track. Who was the owner and trainer of #3 and #7?

Jed: James Connor on the 3 and Victor Espinosa on the 7.

Pete: Do both horses race regularly at Charlestown?

Jed: No, #3 only has one other race there.

Pete: And #7 has a lot of them, right?

Jed: All of them are at the track.

Pete: Doesn't surprise me. You'll do well to not ever play Charlestown or Mountaineer. I haven't bet Charlestown for years, and I stopped playing Mountaineer recently, even though I can still make a profit there. The B.S. gets old.

Jed: So I got shafted?

Pete: Probably four or five times a night, one way or the other. If not the judges, the jockeys or trainers. Save your money.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
Pete: I saw a picture taken about 10 feet past the wire. The horse's head positions were those after they'd gone a little ways past the wire.

...

While I won't offer any opinion on the nature of that circuit or those tracks, I think that unless you were viewing a photo that came from something other than a photo finish camera, this is well beyond unlikely.

[Some_One]

Yea the guy doesn't know how those types of cameras work (the camera is focused on one spot, takes 24 or 30 photos a second on that spot and is stitched together to the picture you see on the screen)

[Robert Goren]

Yea the guy doesn't know how those types of cameras work (the camera is focused on one spot, takes 24 or 30 photos a second on that spot and is stitched together to the picture you see on the screen) The camera is focused on spot. Then they pull a spool of undeveloped film through the camera. It is on continuous picture as the horses go by on the roll. At least that was they way did before digital cameras. I suspect that they have updated to something they don't have to develop.
I remember joking back in the day about them hunting for right picture. I cracked joke a photo finish camera operator once and he took up the booth showed me how it operated. pretty simple really, but it took somebody pretty smart to come with the method to start with. I actually got to run the camera for a day at a quarter horse track in the late 70s. The licensing was a pain in the neck. Much more rigorous than what I went through to cashier 10 years earlier. I was to be his back up if he got sick some time during the meet. Thankfully he never did.

[BombsAway Bob]

I just finished a call with my friend. Here's how it went.

Jed: I just got a royal F***ing in a photo.

Pete: What track?

Jed: Charlestown.

Pete: You know better than to play that track. Don't whine to me.

Jed: But look at the replay.

Pete: I don't need to. West Virginia racing is the crookedest in the country, bar none. There's no worse state.

Jed: But watch the replay.

Pete: Fine, and it will be the first time in five years I've watched video from Charlestown. I stopped playing it years ago.

I looked at the replay. #3 was ahead at the wire by a long nose from a fast-closing #7, and got caught 5-10 feet after it. I recorded the replay and did a stop action at the wire. Yep. #3 won by a long nose. I noted the horse's head positions on the wire and 10 feet after it.

Pete: So you bet #3 did you?

Jed: Yes. What did you see?

Pete: I saw a picture taken about 10 feet past the wire. The horse's head positions were those after they'd gone a little ways past the wire.

Jed: You're kidding, right?

Pete: Nope. Charlestown has been doing that for years. I don't have the past performances for that track. Who was the owner and trainer of #3 and #7?

Jed: James Connor on the 3 and Victor Espinosa on the 7.

Pete: Do both horses race regularly at Charlestown?

Jed: No, #3 only has one other race there.

Pete: And #7 has a lot of them, right?

Jed: All of them are at the track.

Pete: Doesn't surprise me. You'll do well to not ever play Charlestown or Mountaineer. I haven't bet Charlestown for years, and I stopped playing Mountaineer recently, even though I can still make a profit there. The B.S. gets old.

Jed: So I got shafted?

Pete: Probably four or five times a night, one way or the other. If not the judges, the jockeys or trainers. Save your money.
REDBOARD: i had a saver $1 DD from 6th live, (3)(7-10)=$2.
When they crossed wire & Jeff called #3 holding on,
i was really bummed. Replay shot looks like it was taken
from Blimp-Cam. Turned Losing night into winning one.
Still think #3 won the race

[proximity]

the finish line at charles town (2 words) slants backwards and there used to be an overhead wire that clearly showed this if you were there live. that being said, I woulda thought the 3 had that one. :confused:

side story: one player I know was really upset about an inquiry there one night and actually called the stewards, lol. of course the steward he talked to told him it was a 2-1 decision with that particular steward of course being the one who sided with my friend. :D

[Greyfox]

I looked at the replay. #3 was ahead at the wire by a long nose from a fast-closing #7, and got caught 5-10 feet after it. I recorded the replay and did a stop action at the wire. Yep. #3 won by a long nose. I noted the horse's head positions on the wire and 10 feet after it.

.

I've seen that happen.
In fact I was standing with a jockey at the finish line one day and we both agreed that an inside horse won by a head.
The picture didn't show that.
Of course the photo shown at most small tracks seldom shows any background to compare the running figures to.

[TJDave]

A crooked steward, how does he cash in? ;)

[sammy the sage]

it happens at other tracks too....esp. when they post results TOO FAST and NO photo is EVER shown...

[Stillriledup]

I don't know, maybe i need thick glasses, but can you please tell me why there was no inquiry on the 6 horse in the 8th race on June 11th?

Mr Ripken (the horse) crashed out into an onrushing 4 horse and cost him 4th or at least the opportunity to be 4th. I don't know if the 6 cost the 3rd place finisher a board spot, but he crashed the 4 who might have been 4th if he didnt have to take up sharply.

Unless i was seeing things?

Whizz? :D

[SharpCat]

I watched the head on several times. The 4 horse came in and made contact with the rear end of the 6 horse who had maintained a straight path thus causing his own problems. That's the reason why there was no inquiry or jockey's hold.

[andtheyreoff]

I don't know, maybe i need thick glasses, but can you please tell me why there was no inquiry on the 6 horse in the 8th race on June 11th?

Mr Ripken (the horse) crashed out into an onrushing 4 horse and cost him 4th or at least the opportunity to be 4th. I don't know if the 6 cost the 3rd place finisher a board spot, but he crashed the 4 who might have been 4th if he didnt have to take up sharply.

Unless i was seeing things?

Whizz? :D

Wait a sec, aren't you the same guy who always says there should be fewer inquiries? And now you're complaining a track didn't call an inquiry? :bang:

[wiffleball whizz]

Don't trust photo finishes or stewards.... There is never any background on the photo finish cameras....

People that say all of this is on the up and up really needs a reality check....

I'll go to my grave saying there wrong photo finish results posted...

Also think that photos are archived and can be dug up and used again down the road.....I just don't trust anybody

[wisconsin]

Don't trust photo finishes or stewards.... There is never any background on the photo finish cameras....

People that say all of this is on the up and up really needs a reality check....

I'll go to my grave saying there wrong photo finish results posted...

Also think that photos are archived and can be dug up and used again down the road.....I just don't trust anybody

How can you play a game that you think is rigged?

There is no background because the photo is taken from the mirror, so the "background" is a reverse angle of the horses in the photo. Some tracks do not show you the expanded shot unless it's a blanket finish where the reverse angle reveals the winner.

[wiffleball whizz]

How can you play a game that you think is rigged?

There is no background because the photo is taken from the mirror, so the "background" is a reverse angle of the horses in the photo. Some tracks do not show you the expanded shot unless it's a blanket finish where the reverse angle reveals the winner.

Because I'm a degenerate gambler who loves the action-----true story

[Stillriledup]

Wait a sec, aren't you the same guy who always says there should be fewer inquiries? And now you're complaining a track didn't call an inquiry? :bang:

I'm all for consistency. If a track wants to have an inquiry on every race and nit pick stuff to death, than at least you know what you're getting into if you bet their place. Just be consistent.

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't trust photo finishes or stewards.... There is never any background on the photo finish cameras....

People that say all of this is on the up and up really needs a reality check....

I'll go to my grave saying there wrong photo finish results posted...

Also think that photos are archived and can be dug up and used again down the road.....I just don't trust anybodyYou should personally never bet on a horse race ever again.

[Dark Horse]

Horse racing needs one national center that looks after this type of technology, and that makes the stewards decisions. Easy enough with today's technology. Photo goes instantly to national center and decision is returned within minutes. Consistency, accuracy, and far less chance at corruption. Just too bad horse racing insists on being stuck in the stone age.

[wiffleball whizz]

You should personally never bet on a horse race ever again.

Come on.....I love the game too much :lol: :lol:

And you met this conspiracy theorist about only 115 hours ago :lol: :lol: did I at least seem normal? I was a little star struck in all honesty... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

You seemed quite normal, in a Jerry Bossert kind of way....lol

[Stillriledup]

Horse racing needs one national center that looks after this type of technology, and that makes the stewards decisions. Easy enough with today's technology. Photo goes instantly to national center and decision is returned within minutes. Consistency, accuracy, and far less chance at corruption. Just too bad horse racing insists on being stuck in the stone age.

This is a fantastic idea, you would get consistent rulings all over the place, there would no need to worry about judges who had personal vendettas against people on their circuit either.

And, you wouldn't need all these stewards at each track, they could cut payroll and pass the savings onto the bettors with cheaper coffee and pastries.

[johnhannibalsmith]

This is a fantastic idea, you would get consistent rulings all over the place, there would no need to worry about judges who had personal vendettas against people on their circuit either.

...

Just curious why you think the human element would suddenly improve just by centralizing things. Where will the central authorities come from? Some secondary pool of horse racing talent from which the current crop isn't cultivated?

[Stillriledup]

Just curious why you think the human element would suddenly improve just by centralizing things. Where will the central authorities come from? Some secondary pool of horse racing talent from which the current crop isn't cultivated?

I dont know if it would improve, but at least it would be more consistent.

[tanner12oz]

the finish line at charles town (2 words) slants backwards and there used to be an overhead wire that clearly showed this if you were there live. that being said, I woulda thought the 3 had that one. :confused:

side story: one player I know was really upset about an inquiry there one night and actually called the stewards, lol. of course the steward he talked to told him it was a 2-1 decision with that particular steward of course being the one who sided with my friend. :D

why on earth tracks cannot provide the correct angle of the finish is beyond me

[thespaah]

Don't trust photo finishes or stewards.... There is never any background on the photo finish cameras....

People that say all of this is on the up and up really needs a reality check....

I'll go to my grave saying there wrong photo finish results posted...

Also think that photos are archived and can be dug up and used again down the road.....I just don't trust anybody
WOW...Just WOW...
Let me ask....To who's benefit?
What I find amusing is all this speculation and conspiracy theories put forth by suspicious and cynical individuals never ask the one most important question....
Who benefits?
IN this day of video voyerurism, all of the big players out there betting thousands or even tens of thousands per day through their ADW's one would believe the scrutiny to be at a premium.
I just don't buy this.
First, there are no 'crooked wires'....In fact the cable that crosses over top of the track means nothing. It is there to give an idea of where the finish libne is located.
The ONLY thing that matters is the photo finish camera. IN in house production cameras, especially the one that pisses people off the most, the one at the finish means NOTHING in as far as the official placing of the horses. Nothing.
I remember the at the Meadowlands. These fruitcakes that would spit nails cursing and bitching about the photo finishes being a big lie because "the outside horse is always given the advantage".....Nonsense.
The camera at the line was located a few feet before the wire because that was where the construction of the building allowed it to be. Period.
They could have put that camera on Mars and it still would have no bearing on the photo finish....
It was comical. People would watch the replay on the tv monitor. They'd scream "See the fu*&^%$ 6 haus won it!!!!" And dose basteds up dair put da tree(3) in the mutha f&^C(&% win!!!!"
I would sometimes sidle up to these miscreants and egg them on by agreeing with them.....They holler "you saw it too, buddy?"...Yeah, they ripped us off, I'd say.....

[johnhannibalsmith]

I dont know if it would improve, but at least it would be more consistent.

How do you mean?

[thespaah]

I'm all for consistency. If a track wants to have an inquiry on every race and nit pick stuff to death, than at least you know what you're getting into if you bet their place. Just be consistent.
Well. In an NFL game the could call holding on every play....If they called the game to the absolute letter of the rule book, the stands would be empty.

[Stillriledup]

Well. In an NFL game the could call holding on every play....If they called the game to the absolute letter of the rule book, the stands would be empty.

This is exactly why i would suggest to pay the winners.

[Stillriledup]

How do you mean?

If you were betting races all over the country, you would kind of get to learn how the 'stewards stew' and what kind of stuff comes down and what kind of stuff stays up. The way it is now, its random as to what stays up and what comes down, you can get DQd one day and the next day, you NEED a DQ at a different track in a simliar situation and you don't get it, so the inconsistency costs you two decisions...but with the national board, you most likely would split.

[wiffleball whizz]

WOW...Just WOW...
Let me ask....To who's benefit?
What I find amusing is all this speculation and conspiracy theories put forth by suspicious and cynical individuals never ask the one most important question....
Who benefits?
IN this day of video voyerurism, all of the big players out there betting thousands or even tens of thousands per day through their ADW's one would believe the scrutiny to be at a premium.
I just don't buy this.
First, there are no 'crooked wires'....In fact the cable that crosses over top of the track means nothing. It is there to give an idea of where the finish libne is located.
The ONLY thing that matters is the photo finish camera. IN in house production cameras, especially the one that pisses people off the most, the one at the finish means NOTHING in as far as the official placing of the horses. Nothing.
I remember the at the Meadowlands. These fruitcakes that would spit nails cursing and bitching about the photo finishes being a big lie because "the outside horse is always given the advantage".....Nonsense.
The camera at the line was located a few feet before the wire because that was where the construction of the building allowed it to be. Period.
They could have put that camera on Mars and it still would have no bearing on the photo finish....
It was comical. People would watch the replay on the tv monitor. They'd scream "See the fu*&^%$ 6 haus won it!!!!" And dose basteds up dair put da tree(3) in the mutha f&^C(&% win!!!!"
I would sometimes sidle up to these miscreants and egg them on by agreeing with them.....They holler "you saw it too, buddy?"...Yeah, they ripped us off, I'd say.....

There was a night in like 2003 I'm at the meadowlands in the owners box right on the wire and hall of famer red bow tie was wrapping up his career.....the horse missed by a neck and they put him up......it was ruckus all ovrr the track

Go back next week they got the photo hung up all over the grounds......

It was evident they threw the old warrior a bone....maybe pandy remembers this race.....

[johnhannibalsmith]

If you were betting races all over the country, you would kind of get to learn how the 'stewards stew' and what kind of stuff comes down and what kind of stuff stays up. The way it is now, its random as to what stays up and what comes down, you can get DQd one day and the next day, you NEED a DQ at a different track in a simliar situation and you don't get it, so the inconsistency costs you two decisions...but with the national board, you most likely would split.

So they'd stop being inconsistent in their decisions at one track now (the subject of thread after thread) but they'd become consistent if they looked over more than one track/circuit?

[Stillriledup]

So they'd stop being inconsistent in their decisions at one track now (the subject of thread after thread) but they'd become consistent if they looked over more than one track/circuit?

Yes, they would be consistently mediocre. Consistent and good are two different things, but at least you would be able to feel that if you suffered a DQ one day at one track and the same exact situation happened at some other track, that the ruling would be "consistent" with yesterday's ruling. With bozo stewards all over the country, you never know what you're getting. If you have 3 bozos who make ALL the calls, at least their screwups would be consistent with each other.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Yes, they would be consistently mediocre. Consistent and good are two different things, but at least you would be able to feel that if you suffered a DQ one day at one track and the same exact situation happened at some other track, that the ruling would be "consistent" with yesterday's ruling. With bozo stewards all over the country, you never know what you're getting. If you have 3 bozos who make ALL the calls, at least their screwups would be consistent with each other.

Okay, well then I can assume that you're never in any threads complaining about how stewards at one track are inconsistent. Otherwise your train of logic fails to make any sense to me.

[Stillriledup]

Okay, well then I can assume that you're never in any threads complaining about how stewards at one track are inconsistent. Otherwise your train of logic fails to make any sense to me.

Stewards at one track can be inconsistent and not call the same as other tracks. A DQ at CT might be a 'leave up' at SA. My point was just that a DQ at SA will be the same as at DQ at CT.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Stewards at one track can be inconsistent and not call the same as other tracks. A DQ at CT might be a 'leave up' at SA. My point was just that a DQ at SA will be the same as at DQ at CT.

Dude. If the same people (pursuant to my first query) are in charge and they are inconsistent in applying the singular rules of a single jurisdiction as it is now, then where is this theory emerging that suddenly given the entirety of national racing to handle that they will become consistent because there is a different singular jurisdiction with a singular set of rules?

[thespaah]

This is exactly why i would suggest to pay the winners.
The thing is they are NOT the winners. The horse or rider in that instance was in violation of the rules. Just as a bettor can lose his wager when there is a rules infraction, in your perspective, you'd be punishing a bettor who's horse was cost a position by a competitor that broke the rules.
As a matter of fairness, the violator is placed lower in the order of finish and the fouled horses moved up ahead. The bets are paid off accordingly.
It is what it is. I see nothing wrong here.

[thespaah]

Just curious why you think the human element would suddenly improve just by centralizing things. Where will the central authorities come from? Some secondary pool of horse racing talent from which the current crop isn't cultivated?
The NHL has it's "war room" in Toronto. MLB has it's replay office in New York City.

[thespaah]

There was a night in like 2003 I'm at the meadowlands in the owners box right on the wire and hall of famer red bow tie was wrapping up his career.....the horse missed by a neck and they put him up......it was ruckus all ovrr the track

Go back next week they got the photo hung up all over the grounds......

It was evident they threw the old warrior a bone....maybe pandy remembers this race.....
What was wrong in the photo?

[wiffleball whizz]

What was wrong in the photo?

The horse missed by and neck and they declared him the winner....if I remember correctly the photo was like a wide stretched out version of the photo....

[johnhannibalsmith]

The NHL has it's "war room" in Toronto. MLB has it's replay office in New York City.

Okay.

[PaceAdvantage]

The horse missed by and neck and they declared him the winner....if I remember correctly the photo was like a wide stretched out version of the photo....Nice tale...I don't believe you...you're still a nice guy though...

[wiffleball whizz]

Nice tale...I don't believe you...you're still a nice guy though...

Let me do research......I'm gonna try and find the chart to this race and then somebody can pull up a replay.....

I have no reason to make this up......

I bet my life if you saw this replay you would fall off the chair

[cj's dad]

Because I'm a degenerate gambler who loves the action-----true story

I can vouch for that !!

[Rise Over Run]

There was a night in like 2003 I'm at the meadowlands in the owners box right on the wire and hall of famer red bow tie was wrapping up his career.....the horse missed by a neck and they put him up......it was ruckus all ovrr the track

Go back next week they got the photo hung up all over the grounds......

It was evident they threw the old warrior a bone....maybe pandy remembers this race.....

Not a day goes by that I don't learn something from browsing the Paceadvantage website. I had no idea that horses ate bones. :D