Furmoside

[rosenowsr]

Interesting reading:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/sports/study-raises-questions-about-antibleeding-drug.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

[cj]

Should be interesting hearing from the horsemen on this one. You know, they tell us almost all horses bleed without Lasix. Seems like most of them bleed with it too I guess.

[chadk66]

you have to be kidding me. doing a lasix test on 55 horses and they're two year olds to boot. then coming up with a that result? :D :D :D What a bunch of azz hats.

[taxicab]

Should be interesting hearing from the horsemen on this one. You know, they tell us almost all horses bleed without Lasix. Seems like most of them bleed with it too I guess.




Maybe only horses in North America bleed without Lasix. :eek:

[cj]

you have to be kidding me. doing a lasix test on 55 horses and they're two year olds to boot. then coming up with a that result? :D :D :D What a bunch of azz hats.

What result? They just gave the facts of what was found, nothing more.

[chadk66]

and their study group was pretty laughable. so we've come to the point that science is willing to use a minute study group to conclude a result. :D we must live in some desperate times

[cj]

and their study group was pretty laughable. so we've come to the point that science is willing to use a minute study group to conclude a result. :D we must live in some desperate times

Nobody concluded a result...except apparently you.

[chadk66]

they insinuated horses on lasix bleed more often than horses without it.

[cj]

they insinuated horses on lasix bleed more often than horses without it.

They didn't insinuate anything. They gave numbers of how many horses bled without Lasix, and how many bled with Lasix.

It is certainly worthy of more study. Trainers (like yourself) were in love with Lasix from the beginning. It was going to be the wonder drug that allowed horses that couldn't normally run to race, and race more often. We were promised bigger fields, horses racing more often, etc. Then, it became "preventative" apparently. We now give it to almost 95% of the horses that race in this country "just in case".

How has that worked out? Why should we believe one word trainers say about Lasix now?

[Saratoga_Mike]

and their study group was pretty laughable. so we've come to the point that science is willing to use a minute study group to conclude a result. :D we must live in some desperate times

The study wasn't minute. There are many studies in humans with fewer subjects that are presented in leading medical journals.

[therussmeister]

The bottom line is this; nothing is ever settled with one study, even if the study involved much more data. It's a good start, but more needs to be done.

[Tom]

I'll one fact from a study over 1,000 hear say ideas on the subject.
Put up or shut up - do a study that supports your side.

[Grits]

The study wasn't minute. There are many studies in humans with fewer subjects that are presented in leading medical journals.

S.Mike, you're right. But, the use and the protocol is quite different. So I'm not sure relating the studies of the two are beneficial when discussing its administration to horses. Lasix when prescribed for humans (like my son), is for the treatment of congestive heart failure--to remove fluid from around the heart as the fluid build up causes one's heart to weaken, therefore, the patient can literally drown in this way. The heart can't keep up, cardiac arrest can occur. When working successfully for the patient, its followed with potassium supplement. Too, its used for patients with renal disease.

What has always been interesting to me as far as the "connection" between human and horse? The fact that the World Anti-Doping Agency banned it years and years ago after so much controversy regarding the masking of other agents in athletes.

Be assured, though, as we've been told, "it don't mask nothin' in horses, it just keeps 'em from bleedin'. In case they do bleed, that is."

[cj]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/82473/digging-deeper-into-bc-lasix-study

[outofthebox]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/82473/digging-deeper-into-bc-lasix-studyVery interesting reading those results. I'm very surprised with their findings..On a personal note i have run 107 horses this year and have scoped all of them after the race. I have had two different horses bleed (one of them twice) for a total of three. All were on the moderate side on a scale of 2-5. They all ran on lasix.

[Grits]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQw_bB9aO-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thwZwUgn0ek

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf4Z9VbCr0c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_K-j-ybKM

With this problem, this sport will never get any better. And no one--at least not anyone in their right mind--would decide, "yes, I'm going to apply myself and learn the business of handicapping horse races, this will be an income earner for me".

One's Ipad, state of the art home tech set up and the best past performances money can buy, including BRIS, TFUS, and DRF FORMULATOR will not make a new fan, nor will either make a seasoned handicapper's ROI better. None of this will make a difference until all realize, as Rick Arthur notes, the amount of drugs that are being given to racehorses on a daily basis. Wayne Lukas, having trained for over 50 years, notes, "we've lost a bit of horsemanship". But of all four videos, Seth Hancock's may be the most telling--a past era spent with Woody Stephens and a lead in to CBS' Evening News with Scott Pelley's segment on the Belmont Stakes.

Everyone's looking for income betting sports... Gambling on the outcomes. Yet, one can't compare this sport to any other. Its always been about a horse. Somewhere, along the way, we lost sight of this fact.

I'm not a tree hugger, I'm not an activist...I'm not even great at recycling...but I am intelligent enough to know, not anything, man or beast, should be loaded up to compete in a sporting event for my benefit. And this sport will remain on its ventilator, and at some point, die, if something is not done about it. What's become common everyday practice in thoroughbred racing is an American tragedy.

[cj]

I'm sure horsemen will hate the first video (haven't watched the rest yet). I think there is a lot of truth in there.

One thing I've said for a while...horses can't be as competitive without Lasix if all the other horses have it. The other I've thought, but have never said or written or heard others say. Today's trainers don't know how to train without Laisx.

[Saratoga_Mike]

S.Mike, you're right. But, the use and the protocol is quite different. So I'm not sure relating the studies of the two are beneficial when discussing its administration to horses. Lasix when prescribed for humans (like my son), is for the treatment of congestive heart failure--to remove fluid from around the heart as the fluid build up causes one's heart to weaken, therefore, the patient can literally drown in this way. The heart can't keep up, cardiac arrest can occur. When working successfully for the patient, its followed with potassium supplement. Too, its used for patients with renal disease.

What has always been interesting to me as far as the "connection" between human and horse? The fact that the World Anti-Doping Agency banned it years and years ago after so much controversy regarding the masking of other agents in athletes.

Be assured, though, as we've been told, "it don't mask nothin' in horses, it just keeps 'em from bleedin'. In case they do bleed, that is."

All very good points - just saying statistically speaking the sample size was not "minute," as Chad suggested.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm sure horsemen will hate the first video (haven't watched the rest yet). I think there is a lot of truth in there.

One thing I've said for a while...horses can't be as competitive without Lasix if all the other horses have it. The other I've thought, but have never said or written or heard others say. Today's trainers don't know how to train without Laisx.

What does this mean?

[cj]

What does this mean?

That most of today's trainers were not around in the pre-Lasix days, so they really don't know how to train horses without it. The video says it better than I can.

Just watched Lukas, which is also very good.

[mountainman]

That most of today's trainers were not around in the pre-Lasix days, so they really don't know how to train horses without it.

Absolutely. There was a time when skilled trainers combated bleeding with a wide variety of inspired measures ranging from scientific to mystical. I suspect that knowledge has eroded in a sea of furosemide employed largely as a masking agent for other substances.