question regarding scratches

[tonypp]

Why don't owners scratch there horses when they draw the 7 or 8 post on halfmile tracks like Maywood.

[wiffleball whizz]

Why don't owners scratch there horses when they draw the 7 or 8 post on halfmile tracks like Maywood.

Some tracks if you do u can't enter for 3 weeks......good rule

Pandy can explain this better then me

[tonypp]

ty

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, Whiz is right, you get punished if you scratch from the 8 hole. Another factor is this. Since harness horses are very durable and can race 40 times per year or more, its better to "Race easy" from post 8, go to the back of the pack, get a nice training mile under his belt and most importantly, get money off his card. Many races are seeded by money earned, so if a horse finishes 6th or worse, he makes 0 dollars and his line 5 or 6 back will "come off the card" and that horse could possibly be in line for a class drop.

Always check the conditions and see if a horse has made x amount of dollars in his last 5 starts, see how much money that horse won in his "5th start back" and if that horse draws the 8 hole, he's probably in for a free ride because he can get money off the card and get to drop in class the following week.

A lot of horses are class sensitive, some drop down a level and they become tigers, that's something you need to use in your handicapping, knowing when a horse gets money off the card.

[wiffleball whizz]

Yeah, Whiz is right, you get punished if you scratch from the 8 hole. Another factor is this. Since harness horses are very durable and can race 40 times per year or more, its better to "Race easy" from post 8, go to the back of the pack, get a nice training mile under his belt and most importantly, get money off his card. Many races are seeded by money earned, so if a horse finishes 6th or worse, he makes 0 dollars and his line 5 or 6 back will "come off the card" and that horse could possibly be in line for a class drop.

Always check the conditions and see if a horse has made x amount of dollars in his last 5 starts, see how much money that horse won in his "5th start back" and if that horse draws the 8 hole, he's probably in for a free ride because he can get money off the card and get to drop in class the following week.

A lot of horses are class sensitive, some drop down a level and they become tigers, that's something you need to use in your handicapping, knowing when a horse gets money off the card.


Wow SRU knows a ton about harness racing

This is exactly what I thought of while reading this (Wayne's response)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7DivHqBN89g&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D7DivHqBN89g

[jennywilsonhrs]

Although it may seem like a disadvantage to draw post 7 or 8 on a ½ mile course, some horses actually excel on the outside of the pack. I do also agree with the comments that there are penalties for scratching so it is better to stay in the race. A lot of insight was given by Stillriledup which is absolutely useful so thanks a ton!

[mrroyboy]

Yes very good answers. Part of handicapping is figuring out conditioning type races and all out effort races

[thespaah]

The rules of Standardbred racing differ from the runners.
A horse may be scratched but there has to be a legitimate reason.
Sick, lame and judges.
The first two are authorized by the track Vet.
The latter may be because the horse is late to the paddock, has paperwork issues or some other issue in which the rules of racing dictate a scratch.
One thing Harness racing rules have over Thoroughbred racing is the former have rules that are geared toward protecting field integrity.
There are penalties that can be meted out should the Judges determine a scratch was not legitimate.

[thespaah]

Yes very good answers. Part of handicapping is figuring out conditioning type races and all out effort races
Yes. There is the specter of the "tightener"..
To combat this, most tracks have rules in place that mandate a horse with no parimutuel starts in a given amount of time, must go in a qualifying race. This also applies to shippers on long layoffs and shippers coming in from 'lesser' tracks.
But the 'tightener' still does occur.

[thespaah]

Yeah, Whiz is right, you get punished if you scratch from the 8 hole. Another factor is this. Since harness horses are very durable and can race 40 times per year or more, its better to "Race easy" from post 8, go to the back of the pack, get a nice training mile under his belt and most importantly, get money off his card. Many races are seeded by money earned, so if a horse finishes 6th or worse, he makes 0 dollars and his line 5 or 6 back will "come off the card" and that horse could possibly be in line for a class drop.

Always check the conditions and see if a horse has made x amount of dollars in his last 5 starts, see how much money that horse won in his "5th start back" and if that horse draws the 8 hole, he's probably in for a free ride because he can get money off the card and get to drop in class the following week.

A lot of horses are class sensitive, some drop down a level and they become tigers, that's something you need to use in your handicapping, knowing when a horse gets money off the card.
That is some pretty astute observations....In all the years I was a regular at Meadowlands I never even gave that much thought to going back that far down the PP lines.
I was strictly a trip handicapper.

[Stillriledup]

That is some pretty astute observations....In all the years I was a regular at Meadowlands I never even gave that much thought to going back that far down the PP lines.
I was strictly a trip handicapper.

Thanks Spaah.

The thing about harness racing trainers and drivers, they are VERY astute in knowing what classes their horses fit, when those horses are due to have money off the card and things like that. I think the top harness drivers know the contending stock at their track much more intimately than thoroughbred jocks do for obvious reasons, a good thing as a harness handicapper is to really think like a horsemen, some horses are extremely class sensitive and sometimes a secretary will "open up a class" and tweak the conditions to let a certain horse enter the race. If a driver/trainer feel their horse is "outclassed" there's a great chance they'll race conservative, they won't leave the gate because they know if their class sensitive horse gets parked or roughed up and stops in the stretch, that's not what they want to see.

Now, i'm not saying to toss out all sharp horses who are rising in class, but its important to know your horse, know your classes and know which horses might be raced aggressively on the rise and which horses are essentially "Racing easy" because their connections feel they're in too tough.

Its great to go back 5 and even 10 lines just to see how a horse was raced when he rose in class and how he was raced when he dropped. Its completely different from the runners, in the thoroughbreds, almost all horses are really "in to win" they're not going to be "Racing easy" because very few runners can pile up 30 or 40 starts on the year, they have to make every start count....harness racing is completely different in that regard.

[Sea Biscuit]

Always check the conditions and see if a horse has made x amount of dollars in his last 5 starts, see how much money that horse won in his "5th start back" and if that horse draws the 8 hole, he's probably in for a free ride because he can get money off the card and get to drop in class the following week.



Its a two edge sword at best. I did just that with a horse who was moving up in class who led all the way in his last outing and just got nipped at the wire. His 5th race back was a 2nd and I figured that if he doesn't earn any money today he could get back in the lower class and should be easy winner off that strong last PP line.

He led all way in the higher class and paid $25.00.:eek:

I don't know about Yonkers but at Woodbine they pay you $300 to horses finishing 6th or worse in the race. They call it starter bonus and it also helps in ensuring full fields.

[Stillriledup]

Its a two edge sword at best. I did just that with a horse who was moving up in class who led all the way in his last outing and just got nipped at the wire. His 5th race back was a 2nd and I figured that if he doesn't earn any money today he could get back in the lower class and should be easy winner off that strong last PP line.

He led all way in the higher class and paid $25.00.:eek:

I don't know about Yonkers but at Woodbine they pay you $300 to horses finishing 6th or worse in the race. They call it starter bonus and it also helps in ensuring full fields.

Well, obviously there's much more to it than digging 5 back and making bets strictly on that alone. But, its a good thing to know, it can never hurt knowing which horses get a large amount of money off the card with an OTB finish, too bad this one didnt work out for you.

Sorry Biscuit.

[Just a Fan]

The rules of Standardbred racing differ from the runners.
A horse may be scratched but there has to be a legitimate reason.
Sick, lame and judges.
The first two are authorized by the track Vet.
The latter may be because the horse is late to the paddock, has paperwork issues or some other issue in which the rules of racing dictate a scratch.
One thing Harness racing rules have over Thoroughbred racing is the former have rules that are geared toward protecting field integrity.
There are penalties that can be meted out should the Judges determine a scratch was not legitimate.

I'm asking - I don't know the answer to this. You say the track vet has to authorize a sick/lame scratch. I always assumed a private vet could approve a scratch... a lot of horses are based off track, I would assume a private vet would approve those scratches, right? Or at least send in a recommendation for a SCR that pretty much gets rubber stamped? Its not like they would ship a sick/lame horse to the track just to get the track vet's approval for the scratch. And since the private vets get their paychecks from the trainers, I would assume its not that hard to get a vet scratch when you want one.

Relevant link

http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=40775&zoneid=63

[Sea Biscuit]

Well, obviously there's much more to it than digging 5 back and making bets strictly on that alone. But, its a good thing to know, it can never hurt knowing which horses get a large amount of money off the card with an OTB finish, too bad this one didnt work out for you.

Sorry Biscuit.

You are absolutely correct Stillrileup. It definitely pays to keep your eyes open and watch the money earnings on horses in conditioned classes.

There was a time when WEG programs didn't have moneys won by a horse in last 5 and last 10 and you had to do the math manually on a calculator. I used to pester them with weekly emails requesting this info be put in the program. Don't know if my emails had anything to do with it but now the info is given right there in the program which makes it easier for us old timers.

Keep up the good work. Love reading your posts.:ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

I'm asking - I don't know the answer to this. You say the track vet has to authorize a sick/lame scratch. I always assumed a private vet could approve a scratch... a lot of horses are based off track, I would assume a private vet would approve those scratches, right? Or at least send in a recommendation for a SCR that pretty much gets rubber stamped? Its not like they would ship a sick/lame horse to the track just to get the track vet's approval for the scratch. And since the private vets get their paychecks from the trainers, I would assume its not that hard to get a vet scratch when you want one.

Relevant link

http://xwebapp.ustrotting.com/absolutenm/templates/article.aspx?articleid=40775&zoneid=63
When I was in the business, I took the trainer's lecense test. There were a bunch of rules questions on it. As I recall, the track vet was consulted before a scratch "sick" or "lame"...
Of course that was back in the early 80's. Rules may have been amended.
The bottom line is in harness racing, the reason for a scratch has to be pretty solid.
It is my wish that it was as stringent with the runners.
It seems a trainer can scratch of the horse farts too loudly.

[Stillriledup]

You are absolutely correct Stillrileup. It definitely pays to keep your eyes open and watch the money earnings on horses in conditioned classes.

There was a time when WEG programs didn't have moneys won by a horse in last 5 and last 10 and you had to do the math manually on a calculator. I used to pester them with weekly emails requesting this info be put in the program. Don't know if my emails had anything to do with it but now the info is given right there in the program which makes it easier for us old timers.

Keep up the good work. Love reading your posts.:ThmbUp:

Thanks, appreciate those comments, they mean a lot to me.

:ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Here's another "angle" you guys might want to keep in mind, its a December angle.

Its important in claiming races to notice "claiming allowance" on horses. Sometimes a claiming race might be 15k, but mares or fillies or horses of 4 years old or under get some kind of bump in their own price, maybe 25%. So, if the claiming price is 15,000, a 4 year old might be in for 18,000. AND, here's the kicker....the 4 year old loses that allowance in a week or two when that horse gets 1 year older. So, the point being that some trainers might want to put those horses in a little bit lower class because they know that people don't want to pay a 3k 'allowance' that they'll lose at the end of the month.

Again, its not an end all-be all, but if you see a horse suddenly entering a claimer in December for the first time, the connections might be "taking a shot" by putting that horse in a race knowing they have the allowance as a buffer in case they are claimed. Most claiming trainers know this and are very reluctant to claim a horse who loses his or her allowance on Jan 1st.

So, look at the base claiming price of the race and see which horses are in for a higher price and then backtrack and see the pattern of when that horse got finally dropped in for the tag. "Thinking like a horseman" can really help your handicapping...but, you know, its just an angle, not the key to riches.

[grant miller]

my best handycapping is thinking like a horseman ! I try to focus on 1 circit (batavia & buffalo) now that there dark till jan I just mess whith action bets. good stuff SRU:) :ThmbUp: