Aqueduct Inner

[Bennie]

Couldn't find the old posts about the opening, but noticed today on the live feed that the Inner opens Wednesday the 11th

[dilanesp]

Couldn't find the old posts about the opening, but noticed today on the live feed that the Inner opens Wednesday the 11th

Most anticipated day in the American racing season, isn't it?

[cj]

Most anticipated day in the American racing season, isn't it?

It is for me, I love it.

[the little guy]

It is for me, I love it.

So do most horseplayers ( as evidenced by the handle...which we know, according to that poster, is meaningless ).

[Robert Goren]

It is for me, I love it.me too

[dilanesp]

So do most horseplayers ( as evidenced by the handle...which we know, according to that poster, is meaningless ).

I never said that handle is meaningless. I said exactly 2 things about handle: (1) that handle does not tell you the success vel non of a racetrack, and (2) that defenders of incompetent racetrack managers often point to handle to distract from their complete inability to get anyone to attend the races (and NYRA is particularly guilty of that).

The reasons (1) is true is that the racetrack only sees a tiny fraction of the betting handle anyway, and you would need Hong Kong-level betting handles before handle alone could make a racetrack a meaningful profit, and also because handle is subject to inflation just like anything else and would go up anyway even the absence of racetrack success.

But that doesn't mean handle is meaningless. All other things being equal, you want people to bet on your races. Handle can indicate which tracks are more popular with bettors. It can indicate whether particular innovations in betting are worth maintaining. It can show what sorts of races people like to bet on.

My problem is with one specific argument-- "look at how great the management of this track is, handle is up X percent". As long as people aren't using handle to prove that racetracks are being well run or making profits, I have no problem with people looking at handle figures.

[therussmeister]

also because handle is subject to inflation just like anything else and would go up anyway even the absence of racetrack success.

Handle is not subject to inflation, because minimum bets don't increase. In fact during my era of betting, minimum bets have decreased. Handle would be hurt by inflation if bettors wage increases don't keep up with inflation, then they would have less to bet with.

[Johnny V]

It is for me, I love it.
Ditto that. I have always liked the AQU inner meet and my results there have usually been better than most other tracks I routinely play.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I never said that handle is meaningless. I said exactly 2 things about handle: (1) that handle does not tell you the success vel non of a racetrack, and (2) that defenders of incompetent racetrack managers often point to handle to distract from their complete inability to get anyone to attend the races (and NYRA is particularly guilty of that).

The reasons (1) is true is that the racetrack only sees a tiny fraction of the betting handle anyway, and you would need Hong Kong-level betting handles before handle alone could make a racetrack a meaningful profit, and also because handle is subject to inflation just like anything else and would go up anyway even the absence of racetrack success.

But that doesn't mean handle is meaningless. All other things being equal, you want people to bet on your races. Handle can indicate which tracks are more popular with bettors. It can indicate whether particular innovations in betting are worth maintaining. It can show what sorts of races people like to bet on.

My problem is with one specific argument-- "look at how great the management of this track is, handle is up X percent". As long as people aren't using handle to prove that racetracks are being well run or making profits, I have no problem with people looking at handle figures.

Counselor,

Could you please outline a plan for NYRA to increase on-track attendance at AQU and BEL?

[PaceAdvantage]

Counselor,

Could you please outline a plan for NYRA to increase on-track attendance at AQU and BEL?Number one on the agenda should be to take a page out of the Fair Grounds playbook....OSTRICH RACES!

[Saratoga_Mike]

Number one on the agenda should be to take a page out of the Fair Grounds playbook....OSTRICH RACES!

Hah, the Meadowlands (during the harness meet) has tried that, too.

[the little guy]

Counselor,

Could you please outline a plan for NYRA to increase on-track attendance at AQU and BEL?


You mean everyone doesn't already have that guy on ignore?

[Stillriledup]

Number one on the agenda should be to take a page out of the Fair Grounds playbook....OSTRICH RACES!

Or the Weiner Nationals at Los AL! :D

[Saratoga_Mike]

You mean everyone doesn't already have that guy on ignore?

He's about to tell you nimrods how to attract tens of thousands of customers to AQU and BEL on a daily basis, just like other US tracks. Stay tuned.

[dilanesp]

Counselor,

Could you please outline a plan for NYRA to increase on-track attendance at AQU and BEL?

At this point, I suspect it is quite shot. The bad decisions were made back in the '70's (and remember, NYRA lost its attendance over a decade before California tracks did).

But long term, I'd say the following might help:

1. Not racing in the winter. Consider Gulfstream to be part of the New York circuit.
2. Closing one of the two tracks and consolidating operations at the other.
3. Renovate the track that remains open along the lines of what Stronach did at Santa Anita.
4. Get the races off TVG and onto network television whenever possible.
5. Do a full court press to cultivate reporters, sports talk hosts, bloggers, local sportscasters, etc, so that when a big race or a good horse comes along, you get some promotion (this is why the Santa Anita Derby still draws 35,000 plus).

NYRA has an amazingly good racing product. And it should be easier to draw in NYC than anywhere else- you get a couple of percentage points of the population interested and that's all you need. Unfortunately, there is decades of damage from NYRA negligence to overcome.

[dilanesp]

He's about to tell you nimrods how to attract tens of thousands of customers to AQU and BEL on a daily basis, just like other US tracks. Stay tuned.

Again, NYRA tracks were already empty BEFORE other tracks emptied out, despite having the largest metropolitan area to draw fans from. So NYRA's problems were caused by their own mistakes.

[Tom]

When you have the largest handle, what exactly is the problem?

[the little guy]

When you have the largest handle, what exactly is the problem?

Gulfstream ran 10 on Friday, in good weather, and handled $4.5 million. We ran 9 at Aqueduct, in the rain, and handled $4.8 million.

But we should close in the Winter.

Makes sense.

Ya know, now that I think about it, maybe he should be a track executive.

[PaceAdvantage]

1. Not racing in the winter.Even before I read TLG's comment, I was thinking to myself, WHY?

Why would you want to get rid of racing in the winter? Is Aqueduct too popular a signal for you? Is that why you would want to eliminate it? :bang:

[affirmedny]

Again, NYRA tracks were already empty BEFORE other tracks emptied out, despite having the largest metropolitan area to draw fans from. So NYRA's problems were caused by their own mistakes.

New York had OTB BEFORE anybody else. And a LOT of them.

[Robert Goren]

When you have the largest handle, what exactly is the problem?I don't if there is one, but if there isn't why are they taking slot money? Handle is like sales to a normal company. Neither is to be confused profit. Companies that confuse sales with profit aren't around long. Tracks that confuse handle with profit go begging to the state for slot money. Tracks asking for slot money are screaming that they are having problems. I know I am going to catch it for that view. I am amazed by the number of posters who think slot money is a bad thing for every place but New York.

[the little guy]

Elvis has left the building.

[the little guy]

Aqueduct handled $5.835 million today on 9 races. Gulfstream handled 5.318 on 10 races.

Yeah, we need to shut down.

[Tom]

"Here you go, your $10 million from the slots, which you are entitled to by law."

"No thanks, it wouldn't look good if we took money that is rightfully ours."






:faint:

[JimG]

NY area nor SoCal tracks should close for extended periods. Both have the local population base to support year round racing. That should be obvious to almost everyone given the daily handle at each venue. However, there are other tracks out there that should close, or drastically reduce dates, if they are not making a profit on their racing product.

Jim

[BIG49010]

Just think if they did shut down for 2 months, the purses they could offer would empty all the tracks of horses. Maybe the should, I'm all for it!

Andy could get a nice tan in South Florida, like the old Andy Beyer days!

[tzipi]

Gulfstream ran 10 on Friday, in good weather, and handled $4.5 million. We ran 9 at Aqueduct, in the rain, and handled $4.8 million.

But we should close in the Winter.

Makes sense.

Every time AQU handle comes up or a "close NY racing in the winter" comes up, this post should be posted. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

20 years ago Sunday, Dec 5, 1993, these were the winning riders on the Aqueduct Card.

Mike Smith (2 wins)
Michelle Lutrell
Eddie Maple (placed first via DQ)
Nick Santagata
Frank Lovato Jr
Dennis Carr
Caesar Bisono
Robbie Davis

The overall handle was 1.9 million according to equibase chart. *seems like this was pre simo days*

[WJ47]

I can't wait! I have a lot of happy memories betting on Aqueduct's inner track. :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

Again, NYRA tracks were already empty BEFORE other tracks emptied out, despite having the largest metropolitan area to draw fans from. So NYRA's problems were caused by their own mistakes.

How was Saratoga performing in 1980? How is it performing now?

But put Saratoga aside, when did AQU and BEL empty out? When did their peers empty out?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Gulfstream ran 10 on Friday, in good weather, and handled $4.5 million. We ran 9 at Aqueduct, in the rain, and handled $4.8 million.

But we should close in the Winter.

Makes sense.

Ya know, now that I think about it, maybe he should be a track executive.

At one point, was AQU closed during the winter? You've running during the winter for as long as I can remember, but that's only back to the late 80s.

[Robert Goren]

For all my knocking of NYRA, the AQU inner is the one thing they get right. It is tough to hold a meet in cold weather and they do as good a job as can be expected. I do hope there the field size is a little better than last year. With the purses it is offering, they should be.

[Saratoga_Mike]

At this point, I suspect it is quite shot. The bad decisions were made back in the '70's (and remember, NYRA lost its attendance over a decade before California tracks did).

But long term, I'd say the following might help:

1. Not racing in the winter. Consider Gulfstream to be part of the New York circuit.
2. Closing one of the two tracks and consolidating operations at the other.
3. Renovate the track that remains open along the lines of what Stronach did at Santa Anita.
4. Get the races off TVG and onto network television whenever possible.
5. Do a full court press to cultivate reporters, sports talk hosts, bloggers, local sportscasters, etc, so that when a big race or a good horse comes along, you get some promotion (this is why the Santa Anita Derby still draws 35,000 plus).

NYRA has an amazingly good racing product. And it should be easier to draw in NYC than anywhere else- you get a couple of percentage points of the population interested and that's all you need. Unfortunately, there is decades of damage from NYRA negligence to overcome.

You're intimating here that Stronach is a better steward of racing assets than NYRA - laughable. Shall I provide you with the write-downs at Magna Entertainment over time?

On #4, are you joking? The networks aren't interested in carrying racing, except for the big races. If you could put together a deal between NBC and NYRA to carry races on a regular basis, I'm certain NYRA mgt would pay you handsomely for such a deal.

On #5, 35,000 at the Santa Anita Derby - remind us what attendance was for the Travers this yr? The Belmont?

[cutchemist42]

As a new horseplayer, what's the significance of the Inner Track?

[Robert Goren]

As a new horseplayer, what's the significance of the Inner Track?All the races are on the dirt and it is well known for it biases. In other words, it is a "bullring" with good horses. What's not to like?

[Ocala Mike]

At one point, was AQU closed during the winter? You've running during the winter for as long as I can remember, but that's only back to the late 80s.



During the 60's, a decade or more before OTB, the NY season typically ended on Nov. 30th for the "winter of our discontent" until around March 15th of the next year. NY horseplayers turned their attention to South Florida and Cali racing through their bookmakers, or anxiously awaited the mid-January opening of Bowie in Maryland for live racing.

[Pensacola Pete]

At this point, I suspect it is quite shot. The bad decisions were made back in the '70's (and remember, NYRA lost its attendance over a decade before California tracks did).

But long term, I'd say the following might help:

1. Not racing in the winter. Consider Gulfstream to be part of the New York circuit.
2. Closing one of the two tracks and consolidating operations at the other.
3. Renovate the track that remains open along the lines of what Stronach did at Santa Anita.
4. Get the races off TVG and onto network television whenever possible.
5. Do a full court press to cultivate reporters, sports talk hosts, bloggers, local sportscasters, etc, so that when a big race or a good horse comes along, you get some promotion (this is why the Santa Anita Derby still draws 35,000 plus).

NYRA has an amazingly good racing product. And it should be easier to draw in NYC than anywhere else- you get a couple of percentage points of the population interested and that's all you need. Unfortunately, there is decades of damage from NYRA negligence to overcome.

1: That will lower tax revenues for the state.

2: Who gets to be the unlucky track?

3: Who's going to pay for it? Surely not NYRA. Certainly not the track. Definitely not the taxpayers. They may renovate the casinos.

4: Horse racing draws almost zero viewership, outside of the Triple Crown and Breeders Cup. Even ESPN doesn't want much to do with it.

5: Reporters cover what people want to read. The mainstream doesn't care about horse racing outside of those mentioned in #2.

[classhandicapper]

I don't think many people would suggest getting rid of winter racing in NY and replacing it with nothing as long as it's profitable. I think the idea has been that the land could be used more profitably than winter racing by converting Aqueduct (the race track itself) it into retail space, casino expansion, a hotel etc... and continue just simulcasting. How that can work out favorably for NYRA is an issue unless the slice is big enough, but on pure economics.....

[NTamm1215]

All the races are on the dirt and it is well known for it biases. In other words, it is a "bullring" with good horses. What's not to like?

At least there's one part of this statement that's accurate.

All of the races are run on dirt, but the surface has been remarkably bias-free since Glen Kozak became the superintendent. There has been no more than one week each of the last five meets where there was a bias. The most pronounced last year came after the long holiday break (Dec 26) and lingered for a few days. It is more prevalent when it gets REALLY cold.

Delta, Charles Town, Fairplex = bullrings. Not the inner track.

[Cratos]

1: That will lower tax revenues for the state.

2: Who gets to be the unlucky track?

3: Who's going to pay for it? Surely not NYRA. Certainly not the track. Definitely not the taxpayers. They may renovate the casinos.

4: Horse racing draws almost zero viewership, outside of the Triple Crown and Breeders Cup. Even ESPN doesn't want much to do with it.

5: Reporters cover what people want to read. The mainstream doesn't care about horse racing outside of those mentioned in #2.

It easy to knock NYRA, but the lack of national popularity with racing is not a NYRA problem; it is a racing industry problem.

The racing industry for whatever reasons have not found it worthwhile to organize into a single entity which centralizes the control of the industry.
I am a conservative and against big government, but I would vote for centralization to control and manage the racing industry.

Also take a look at the TRA and the TOBA. They found it worthwhile to create Equibase as the official database of racing and what has Equibase done for the racing fan lately in terms of the quality of the data it provides?

Why didn’t Equibase come up with Trakus type information? That technology is over 60 years old.

Why don’t Equibase have a graphic layout of every racetrack in North America on its website?

Why aren’t the mutual pools of win, place, and show depicted separate in the result charts as opposed to being comingled?

Why there isn’t a fixed value given for the “beaten length” on the Equibase website?

Therefore before NYRA is blame, please take a look at the industry. Yes, NYRA is part of the industry and part of the problem, but it is neither the industry nor the problem.

[Stillriledup]

It easy to knock NYRA, but the lack of national popularity with racing is not a NYRA problem; it is a racing industry problem.

The racing industry for whatever reasons have not found it worthwhile to organize into a single entity which centralizes the control of the industry.
I am a conservative and against big government, but I would vote for centralization to control and manage the racing industry.

Also take a look at the TRA and the TOBA. They found it worthwhile to create Equibase as the official database of racing and what has Equibase done for the racing fan lately in terms of the quality of the data it provides?

Why didn’t Equibase come up with Trakus type information? That technology is over 60 years old.

Why don’t Equibase have a graphic layout of every racetrack in North America on its website?

Why aren’t the mutual pools of win, place, and show depicted separate in the result charts as opposed to being comingled?

Why there isn’t a fixed value given for the “beaten length” on the Equibase website?

Therefore before NYRA is blame, please take a look at the industry. Yes, NYRA is part of the industry and part of the problem, but it is neither the industry nor the problem.

NYRA gets blamed because they're one of the "big 3" (with Stronach and Churchill being the others) so customers feel that they have more clout in the industry and that smaller tracks might follow along if they were cutting edge leaders. It took NYRA (and the state, obviously) forever to institute a pick 5 when it was in Calif for 2 years before and took off as one of the most successful bets in So Cal, yet they all sat on their hands and did nothing.

They still don't have a Pentafecta on the last race and they don't have superfectas on every race for some reason. Still behind the times betting menu-wise.

When you are the "biggest" track or biggest circuit in the nation, you should also be the best in every possible area...so, maybe them not "being the best" is why people blame them for the state of the game.

Somebody has to "step up" and be leaders and clean up this sport and many fans and customers look to the elite tracks to take the lead....so, that's probably why they get held to a higher standard than Thistledown or Prairie Meadows.

[overthehill]

you are comparing apples to oranges. the inner dirt track is not the outer and
gp just started its meet. come back with comparative figures in january. I will be surprised if the handle in gp isnt bigger. as there will probably be lots of 12 horse fields in florida and lots of 5 horse fields in new york.

[Cratos]

NYRA gets blamed because they're one of the "big 3" (with Stronach and Churchill being the others) so customers feel that they have more clout in the industry and that smaller tracks might follow along if they were cutting edge leaders. It took NYRA (and the state, obviously) forever to institute a pick 5 when it was in Calif for 2 years before and took off as one of the most successful bets in So Cal, yet they all sat on their hands and did nothing.

They still don't have a Pentafecta on the last race and they don't have superfectas on every race for some reason. Still behind the times betting menu-wise.

When you are the "biggest" track or biggest circuit in the nation, you should also be the best in every possible area...so, maybe them not "being the best" is why people blame them for the state of the game.

Somebody has to "step up" and be leaders and clean up this sport and many fans and customers look to the elite tracks to take the lead....so, that's probably why they get held to a higher standard than Thistledown or Prairie Meadows.

I don't disagree with you about NYRA's size (about 60% of total NA handle), but does size equal influence or control? Apparently not

[Saratoga_Mike]

I don't disagree with you about NYRA's size (about 60% of total NA handle), but does size equal influence or control? Apparently not

It isn't 60% of NA handle. It's around 20% of US handle, and obviously lower if you include Canada.

"Total handle on NYRA races alone climbed 12.4 percent to $2.2 billion last year over $2.0 billion in 2011.

According to Equibase, handle on all races in the United States rose 1 percent to $10.9 billion in 2012 from $10.8 billion in 2011. The $232 million handle increase on NYRA’s races was more than double the $103 million industry-wide handle increase reported by Equibase."

Source: NYRA press release (Jan 18, 2013)

[Robert Goren]

At least there's one part of this statement that's accurate.

All of the races are run on dirt, but the surface has been remarkably bias-free since Glen Kozak became the superintendent. There has been no more than one week each of the last five meets where there was a bias. The most pronounced last year came after the long holiday break (Dec 26) and lingered for a few days. It is more prevalent when it gets REALLY cold.

Delta, Charles Town, Fairplex = bullrings. Not the inner track.You have your opinions about bias and I have mine. I am talking about short time (usually a day) bias. They are what keep me in the black. While technically it is not a "bullring", it acts like one for the purpose of handicapping that is reason it is so popular with bettors like me.

[cj]

You have your opinions about bias and I have mine. I am talking about short time (usually a day) bias. They are what keep me in the black. While technically it is not a "bullring", it acts like one for the purpose of handicapping that is reason it is so popular with bettors like me.

How does it "act like a bullring?"

[dilanesp]

When you have the largest handle, what exactly is the problem?

Already explained upthread.

[Clocker]

I have never played the inner track, but have been researching the web in preparation. One thing I came across in several articles is that the track has very sharp turns for a one mile oval, favoring front runners in two turn races. This was mentioned to be particularly true in a mile and 70 race, with a fairly short run from the gate to the club house turn.

My research indicates that a very strong surface inside bias for speed has been greatly fixed, but can still exist. A couple of people noted an occasional reverse bias for a short time. When the track thaws out a little after a hard freeze, the track can favor off pace runners in the middle of the track, especially in the stretch run.

Any experiences with these things?

[dilanesp]

New York had OTB BEFORE anybody else. And a LOT of them.

OTB was set up to protect NY tracks (the surcharge), and many foreign jurisdictions had OTB and successful tracks prior to New York getting it.

The expansion to year round racing and NYRA incompetence / corruption destroyed New York racing, not OTB.

[dilanesp]

How was Saratoga performing in 1980? How is it performing now?

But put Saratoga aside, when did AQU and BEL empty out? When did their peers empty out?

Saratoga went up along with Del Mar, Oaklawn, and other resort tracks. So it succeeded despite NYRA, not because of it.

[dilanesp]

You're intimating here that Stronach is a better steward of racing assets than NYRA - laughable. Shall I provide you with the write-downs at Magna Entertainment over time?

On #4, are you joking? The networks aren't interested in carrying racing, except for the big races. If you could put together a deal between NBC and NYRA to carry races on a regular basis, I'm certain NYRA mgt would pay you handsomely for such a deal.

On #5, 35,000 at the Santa Anita Derby - remind us what attendance was for the Travers this yr? The Belmont?

The Travers was not at a NYC track, and it took years for NYRA to figure out how to promite the Belmont.

[dilanesp]

I don't think many people would suggest getting rid of winter racing in NY and replacing it with nothing as long as it's profitable. I think the idea has been that the land could be used more profitably than winter racing by converting Aqueduct (the race track itself) it into retail space, casino expansion, a hotel etc... and continue just simulcasting. How that can work out favorably for NYRA is an issue unless the slice is big enough, but on pure economics.....

Finally some rationality here.

And if doing this harms NYRA, that's a feature, not a bug.

[cj]

OTB was set up to protect NY tracks (the surcharge), and many foreign jurisdictions had OTB and successful tracks prior to New York getting it.

The expansion to year round racing and NYRA incompetence / corruption destroyed New York racing, not OTB.

Now we are comparing racing in the US to foreign countries? Come on...and OTBs were set up to protect racing? WOW. That surcharge really kept those OTBs empty, didn't it?

Simple question, does NYRA make more money with or without racing in the winter? We all know the answer is with winter racing.

[the little guy]

OTB was set up to protect NY tracks (the surcharge), and many foreign jurisdictions had OTB and successful tracks prior to New York getting it.

The expansion to year round racing and NYRA incompetence / corruption destroyed New York racing, not OTB.


No, OTB was set up to siphon money out of a financially successful industry into municipalities around the State of NY.

Honestly, you really have no idea what you are talking about. I get it. It's the internet. A browser, a keyboard, and some free time are pretty much all it takes for some people to pretend they are experts. In your case, it's not working. But it's entertaining, so please, don't let me stop you.

[affirmedny]

OTB was set up to protect NY tracks (the surcharge), and many foreign jurisdictions had OTB and successful tracks prior to New York getting it.

The expansion to year round racing and NYRA incompetence / corruption destroyed New York racing, not OTB.

My post was directed at your post that attendance started going down in the 70's way before California's did. Do you actually believe OTB had nothing to do with the decline in attendance? Do you not concede NY had OTB way before California and that's why their attendance declined before California?

NY racing is destroyed? Really?

I was around in those days, don't know if you were, I seem to recall it was the horsemen that lobbied for year round racing, not NYRA.

[Tom]

Already explained upthread.

No real problem has been identified.
NYRA handles more money than anyone else.
THAT is not a problem.

the only problem is you don't like it.
So play Gulfstream.
Maybe you can tip the scale in favor of their handle.

Problem solved.


How in the hell doesn't the running of the track matter?
It's not who cooks the steak that matters, only how it tastes.

[Ocala Mike]

No, OTB was set up to siphon money out of a financially successful industry into municipalities around the State of NY.



Absolutely; the six OTB regions that were set up ran their operations like medieval fiefdoms. A prime example of political patronage run amok.

[wiffleball whizz]

Meanwhile back at the ranch how did u run that v-cash up to a non $400 number :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Aqueduct inner is good racing action

[Stillriledup]

Post of the year Whizz!! :lol:

[andtheyreoff]

They still don't have a Pentafecta on the last race and they don't have superfectas on every race for some reason. Still behind the times betting menu-wise.


They don't have a Hi-5 because

a) It's almost impossible to hit, especially at a $1 minimum.
b) They're not very popular with bettors. Last Saturday at Tampa, they had two Hi-5s: one in the fourth, which handled just $5,097, and one in the last, which handled $5,205. Why add something that people don't really like?

As for the superfectas, it's part of a strange law that says there can't be a superfecta on a race with a coupled entry (which is why, whenever one half of an entry is scratched, it'll say "superfecta added")

[Tom]

Meanwhile back at the ranch how did u run that v-cash up to a non $400 number

I'm good! :cool:

[classhandicapper]

I thought OTBs were set up to expand betting handle by taking market share away from illegal book makers and giving people that were busy or that didn't want to travel to the track a chance to make a bet etc... There was no way to get a bet down in those days unless you went to the track or used a bookie and most people work or are too busy to go to the track.

IMO, it was a good idea for the time.

The model for setting it up was preposterous, but since when did government or government influenced entities ever do anything in a way that would maximize efficiency and earn a high return on investment?

That's rarely the goal.

The goal is usually to expand or hold power, pay back someone for something etc...

[Saratoga_Mike]

No, OTB was set up to siphon money out of a financially successful industry into municipalities around the State of NY.

Honestly, you really have no idea what you are talking about. I get it. It's the internet. A browser, a keyboard, and some free time are pretty much all it takes for some people to pretend they are experts. In your case, it's not working. But it's entertaining, so please, don't let me stop you.

Exactly right - it was about political patronage. How else would one explain the various regional entities that were set up? Perhaps the west coast counselor will enlighten us.

[the little guy]

Exactly right - it was about political patronage. How else would one explain the various regional entities that were set up? Perhaps the west coast counselor will enlighten us.

I wouldn't characterize it that way. It may have ended up that way, but I will be less cynical, and say that it was more an attempt to share the wealth around the State of NY. It was a different time, and racing was very profitable back then.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I wouldn't characterize it that way. It may have ended up that way, but I will be less cynical, and say that it was more an attempt to share the wealth around the State of NY. It was a different time, and racing was very profitable back then.

If it was just about revenue for local municipalities, they could have just set up one legal entity, with each host location paying taxes to the county in which it resided. Instead, various fiefdoms were set up - classic NY politics. I guess I'm more cynical than you (didn't think that was possible!).

[cj]

About my only complaint on the inner is that they card races at 1m, 1m70y, and 1m1/16. The mile races, at the least, need to go.

[Cholly]

Nobody’s mentioned my favorite aspect of The Inner: the abundance of two-turn races. A race around two turns entails a great deal more strategy and drama. They’re not just twice the fun; two-turn races are infinitely more engaging and fun to watch. It’s like watching a road race as compared to a drag strip.

[cj]

Nobody’s mentioned my favorite aspect of The Inner: the abundance of two-turn races. A race around two turns entails a great deal more strategy and drama. They’re not just twice the fun; two-turn races are infinitely more engaging and fun to watch. It’s like watching a road race as compared to a drag strip.

I do like the two turn races, save my comment earlier.

[1st time lasix]

some might argue that the inner.... in most years is an inside drag strip.....

[cj]

some might argue that the inner.... in most years is an inside drag strip.....

Some might argue it, but they would be wrong.

[Robert Goren]

some might argue that the inner.... in most years is an inside drag strip.....Not lately as a general rule, but there have been some days where it was.

[OTM Al]

Some might argue it, but they would be wrong.

Even when it would get the bias in years past it still needed certain weather conditions. It seemed to me you needed a hard freeze for a couple days and no precipitation (rain anyway as some snow would be ok as long as it didn't melt) and only then it would get really fast. As soon as it got wet or warmed up it would go away even back then. Now even with the freeze the track maintenance can cancel this out.

[cj]

Not lately as a general rule, but there have been some days where it was.

There are no tracks, especially among those racing in the dead of winter, that don't experience some biased days.

[Robert Goren]

There are no tracks, especially among those racing in the dead of winter, that don't experience some biased days.That is a good thing.

[classhandicapper]

That is a good thing.

It used to be a great thing. But now that Andy discusses track condition on TV all day in NY and then follows up on the horses next time they run, perhaps the only value is in finding the days where differences of opinion on the merits of the horses going into the day resulted in differences of opinion on whether there was a bias or not. Either that, or hope no one listens to Andy. ;)

[Arapola]

Don't forget the sometimes vicious winds!

:ThmbDown::ThmbDown:

:ThmbDown:

[overthehill]

I dont know about the bias being the dominating factor. it may end up being the jockey colony. I suspect we could well end up in a situation where 3 or 4 jockeys have huge winning percentages. junior alverado being one who comes to mind.

[sally]

Which jockeys tend to do well with the Inner? Is it best to be aggressive or no? ( Getting ready for the Contest....:D)

[the little guy]

junior alverado being one who comes to mind.

I'll take the under.

[cj]

How'd betting all that speed work out today?

[the little guy]

How'd betting all that speed work out today?

Well, you got that Jacobson claim that couldn't keep up in it's prior starts.

The track got wetter, and faster, in the middle of the card.