Fillies in the Derby and controversial point system

[RacingFan1992]

I have read many articles saying that "Fillies are not allowed in the Derby because of the point system." which is a load of crap. I have heard many say that it isn't fair that the fillies have to run in open company if they want to points for the derby. Does anybody have any ideas of a better way a horse could qualify for the Derby.

[cj]

I have read many articles saying that "Fillies are not allowed in the Derby because of the point system." which is a load of crap. I have heard many say that it isn't fair that the fillies have to run in open company if they want to points for the derby. Does anybody have any ideas of a better way a horse could qualify for the Derby.

Sure, just make the top points earner for the Oaks an automatic Derby qualifier if they want it. If not, oh well.

[VeryOldMan]

Sure, just make the top points earner for the Oaks an automatic Derby qualifier if they want it. If not, oh well.

This thread might be over in one.

[RacingFan1992]

I guess if there was a filly out there and her connections wanted her in the Derby and they thought she had a good chance of winning, why not.

I found that there was about 38 so far that ran and 3 have won. http://horseracing.about.com/od/triplecrown2000/a/aakdfillies.htm

[VeryOldMan]

I guess if there was a filly out there and her connections wanted her in the Derby and they thought she had a good chance of winning, why not.

I found that there was about 38 so far that ran and 3 have won. http://horseracing.about.com/od/triplecrown2000/a/aakdfillies.htm

I guess the question is also whether the "cj modification" would have identified Genuine Risk and Winning Colors, the two winning fillies I remember. My recollection is that each was a true superstar and considered the best of her class and that it would. Others may remember better.

Per the chart you posted, there have only been 3 times in the last 80 runnings of the Derby where there were 2 fillies entered in the same year. In those three years, none of the fillies won (best finish was a 4th). My view is that we are most likely to see an occasional single superstar filly per year that should take on the boys. cj's modification would very likely allow for it and is a neat solution to the perceived problem.

[CincyHorseplayer]

IMO the simple solution is to merely add the filly preps to the list of points receiveing races,modified to lower totals obviously,just to put it out there for the connections to mull.Top fillies are better than a lot of the #19 and #20 also rans in the Derby.Perhaps even have a bonus for winning X prep and the Derby.It's intriguing at the very least.

[cj]

I guess the question is also whether the "cj modification" would have identified Genuine Risk and Winning Colors, the two winning fillies I remember. My recollection is that each was a true superstar and considered the best of her class and that it would. Others may remember better.

Per the chart you posted, there have only been 3 times in the last 80 runnings of the Derby where there were 2 fillies entered in the same year. In those three years, none of the fillies won (best finish was a 4th). My view is that we are most likely to see an occasional single superstar filly per year that should take on the boys. cj's modification would very likely allow for it and is a neat solution to the perceived problem.

Winning Colors won the SA Derby, so the point would have been moot with her. Genuine Risk ran in the Wood, but she didn't win...2nd or 3rd maybe? Off the top of my head I don't know if that is enough. Both tried colts before the Derby.

[Shemp Howard]

The Ky breeders never want a filly winning the Derby and they finally figured out a way that gives them what they want.

[RacingFan1992]

What I find to be crazy is that Genuine Risk and Winning Colors were damn fine fillies but somewhat poor producers. If you think about Winning Colors would have 200 points or more because she won both the Santa Anita Oaks/Derby. I think only the winners of the Gulfstream Park Oaks, Fair Ground Oaks, Ashland Stakes, Santa Anita Oaks, Gazelle Stakes and Fantasy Stakes should have the opportunity to run in the Derby if their owners and trainers seem fit.

[affirmedny]

What I find to be crazy is that Genuine Risk and Winning Colors were damn fine fillies but somewhat poor producers. If you think about Winning Colors would have 200 points or more because she won both the Santa Anita Oaks/Derby. I think only the winners of the Gulfstream Park Oaks, Fair Ground Oaks, Ashland Stakes, Santa Anita Oaks, Gazelle Stakes and Fantasy Stakes should have the opportunity to run in the Derby if their owners and trainers seem fit.

My theory on this is that great fillies that beat colts are too masculine to be good producers.

As far as them qualifying for the Derby, there are plenty of chances for them to run against colts before the Derby, why should beating fillies get them in?

A filly that's good enough to win the Derby is good enough to win the SA derby or the Wood, no?

[burnsy]

Winning Colors won the SA Derby, so the point would have been moot with her. Genuine Risk ran in the Wood, but she didn't win...2nd or 3rd maybe? Off the top of my head I don't know if that is enough. Both tried colts before the Derby.

You are exactly right. There is no "percieved problem", you have to run in one of the big (open company 3 yo) races to qualify.....filly or colt. Why would you run in filly only races and then toss your horse into the derby? Most likely with little shot. These people have a short memory too. Remember the bitching last year about Dreaming of Julia after she won a Gulfstream (oaks) prep by 20.......Oh, this poor horse should get a chance in the derby. The new rule is a travesty they claimed:bang: . Well, she didn't even win the Oaks and was basically a flash in the pan in her division. People see one big race against any old garbage and the "filly" is a super star. Thats exactly what this points system avoids. Some fool posted that breeders don't want fillies in the race, not true, they want qualified fillies in this race. You think you are that good? You should at least place in ONE of the big preps when they come up...all the colts have to do it. They want the BEST of THAT generation.......they don't want spectacles, where the hype gets you in. "Derby fever" is not some made up idea, at least this is an attempt to curb some of it...you get more horses that actually raced in equal competition, this is good for that race. No one bars any of the fillies from taking at least ONE shot with EVERYONE thats trying to qualify. Its only fair, prove yourself first, then you can run. The "controversy" is a made up thing by people that want fillies to get a short cut after they see one good race against fillies only. When a filly gets barred from the SA Derby, The Wood, or any other prep....let me know.

[RacingFan1992]

I think that burnsy hit it right on the head. One outstanding race does not a derby winner make. I guess I really want to see a filly run in and win the Kentucky derby but I do not want to see one run just because her owners want her to run I would want the horse there because she is ready to run. Anybody ever think that a horse could pull the oaks/derby double? Win both races back to back.

[CincyHorseplayer]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/82351/ria-antonia-readies-for-run-against-boys?source=rss

Here we go RacingFan1992.

[Some_One]

I think that burnsy hit it right on the head. One outstanding race does not a derby winner make. I guess I really want to see a filly run in and win the Kentucky derby but I do not want to see one run just because her owners want her to run I would want the horse there because she is ready to run. Anybody ever think that a horse could pull the oaks/derby double? Win both races back to back.

One outstanding race does make a Derby Winner, it's exactly what the Derby is, the best horse and performance on the first Saturday of May. Now maybe the best 3yr old of the year is like the above and that we'll see that this year as Will Take Charge should win that.

[RacingFan1992]

What I meant when I said "One outstanding race does not a derby winner make." is that the horses that kill the field in the prep races like the wood and Florida derby aren't necessarily going to win the Kentucky Derby. One example is Dreaming of Julia. She blew them away in the Gulfstream Oaks then went to the Oaks and was a flop.

[magwell]

If they want them to run in the derby, let them earn their way in against the boys , end of story.............;)

[RacingFan1992]

I am not saying she will do it but she is one I am going to watch. Ria Antonia is trying to go for the Derby.

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/10108894/ria-antonia-readies-kentucky-derby-run

[letswastemoney]

I am not saying she will do it but she is one I am going to watch. Ria Antonia is trying to go for the Derby.

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/10108894/ria-antonia-readies-kentucky-derby-run
A lot of people have criticized this and written she has no hope. I think she can fare well in the prep races, and clunk up for some points if she catches a race where the pace collapses.

I'm not sure I'd like to bet her in the Derby if she makes it though.

[dilanesp]

I guess the question is also whether the "cj modification" would have identified Genuine Risk and Winning Colors, the two winning fillies I remember. My recollection is that each was a true superstar and considered the best of her class and that it would. Others may remember better.

Per the chart you posted, there have only been 3 times in the last 80 runnings of the Derby where there were 2 fillies entered in the same year. In those three years, none of the fillies won (best finish was a 4th). My view is that we are most likely to see an occasional single superstar filly per year that should take on the boys. cj's modification would very likely allow for it and is a neat solution to the perceived problem.

Winning Colors won the Santa Anita Derby. She gets in under any system.

Genuine Risk had run in the Wood and would have had some points at least.

EDIT: Someone already posted the same points. Oops.

[RacingFan1992]

This is the dumbest coincidence but she does have the name to win a Triple Crown Race. The R's have it.

Kentucky Derby
Regret (1915)

Preakness Stakes
Rhine Maiden (1915)
Rachel Alexandra (2009)

Belmont Stakes
Ruthless (1867)
Rags to Riches (2007)

The rest is
Kentucky Derby
Genuine Risk (1980)
Winning Colors (1988)

Preakness Stakes
Flocarline (1903)
Whimsical (1906)
Nellie Morse (1924)

Belmont Stakes
Tanya (1905)


Would be nice.

[CincyHorseplayer]

A lot of people have criticized this and written she has no hope. I think she can fare well in the prep races, and clunk up for some points if she catches a race where the pace collapses.

I'm not sure I'd like to bet her in the Derby if she makes it though.

These are 2yo's and its early December right now.We don't know much about anything or who is likely to do what in these races.We more than likely haven't even seen the cast yet.