PAIHL - Chatter

[Ted Craven]

Hi Folks,

I'm just setting up the various opening Threads for the upcoming PAIHL Team Contest - one of our most popular.

The Contest runs Saturday January 4 through Saturday May 3, 2014 - Kentucky Derby Day.

The Contest Management team has been reviewing all the comments and suggestions from those who played in the 2013 PAIHL, and some proposals for Rule Changes will appear in this space very shortly - for your commentary and discussion.

Hopefully by the end of the coming weekend, we'll have a consensus of how we all want this year's Contest to run. Then Chris (Track Collector) - will post the Official Rules and the Sign-in Poll.

Meanwhile - everyone who is interested in fielding a 3-person Team, please discuss amongst yourselves and get ready for the Sign-up.

Please stay tuned to this space!

Ted

[Ted Craven]

In order to finalize the Official Rules and Schedule for the 2014 Season for the PAIHL, I reviewed all the feedback given during the 2013 season and I am distilling it here, as best I understand it, for discussion and commentary over the next few days. I'll consult with Track Collector, PaceAdvantage and Jay Trotter over all the suggestions, and we'll publish the final Rules and the Team Sign-up page by Monday morning latest. I appreciate everyone's feedback!


The main concerns, and suggestions for improvement, as I see it, lie in 3 areas:

1. Treatment of BYES, for the Top 6 Regular Season finishers ('it gives them an unfair advantage over non-bye teams', versus 'it rewards them for strong showing over the long season - gives them a breather, and avoid elimination for 1 more week')

2. While the Top Half of the Regular Season teams should continue to the Finals, those teams (e.g. 18 teams last year) should continue to compete against each other through the end, rather than face elimination each week.

3. The kinds of races included in the competition schedule ('low class' races and tracks, versus 'higher class', etc)

Perhaps there are other categories for improvement, and please suggest them.


Here is a set of proposals, for commentary:

1. Eliminate BYES, and no Team eliminations Post-season. Instead, play a Regular Season for 14 weeks (versus 15 last year) then take a 1 week breather before commencing a 3 week (4 day) Finals (Post-season). The Top Half of the Regular Season teams go into a Group A which qualifies for the Cash and other main prizes. The Bottom Half go into a Group B, which qualifies for Honourable mention, perhaps some minor prizes. BOTH groups play 3 more weekends (4 days x 8 races = 32 more events) culminating with the Kentucky Derby. Contest winner is the Team (Group A) with the most points from the Finals (Post-season).

Having 32 events over 4 days (3 weeks, including 2 days at KY Derby weekend) minimizes a single 'unlucky' bad or mediocre day, which formerly lead to immediate elimination. Any team can have a bad day, but the best Teams should not have too many bad days. (For example - my team finished last year on top of the Regular Season, got a BYE, then had 1 bad day and we were finished). Emphasize the 'skill' and 'endurance' aspect of such a contest by eliminating 'sudden death'.

A by-product of continuing with 'all-play-all' post-season Finals, and having 2 Groups, is that it gives people more opportunities to continue playing - and (for advertising Sponsors: i.e. those who fund the prizes) - this continues to attract full Contest participation for an additional 3 weeks - especially during the high-point of Kentucky Derby weekend.

Teams are expected to play the full Regular Season (i.e. even after they have qualified for the Finals). This is just good sportsmanship! Teams missing one week of the Finals (post-season) are eliminated.

Instead of a Finals Round 1 BYE for the Top 6 Regular Season teams (i.e. to reward the top finishers) - how about starting the Finals with an amount of points = the number of Teams you beat in your Group. Example: Group A = 18 teams (as last year) - the Top Group, the prize group. Top Ranked Team (i.e. Regular Season winner) starts with 17 points. 18th ranked team starts with 0 points. OR - divide those points by 2 (given half the number of teams going forward in each Group). It's a certain reward for Regular Season consistent performance, though not an insurmountable one for the lower ranked teams.

2. Make a 'statement' of the important criteria in selecting races for each round. All things being equal, the Schedule Master (PaceAdvantage again this year) follows these guidelines (i.e. to the greatest degree possible, but not more ...):

a) free WhoBet Brisnet races,
b) 4 tracks maximum,
c) about 4 hours duration,
d) larger fields,
e) mindful of weather and tracks likely to cancel or switch surface = many scratches,
d) prefer few or no FTS and prefer that horses have a goodly number of races run (exception for 3YO Graded Stakes races)
e) consequently, Maidens and other ‘lower class’ races and tracks are acceptable in support of the above preferred goals

Note: I tried, but could not get any free PPs from TrackMaster, so WhoBet is all there is.


That's it from me! All commentary welcomed. Again - Rules will be finalized Sunday evening and the Sign-up posted Monday.

Everyone who is a member of another handicapping community - please promote this Contest on your other Forum. It's an Inter-Board Handicapping League!

Thanks,

Ted

[Greyfox]

!




1. Eliminate BYES, and no Team eliminations Post-season. Instead, play a Regular Season for 14 weeks (versus 15 last year) then take a 1 week breather before commencing a 3 week (4 day) Finals (Post-season). The Top Half of the Regular Season teams go into a Group A which qualifies for the Cash and other main prizes. The Bottom Half go into a Group B, which qualifies for Honourable mention, perhaps some minor prizes. BOTH groups play 3 more weekends (4 days x 8 races = 32 more events) culminating with the Kentucky Derby. Contest winner is the Team (Group A) with the most points from the Finals (Post-season).



Ted

Good idea. Get's my vote. :ThmbUp:

[Jay Trotter]

Just wanted to be the first to say "my team is back baby"! The Parlay Kings (2012 Champions) including Maumeeriverangler, ndsc32 and your truly have agreed to team up once again.

Good luck to all!:ThmbUp:

[Overlay]

Just wanted to be the first to say "my team is back baby"! The Parlay Kings (2012 Champions) including Maumeeriverangler, ndsc32 and your truly have agreed to team up once again.

Good luck to all!:ThmbUp:
Ahem! SOME of us were waiting for the team sign-in thread to open. (Team Overlay (davew, Track Collector, and yours truly, representing Overlay Publications.com (http://www.overlaypublications.com)) will charitably view your post as a former champion's prerogative!) :)

[Ted Craven]

OK - I too will wait for the Official Rules and Sign-in thread to open on Monday to formally announce that RDSS Team Sartin (Midland333 - Binder - Ted Craven) are returning to avenge our 2013 Regular Season Win :) (followed by our Finals Round 2 face-plant :blush: ).

http://paceandcap.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Any comments on the above ideas?

Ted

[Jay Trotter]

Ahem! SOME of us were waiting for the team sign-in thread to open.Rules, rules, we don't need no stinkin' rules! :jump:

[Track Collector]

The following "format" was put together before reading Ted's proposal. (I have subsequently read Ted's plan, and see no real concerns.). I also like the idea of the finals consisting of more races, so as to minimize the luck factor. Subject plan presented below only addresses the top A-group (which was 24 teams last year), and is based on the premise that a regular season of significant length to sufficient identify the top/best teams.

One draw-back is that some teams do get eliminated and therefore do not play every week.

The plan:

--- Top 24 teams (including ties) make the playoffs. Teams not making the playoff have their own tournament.
--- Playoffs consist of three rounds.
--- Round 1 ---> Teams ranked 11th thru 24th from regular season play. Top 3 (including ties) advance to next round.
--- Round 2 ---> Teams ranked 6th thru 10th from regular season plus top 3 from round 1 play. Top 3 (including ties) advance to next round.
--- Round 3 --> Teams ranked 1st thru 5th from regular season plus top 3 (including ties) from round 2 play.

While some folks do not like the idea of a bye, top teams (by demonstration over the entire season) desire to go to a higher level in the playoffs before they risk elimination.

As to the Group B tournament, I think that any team that does not enter selections in the last week of the regular season should not be allowed. This would act as an incentive to play the entire season, even if a team's chances are remote.


Chris

[Track Collector]

One improvement to the above proposal to reduce the amount of time off for some teams.

Most everyone has some type of interest in the Kentucky Derby (weekend), so those in Group A who are eliminated in either round 1 or round 2 of the playoffs could play in another group for the same type of prize being offered for the Group B teams who do not make the playoffs.

I recognize that Ted has a fast-approaching deadline, so I'm comfortable with whatever is decided. :)

[Greyfox]

While some folks do not like the idea of a bye, top teams (by demonstration over the entire season) desire to go to a higher level in the playoffs before they risk elimination.




Chris

Count me in as one who does not like the idea of byes. :ThmbDown:
And I'm sure several others don't either.

[Ted Craven]

It seems to me that the main issues are:

1. How best to reward Top Teams from the Regular Season as they move to the Finals,

2. Whether to conduct the Finals on a progressive elimination basis.

1. Rewarding Top Teams - we can either give them a BYE for 1 or 2 Final rounds, or we can give them a bonus points reward relative to their Regular Season finish. Both are a reward. BYEs give both a breather and respite from elimination. It seems BYEs and the prospect of elimination go hand-in-hand (i.e. the concepts are linked). Bonus points are also a reward: the better the finish over a long Regular Season, the greater the bonus relative to the surviving teams.

It strikes me that the winner of the tournament should have had to survive continual challenge from every one else. A BYE in the Finals, while rewarding, removes some of the challenge which a Winner should have to survive. BYEs reduce competition, and also reduce activity. It seems if we're having a tournament, we should try to engage as many people as possible for as long as possible.

Thus - I favour the bonus points approach over the BYE approach as a reward for Regular Season high standing.

2. Eliminations in the Finals. The only reason to eliminate teams throughout the Finals is to more easily count points (or dollars won) to determine the winner. If points are still easily counted without eliminations, even if the competition is thinned by halving the teams going into the Finals (or making 2 Groups) - then the Finals could go forward simply continuing to count points (number of teams beat each round).

Is there any extra value eliminations serve towards the goal of counting up to the Winner, versus simply all teams continuing to compete and continuing to count the points?

* * * *


The above arguments summarized, and thinking about Chris' idea (and privately received comments), my simplified proposal would be:

1. Top Half of Regular Season Teams join Finals Group A. All Teams start again with 0 points - PLUS bonus points = the number of teams you beat, divided by 2. Example: 48 teams play, Top 24 proceed to Finals Group A. Team ranked #1 beat 23 teams and gets bonus points = 23 / 2 = 11.5 rounded up = 12.

Group A teams play 3 weekends more (4 days), no eliminations, accumulating points based on the number of teams beat each day. Winner determined by points count.

2. Bottom Half of Regular Season Teams join Group B. Same bonus point system applies as for Group A, same play schedule, same winner criterea

3. Group A winners qualify for cash prizes and PACS points. Group B winner(s) receive honourable mention, perhaps some other prize.

4. Teams have to play in the final Regular Season round to qualify for Finals in either Group. If a Team misses one Finals round, they are eliminated.

5. Schedule - play 14 Regular Season rounds from January 4 through April 5. Take 1 week off (April 12). Play 3 Final weeks April 19, 26, May 2 & 3 (4 days, 32 events). Contest Concludes with Kentucky Derby May 3.

Final thoughts?

Ted

[Greyfox]

Personally, I don't see a need for Playoff rounds- points bonuses, or byes.
If one of the lower teams makes a piss pot full of money on Oaks and Derby days and wins the whole thing, so be it.
That's horse racing.

[coachv30]

Where do we post our names as free agents?

[Track Collector]

Where do we post our names as free agents?

Under this thread (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109039), which was just opened about 45 minutes ago.

[ten2oneormore]

I am fine with whatever rules you guys decide to change but think it's kind of hasty with less than a month.Especially if the intention is to get input from most of the players pool.

[Track Collector]

I am fine with whatever rules you guys decide to change but think it's kind of hasty with less than a month.Especially if the intention is to get input from most of the players pool.

Future contests in the 2014 Series will have much more advance notice.

Unknown to most, but as recently as 10 days ago there were still some serious doubts about whether or not the contest series started in 2012 would continue in 2014. There were a number of issues and concerns that had to addressed and worked out in detail to get us to where we are today.

[ndsc32]

I like BYES, think they are an important part that a team shoots for. It's a long contest and with no byes why worry about winning? It's an incentive that is important in a contest of this type. ( Just my 2 cents worth.)

[mrhorseplayer]

Have more turf races, sprints and routes

[Ted Craven]

I like BYES, think they are an important part that a team shoots for. It's a long contest and with no byes why worry about winning? It's an incentive that is important in a contest of this type. ( Just my 2 cents worth.)

Let's think about what a BYE does - a) it provides a deferral of elimination for the Team (Top 6 Regular Season, last year) and b) a breather to recoup. So this is a valuable reward for superior performance, Regular Season.

This year, there are no eliminations in the Finals - an even stronger test for the ultimate Winner, so in this format a BYE does not serve any more to defer elimination. Instead, to maintain the reward for top Regular Season play, the Top 8 teams receive bonus points - putting them again at an advantage in the Final rounds compared to the rest of the teams with no bonus, or smaller bonuses.

And this year, everyone gets a 1 week break following the Regular Season so I admit that the 'break' aspect of the value of a BYE is not enjoyed exclusively by the Top Teams.

So - instead of BYEs as a reward for Regular Season excellence, you get something hopefully just as good (Finals bonus points). Plus the overall benefits to all players (and the Sponsor) of having FULL contest participation through the end and on the big Kentucky Derby weekend. Seems like a good trade-off for replacing the BYE concept.

cheers,

Ted

[Ted Craven]

Have more turf races, sprints and routes

I agree! Where the Schedule would otherwise permit several races with fuller fields, horses with racing histories, races paced close enough together, with PPs available from the WhoBet site - prefer Turf races to the extent that they are represented fairly among the 8 races that day, say ~ 1/3 of them? (or cumulatively over several weeks).

I'm sure it's not always easy to get the race mix right, given the combination of preferences.

Ted

[Track Collector]

A number of players have acknowledged the rules (by voting "yes), but have not advised us of their playing status.

Please post under subject thread to let us know if you plan to bring in your own team, are already on an existing team, or are a free agent, in which case you want others to contact you about joining their team.

As a helpful resource, posting#2 under the Sign-In and Rules Acknowledgement thread will show you a current summary of teams and free agents. (This summary is updated several times daily.).

Thanks!


Chris

[Track Collector]

It looks like we currently have 32 full and/or partial teams so far. Opening day is this coming Saturday. See posting #2 in the Rules Acknowledgement thread for the most current info.

Some observations:
--- Some team members have not acknowledged the rules by voting "yes" in the poll at the top of the Rules Acknowledgement thread. If your name (in posting #2) is blue, you are ok, otherwise, we are still waiting for you to vote.
--- Some folks have voted yes in the Rules Acknowledgement thread, but their name does not appear either on a team or the free agent list. If you want to play, you need to let us know ASAP!
--- Free agents who have not been contacted and still want to play should start contacting other free agents immediately to form a team.


...

[Ted Craven]

WELCOME TO THE 2014 P.A.I.H.L. SEASON

January 4 through May 3, 2014

http://paceandcap.com/images/pnc_hdr_right.png (http://www.sartinmethodology.com)
www.SartinMethodology.com (http://www.SartinMethodology.com)


http://www.sartinmethodology.com/images/pa/PACS_2014_MD.png


2014 P.A.I.H.L.
Title Sponsor & Prizes

**** To Be Announced Soon! ****

* * *

Introducing the Support Staff

The Score Master:

Jay Trotter
(assisted by Track Collector & Ted Craven)

The Schedule Master:

PaceAdvantage
(Thursday evening Race Schedules)

Rules Master:

Track Collector
(Sign-up, Rules)

The Organizing Committee:

Ted Craven, Track Collector, Jay Trotter, PaceAdvantage

The Teams
(so far):

Squatheads (RDSS) - 2013 Champions
auntjanet5 - dogkatcher - goatchaser
http://sartinmethodology.com/images/pa/PAIHL_Squatheads_2013.jpg

The Parlay Kings - 2012 Champions
Jay Trotter - Maumeeriverangler - ndsc32

Team Las Vegas
pat5336 - mudcat - kingfin66

Team Overlay (OverlayPublications.com (http://www.overlaypublications.com))
Overlay - davew - Track Collector


Da Cappers (e-ponies.com)
Passrace (RDSS) - Turfway Ed - Capper Al

Team Sartin (RDSS)
Ted Craven - Binder - Golf Man

Retired Out to Stud
tiger rose - oneg12 - TBD

Team LOCKS
TheEdge07 - Si2see - GaryG

Assiniboia Cappers
FunkyMonkey - scb5679 - Stan717

Also Eligibles
coachv30 - horses4courses - BlinkersOn

Team PickMasters
Red Knave - offtrack - Immanuel Kant

Team Texas (RDSS)
Procefus - dcn7272 - botc

The Gold Runners
joeyp - dylbert - LAP_520

Team Dynaformer
ten2oneormore - mrhorseplayer - Smokinjoe@bp

Master of Futility
camourous - TBred17Roan - Chackiee

Dangerous Dams and the Duke (RDSS)
canadagoose - Old Gray Mare - rmath

Arlington Cappers
illinoisbred - Striker - tbwinner

Team Hawgwash
planks46d - mmdorn - headhawg

Legion of Doom
FWizard - WarEmblem - netbet

Hottalkers 1
Chiefcrazybear - handycapmike60 - Hottalkerinkentucky

Swing for the Fences
turfeyejoe - roamin - Aner

Rough Riders
Big Red - don - pioneer476

La Familia
Mana - spicytomato - MONEY

Pens Pens RDSS
Idiatone - cdax - gaz

Team Game Over
JETSWIN - terrygolf1313 - alydar

Team PaceAdvantage
PaceAdvantage - nijinski - joeprunes

Team NFS
Fastracehorse - FiveWide - Nets

Pear Shaped
McCarron - Oracle - Precisionist

Pucks & Ponies
jdhanover - bitter - iwearpurple

Down 2 with the Puck
cj's dad - cj - wiffleball whizz

The Sunshine Pros
Beachbabe - Turkoman - PICSIX

loadedwithclass
JolyB - Indypacer - maclr11

Team Free Pig Money
freehouse2002 - pigpen - moneyandland

Team Gapfire
Gapfire - Greyfox - Barney Rubble

CanAm Turfers
funnsss1 - badbrew - cutchemist42

Team Derby Trail
pointman - jms62 - ateamstupid

LetItRide
Maximus - Racetrack Playa - AlbertButtry

Sweetspicylove (RDSS)
buffaloxp - pktruckdriver - sovatthana

* * * *

FREE AGENT LIST
(Teams needing players - please PM these individuals)

turffan

*

Welcoming Teams and players representing PaceAdvantage.com, PaceandCap.com, e-ponies.com, Del Mar Fan Forum, DerbyTrail.com, HotTalkers, Assiniboia Downs, Texas, Arlington, Pennsylvania, Las Vegas, Overlay Publications, HSH, RDSS (any other affiliations I've forgotten ?!)

Just another reminder folks - Round 1 starts next Saturday January 4. All team members must sign the Rules Acknowledgement before the team is eligible for the Contest. Teams must be complete and signed-in by next Saturday morning. Anyone who has signed the Rules Acknowledgement but not joined a Team or the Free Agent List - please do so ASAP!

Any incomplete teams - please contact members of the Free Agent list to round out your teams. Free Agents, please contact each other to form teams, or contact incomplete teams to ask to join (Teams with less than 3 identified or signed-in members).

The Race Schedule will be posted next Thursday evening in the Round 1 Thread by the Schedule Master - PaceAdvantage.

Lastly - we anticipate announcing the 2014 Contest Sponsor and the full Prize roster by late next week.

Good luck everyone!

Ted

[McCarron]

Hi Ted - One of our team members for Pear Shaped, Precisionist, responded yes in the poll and has signed up in the proper thread but is not showing in blue. Thanks..

[Ted Craven]

Hi Ted - One of our team members for Pear Shaped, Precisionist, responded yes in the poll and has signed up in the proper thread but is not showing in blue. Thanks..

Done! Thanks for the head-up.

Ted

[McCarron]

I'm looking forward to another year of this contest - the team aspect makes it really worthwhile and I find it extremely engaging.

Note to all players: Although bitching is in our Horseplayer DNA, please keep in mind that the contest administrators are volunteering to put this together and it's a free contest. Before you complain about race selection, post times, tracks involved, scoring, etc., keep in mind what this is all about. Let's enjoy this, understanding the context and spirit of the contest.

Good luck and good racing....

[dylbert]

Schedule shows GG7 this week. Is this correct? Rules state that-- "Only races with Free Brisnet PPs will be considered except for the final two contest games with Churchill Downs races." Are we going with 7 races? Substitute race? Or just ignore stated rule?

Thanks for clarification.

[PaceAdvantage]

You guys are a bunch of ball busters, you know that? lol

One guy per team can't come up with the PPs for GG race 7?

Now if I go and change the schedule, I'm going to have an equal amount of people bitching at me that they never got the change and they handicapped for GG race 7, not whatever race I change it to.

And the only race I have to change it with would be a race from Aqueduct...and you know if I do that, that will guarantee they cancel on Saturday.

[PaceAdvantage]

SCHEDULE HAS BEEN CHANGED FOR WEEK #1

See reply #12 at the following link:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109674

[dylbert]

It is mistake. Just correct it. No one should fault insertion of another race which conforms with rules. It's only Thursday plenty of time for all teams to adjust their handicapping.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's been changed. Sorry for my screw up. I will make sure to double and triple check next week before I post it up. I could have sworn there were PPs for GG race 7...guess I was seeing things.

[Jay Trotter]

Mike, it's a good thing you have "balls of steel" so no worries. It's all good. Let's have a great season. http://paceadvantage.com/forum/images/UBGX/I9.gif

[dylbert]

Thanks for clarification/correction.

[Track Collector]

No Event 4 (Aqueduct race 9) today, as Aqu cancelled today after race 2 due to heavy fog.

There are no alternate races, so the contest will be scored on the remaining 7 contest races.


...

[LAP_520]

Hello Teams of the P.A.I.H.L.,

I have been asked by Jay Trotter to "step up to the scorer's table" and live score this contest on 1/18/2014.

I have been in the background of the P.A.I.H.L. contest keeping score and conferring with Jay and Ted since the contest started. So, hopefully, the step-in can be as smooth as possible.


I have also been posting the scratches and changes in the Gapfire Ridersup Memorial Aqueduct Inner Track Pick-4 Challenge this year.

My background.... kept the scorebooks for my high school's baseball, basketball and soccer teams.. while majoring in business education. Sorry, my high school was too small to have a football program. .. In college, traveled with and kept the scorebook for basketball, while getting an AAS Degree.


A Big Help to me this week .....when posting your team's selections remember to post your team's number and name. It will make things go much quicker imputing the data.

Thank You all very much and Good Luck !

LAP_520 (Larry)

2012-2013 Gapfire.com Ridersup Memorial Champion

[PaceAdvantage]

Much thanks to Larry for filling Jay's shoes!

[Ted Craven]

Just to summarize and reiterate the decisions applied in Week 4 regarding multiple selection posts:

Despite the 'dispensations' given 'in the spirit of the game' to a team in Week 2 and again to a different team in Week 4 - Rule 6 is exceedingly clear and will be applied for all teams in all future Rounds:Rule 6. POSTING

-- One member of each team is responsible for posting that team's selections each week. (It does not have to be the same person each week, however, in the event of multiple postings, the first posting will be considered the team's official selections.).

-- ALL selections must be contained within a single posting and be posted at least one minute prior to the off time of the first contest race. (Players are responsible for the accuracy of their time-stamp.). Late postings will be scored $0 for each race missed. Two suggestions:
(a) Before clicking the "SUBMIT" button, click the "PREVIEW POST" button to review your selections. ;)
(b) If it looks like you might miss the first contest race, DO NOT hurry up and submit selections for only the 1st contest race. Trust us in saying that only very bad things will happen with regard to scoring your team that week. Instead, take the time required to get all of your selections posted in a single posting, even if it means missing a race or two.
-- A late posting will only be scored on races that run a minute after the post.
-- While teams are allow only one selection posting, subject posting may be edited within the brief time as allowed by the PaceAdvantage forum application, as long as the "edit" time stamp is at least 1 minute prior to the contest race off time. After that, no other alterations are allowed after that first post.

So, going forward - 1 selection post only; whatever events are included in the 1st selection post are the ONLY events to be scored for the week; if it's late for any events, those count as $0 and only the remaining events get scored. Pretty simple.

We're going to accept the points earned for for both the Teams involved in both the weeks.

Onwards!

Ted

[cj's dad]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/buttons/green/quote.gif (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1571781) http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/buttons/green/reply_small.gif (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1571781&noquote=1) http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/statusicon/post_old.gif Today, 09:16 AM #139 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1571805&postcount=139) jms62 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?u=1787)
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7
vCash: 400


Quote:
Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz
Just for the record there was a pm sent earlier in the day and after consulting our team members we came to the conclusion that we as in team 6 has elected to KEEP OUR POINTS..........

There will be no surrendering of any points by down 2 with the puck....

There was no ill intent by any member of our team to gain an advantage.....

As a post script the whizz sked will be freeing up big time so I'm looking forward to spending Saturdays competing in this contest....






TL;DR.........team 6 keeping all points



No ill intent but you did gain an advantage. No Way Your team was obviously not ready to meet the deadline in the rules that you signed. If you had to submit what you had at deadline it was likely that you would have missed entering several of the later races. I can't see how you can disagree with this otherwise you would have submitted on time. The extra time allowed your team to completely configure your card so you did in fact gain an advantage.

Trying to clear up this issue. I (cj's dad) was the sole poster on Saturday. The contest slipped my mind as I was busy doing other things.When I logged on to PA at 4 PM I saw the contest thread and remembered that cj was not handling this as he normally does, he was out of town. I assumed the Whiz was working and did not want to waste time texting back and forth. I saw that I had but twelve minutes before event 2. I hurriedly scanned cj's pace figures and posted my selections with a note that the remainder would be posted prior to event 3. This ended up being the case. There was no decption, advantage, etc whatsoever. I had all I could do to get in the second set of selections.I guess I am too much of a golfer because my team would have done the honorable (so, we're dishonorable?)thing and said the rules are the rules and called a penalty on ourselves. It is a stick in the eye to the other 100+ players that arranged their schedules accordingly. It wasn't like the rule had any ambiguity whatsoever it is clear has day to the other 39 teams. Good luck going forward. Just had to get this off my chest.

Hoping you feel better.

[Track Collector]

Just to summarize and reiterate the decisions applied in Week 4 regarding multiple selection posts:

Despite the 'dispensations' given 'in the spirit of the game' to a team in Week 2 and again to a different team in Week 4 - Rule 6 is exceedingly clear and will be applied for all teams in all future Rounds:Rule 6. POSTING

-- One member of each team is responsible for posting that team's selections each week. (It does not have to be the same person each week, however, in the event of multiple postings, the first posting will be considered the team's official selections.).

-- ALL selections must be contained within a single posting and be posted at least one minute prior to the off time of the first contest race. (Players are responsible for the accuracy of their time-stamp.). Late postings will be scored $0 for each race missed. Two suggestions:
(a) Before clicking the "SUBMIT" button, click the "PREVIEW POST" button to review your selections. ;)
(b) If it looks like you might miss the first contest race, DO NOT hurry up and submit selections for only the 1st contest race. Trust us in saying that only very bad things will happen with regard to scoring your team that week. Instead, take the time required to get all of your selections posted in a single posting, even if it means missing a race or two.
-- A late posting will only be scored on races that run a minute after the post.
-- While teams are allow only one selection posting, subject posting may be edited within the brief time as allowed by the PaceAdvantage forum application, as long as the "edit" time stamp is at least 1 minute prior to the contest race off time. After that, no other alterations are allowed after that first post.

So, going forward - 1 selection post only; whatever events are included in the 1st selection post are the ONLY events to be scored for the week; if it's late for any events, those count as $0 and only the remaining events get scored. Pretty simple.

We're going to accept the points earned for for both the Teams involved in both the weeks.

Onwards!

Ted

While it is the expectation that all PAIHL contest participants will check in to read the "Chatter Thread" on a regular basis, the reality is that Ted's posting will be seen mainly by team captains and/or the person who regularly posts your team's selections.

From here forward, the rule is more likely to be broken by a team member who seldom has responsibility for posting your team's selections. It would be prudent to confirm that ALL your team members understand, otherwise it could end up costing your team a lot of points somewhere down the road.


Chris

[LAP_520]

Adding my thoughts....

One post or two posts to input all selections is not what I am discussing here.

This is my second year of not having to worry about a job on the "weekend". I know how it is when you have to work to make a living.....especially on weekends.

People have "other" commitments to deal with also. Family, appointments, whatever. So things like "FREE Contests" tend to be put on the back burner for a while, or just not able to get involved with "on time" at all.

I have been following the PAIHL contest this year very closely,,,,, because 1.) I have the time and 2.) I am also learning how to work the scoring sheets. I have noticed in the first four weeks that there are teams that post at certain times in the afternoon prior to First Post off time of Event one.

Does this give an advantage to them .. seeing what the other teams have submitted ( ?) .. Maybe, Maybe not .... but the opportunity is present. I would like to think they post when they do because that is when they have the time to do the submitting.

I have been in Team 6's shoes in the past while I had to work... wondering how I was going to get the selections from my teammates in time to put something together and submit it prior to leaving for work... Once off to my job when I was working, there was no way to post anything.

I have that problem this upcoming week (5 ) .. how am I going to get our team's selections together for this contest to submit before I have to leave for an appointment.( which by the way has been moved up FIVE hours ) So if I cannot get it posted by 11 AM... it might not get in by me at all. It is tough when you are the person in charge of submitting.


We all have our problems and commitments that have to be dealt with. It could happen to any one of us in any given week------
The PAIHL contest involves Eight races...missing one race or two races of that week's contest is bad..... but not life threatening.... Submit the remaining races with accuracy as stated in the Rules.


All the Best,

LAP_520
member of
Team 34 THE GOLD RUNNERS

[tiger rose]

Unread Yesterday, 06:18 PM #129
Jay Trotter
CANADIAN

Well, I made my previous post without reading all the other goings-on. It saddens me to see some of this.

Just from my point of view.....when we write up the rules we do the very best we can and we try to think out situations and address them. At the end of the day we aren't "professional rules writers" and the main thing we want is "the spirit of the game". That is why we (I) made the allowance last week and it was applied again this week.

Obviously, we'll have to address this issue going forward and either choose to be iron-clad or not in applying the written rules.

Trotter

Well why even make the rules,if they are going to be enforced week by week,or ignored week by week ? ?

[davew]

The discussion has been rather interesting, and if I interpret some of the posts correctly - it seems some teams entry was made entirely by one person on the team for that week. This surprises me, but reading the rules, it does not say that team members need to participate in selection process.

This helps me understand why some of the 'teams' hit $500 exactas and $50 winners occasionally.

[cj]

The discussion has been rather interesting, and if I interpret some of the posts correctly - it seems some teams entry was made entirely by one person on the team for that week. This surprises me, but reading the rules, it does not say that team members need to participate in selection process.

This helps me understand why some of the 'teams' hit $500 exactas and $50 winners occasionally.

Lots of ways to do it. Split races, collaborate on each race, or just rotate days. There are no rules, and really, how could they ever be enforced if there were?

[pat5336]

Well why even make the rules,if they are going to be enforced week by week,or ignored week by week ? ?


Tiger rose don't waste you're time, you will be told It's my website and he will do what ever he whats to do each and every contest day.

[Mystic]

Tiger rose don't waste you're time, you will be told It's my website and he will do what ever he whats to do each and every contest day.

Well, none of us are forced to be here really.. I guess if any of us players don't like it then we don't have to participate in the forum or the contests here.

I couldn't imagine another board owner saying stuff like this guy does, but hey.. like he says.. "It's his site and he can damn well do or say as he damn well pleases"...

[Ted Craven]

Tiger rose don't waste you're time, you will be told It's my website and he will do what ever he whats to do each and every contest day.

Not so! The rules are the rules and will be enforced as described above. You can natter all you like, and others can natter back if they like (or you could just take it up in Private Messages - please). It will surely shed much heat, but no more light - and it will change nothing about what is past.

If you are too put out, don't play.

Please also remember that when YOU yourself would be in the position to benefit from a ruling (in this or in a future contest) deemed 'in the spirit of the game' (e.g. a grey area, or area not clearly covered by existing rules) - you would possibly like the Contest Administrators to act with generosity when appropriate. Yes? If so, please try for some perspective here and, with respect - move on.

yours,

Ted

[cj]

The best way to solve this is for those that don't like the rulings for my team and the other in week 2 (to which nobody, by the way, objected) to just beat us via the selections route.

[illinoisbred]

I can't say I can see what all the fuss is about. Rules are rules but as Ted stated the "spirit of the game" has a place in interpretation of intent too. No way,no how do I see where the "spirit" was violated. Petty bickering if you ask me.

[Nets]

[QUOTE=cj]The best way to solve this is for those that don't like the rulings for my team and the other in week 2 (to which nobody, by the way, objected) to just beat us via the selections route.[/QUOTE

Agreee 100%. There was no past posting involved. A little common sense will tell you it was an unfortunate late realization of the need to post the picks. I don't want our team to benefit from a technicality against another team when there was obviously no ill intent. We just want to win by our picks, which so far this year, have been decent.

Gary -Team NFS

[BlinkersOn]

I really wish Jay Trotter had said who sent him that phony message about e.ponies. It clearly states that they advertised they are giving great prizes in their upcoming contest, that they have the best scorekeeper, and that they are the best forum on the net. I looked in on e.ponies, and there is nothing except a free contest going on, and none of the above was even mentioned. I think someone just sent a phony message to stir things up.

When Jay was invited to visit the forum, PA said something to the effect that "he is as likely to do that, as the ex-pope is to visit Rome." The ex-Pope is Pope Bendict, and he lives in Vatican City (in Rome.) He and Pope Francis visit together often, so that statement is completely false. As a good Catholic, I just wanted to clear that fact up.

As for the contest, I'm SMDH, but I also realize this is a free contest, and I didn't pay to enter it. If I had paid, I would be making a lot of noise right about now. We need to put it behind us, and just move on already,.[

That's all that's on my mind right now.

[cdax]

The best way to solve this is for those that don't like the rulings for my team and the other in week 2 (to which nobody, by the way, objected) to just beat us via the selections route.

If it's the team I'm thinking about two weeks ago, no one needed to object, someone on that team posted ALL eight events on one post. It may have been the moderator's decision to allow scoring of first event since it was late and maybe no one caught it. But posting in two distinct posts was a no-no from day one. Many teams handicap the evening before. If you may be working Saturday afternoon then post prior to work (before scratches) as some other teams do. Sure you may lose some selections due to scratches.

Spirit of the game should apply to everyone all the time, not a CYA when a goof up arises.

I am okay with what was ruled. I don't want anyone to quit because of my observations. If I were bitter about it I would do as you suggest and try to beat the pants off everyone in the contest (but I'm not that good).

That week is done, it's been said it won't happen again. Let's move on to next week.

Chris

[wiffleball whizz]

Tiger rose don't waste you're time, you will be told It's my website and he will do what ever he whats to do each and every contest day.


That's out of line :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[cj]

If it's the team I'm thinking about two weeks ago, no one needed to object, someone on that team posted ALL eight events on one post. It may have been the moderator's decision to allow scoring of first event since it was late and maybe no one caught it. But posting in two distinct posts was a no-no from day one. Many teams handicap the evening before. If you may be working Saturday afternoon then post prior to work (before scratches) as some other teams do. Sure you may lose some selections due to scratches.

Spirit of the game should apply to everyone all the time, not a CYA when a goof up arises.

I am okay with what was ruled. I don't want anyone to quit because of my observations. If I were bitter about it I would do as you suggest and try to beat the pants off everyone in the contest (but I'm not that good).

That week is done, it's been said it won't happen again. Let's move on to next week.

Chris

No, there was a team that did pretty much exactly what my Dad did, two posts.

Anyway, like you said, I'm moving on. I haven't picked very well thus far.

[cj's dad]

Here is what you do not understand; as a relatively new poster on this forum, you have zero credibility.Have you have met anyone one here outside of the message board. Many of us have met at Saratoga, Oaklawn, Belmont, Aqueduct, Keeneland, others have met at Arlington Park, Gulfstream, Delmar. Santa Anita. and Remington Park. You have been here for less than 4 years and have < than 500 posts. You really are making yourself look foolish with these lame posts re: a contest that means ZERO!

Have fun in the future here at PA and try to not take things so seriously. It's a contest; no high stakes involved.

[Greyfox]

Here is what you do not understand; as a relatively new poster on this forum, you have zero credibility.Have you have met anyone one here outside of the message board. Many of us have met at Saratoga, Oaklawn, Belmont, Aqueduct, Keeneland, others have met at Arlington Park, Gulfstream, Delmar. Santa Anita. and Remington Park. You have been here for less than 4 years and have < than 500 posts. You really are making yourself look foolish with these lame posts re: a contest that means ZERO!

Have fun in the future here at PA and try to not take things so seriously. It's a contest; no high stakes involved.

Wow. :eek:

[cdax]

Here is what you do not understand; as a relatively new poster on this forum, you have zero credibility.Have you have met anyone one here outside of the message board. Many of us have met at Saratoga, Oaklawn, Belmont, Aqueduct, Keeneland, others have met at Arlington Park, Gulfstream, Delmar. Santa Anita. and Remington Park. You have been here for less than 4 years and have < than 500 posts. You really are making yourself look foolish with these lame posts re: a contest that means ZERO!

Have fun in the future here at PA and try to not take things so seriously. It's a contest; no high stakes involved.

Just because I don't shoot my mouth off on every topic here just to get 5,000 posts to prove my "credibility" is absurd. If you are that credible you should know the rules this site is supposed to enforce and abide by them.

I WAS at Saratoga, same tables, same tent. Met a lot of nice people, don't recall meeting you. Sorry I didn't make it to any other events, I don't have a son as profound in horse racing like you do that affords me that luxury.

I'm sure all the other members on this site with less than 4 years and less than 5,000 post really feel welcome knowing they have "zero credibility".

Thanks for turning this into a personal attack, when all I was doing was pointing out a rules violation.

[wiffleball whizz]

Just because I don't shoot my mouth off on every topic here just to get 5,000 posts to prove my "credibility" is absurd. If you are that credible you should know the rules this site is supposed to enforce and abide by them.

I WAS at Saratoga, same tables, same tent. Met a lot of nice people, don't recall meeting you. Sorry I didn't make it to any other events, I don't have a son as profound in horse racing like you do that affords me that luxury.

I'm sure all the other members on this site with less than 4 years and less than 5,000 post really feel welcome knowing they have "zero credibility".

Thanks for turning this into a personal attack, when all I was doing was pointing out a rules violation.


Not sure what cj has to do with anything here in terms of cjs dad attending racing events.....??

It's a little severe what's going on here......I seriously doubt cjs dad was making a personal attack on you


There seems to be a lot of "rule czars" in this contest......lots of crying.....I don't recall seeing this in other contests especially in the deltoga challenge.....


Again the rules police need to go away.......there was no ill intent on cjs dad part.....I know he posts from his computer at home, he doesn't post from a iPhone like a lot of us do.....(could only imagine the posts he would come out with if he had a iPhone at 12:35am at Fred and margies :lol: :lol: )


By the way.......cute dog :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Jay Trotter]

I really wish Jay Trotter had said who sent him that phony message about e.ponies. It clearly states that they advertised they are giving great prizes in their upcoming contest, that they have the best scorekeeper, and that they are the best forum on the net. I looked in on e.ponies, and there is nothing except a free contest going on, and none of the above was even mentioned. I think someone just sent a phony message to stir things up.Had a big day Deep Sea Fishing today and caught a big one!

Just to respond to Blinkers statement....in the email I received from E-Ponies there is a link that says "View This Email in Your Browser".......so, basically you can see the email I received in Web Page format HERE (http://us3.campaign-archive2.com/?u=7b21acce90c383e5317ceb382&id=7849a3fed8&e=8c25b3f036)

Now it doesn't really matter to me if he believes I was sent this email by E-Ponies or not but if anyone wants a copy just message me with your email address and I can forward the actual email.

Either way, PaceAdvantage kicks E-Ponies ass in every way imaginable.

[kingfin66]

Personally, I am fine with the ruling that Ted, etal made. My only wish is that the rulings, if they are to be made "in the spirit of the game," be applied consistently. In the Pick 4 contest, there was an issue with the scoring when a horse scratched at the gate. As a result, many players had the post time favorite and hit the pick 4 multiple times. An error with the charts, however, resulted in an initial ruling that the players who were affected would not get credit. The ruling by Ted in that contest was that the rules would be strictly enforced. There was no "spirit of the rules" interpretation. It was only after one of the players contacted Equibase to get the chart error fixed that the points were credited.

Some of the comments I have seen in this and the other thread are, to be honest, rather appalling. The thing is, if the rules were applied consistently this thread would not even be necessary. It is supposed to be a fun contest so why not just keep it that way. Along those lines, I would suggest revising the rules to add something to that effect and that rulings will be made in "the spirit of the game" and that common sense and fair play shall prevail. I would also suggest the dog and pony show of being required to confirm that we have read and understand the rules. The proverbial horse has, in fact, left the barn. Any future transgressions by any teams in this contest should be treated just as the those that occurred in weeks 2 and 4. That is the only way to keep things fair at this point.

[kingfin66]

Here is what you do not understand; as a relatively new poster on this forum, you have zero credibility.Have you have met anyone one here outside of the message board. Many of us have met at Saratoga, Oaklawn, Belmont, Aqueduct, Keeneland, others have met at Arlington Park, Gulfstream, Delmar. Santa Anita. and Remington Park. You have been here for less than 4 years and have < than 500 posts. You really are making yourself look foolish with these lame posts re: a contest that means ZERO!

Have fun in the future here at PA and try to not take things so seriously. It's a contest; no high stakes involved.

Please keep the points, but lose the arrogance. He has just as much credibility as you or anybody else on this forum. What I honestly got out of your post is that you feel that you are entitled to special treatment because you have hung out with people at Saratoga.

FWIW, I have also met numerous people from this board and forged friendships with them, all of which gives me no more or less credibility than you.

[kingfin66]

Originally Posted by pat5336
Tiger rose don't waste you're time, you will be told It's my website and he will do what ever he whats to do each and every contest day.

That's out of line :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Not really given the reality that the site Administrator really told him that in response to him giving his opinion. PaceAdvantage was extremely strident in flexing his muscles by saying that it is his site. This is, of course, true. The problem is that he is doing it in response to someone expressing his opinion about a decision made in a contest in which they are both participating in equally as contestants. If anybody was out of line it was Pace Advantage.

[pat5336]

PaceAdvantage
PA Steward

PaceAdvantage's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 38,646
vCash: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms62
No ill intent but you did gain an advantage. Your team was obviously not ready to meet the deadline in the rules that you signed. If you had to submit what you had at deadline it was likely that you would have missed entering several of the later races. I can't see how you can disagree with this otherwise you would have submitted on time. The extra time allowed your team to completely configure your card so you did in fact gain an advantage. I guess I am too much of a golfer because my team would have done the honorable thing and said the rules are the rules and called a penalty on ourselves. It is a stick in the eye to the other 100+ players that arranged their schedules accordingly. It wasn't like the rule had any ambiguity whatsoever it is clear has day to the other 39 teams. Good luck going forward. Just had to get this off my chest.

PaceAdvantage

No, not several. Just one. The first event. That's why he double posted. To make sure he got the first event in on time.

There is no rule that says you can't post after the first event goes off. The rule says only one post per team. If you post that one post after an event has gone off, you'll only lose credit on the event you missed. The rest still count.

What rules are you reading, you really don't know............... :eek:


6. POSTING

-- One member of each team is responsible for posting that team's selections each week. (It does not have to be the same person each week, however, in the event of multiple postings, the first posting will be considered the team's official selections.).
-- ALL selections must be contained within a single posting and be posted at least one minute prior to the off time of the first contest race. (Players are responsible for the accuracy of their time-stamp.). Late postings will be scored $0 for each race missed. Two suggestions:
(a) Before clicking the "SUBMIT" button, click the "PREVIEW POST" button to review your selections.
(b) If it looks like you might miss the first contest race, DO NOT hurry up and submit selections for only the 1st contest race. Trust us in saying that only very bad things will happen with regard to scoring your team that week. Instead, take the time required to get all of your selections posted in a single posting, even if it means missing a race or two.
-- A late posting will only be scored on races that run a minute after the post.
-- While teams are allow only one selection posting, subject posting may be edited within the brief time as allowed by the PaceAdvantage forum application, as long as the "edit" time stamp is at least 1 minute prior to the contest race off time. After that, no other alterations are allowed after that first post.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well why even make the rules,if they are going to be enforced week by week,or ignored week by week ? ?Next year, we are doing away with all rules.

[PaceAdvantage]

Tiger rose don't waste you're time, you will be told It's my website and he will do what ever he whats to do each and every contest day.Yeah, this place sucks. You should go to e-ponies.

[PaceAdvantage]

I couldn't imagine another board owner saying stuff like this guy does,Yeah, it's truly mind-boggling, isn't it?

Right up there with US fiscal policy and global warming.

[PaceAdvantage]

I can't say I can see what all the fuss is about. Rules are rules but as Ted stated the "spirit of the game" has a place in interpretation of intent too. No way,no how do I see where the "spirit" was violated. Petty bickering if you ask me.And only bickering by a small, small handful of posters.

We have lots of teams here...with three people per team. And yet it seems that 2-3 members are the ones who continue to have a problem. Quite a small minority it seems.

If we go by that metric, it would seem the rest of the players don't seem to have a problem with the way the rules were enforced (or not enforced).

Do you guys write letters to MLB every time a guy misses the bag at 2nd during a double play? Or when a ref lets a blatant foul go late in the game in the NFL, NHL or NBA?

[PaceAdvantage]

When Jay was invited to visit the forum, PA said something to the effect that "he is as likely to do that, as the ex-pope is to visit Rome." That was not at all what I wrote. You misinterpreted big time.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by pat5336
Tiger rose don't waste you're time, you will be told It's my website and he will do what ever he whats to do each and every contest day.



Not really given the reality that the site Administrator really told him that in response to him giving his opinion. PaceAdvantage was extremely strident in flexing his muscles by saying that it is his site. This is, of course, true. The problem is that he is doing it in response to someone expressing his opinion about a decision made in a contest in which they are both participating in equally as contestants. If anybody was out of line it was Pace Advantage.Yeah...after I made my decision and stated no more discussion. If people want to continue discussing after I write that (and I myself am guilty of continuing the discussion), well, then you get the unedited version of PA.

[Ted Craven]

Pat5336,

Re your Post #62 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1572360&postcount=62) (I won't repeat the whole post) -

The way we apply the Rule you cited (Rule 6) is - you have to post at least 1 MTP before the race goes off. If you post 8 race selections and the post is less than 1 MTP of that 1st race, it is not scored, but the rest are. If you miss the 1st race and post 7 races (i.e. events 2 - 8) and your post is posted before the 1 MTP timeframe of the 2nd race event, all 7 races are scored, otherwise, only the ones which are posted sooner than 1 MTP of the respective races are scored.

Please just accept this is how it works, in the past and going forward.

Ted

[Mystic]

How about starting a poll to see just how many players agree or disagree.. I think more disagree than you think.

It won't change anything but would be interesting to see the results.

[PaceAdvantage]

No, not several. Just one. The first event. That's why he double posted. To make sure he got the first event in on time.

There is no rule that says you can't post after the first event goes off. The rule says only one post per team. If you post that one post after an event has gone off, you'll only lose credit on the event you missed. The rest still count.

What rules are you reading, you really don't know............... :eek: What are you talking about? Do you know the rules?

I was responding to someone who stated that the reason cj's dad posted in the way that he did was so he wouldn't miss SEVERAL races.

That simply is not true. He would NOT have missed SEVERAL races if he waited to put all his picks into one post. He only would have missed that first event because it would have gone off before he posted it.

Teams ARE allowed to post their selections AFTER the first contest race goes off.

So where exactly am I wrong? I may be wrong about my interpretation of the post I was replying to, but I am not wrong about the rules.

[Mystic]

Pat5336,

Re your Post #62 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1572360&postcount=62) (I won't repeat the whole post) -

The way we apply the Rule you cited (Rule 6) is - you have to post at least 1 MTP before the race goes off. If you post 8 race selections and the post is less than 1 MTP of that 1st race, it is not scored, but the rest are. If you miss the 1st race and post 7 races (i.e. events 2 - 8) and your post is posted before the 1 MTP timeframe of the 2nd race event, all 7 races are scored, otherwise, only the ones which are posted sooner than 1 MTP of the respective races are scored.

Please just accept this is how it works, in the past and going forward.

Ted
That's how I read it too. Thanks Ted :)

[pat5336]

What are you talking about? Do you know the rules?

I was responding to someone who stated that the reason cj's dad posted in the way that he did was so he wouldn't miss SEVERAL races.

That simply is not true. He would NOT have missed SEVERAL races if he waited to put all his picks into one post. He only would have missed that first event because it would have gone off before he posted it.

Teams ARE allowed to post their selections AFTER the first contest race goes off.

So where exactly am I wrong? I may be wrong about my interpretation of the post I was replying to, but I am not wrong about the rules.

BUT WHY ARE YOU LEAVING SOME OF THE RULE OUT? -- While teams are allow only one selection posting, subject posting may be edited within the brief time as allowed by the PaceAdvantage forum application, as long as the "edit" time stamp is at least 1 minute prior to the contest race off time. After that, no other alterations are allowed after that first post.

[PaceAdvantage]

BUT WHY ARE YOU LEAVING SOME OF THE RULE OUT? -- While teams are allow only one selection posting, subject posting may be edited within the brief time as allowed by the PaceAdvantage forum application, as long as the "edit" time stamp is at least 1 minute prior to the contest race off time. After that, no other alterations are allowed after that first post.I think you and I are discussing different things.

I was merely responding to the notion posted that cj's dad was attempting to avoid missing out on SEVERAL races. When that wasn't the issue at all.

If you look back on his two posts, in his first post, he had the first contest race, and in his second post, he had the other 7 races.

If he had simply waited to post all 8 races, he would have only missed out on the first contest post...NOT SEVERAL, as the person whom I was responding to theorized.

[Greyfox]

If you look back on his two posts, in his first post, he had the first contest race, and in his second post, he had the other 7 races.

.

That's not quite accurate, but the principle you are making is the same.

cj'sdad totally missed posting for the first race.
His first post was for Race 2.
Later he posted for Races 3 through 8.

The bottom line is the Stewards did their best, having erred a couple of weeks back, a dispensation was given for the second posting.
In the "spirit of the game" the points were awarded.
That decision is final.
It is clear that no future dispensations will be allowed.
Time for us to move on.
The contest is a good one and the only one I enter on this board each year.
I'm surprised there wasn't more discussion about the 65-1 longshot that trainer Jorge Periban sent home.
He's on my "Sneaky Trainer List" and I didn't think to use him. I was wrong on that one.

[jdhanover]

This is a great contest...and it is FREE!!!! I am amazed/saddened that there is so much animosity on this. It isn't like anyone 'cheated'.

Now if we could post picks after the race....maybe I'd get half of them right! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

MOVE ON!!!!

[cj's dad]

Good God Almighty- do some of you have nothing better to do in you r lives than to argue about a free contest? There was nothing devious or underhanded about my late posts this past Saturday. As I posted earlier, cj was out of town. I had heard nothing from WW and as I logged on at 4 PM or so, I remembered about the contest. The contest will not in any way cahnge my life. It;s a fun thing to do. I posted for event 2 withing 10-12 minutes of logging in. I posted the balance of the last 6 races within 20 minutes or so of event 3. Some of you here apparently have no life. Get one and move on. There is a life beyond free h'capping contests.

[horses4courses]

Good God Almighty- do some of you have nothing better to do in you r lives than to argue about a free contest? There was nothing devious or underhanded about my late posts this past Saturday. As I posted earlier, cj was out of town. I had heard nothing from WW and as I logged on at 4 PM or so, I remembered about the contest. The contest will not in any way cahnge my life. It;s a fun thing to do. I posted for event 2 withing 10-12 minutes of logging in. I posted the balance of the last 6 races within 20 minutes or so of event 3. Some of you here apparently have no life. Get one and move on. There is a life beyond free h'capping contests.

My sentiments entirely :ThmbUp:

[wiffleball whizz]

Good God Almighty- do some of you have nothing better to do in you r lives than to argue about a free contest? There was nothing devious or underhanded about my late posts this past Saturday. As I posted earlier, cj was out of town. I had heard nothing from WW and as I logged on at 4 PM or so, I remembered about the contest. The contest will not in any way cahnge my life. It;s a fun thing to do. I posted for event 2 withing 10-12 minutes of logging in. I posted the balance of the last 6 races within 20 minutes or so of event 3. Some of you here apparently have no life. Get one and move on. There is a life beyond free h'capping contests.


These people never post in the forums but come out of the woodwork for the free handouts in these challenge series contests........

Never seen so many 254 post posters in my life


Instead of crying about past posting come on the forums and talk some horses/sports.......or at least some religion

[FiveWide]

First off let me be clear in that I have no problem with the ruling on this issue. But I do believe Rule 6 needs to be re-written as it's contradictory.
I'm stating the full rule from the Rules thread and highlighting what I believe is contradictory.

"POSTING

-- One member of each team is responsible for posting that team's selections each week. (It does not have to be the same person each week, however, in the event of multiple postings, the first posting will be considered the team's official selections.).
-- ALL selections must be contained within a single posting and be posted at least one minute prior to the off time of the first contest race. (Players are responsible for the accuracy of their time-stamp.). Late postings will be scored $0 for each race missed. Two suggestions:
(a) Before clicking the "SUBMIT" button, click the "PREVIEW POST" button to review your selections.
(b) If it looks like you might miss the first contest race, DO NOT hurry up and submit selections for only the 1st contest race. Trust us in saying that only very bad things will happen with regard to scoring your team that week. Instead, take the time required to get all of your selections posted in a single posting, even if it means missing a race or two.
-- A late posting will only be scored on races that run a minute after the post.
-- While teams are allow only one selection posting, subject posting may be edited within the brief time as allowed by the PaceAdvantage forum application, as long as the "edit" time stamp is at least 1 minute prior to the contest race off time. After that, no other alterations are allowed after that first post.
"


First it's stated ALL selections must be made prior to the first contest race. Then it talks about late posting in the next sentence. I know the intent but I think it could be worded a little differently for clarity. I'll give it my best shot.


" -- ALL selections must be contained within a single posting and be posted at least one minute prior to the off time of the first contest race. (Players are responsible for the accuracy of their time-stamp.). In the event a team cannot get ALL their selections in at least one minute prior to the off time of the first contest race a late posting is allowed, but at a penalty cost. Late postings will be scored $0 for each race missed."

The remainder of the rule remains unchanged.


-Five

[wiffleball whizz]

Move on gentleman.........

The crying is getting very old......

[Greyfox]

Move on gentleman.........

The crying is getting very old......


Agreed. But FiveWide wasn't crying. He/she was only pointing out an apparent inconsistency in the rules.


Let's move on.

jHPOzQzk9Qo

[Ted Craven]

First it's stated ALL selections must be made prior to the first contest race. Then it talks about late posting in the next sentence. I know the intent but I think it could be worded a little differently for clarity. I'll give it my best shot.


" -- ALL selections must be contained within a single posting and be posted at least one minute prior to the off time of the first contest race. (Players are responsible for the accuracy of their time-stamp.). In the event a team cannot get ALL their selections in at least one minute prior to the off time of the first contest race a late posting is allowed, but at a penalty cost. Late postings will be scored $0 for each race missed."

The remainder of the rule remains unchanged.


-Five

Thank you 'Five' for your proposed Rule wording 'tune-up'. We'll certainly look at that for next year's PAIHL Contest.

All the best,

Ted

[dirty moose]

Can you double up on your second pick? ex 5-6-6 (1-2)

[Charli125]

Can you double up on your second pick? ex 5-6-6 (1-2)

Seems to me this would results in $6 across the board on the 5 and 6, and the same exacta scenario as if you had it 6-6-5.

[dirty moose]

Seems to me this would results in $6 across the board on the 5 and 6, and the same exacta scenario as if you had it 6-6-5.

Yea, I just want to know if that is allowed.

[cj]

Yea, I just want to know if that is allowed.

I haven't seen it, and I wouldn't recommend using it unless the moderators say yes beforehand.

[LAP_520]

Doubling up on a horse number has to be written as this..

6, 6, 5 ( alt, alt )


Any other way is not allowed.



Shown on each race day thread.....

2 Selection Method
3 – 3 – 7 (4 – 12) top 2 picks with the alternates being 4 & 12 in that order.
Team would receive $6.00 payouts for #3; $4.00 payouts for #3; and $2.00 payouts for #7 for Win/Place/Show (assuming no scratches)
Team would receive 4 x $3.00 Exacta Ticket with 3-7
and 2 x $3.00 Exacta Ticket with 7-3

[horses4courses]

Xpressbet listed all races off turf today at TAM in their changes section.

The :1: was playable in R10 on soft turf.

Might have helped had I known about it....... :bang:

[LAP_520]

FYI..... Event 5 of PAIHL Contest today ----

Oaklawn Park has canceled its card for Saturday, Feb. 8, because of sub-freezing temperatures and several inches of snow that fell overnight.

[Old Gray Mare]

I have handicapped for many years and before simulcasting I had no choice but to play the races carded at local "cheap" tracks. Well this contest is a new experience for me, marathon races, more than 1 in a season but 3 in a day! Graded races all over the place. More turf races on a contest card than I ordinarily see in 2 or 3 days. Lots of races carded for young 3 year olds. Now I am learning a lot and I know that many people really enjoy handicapping these races but aren't there some claiming/allowances around. The ones that are most representative of the races many of us see on a daily basis?
I know that it isn't easy to run one of these contests. You get races with full fields then you get comments like mine. You all put a lot of time and effort into this endeavor and you deserve a big thanks.
Pat

[PaceAdvantage]

There are usually a couple of claiming/allowance/Allowance Optional Claimers on a contest card.

Last week was a bit of an aberration. I was trying desperately to avoid bad weather and cancelled contest races. That left lots of Florida and California racing, and it just so happened that the turf races seemed to be the most competitive races offered.

Competitive races are my number one goal when creating a contest card. I RARELY go with a race where the morning line favorite is under 5/2.

I also try and balance the turf vs. dirt, route vs. sprint races on every card. Last week that proved fairly impossible to do. But if you look back on my contest cards over the years, you will see many if not most are fairly well balanced.

[dirty moose]

Are we getting some AQ action this weekend?

[Greyfox]

I know that the scorer's job isn't easy and I'm appreciative of the work of those who do it.
However, I find the contest more enjoyable when the results are posted with more swiftness than they were last weekend - not that it makes any difference to the outcome of various teams at the end of the day.

[cj]

I know that the scorer's job isn't easy and I'm appreciative of the work of those who do it.
However, I find the contest more enjoyable when the results are posted with more swiftness than they were last weekend - not that it makes any difference to the outcome of various teams at the end of the day.

Are you volunteering?

[Greyfox]

Are you volunteering?

Only you would offer that remark. Thankyou, but no.

The fact is it is easier to detect errors in a team's scoring when the posts are put up after each race, than looking back three races to determine if the scores are accurate.

[LAP_520]

I know that the scorer's job isn't easy and I'm appreciative of the work of those who do it.
However, I find the contest more enjoyable when the results are posted with more swiftness than they were last weekend - not that it makes any difference to the outcome of various teams at the end of the day.

SO NOTED.

This contest requires the score keepers undivided attention ~ WHICH I was unable to give it while the teams were posting their selections this week. As you can see I posted "they are off !" at 3:09 pm...... However, I still had to input five teams picks before I could even think about posting results for Event #1 that went off at 3:09 pm

I had all the teams selections recorded by 3:30 pm and I so noted that at 3:32 pm. Of course, I could of RUSHED my two finger typing and made many mitsakes (mistakes) .. but I did asked for everybody's Patience.

Yes, the first three Event results where posted within a 14 minute spread. Again, I was making sure I was inputting the payoff results in correctly..... I have been known to hit the comma instead of the decimal at times which would of blown this the the moon and back. Sometimes, I even put in the wrong payoff amount. I WAS DOUBLE CHECKING.

Pace Advantage does his best to get Good quality, diversified races with respectable post time spacing over a 3 - 3 1/2 hour time period. More times than not, my Family Dinner Time is NOT during the One hour Break between races. That was the case again this past Saturday,,,,, FAMILY FIRST in this home. SORRY.

Event 4, Gulfstrem Race 10, went off at 5:16 pm.. not 5:01 pm as DRF results state... and to get results from DRF .. sometimes I have waited better that 1/2 hour. So to try and stay abreast, I put the results in the scorecard that my ADW showed...... then I look at DRF for results to double check before updating the team standings and then post. Event 4 results were posted at 5:29 pm


Event 5, Gulfstream Race 11, went off at 5:48 pm... not 5:31 pm as DRF results state..... Event 6, Oaklawn Park, Race 8 went off at 5:46 pm ( before Event 5) ...I would not of posted Event 6 results before Event 5 results were posted anyway. All this was During the time I was having Dinner with my Family.

When I returned, I posted the results in Event Order,,, but I FORGOT to check for LATE SCRATCHES,,, My fault totally.

Because, I saw Fair Grounds Race 10 had already finished, and they were only showing the finishing order and no payout, I proceeded to input the results for Event 5, update the team standings and post ( at 6:35 pm). Then, I went and input Event 6 results, updated team standings and post ( at 6:42 pm). Of course, by that time Fair Grounds race 11 was off and racing at 6:37 pm

I pulled the results from my ADW for Fair Grounds Race 10, tried to double check with DRF.... nothing... so I updated standings, and posted Event 7 at 6:47 pm ... NOT realizing that two horses had been scratched.. the #1 and #3

Event 8, Fair Grounds race 11, went off at 6:37 pm as I stated above. Results were entered and team standings updated.. Event 8 was posted at 6:54 pm....

A lot of the time lapse between the race going off and the time the results are actually posted in the contest thread is due to reporting result tardiness between the track involved and DRF. I tried to use DRF results as much as possible this week,,,and if DRF had them, I would of seen the two scratches. However, with them not being up, and it was late in posting the results, I proceeded. The DRF results are "the official reporting agency" for the Gapfire.com Aqueduct Inner track Pick 4 challenge held on this website .... and I did not want to get myself out of sequence in using the DRF results.

By the way, once player freehouse2002 posted that there was a scratch in Fair Grounds Race 10, I immediately verified and found two scratches in that race and made the necessary corrections that reflected in the Event 8 results. Thank You freehouse2002 for posting that info.

I do apologize for the tardiness in posting Event results. However, I still am a "bug boy" at this and still learning ... I THANK GOD that there was not a DEAD HEAT and any of the races. I have not learned how to enter that yet.

I promise to try to be more quicker in posting the team standings the next time I have live scoring duties......

( That is if I have my computer back from being upgraded...... using Windows XP professional and Mircosoft is abandoning their support on April 8, 2014 )

Another tip ~ do not hold your cellphone or any hand held communication device in your hand while seated behind a vehicle steering wheel..... automatic ticket if the LAW sees you. Phone records no longer will be allowed as proof you were not on the device.. I guess these are some of the "Changes" that were promised in Presidential campaign :rolleyes:


Cheers,

LAP_520

RDSS
PaceAdvantage.com
Challenge Series
2012-2013 Gapfire.com
The Ridersup Memorial
Aqueduct Inner Track
Challenge
~ CHAMPION ~

[Greyfox]

Thank you Lap_520. :ThmbUp:
I appreciate your work on this contest and all of the other scorers.
Certainly not an easy task for sure.

My comments were meant more as a suggestion for improving the enjoyment of the game, more than a criticism.

All the best,

Greyfox

[Track Collector]

Thanks Larry (LAP_520).

Jay and I know what you are going thru, and your willingness to help score is greatly appreciated! Unless one has actually filled in as scorer of this contest, they can not truly understand and appreciate all the various details and potential problems that are involved each week.

One suggestion that would reduce the posting delay time........

Eliminate the step to "confirm" the payout prices with DRF. Unlike the Gapfire.com Ridersup contest, the rules of this contest never specifically indicated "who" the official data source would be. It would be perfectly ok to use info from another source like The Racing Channel, Equibase (Quick Results), etc. In the very unlikely event of an error, one or more teams will call it to your attention.

Cheers,


Chris

[Ted Craven]

Larry,

Thanks again for covering for Jay Trotter, who was playing in a live Contest, and for me - away on vacation! You didn't have to explain yourself like you did above, but it shows your sense of ownership of your growing commitment to helping make this Contest (and the other Contests) run smoothly for us all by taking seriously Greyfox's perceived challenge to your effort, though I also accept his clarification.

Doing that scoring sheet - in real-time - with scratches and all the double-checking of Team's selections, getting and entering results then posting them within minutes - is far more work than I imagined when you and I 'shadowed' Jay Trotter several weeks ago to prepare for these periodic absences of his. I'm not positive I could do a better job than you have done these couple of times - and I thank you for your diligence, in front of and behind the scenes.

FWIW, and if it does help, I think Chris' suggestion is a good one to use any reputable and quick source of Result mutuels (I used Brisnet myself) - the chances of discrepancies will be small. And I hear you, that falling behind in the run up to 'post-time' can be deadly for timing. Nobody's faulting you. We are all grateful.

My turn will come up the next month when Jay Trotter is away again on a Saturday. I hope I do as good a job as you. Thank you for your continued contributions.

Ted

[dirty moose]

Welcome back Ted, hope vacation was good. Shoot me a email when you get a few.

[ldiatone]

so like MNR is back up march 1st. does this mean will have a few of MNR races in the future? :rolleyes:

[dirty moose]

so like MNR is back up march 1st. does this mean will have a few of MNR races in the future? :rolleyes:

I second this!

[horses4courses]

Obviously, this weekend is a washout - hopefully next Saturday's Big Cap card is a good one.
There have not been many SA races in the contest, so far.

[cj]

I second this!

Doubtful since they run at night. Try to wrap things up in a few hours span.

[PaceAdvantage]

Obviously, this weekend is a washout - hopefully next Saturday's Big Cap card is a good one.
There have not been many SA races in the contest, so far.But there have been more Santa Anita races than Aqueduct races...correct?

[mudcat]

so, only 16 of 40 teams are up for the prizes? The rest are playing for what? , or that should be for squat.
just asking a question, I read the rules.

[Ted Craven]

so, only 16 of 40 teams are up for the prizes? The rest are playing for what? , or that should be for squat.
just asking a question, I read the rules.

P.A.C.S points? Bragging rights? The idea of the B Group was to provide an opportunity for 60% of the teams and 75 people to continue playing for another 3 weekends.

2013 PAIHL PACS points: http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1432240&postcount=44

If someone would like to contribute some kind of prizes for the B Group, our team will be gunning for them!

Ted

[Ted Craven]

Please Note: upon reflection, Contest Management (aka me and Jay Trotter) has decided to modify/clarify the P.A.C.S. Points awarded during this year's PAIHL Contest. In order to provide a greater incentive to those 23 teams in the Group B, P.A.C.S. Points will be awarded per the 100+ player column of the PACS POINT SYSTEM (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11810http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11810) sheet instead of the 40 player column. While there are 40 Teams, there are 120 individual players in this Contest.

There are 17 Teams in Group A and 23 Teams in Group B. This means that the Group B Teams will be awarded PACS points for their finish positions from levels 18 through 40, or 510 - 200 points.

Lest anyone think that those final lowly 200 points may be trivial - let me remind everyone that last year, the Top 3 finishers for Player of the Year were all within 125 points of each other!!

Hopefully, this will provide a good incentive for Group B teams to continue to give it their all for the next 3 weekends of the Contest.

Good luck, and skill, to all the Teams!

PACS Point System Sheet --> HERE (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11810http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11810).

Ted

[Greyfox]

In the playoffs some teams are getting "Bonus Points" at the start of play.
I'm on Team Gapfire that has been awarded bonus points.
Just for the record, I am not in favor of them.
All teams should start from a level playing field in playoffs.

Greyfox

[ldiatone]

i guess there is no P.A.I.H.L. in 2015 :(