do you think its time to give up?

[bugboy]

well almost the end of the year. just looked at my r. o. I..........its 0.75....
yes I lost...again. but boy I still enjoy the game.. but all things being equal....I don't drink (well a little) don't smoke (at all).. i'm a small time better. mostly 2.00, once in a GREAT while a 20.00. Don.t bet every race. its MY enjoyment!!!!

O.K now I feel better. Thanks for listening :)

[OntheRail]

Well if you quit... you'll be depressed in short order. That will lead to drinking (more) which can cause you to start smoking. So for the sake of your health and sanity... keep stepping up to the window.


See you at the races ;)

[taxicab]

It sure sounds like you enjoy the track (wagering ).
Keep on playing.
As far as your ROI goes, perhaps try different "types" of wagers.
Multi-race bets can lead to big scores.
Woodbine offers .20 P-3/P-4.
Most other tracks offer .50 P-4's.
Good luck.

[jahura2]

In the words of Jimmy V.
"Don't give up....don't ever give up"
If you enjoy it and its not sending you to the poor house, there is no reason to stop, just keep trying to get better.

[jk3521]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-OoIvgtuzs :D :D

[johnhannibalsmith]

I haven't been to a movie since I started betting, I don't think.

If my ROI were .75 and betting in your range, I'd probably still be up on the expense of movies. And it has to be a really good movie to be better than a bad day at the races. ;)

[lamboguy]

its time for me, i just played the wrong Kathy O'Connel horse in the 7th at Tampa, the right one paid $34 for win :bang: :bang:

[Vigorish]

well almost the end of the year. just looked at my r. o. I..........its 0.75....
yes I lost...again. but boy I still enjoy the game.. but all things being equal....I don't drink (well a little) don't smoke (at all).. i'm a small time better. mostly 2.00, once in a GREAT while a 20.00. Don.t bet every race. its MY enjoyment!!!!

O.K now I feel better. Thanks for listening :)


The ultimate question is whether or not the enjoyment you extract from racing exceeds your costs (however you define them). For me, racing has several costs and rewards. I often perform assessments to decide whether or not I should participate in a given activity. In one column, I will write 'rewards,' and in another I will write 'costs.'

Currently, my rewards are as follows:
1) The mental challenge of handicapping races
2) The opportunity to win money, including BIG money from pick 4's.
3) The interesting people I connect with as a result of my involvement with this game
4) The thrill of watching majestic thoroughbreds, and knowing that I am invested in the outcome.
5) Slightly lowered cost to play the game through rebates and free PP's.
6) Easy access to the game through ADW's.
7) The annual trip to Keeneland, which includes horseback riding and seeing my favorite champions!
8) An occasional trip to Del Mar and their awesome online tournament

These rewards, and others, BARELY outweigh the many costs:

1) Takeouts ranging from 14-31% (not including breakage)
2) The constant threat of losing my online access and/or rebates and 'free' past performances. Who knows what the horsemen, track owners, and politicians will do next to make the game even more unpalatable?
3) Expenses beyond takeouts such as enhanced PP's, admission, overpriced food, software, paper, ink cartridges, taxes, etc.
4) The sense that people who run the game disrespect me and could probably care less about my patronage.
5) The sport's unwillingness to address issues relating to integrity such as meaningful penalties for cheaters, abuse of the cancel delay, antiquated tote, breakage (which is legalized larceny), and secret handshake deals with elite players (e.g. Elite Turf Club).
6) Feeling like the sport pays lip service to animal welfare.
7) The industry's refusal to conform to international standards on Lasix and other drugs.
8) The death of long-distance racing and an inordinate emphasis on speed and precocity (at least in N. America)
9) Refusal to offer exchange wagering
10) A philosophical objection to endless subsidies, which effectively become an entitlement instead of a unique opportunity to advertise, innovate, and experiment with different pricing models.

After considering all of these variables, I am currently leaning towards participation. However, I HIGHLY doubt it will be long-term participation given the realities of today's game. I have already mentally prepared myself for a quick transition away from the sport. As an advantage player, I show a long-term positive ROI for three different games. Unfortunately, horseracing is not one of them. Curiously enough, I can handle being a negative ROI player. What I cannot tolerate is knowing that I have, for all intense purposes, no realistic chance of becoming a long-term winning player.

We all come to this game with different expectations. Perhaps my expectations are unrealistically high. Today's horseplayer demands a lot more than what the sports administrators are willing to offer. We can play a game of 10x odds craps with a house advantage of less than 1%. Many video poker machines offer 99%+ payback. Slots often pay up to 97%. Blackjack, with a simple basic strategy, gives the house an advantage of less than two percent (and sometimes as low as one-tenth of one percent). Poker has a real takeout of less than 5%. You can find European craps tables with a $5 minimum that take about 1.5%. And many casinos give you back 40% of your expected loss!

So the question you have to ask yourself is whether or not the 25% vigorish is giving you enough value for your money. The first track I ever went to was Canterbury Downs (in 1988). My aunt and uncle were very thrifty and never bet more than two bucks on a race. They loved the atmosphere and felt the track offered excellent value. Of course, their motives were completely different than mine. In your case (like my relatives), it sounds like losing 50 cents per $2 wager is a winning proposition. In fact, racing might be a cost-efficient alternative to other hobbies or forms of gambling. It would be a mistake to undermine your own enjoyment just because you fail to meet some arbitrary performance standard.

[JustRalph]

You beat me by a penny for this year.

You spurred me to go look at the numbers via my adw. I was able to go back eleven years. I haven't had a positive RoI in five years. I had a positive ROI in 5 of 11 years. But that of course doesn't count winnings in person at the track. Or losses. Probably close to even, let's hope. I do remember a few nice tickets at the track but I also got slaughtered at Keeneland the first two years they had plastic. All while attending in person.

In examining the total package, two things stand out.

I haven't had a signer in three years. Those larger hits are practically non existent in the last five years.

I put 90% less cash through the windows this year than I did in 2002.

I also played primarily NYRA tracks except for big days.
In 2002 I had bets at 12 different tracks.

As Bugs would say, over the last five years, I'm getting murderized, compared to the first five years or so.

[thespaah]

well almost the end of the year. just looked at my r. o. I..........its 0.75....
yes I lost...again. but boy I still enjoy the game.. but all things being equal....I don't drink (well a little) don't smoke (at all).. i'm a small time better. mostly 2.00, once in a GREAT while a 20.00. Don.t bet every race. its MY enjoyment!!!!

O.K now I feel better. Thanks for listening :)
Don't quit...You just said "my enjoyment"...
That's enough.....If you stop enjoying the game, then maybe it's time to give it up.
Here's an idea...give up a leisure time activity that DOES NOT give you some enjoyment...
I bowled in leagues for many years. I just lost interest because it became too much like work. So I gave it up.

[Stillriledup]

Great post Vig (#8)


My comments on a few of your comments.

4) I agree with the idea that racetrack higher ups do not respect the players and they certainly don't believe that many of those players forgot more about the game than they'll ever know...they smirk at the notion that they might not be the "smartest guy in the room". There really hasnt been any vibe that i've received over the years that big shots respect any of the "lowly horseplayers" who trudge thru their track on a regular basis.

5) spot on with this one too, i don't know too much about secret handshake deals, but the cancel delay abuse is a joke and the antiquated tote is also ridiculous, we have had the BC scandal in 2002 and what have we heard that they have done to make sure that the tote systems are as secure as Fort Knox? Nothing and probably the reason is twofold. The first reason is that it would hurt them financially to not let tote scammers into the pools as they do receive their cut of the takeout, its in their best interest to have the largest pool possible while not caring who is winning or losing the money. Also, it cost money to make a great tote, why would they spend money so the pools can't be pilfered by people siphoning small amounts of money out of the pools by adding 10 cents to this particular super combo and 50 cents to that particular trifecta after the race has been run.

Also, the breakage is larceny, they instituted this breakage back in the day so people wouldnt hold up betting lines cashing for odd pennies and nickels. So what happens when we get to 2013 and people have ADWs who dont need tellers? They still take that money. The stock market doesnt "round off" stock prices, they are paid out to the penny, why racing isnt forced to pay out the breakage is anyone's guess. Also, now they have 10 cent bets and you can theoretically have either a SAM voucher or a winning super ticket that pays off to the penny.....nothing stopping Joey Degenerate from cashing his 7.81 super with 1 minute to post for the feature race yet, they still won't give the bettors their rightful money, they just steal it and everyone looks the other way.

[riskman]

If your losses are not affecting your lifestyle just carry on and enjoy yourself.
Some people spend $2000 or $3000 a year on lottery tickets and never see a dime in ten or twenty years.
At least on horse racing you are competing against the other players and at the same time learning a skill that may someday be profitable. Keep on betting and learning.

[PhantomOnTour]

When things look hopeless, when it appears all is lost, when you simply cannot take any more...never give up.
That is precisely when the tide will begin to turn

[thaskalos]

If you can find enjoyment in the game while making $2 bets...then you are in a no-lose situation. You will have your fun, and it will cost you the minimum...which is more than the vast majority of the rest of the horseplayers can say.

But if you ever get bored with the $2 bets and get the urge to bet higher...then I hope that you'll have the good sense to work on your game a little bit. "Fun" can get pretty expensive when you lose 25 cents on the dollar while making larger bets.

[mkkash]

well almost the end of the year. just looked at my r. o. I..........its 0.75....
yes I lost...again. but boy I still enjoy the game.. but all things being equal....I don't drink (well a little) don't smoke (at all).. i'm a small time better. mostly 2.00, once in a GREAT while a 20.00. Don.t bet every race. its MY enjoyment!!!!

O.K now I feel better. Thanks for listening :)

Bugboy if you quit you will never be the winner that your heart desires to be.

It took me 7 years to get to the track 2 blocks from my house. I bet $20
on the dd at early bird came back after lunch and bet a few more dollars
on the 5th race and sat down too enjoy the races.

I saw a big gray horse win the second race named ZAC K.

Then they announced the pay out for the DD I had a winning ticket.
$100 -$20=$80 profit not bad for the first bet.

Now we go to the fifth race I had bet 1-3-5-7 to win , place and show
At the same teller I bet them again to win and show and the teller said
"NOW I HAVE SEEN EVERYTHING"

Out of my selections I had the winner 2xw1p and 2 show
I had the 2 horse to place once and to show x 2.
And the show horse to show 2 times.

My total cost was $40 for the 5th race. A longshot won and
I took $260 in winnings a profit of $300 for the afternoon.

I don't play everyday because I am not a gambler.

I consider ALL OF US to be investors in the SPORT OF KINGS.

More to come...

Thanks to all that posted and encouraging Bugboy to stay in
the game.

M K KASH

"Make A Pocket Full Of Play Dough"

[Sunday Silence]

The ultimate question is whether or not the enjoyment you extract from racing exceeds your costs (however you define them). For me, racing has several costs and rewards. I often perform assessments to decide whether or not I should participate in a given activity. In one column, I will write 'rewards,' and in another I will write 'costs.'

Currently, my rewards are as follows:
1) The mental challenge of handicapping races
2) The opportunity to win money, including BIG money from pick 4's.
3) The interesting people I connect with as a result of my involvement with this game
4) The thrill of watching majestic thoroughbreds, and knowing that I am invested in the outcome.
5) Slightly lowered cost to play the game through rebates and free PP's.
6) Easy access to the game through ADW's.
7) The annual trip to Keeneland, which includes horseback riding and seeing my favorite champions!
8) An occasional trip to Del Mar and their awesome online tournament

These rewards, and others, BARELY outweigh the many costs:

1) Takeouts ranging from 14-31% (not including breakage)
2) The constant threat of losing my online access and/or rebates and 'free' past performances. Who knows what the horsemen, track owners, and politicians will do next to make the game even more unpalatable?
3) Expenses beyond takeouts such as enhanced PP's, admission, overpriced food, software, paper, ink cartridges, taxes, etc.
4) The sense that people who run the game disrespect me and could probably care less about my patronage.
5) The sport's unwillingness to address issues relating to integrity such as meaningful penalties for cheaters, abuse of the cancel delay, antiquated tote, breakage (which is legalized larceny), and secret handshake deals with elite players (e.g. Elite Turf Club).
6) Feeling like the sport pays lip service to animal welfare.
7) The industry's refusal to conform to international standards on Lasix and other drugs.
8) The death of long-distance racing and an inordinate emphasis on speed and precocity (at least in N. America)
9) Refusal to offer exchange wagering
10) A philosophical objection to endless subsidies, which effectively become an entitlement instead of a unique opportunity to advertise, innovate, and experiment with different pricing models.

After considering all of these variables, I am currently leaning towards participation. However, I HIGHLY doubt it will be long-term participation given the realities of today's game. I have already mentally prepared myself for a quick transition away from the sport. As an advantage player, I show a long-term positive ROI for three different games. Unfortunately, horseracing is not one of them. Curiously enough, I can handle being a negative ROI player. What I cannot tolerate is knowing that I have, for all intense purposes, no realistic chance of becoming a long-term winning player.

We all come to this game with different expectations. Perhaps my expectations are unrealistically high. Today's horseplayer demands a lot more than what the sports administrators are willing to offer. We can play a game of 10x odds craps with a house advantage of less than 1%. Many video poker machines offer 99%+ payback. Slots often pay up to 97%. Blackjack, with a simple basic strategy, gives the house an advantage of less than two percent (and sometimes as low as one-tenth of one percent). Poker has a real takeout of less than 5%. You can find European craps tables with a $5 minimum that take about 1.5%. And many casinos give you back 40% of your expected loss!

So the question you have to ask yourself is whether or not the 25% vigorish is giving you enough value for your money. The first track I ever went to was Canterbury Downs (in 1988). My aunt and uncle were very thrifty and never bet more than two bucks on a race. They loved the atmosphere and felt the track offered excellent value. Of course, their motives were completely different than mine. In your case (like my relatives), it sounds like losing 50 cents per $2 wager is a winning proposition. In fact, racing might be a cost-efficient alternative to other hobbies or forms of gambling. It would be a mistake to undermine your own enjoyment just because you fail to meet some arbitrary performance standard.

What a terrific post. May be the best I've ever seen on the pros/cons of participating in the sport..Agree on every point.

[bugboy]

Thanks guys, ya gave me the courage to learn this game more. I ain't gonna quit

[RaceBookJoe]

well almost the end of the year. just looked at my r. o. I..........its 0.75....
yes I lost...again. but boy I still enjoy the game.. but all things being equal....I don't drink (well a little) don't smoke (at all).. i'm a small time better. mostly 2.00, once in a GREAT while a 20.00. Don.t bet every race. its MY enjoyment!!!!

O.K now I feel better. Thanks for listening :)

If its your enjoyment and it doesn't affect you overly negatively then keep it as enjoyment, otherwise I could say I lost $20 at the movies the other day even though I enjoyed the movie :) Best wishes for 2014 !!!

[SandyLoam]

Here in Chicago, we have one of the most beautiful racing facilities in the world, but the actions and philosophies of the corporation that owns and runs it are despicable and demand a boycott, which I do, in both personal attendance and wagering remotely on its races. Churchill Downs Inc. executives have actually stated that racing is not its top priority, as it lets Calder rot now that it has slots there. CDI is hellbent on getting slots in Illinois and, along the way, has made one of its top priorities the annihilation of Hawthorne Race Course, telling Illinois racing authorities that it knows Hawthorne's business methods more than Hawthorne does, and also has the audacity to tell the IRB that Hawthorne's "numbers just don't add up."

Arlington Park suits will tell you its racing product is "world class" when clearly it's a chalk fest on a rotting, burning blackened artificial surface installed more for public relations to end the breakdowns than anything. The old dirt track had a dip in it on the last turn, for glory's sake! Maintaining that dirt track was not a priority and its inattention might even have been a calculated risk. Even its vaunted turf festival is losing its ability to attract the top horses. It's expensive to enter the doors and the food is horrible, a real nickel-and-dime place. They don't even care to coordinate post times with the commuter train that stops at its door. The same tracks that delivered Secretariat to its threshold. Its primary marketing strategy is not the racing, but the attraction of families and others who do not in any way understand the camaraderie and etiquette of horseplaying and instead "colonize" the cheap seats and create obstacle courses of baby strollers. The one OTB in the city is a TwinSpires outpost crammed into a small concrete-block bunker off to the side of a large bar. Complete with surly employees, standard.

After failing to reauthorize ADW wagering for the first four months of 2013, the Illinois Racing Board decided to levy a "temporary" off-the-top tax on all winning bets to allow those involved to recoup their "losses." With accounting and regulatory reporting to the IRB on the collection of these taxes by all organizations required. Except for one: TwinSpires. We citizens of the Prairie State know how things are done around here; draw your own conclusions.

CDI is also responsible for what it has transformed into one of the most ridiculous horse races in the world, the Kentucky Derby, the stampede sponsored by Yum! Brands, of course. Ugly stories of how long-time ticket holders are being flung to the wayside, corporate greed tents obscuring the view of the race for viewers at home(!), and a race much more concerned with generating revenues than respecting the dwindling, but real, traditions of a once-great race. It all comes together on Derby Day. Hawthorne's racing is not great, but it's real and it knows as much.

It is because of these issues and many more in the game itself (how 'bout that tampering with the Santa Anita track during BC weekend? As Bob Hope would say) that I have severely curtailed my horseplaying, limited to the premier meets and the biggest days. Through my field glasses here in Chicago, Arlington Park has eminently earned my boycott; which is a shame, based on the beauty of the place.

I have found it impossible to continue my previous level of patronage and reconcile the ball-peen hammer to the head that represents the way fans are treated and the way the game conducts itself.

It's depressing.

[pondman]

Here in Chicago, we have one of the most beautiful racing facilities in the world, but the actions and philosophies of the corporation that owns and runs it are despicable and demand a boycott, which I do, in both personal attendance and wagering remotely on its races.

Sandy

Hate to say it--but-- reading the minutes from the Illinois Racing Commission brings my wife and myself hours of entertainment. Illinois has to have some of the most interesting fines and suspensions of all State.

Drugs, drunk trainers showing up to races, people stealing drugs, people trying to drug other people's horses. It must get fairly wild in the barn areas.