Sudden Deaths: Baffert and Vets Violated Drug Rules?

[Blenheim]

California Horse Racing Board Rule Book
Article 15. Veterinary Practices

1843. Medication, Drugs and Other Substances.

It shall be the intent of these rules to protect the integrity of horse racing, to guard the health of the horse, and to safeguard the interests of the public and the racing participants through the prohibition or control of all drugs, medications and drug substances foreign to the horse. In this context:

(c) No person other than a licensed veterinarian or animal health technician shall have in his/her possession any drug substance which can be administered to a horse, except such drug substance prescribed by a licensed veterinarian for a specific existing condition of a horse and which is properly labeled.

Report on the Investigation and review of the seven sudden deaths on the Hollywood Park main track of horses trained by Bob Baffert and stabled in Barn 61

Page 1. There is no evidence whatsoever that CHRB rules or regulations have been violated or any improper activity played a part in the sudden deaths.

Page 13. Thyroxine must be administered by a veterinarian, but as in the Baffert situation, thyroxine is often, if not usually, dispensed at the trainer’s request. Per Dr. Latson, the recommended dose is 12mg which by the label is one level teaspoon. How carefully the dosage was followed was not determined. Per Baffert, barn staff including grooms, were involved in administering the thyroxine in feed. The veterinarians conducted no laboratory tests in Baffert’s stable to determine whether any of the horses were hyperthyroid or hypothyroid before treatment. ~ ~ The report indicates, “Thyroxine must be administered by a veterinarian,” but the investigation found, “barn staff including grooms, were involved in administering the thyroxine in feed,” and “How carefully the dosage was followed was not determined.”

Barn staff and grooms in possession of Thyroxine violates 1843(c): No person other than a licensed veterinarian or animal health technician shall have in his/her possession any drug substance which can be administered to a horse, except such drug substance prescribed by a licensed veterinarian for a specific existing condition of a horse and which is properly labeled.

“How carefully the dosage was followed was not determined” violates the “control of all drugs, medications and drug substances” clause found in 1843, “. . . to protect the integrity of horse racing, to guard the health of the horse, and to safeguard the interests of the public and the racing participants through the prohibition or control of all drugs, medications and drug substances foreign to the horse."

“The veterinarians conducted no laboratory tests in Baffert’s stable to determine whether any of the horses were hyperthyroid or hypothyroid before treatment” violates the “specific existing condition of a horse” clause found in 1843 (c), “. . . except such drug substance prescribed by a licensed veterinarian for a specific existing condition of a horse and which is properly labeled."

Based upon the report, Thyroxine was uncontrolled, possessed and administered by unqualified staff and was administered without a specific existing condition. The report indicates repeated violations of CHRB rules 1843 and 1843(c). Additional rule violations are being analyzed.

Based upon these findings, the statement, "There is no evidence whatsoever that CHRB rules or regulations have been violated or any improper activity played a part in the sudden deaths," is not accurate and the Sudden Deaths investigation should be revisited by the CHRB.


This new investigation should include why Thyroxine was uncontrolled and why it was allowed to be administered by barn staff and grooms. The amount of Thyroxine administered by barn staff and grooms should be quantified to determine if the amount given was an overdose that may have led to the death of the seven horses. In addition, the investigation should determine if Thyroxine now being administered is being administered by qualified or unqualified staff and if Thyroxine now being administered is administered with a specific existing condition. Finally, the investigation should determine why Thyroxine was not listed in the toxicology report.

Link to California Horse Racing Board Sudden Death Report:
http://www.chrb.ca.gov/veterinary_reports/baffert_sudden_death_report_final_1121.pdf

Link to California Horse Racing Board Rules:
http://www.chrb.ca.gov/rules_law.html#rule_book

[Mineshaft]

Is this the same stuff as Thyro-L?

[cj]

I find it very troubling that trainers are telling vets what drugs to use and not vice versa. I'm not saying by any means that Baffert is the only one doing it, but it shows how seedy the sport has become.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Is this the same stuff as Thyro-L?

That was my assumption (that it is Thyro-L or similar compounded product) when I first read the report.

[chadk66]

I don't think this is the smoking gun. In 87 when I returned back north from being south all winter, most of my barn was found to be thyroid deficient. They were all put on thyroxin, a powder given to me by the vet. It was perfectly legal in MN for trainers to administer in the food. It's just a powder thrown in with the oats. The vet suspected the feed or hay we were getting down south had some issues that caused this. After a month up north on the thyroxin and different feed I was able to wean them off. All was well after that. I don't know enough about symptoms of overusing thyroxin but I do know that it will have a reverse effect if given too much. Somewhat like vitamins do.

[nijinski]

I've had two dogs on thyroid meds too .

[nearco]

I find it very troubling that trainers are telling vets what drugs to use and not vice versa. I'm not saying by any means that Baffert is the only one doing it, but it shows how seedy the sport has become.
A good pal of mine owns an equine vet practice/clinic. Deals almost exclusively in sport horses and is quite successful. When he first got out of Vet school he spent 6 months at the track, as being a track vet was what he thought he really wanted to do. He left because in his words " I didn't go to years of Vet school to be a waiter". He would show up in the morning and trainers would hand him a list of what they wanted, not the him (the qualified doctor) telling the horseperson what the horse needed.
Absolute joke.

[chadk66]

A good pal of mine owns an equine vet practice/clinic. Deals almost exclusively in sport horses and is quite successful. When he first got out of Vet school he spent 6 months at the track, as being a track vet was what he thought he really wanted to do. He left because in his words " I didn't go to years of Vet school to be a waiter". He would show up in the morning and trainers would hand him a list of what they wanted, not the him (the qualified doctor) telling the horseperson what the horse needed.
Absolute joke.
I can see where that could def. be the situation in some barns. But by all means not all. I used vets as sparingly as I could. No sense making owners pay for stuff they really don't need.

[Mineshaft]

So all they caught Baffert with was some thyroid medicine thats suppose to be given by the vets which the thyroid meds is perfectly legal. Good job CHRB..

[chadk66]

So all they caught Baffert with was some thyroid medicine thats suppose to be given by the vets which the thyroid meds is perfectly legal. Good job CHRB..
I wonder if this wasn't just a bone to throw to the general public by the CHRB. Probably didn't even find the stuff, Baffert probably just decided to go along with it.

[peeptoad]

I find it very troubling that trainers are telling vets what drugs to use and not vice versa. I'm not saying by any means that Baffert is the only one doing it, but it shows how seedy the sport has become.

I totally agree with this...

[Stillriledup]

I don't think this is the smoking gun. In 87 when I returned back north from being south all winter, most of my barn was found to be thyroid deficient. They were all put on thyroxin, a powder given to me by the vet. It was perfectly legal in MN for trainers to administer in the food. It's just a powder thrown in with the oats. The vet suspected the feed or hay we were getting down south had some issues that caused this. After a month up north on the thyroxin and different feed I was able to wean them off. All was well after that. I don't know enough about symptoms of overusing thyroxin but I do know that it will have a reverse effect if given too much. Somewhat like vitamins do.

But if this stuff was the cause of horses dropping dead, isnt that something that would be considered malpractice (even if its not actually a criminal act)? Can a trainer ever lose his license for malpractice? I know if a doctor had 7 patients die mysteriously, he would probably at least have a review to see if he was fit to hold a license. No such criteria in horse racing?

[classhandicapper]

Someone should calculate the odds of 7 horses dropping dead for one trainer in a relatively short period of time if he trains 'X' horses as a random event. My guess is the number is so large, who ever calculates it won't want to type out all the zeros.

[chadk66]

But if this stuff was the cause of horses dropping dead, isnt that something that would be considered malpractice (even if its not actually a criminal act)? Can a trainer ever lose his license for malpractice? I know if a doctor had 7 patients die mysteriously, he would probably at least have a review to see if he was fit to hold a license. No such criteria in horse racing?
You wouldn't get a malpractice suit to stick unless you could prove that thyroxin was lethal and that the vet knew it could or would kill. I can't see that happening. In fact I don't know if you could make a case for it being bad.

[chadk66]

I'm more inclined to believe it's due to being given something that isn't detectable as of yet. And since the CHRB couldn't come up with anything concrete they threw the thyroxin thing at the wall to see if it would stick. Hoping to wash their hands of it.

[nijinski]

Two horses in NY , I just read collapsed , died ,neither from Bafferts barn .
Both between mid October and mid November . Does anyone want to question that ?

It is very disturbing to see the amount of sudden deaths in one barn and I
totally agreed with an investigation , although I never agreed with the
intentional talk .

What bothers me is the how everyone chooses to ignore it when it happens
in much smaller barns .

Well now with all the exposure and disclosure , they will be reported , even if it happens during training . Two within a few months in one area , while
not as often as we see injury . Not exactly extremely rare either ..

RIP Formulaforsuccess and Flight Of Fantasy . :(

[Blenheim]

Thoughtful comments.

~

The drug is Levothyroxine, a synthetic form of the thyroid hormone thyroxine, aka L-thyroxine, T4 and Thyrol-L.

For the unfamiliar (including me), in humans, “The thyroid gland makes hormones that regulate metabolism – chemical processes in the body that affect how we use energy. When the thyroid produces too much hormone, it’s known as hyperthyroidism or overactive thyroid. When this gland doesn’t produce enough hormone, it’s known as hypothyroidism, or underactive thyroid (Parks 2008).

“The veterinarians conducted no laboratory tests in Baffert’s stable to determine whether any of the horses were hyperthyroid or hypothyroid before treatment.” All seven horses were administered Thyroxine.

As indicated in In the Sudden Deaths Report (SDR), “thyroxine is most commonly used by veterinarians to assist weight loss in individual overweight horses especially when they come in from the farm.” Only one of the seven “was returning from a layup for a SF tendinitis.” In the SDR, “Baffert said he had used thyroxine for about 5 years because he thought the medication helped “build up” his horses. Baffert’s comment is surprising since the drug is most commonly used to assist weight loss and has been shown to cause weight loss in horses (Nichols).

Baffert wasn't using Thyroxine for a thyroid problem, he was using the drug to "build up" his horses . . . Thyroxine enhanced performance.

The SDR indicates, “Thyroxine must be administered by a veterinarian, but as in the Baffert situation, thyroxine is often, if not usually, dispensed at the trainer’s request. Per Dr. Latson, the recommended dose is 12mg which by the label is one level teaspoon. How carefully the dosage was followed was not determined. Per Baffert, barn staff including grooms, were involved in administering the thyroxine in feed.”

Rules 1843 and 1843(c) were violated and likely others. The CHRB must account for these violations.

Why was the drug use uncontrolled? Why was Baffert allowed to dispense the drug? Why did unqualified staff administer the drug? What “barn staff” administered the drug? Is Baffert “barn staff”? Is his assistant trainer, Mike Marlowe, “barn staff?” Who were the grooms administering the drug and who authorized them? Was the drug dosage quantified, if not why not? Where were the vets when the drug was being administered? Are there any veterinarians records or any other such records documenting the amount administered, by whom, when and under whose authority, if not why not? Why wasn’t Thyroxine indicated in the toxicology report?

The CHRB investigation has left quite a few questions unanswered, and so has Baffert. For the investigation to be complete, it must provide answers to these questions and more. Can the CHRB be objective? Should the Governor call for an independent investigation into the sudden deaths of seven horses?

FYI, The SDR indicates, “Baffert trained horses have a 9.08 (95% CI 4.37, 18.88; p<0.001) times greater incidence of sudden death during racing or training than horses not trained by Baffert. Examining the 7 sudden deaths over 24 months of FY 11-12 & FY 12-13, the results are even more dramatic.

Looking only at racing sudden deaths for Baffert (2 death, 2512 starts) there is an incidence of 0.80 deaths/1,000 race starts (95% CI 0.10-2.88). Racing sudden deaths for non-Baffert horses (21 deaths, 199,637 starts) has in incidence of 0.11 deaths/1,000 race starts (95% CI 0.07-0.16). Baffert trained horses that experienced sudden death during a race have a 7.57 (95% CI 1.77-32.28; p=0.006) times greater incidence of sudden death than horses not trained by Baffert.

[nijinski]

There are normal thyroid levels also hyper or hypo .
There would need to be a very large amount of Thyroxine given to the horse
over a period of time , due to their weight . to go from hypo to hyper. Did he have a truckload ?
If their levels become abnormally high , they will become agitated .and not likely able to function well . There are physical signs in humans too. The bulging eyes along with the drop in weight .
Could this cause a heart to race . It likely can and at that same point you would be looking at an animal that is showing signs of other abnormalties .
That much so that others would see it and you would need to get care for the animal .

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
The SDR indicates, “Thyroxine must be administered by a veterinarian, but as in the Baffert situation, thyroxine is often, if not usually, dispensed at the trainer’s request. ...

What the SDR actually indicates - and I'm not sure whether the change was intentional or not - but the distinction is not very subtle:

"Thyroxine must be prescribed by a veterinarian, but as in the Baffert situation, thyroxine is often, if not usually, dispensed at the trainer’s request..."

I'm not trying to defend Baffert or excuse the deaths, but there are any number of medications that are prescribed and then administered by "staff" - clenbuterol, bute, banamine paste, acepromazine tabs, the list goes on and on and on and on. The same way that many people have medicines that need to be prescribed by a doctor, but they don't require a physician to physically administer them.

So basically, given the length of the diatribe against the fact that the staff was administering Thyro-L - a common event at tracks all over the country - and that complaint hinged upon the editing of the actual statement in such a way that it bolstered the gist of your main complaint here - I just can't help but to offer this rebuttal.

It says nothing about vets administering the drug. The drug was administered, in terms of who actually delivered the drug, as is acceptable, and is are many others. Perhaps there is some debate over whether each recipient of the drug was prescribed the medication, but that doesn't seem to be the complaint that you are lodging.

[cj]

Baffert wasn't using Thyroxine for a thyroid problem, he was using the drug to "build up" his horses . . . Thyroxine enhanced performance.


This is the stuff I find troubling. Why was Baffert using any drug as a matter of routine on all horses. It is ridiculous. And why are vets just giving him what he wants? That is more ridiculous.

[outofthebox]

This is the stuff I find troubling. Why was Baffert using any drug as a matter of routine on all horses. It is ridiculous. And why are vets just giving him what he wants? That is more ridiculous.I know this sounds troubling CJ. Unfortunately in todays game, this is quite routine. I personally have only two horses in my barn on 20 that are on Thyro-L. Their are many trainers that use thyro-l and clenbuterol on a daily basis for their entire stable. And about your comment on why the vets give what the trainers want, well it's to keep the their clients happy.

[Blenheim]

What the SDR actually indicates - and I'm not sure whether the change was intentional or not - but the distinction is not very subtle:

"Thyroxine must be prescribed by a veterinarian, but as in the Baffert situation, thyroxine is often, if not usually, dispensed at the trainer’s request..."

I'm not trying to defend Baffert or excuse the deaths, but there are any number of medications that are prescribed and then administered by "staff" - clenbuterol, bute, banamine paste, acepromazine tabs, the list goes on and on and on and on. The same way that many people have medicines that need to be prescribed by a doctor, but they don't require a physician to physically administer them.

So basically, given the length of the diatribe against the fact that the staff was administering Thyro-L - a common event at tracks all over the country - and that complaint hinged upon the editing of the actual statement in such a way that it bolstered the gist of your main complaint here - I just can't help but to offer this rebuttal.

It says nothing about vets administering the drug. The drug was administered, in terms of who actually delivered the drug, as is acceptable, and is are many others. Perhaps there is some debate over whether each recipient of the drug was prescribed the medication, but that doesn't seem to be the complaint that you are lodging.

I stand corrected and the SDR is as you have written. I am thankful someone is reading the SDR and my posts in detail. The mistake was not intentional.
~
On page one, the SDR indicates, “There is no evidence whatsoever that CHRB rules or regulations have been violated or any improper activity played a part in the sudden deaths. It is my contention this statement is not accurate, CHRB rules 1843 and 1843(c) were violated. Thyroxine was uncontrolled, possessed by person[s] other than veterinarian or animal health technician, and was administered without a specific existing condition.

[Stillriledup]

Two horses in NY , I just read collapsed , died ,neither from Bafferts barn .
Both between mid October and mid November . Does anyone want to question that ?

It is very disturbing to see the amount of sudden deaths in one barn and I
totally agreed with an investigation , although I never agreed with the
intentional talk .

What bothers me is the how everyone chooses to ignore it when it happens
in much smaller barns .

Well now with all the exposure and disclosure , they will be reported , even if it happens during training . Two within a few months in one area , while
not as often as we see injury . Not exactly extremely rare either ..

RIP Formulaforsuccess and Flight Of Fantasy . :(

We need a poster boy for sudden deaths. I think we found one.

[Blenheim]

After further thought, If only a veterinarian or animal health technician is allowed to possess Thyroxine, they are the only ones allowed to administer Thyroxine. If Baffert staff and grooms can't possess it, they surely can't administer it. No doubt you've made this determination.


That being said, everything I've written,stands. I look forward to any additional mistakes you might find

~

I'm takin' a look see if any rules relating to documentation of the administration of the drug may have been violated.

[johnhannibalsmith]

After further thought, If only a veterinarian or animal health technician is allowed to possess Thyroxine, they are the only ones allowed to administer Thyroxine. If Baffert staff and grooms can't possess it, they surely can't administer it. No doubt you've made this determination.


That being said, everything I've written,stands. I look forward to any additional mistakes you might find

...

Why do you think that Thyro-L can only be possessed by a vet or animal health technician?

Sincere question - I'm not seeing what in your posts infers that and it certainly was never my experience that there was ever any regulation about possession of the substance as long as it was lawfully prescribed.

I must be missing something in the documents to suggest this. Generally speaking, medicines administered in feed aren't prescribed if they aren't expecting the barn staff to administer it. I can only speak to my experiences, but I think my vets would have laughed a hearty chuckle at the notion that they were to show up to mix the feed with Thyro-L every night.

[chadk66]

I don't believe they are the only ones who can posses it. They issue a prescription and hand the can to the trainer. The trainer gives it to the groom and says "give this horse one scoop a day". That's how it's done anywhere I've ever been. There really isn't a reason to have a vet administer it. And I don't think there's any performance enhancement from the stuff regardless what Baffert thinks.

[chadk66]

The horses I had were all hypothyroid. They were way down on energy, didn't eat well, wouldn't shed their winter coats because they felt cold all the time even when it was very warm out. Thirty days on thyro-L and they were back to their old selves again and were taken off the stuff. And remained their normal selves thereafter.

[Greyfox]

I And I don't think there's any performance enhancement from the stuff regardless what Baffert thinks.

And in your very next post you gave examples of horses who had energy improvements on that stuff.
Improved energy levels = Improved performance from where I stand.

[nijinski]

This study came about due to the large referral of horses sent there (Perdue) .in Atrial Fibrillation .
Any Vets prescribing Thyroid supplements and trainers administering it , have a responsibility to monitor the thyroid levels of these horses.

The findings in Indiana
To gain a better appreciation as to whether excessive T4 supplementation is a concern in Indiana
racehorses, a random, anonymous group of 50 post‐race blood samples was submitted for T4
determination.
During a Standardbred racing meet in the summer of 2010, blood was collected from 1 or more horses
per race within 3 hours of finishing. It was collecting into separator tubes, spun and frozen within 12
hours of collection. Serum remained frozen until analysis. Serum thyroxine concentrations were
determined by the Cornell AHDC Endocrinology laboratory.
The results revealed that the average T4 value was 2.22 μg/dL. Three of the 50 samples had T4
concentrations higher than the laboratory’s normal reference range (1.5 ‐ 4.5 μg/dL) at 4.89, 5.38, and
5.34 μg/dL. Because horses in race training tend to have lower T4 concentrations when compared to
sedentary horses, these high values strongly suggest that the horses are receiving excessive exogenous
T4 supplementation. Finding 3 such samples from a set of 50 raises the concern that thyroid hormone
over supplementation is a pervasive practice in race horses

[Grits]

You wouldn't get a malpractice suit to stick unless you could prove that thyroxin was lethal and that the vet knew it could or would kill. I can't see that happening. In fact I don't know if you could make a case for it being bad.

I'm sorry, I got a feeling you could get it to stick, so you may want to reconsider the seriousness of medication overdose and thyroid disease/dysfunction. Are you fully understanding it? Obviously, neither the CHRB, BAFFERT, his unfortunate veterinarian, or his barn help that was simply doing as they were told is. And the CHRB's, Rick Arthur, DVM? Well, he's not appearing too bright either.

You can't tell me that every horse in a trainer's barn is hypo or hyper thyroid when its even questionable that this is a problem for horses. This, gentlemen, is bull .... in the same manner it would be if we were all given a drug without determining whether we had just cause for it--by first doing a blood panel and ruling out other conditions. This is nuts.

NJ has offered information--which she and I, sometimes try and do. So, before, typing more questions and opinions, I believe I'd read a bit from those doing the long term testing at vet schools--those who do know, unlike a trainer.. who is assuming and loading up his horses. And, unlike a board that reads like its playing dumb. (Maybe pass it on to that crew.)

Thyroid medication, indeed, can be lethal if not, only administered correctly, but also MONITORED. It can take months to regulate the dosage in humans. My son takes it every day, and his levels are checked each six months.

A horse, a living, breathing being, and an athletic one at that, should be treated in the same manner, with the same level of concern, same monitoring. However, there's more to the entire deal...its questionable in horses, period. And I'm sorry but BAFFERT is looking more and more like a witty, folksy, silver haired chemist instead of a horseman.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=746140

--The implications of low thyroid hormone concentrations--

"There are no scientific studies to support the assertion that low thyroid hormone concentrations negatively impact the health of horses or that supplementation is necessary," says Nicholas Frank, DVM, PhD, an associate professor at the University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine.

And Franks is not alone in this view. Betta Breuhaus, MS, DVM, PhD, an associate professor at the College of Veterinary Medicine at North Carolina State University, addressed the American Association of Equine Practitioners and explained, "Horses with clinical signs or syndromes traditionally associated with hypothyroidism often have normal thyroid function.

"Thyroid hormone status," adds Breuhaus, "should be carefully evaluated, and other potential endocrine or metabolic problems should be ruled out before a horse is placed on long-term thyroid hormone supplementation."

Also a report on it from the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/sports/despite-the-evidence-trainers-deny-a-doping-problem.html?_r=0

[maclr11]

Much Ado About Nothing

The thyroid medication happens in every barn in North America
Just replace the drug with some other drug trainers think improve performance.

Do you honestly think that many of these horses other than the super stars have individual programs.
Each trainer has a program and if a horse fits in it, success occurs. Otherwise the stock is culled.

I guarantee you Asmussen, Pletcher, Baffert, Ness has horses he's barely seen. He puts his name on the program manages his assistants, finds races, deals with owners and manages the good horses.

Look at all the things that are vet prescriped as Hannibalsmith said and are given by barn staff
Vet bills are high enough, you cant ask for the vet to come everyday at feed time to give medication to improve performance. Clenbuterol, bute, milk of magnesia or any supplements the horses get in their feed.
The people who get up in arms about this are people who have never been on a backside.

Yes Baffert had a bad batch of something go through his barn. Yes it was not good for that to happen. But look it has stopped in his barn, he obviously fixed the problem, and has replaced it with something similar but probably safer.
These are incredibly expensive animals, and these people as much as you make them out to be animals still care about the horse, but they also care about winning and supporting a family, an ex-wife etc. etc.
Baffert wins at a higher rate than the norm because his program works, he gets the best clientele and good horses and wins races.
No different than any of the other high volume barns in North America.

They wouldn't have gave the drug if they thought it would kill horses. Baffert does things to make his horses run faster and longer, which is the goal of every trainer. They cant run faster and harder if they are dead. There is hardly a trainer in the world who would not want to be in Baffert's shoes.

Dr. Arthur who is a brilliant vet, and he found nothing that compared in the horses, if he found something truly criminal he would have spoke up. Instead all the horses were on a medication that I bet 1/3 of the Santa Anita backside was on in some form or another. Let's be realistic, a thyroid medication like this, that is legal is not the biggest problem in racing.

[nijinski]

Much Ado About Nothing

The thyroid medication happens in every barn in North America
Just replace the drug with some other drug trainers think improve performance.

Do you honestly think that many of these horses other than the super stars have individual programs.
Each trainer has a program and if a horse fits in it, success occurs. Otherwise the stock is culled.

I guarantee you Asmussen, Pletcher, Baffert, Ness has horses he's barely seen. He puts his name on the program manages his assistants, finds races, deals with owners and manages the good horses.

Look at all the things that are vet prescriped as Hannibalsmith said and are given by barn staff
Vet bills are high enough, you cant ask for the vet to come everyday at feed time to give medication to improve performance. Clenbuterol, bute, milk of magnesia or any supplements the horses get in their feed.
The people who get up in arms about this are people who have never been on a backside.

Yes Baffert had a bad batch of something go through his barn. Yes it was not good for that to happen. But look it has stopped in his barn, he obviously fixed the problem, and has replaced it with something similar but probably safer.
These are incredibly expensive animals, and these people as much as you make them out to be animals still care about the horse, but they also care about winning and supporting a family, an ex-wife etc. etc.
Baffert wins at a higher rate than the norm because his program works, he gets the best clientele and good horses and wins races.
No different than any of the other high volume barns in North America.

They wouldn't have gave the drug if they thought it would kill horses. Baffert does things to make his horses run faster and longer, which is the goal of every trainer. They cant run faster and harder if they are dead. There is hardly a trainer in the world who would not want to be in Baffert's shoes.

Dr. Arthur who is a brilliant vet, and he found nothing that compared in the horses, if he found something truly criminal he would have spoke up. Instead all the horses were on a medication that I bet 1/3 of the Santa Anita backside was on in some form or another. Let's be realistic, a thyroid medication like this, that is legal is not the biggest problem in racing.

I agree with you for the most part and especially regarding intent .I don't think a reputable trainer would do something like this with knowledge a horse would collapse and die .
I brought up the study only to point out that something did put some of these horses into a persistent arrhythmia , that would be the only reason they were referred to the University . Therefore I strongly believe they needed the monitoring , Horses don't have the same rhythm we do , they have AF often and convert back to normal without intervention . The referred standardbreds obviously did not. Could have been one of many of the permitted meds .Even certain antibiotics are listed with pharmacists not to be given to anyone with abnormal heartbeats .
Fit young horses going into cardiac arrest is not the norm , Sadly we've seen
it with young male athletes too. That's likely genetic .
Bottom line IMO is for the horses on meds and supplements to have a
plan of monitoring in place if they are in training or racing .

[Grits]

Much Ado About Nothing

The people who get up in arms about this are people who have never been on a backside.
You're sadly mistaken, seven horses dropping dead in one stellar trainer's barn is no small achievement...read the stats presented, and the material linked, which you obviously have not done, in your haste to defend. And understand, there are plenty, here, myself included who have been on the backside in the morning, at workout time, feed time, in the quiet of afternoon nap time, etc, etc.

You work for Baffert or Arthur? You type as one who's launching a promo for the two. Both have appeared brilliant before. Good luck with this concerted effort.

Yes Baffert had a bad batch of something go through his barn. Yes it was not good for that to happen. But look it has stopped in his barn, he obviously fixed the problem, and has replaced it with something similar but probably safer.
This one's ALWAYS priceless. Its rolled out a whole lot! :lol:

These are incredibly expensive animals, and these people as much as you make them out to be animals still care about the horse, but they also care about winning and supporting a family, an ex-wife etc. etc.

And this is not the responsibility of his incredibly expensive horses or anyone here. I'm sorry but your post is poorly thought out, and sadly, you'd come up extremely short in a formal hearing.

[classhandicapper]

I think we are wasting time even discussing the thyroid medication beyond why a trainer can ask a vet to prescribe it for all his horses and get it.

The probability that this was a random event is astronomical. I don't think it was thyroid medication that did it, bit it WAS SOMETHING. All this report says is that they weren't able to figure out what it was, find any rules broken, etc..

It's hard to accuse someone of something when there is no evidence at all, but I can do math and am capable of common sense. These horses were either given something that was no longer in their systems or that can't be detected yet or became contaminated by something similar that caused the deaths.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I think we are wasting time even discussing the thyroid medication beyond why a trainer can ask a vet to prescribe it for all his horses and get it.

The probability that this was a random event is astronomical. I don't think it was thyroid medication that did it, bit it WAS SOMETHING. All this report says is that they weren't able to figure out what it was, find any rules broken, etc..

It's hard to accuse someone of something when there is no evidence at all, but I can do math and am capable of common sense. These horses were either given something that was no longer in their systems or that can't be detected yet or became contaminated by something similar that caused the deaths.


Summed up nicely, indeed.

[chadk66]

And in your very next post you gave examples of horses who had energy improvements on that stuff.
Improved energy levels = Improved performance from where I stand.
see there's the crossroads we come to over any and all medication. the horses after being on it came back to their "normal" energy levels. thus no performance enhancement over their normal god given amount. Let's say you go to the doctor because you feel like hell and can't get off the couch. He finds you have some ailment and gives you something for it. three days later your back to your normal self and back to work. Are you juiced and shouldn't be at work? I'd guess not.

[chadk66]

This study came about due to the large referral of horses sent there (Perdue) .in Atrial Fibrillation .
Any Vets prescribing Thyroid supplements and trainers administering it , have a responsibility to monitor the thyroid levels of these horses.

The findings in Indiana
To gain a better appreciation as to whether excessive T4 supplementation is a concern in Indiana
racehorses, a random, anonymous group of 50 post‐race blood samples was submitted for T4
determination.
During a Standardbred racing meet in the summer of 2010, blood was collected from 1 or more horses
per race within 3 hours of finishing. It was collecting into separator tubes, spun and frozen within 12
hours of collection. Serum remained frozen until analysis. Serum thyroxine concentrations were
determined by the Cornell AHDC Endocrinology laboratory.
The results revealed that the average T4 value was 2.22 μg/dL. Three of the 50 samples had T4
concentrations higher than the laboratory’s normal reference range (1.5 ‐ 4.5 μg/dL) at 4.89, 5.38, and
5.34 μg/dL. Because horses in race training tend to have lower T4 concentrations when compared to
sedentary horses, these high values strongly suggest that the horses are receiving excessive exogenous
T4 supplementation. Finding 3 such samples from a set of 50 raises the concern that thyroid hormone
over supplementation is a pervasive practice in race horses
things like this are excellent. but these results are rather trivial because they don't have a sample from these horses at rest. If they had that then you could draw some very solid conclusions from it.

[chadk66]

I'm sorry, I got a feeling you could get it to stick, so you may want to reconsider the seriousness of medication overdose and thyroid disease/dysfunction. Are you fully understanding it? Obviously, neither the CHRB, BAFFERT, his unfortunate veterinarian, or his barn help that was simply doing as they were told is. And the CHRB's, Rick Arthur, DVM? Well, he's not appearing too bright either.

You can't tell me that every horse in a trainer's barn is hypo or hyper thyroid when its even questionable that this is a problem for horses. This, gentlemen, is bull .... in the same manner it would be if we were all given a drug without determining whether we had just cause for it--by first doing a blood panel and ruling out other conditions. This is nuts.

NJ has offered information--which she and I, sometimes try and do. So, before, typing more questions and opinions, I believe I'd read a bit from those doing the long term testing at vet schools--those who do know, unlike a trainer.. who is assuming and loading up his horses. And, unlike a board that reads like its playing dumb. (Maybe pass it on to that crew.)

Thyroid medication, indeed, can be lethal if not, only administered correctly, but also MONITORED. It can take months to regulate the dosage in humans. My son takes it every day, and his levels are checked each six months.

A horse, a living, breathing being, and an athletic one at that, should be treated in the same manner, with the same level of concern, same monitoring. However, there's more to the entire deal...its questionable in horses, period. And I'm sorry but BAFFERT is looking more and more like a witty, folksy, silver haired chemist instead of a horseman.

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=746140

--The implications of low thyroid hormone concentrations--

"There are no scientific studies to support the assertion that low thyroid hormone concentrations negatively impact the health of horses or that supplementation is necessary," says Nicholas Frank, DVM, PhD, an associate professor at the University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine.

And Franks is not alone in this view. Betta Breuhaus, MS, DVM, PhD, an associate professor at the College of Veterinary Medicine at North Carolina State University, addressed the American Association of Equine Practitioners and explained, "Horses with clinical signs or syndromes traditionally associated with hypothyroidism often have normal thyroid function.

"Thyroid hormone status," adds Breuhaus, "should be carefully evaluated, and other potential endocrine or metabolic problems should be ruled out before a horse is placed on long-term thyroid hormone supplementation."

Also a report on it from the NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/sports/despite-the-evidence-trainers-deny-a-doping-problem.html?_r=0
If your insinuating that I made the statement that all horses are either hypo or hyper you'd be completely wrong. You can't point out where I said that. I simply told you one situation that happened to me. It was an isolated situation that was resolved in roughly 30 days and was caused by feed. After that incident I commonly checked suspect horses over the next few years and never found another instance of thyroid issues in any of my horses. I believe it's extremely rare. And I also pointed out that using it on horses that didn't need it or over medicating horses that needed it would no doubt cause issues just like over use of regular vitamins in horses or people. you need to stop reading stuff into what people write.

[chadk66]

Much Ado About Nothing

The thyroid medication happens in every barn in North America
Just replace the drug with some other drug trainers think improve performance.

Do you honestly think that many of these horses other than the super stars have individual programs.
Each trainer has a program and if a horse fits in it, success occurs. Otherwise the stock is culled.

I guarantee you Asmussen, Pletcher, Baffert, Ness has horses he's barely seen. He puts his name on the program manages his assistants, finds races, deals with owners and manages the good horses.

Look at all the things that are vet prescriped as Hannibalsmith said and are given by barn staff
Vet bills are high enough, you cant ask for the vet to come everyday at feed time to give medication to improve performance. Clenbuterol, bute, milk of magnesia or any supplements the horses get in their feed.
The people who get up in arms about this are people who have never been on a backside.

Yes Baffert had a bad batch of something go through his barn. Yes it was not good for that to happen. But look it has stopped in his barn, he obviously fixed the problem, and has replaced it with something similar but probably safer.
These are incredibly expensive animals, and these people as much as you make them out to be animals still care about the horse, but they also care about winning and supporting a family, an ex-wife etc. etc.
Baffert wins at a higher rate than the norm because his program works, he gets the best clientele and good horses and wins races.
No different than any of the other high volume barns in North America.

They wouldn't have gave the drug if they thought it would kill horses. Baffert does things to make his horses run faster and longer, which is the goal of every trainer. They cant run faster and harder if they are dead. There is hardly a trainer in the world who would not want to be in Baffert's shoes.

Dr. Arthur who is a brilliant vet, and he found nothing that compared in the horses, if he found something truly criminal he would have spoke up. Instead all the horses were on a medication that I bet 1/3 of the Santa Anita backside was on in some form or another. Let's be realistic, a thyroid medication like this, that is legal is not the biggest problem in racing.
your first two paragraphs are dead on the nuts. the second is exactly what I've been saying since coming on this board. Too many trainers have a certain program they stick to because they don't know any better. They feed every horse the same and the ones that benefit from that particular setup stay in the barn those that don't leave the barn and go to another and find the other program is better for their particular needs. The fact that so many trainers refuse to alter their program for each and every horse is what has puzzled me from the very beginning. It simply makes no sense.

[Mineshaft]

Its Thryol-L people its perfectly legal move on. You are grasping at straws. The vet gives it to the trainers, the trainers puts it in the feed, the horse eats the feed and starts to feel better. Its not a PED. Move on for Christ sake.

[Mineshaft]

Much Ado About Nothing

The thyroid medication happens in every barn in North America
Just replace the drug with some other drug trainers think improve performance.

Do you honestly think that many of these horses other than the super stars have individual programs.
Each trainer has a program and if a horse fits in it, success occurs. Otherwise the stock is culled.

I guarantee you Asmussen, Pletcher, Baffert, Ness has horses he's barely seen. He puts his name on the program manages his assistants, finds races, deals with owners and manages the good horses.

Look at all the things that are vet prescriped as Hannibalsmith said and are given by barn staff
Vet bills are high enough, you cant ask for the vet to come everyday at feed time to give medication to improve performance. Clenbuterol, bute, milk of magnesia or any supplements the horses get in their feed.
The people who get up in arms about this are people who have never been on a backside.

Yes Baffert had a bad batch of something go through his barn. Yes it was not good for that to happen. But look it has stopped in his barn, he obviously fixed the problem, and has replaced it with something similar but probably safer.
These are incredibly expensive animals, and these people as much as you make them out to be animals still care about the horse, but they also care about winning and supporting a family, an ex-wife etc. etc.
Baffert wins at a higher rate than the norm because his program works, he gets the best clientele and good horses and wins races.
No different than any of the other high volume barns in North America.

They wouldn't have gave the drug if they thought it would kill horses. Baffert does things to make his horses run faster and longer, which is the goal of every trainer. They cant run faster and harder if they are dead. There is hardly a trainer in the world who would not want to be in Baffert's shoes.

Dr. Arthur who is a brilliant vet, and he found nothing that compared in the horses, if he found something truly criminal he would have spoke up. Instead all the horses were on a medication that I bet 1/3 of the Santa Anita backside was on in some form or another. Let's be realistic, a thyroid medication like this, that is legal is not the biggest problem in racing.






Post of the year.....

[Grits]

If your insinuating that I made the statement that all horses are either hypo or hyper you'd be completely wrong. You can't point out where I said that.

You're right I can't point that out because not anywhere in my post did I say any such thing. For heaven sake, improve your damn reading skills before quoting me. .... Still, somehow, the research is bringing to light the fact that horses don't need thyroid medication. Most assuredly, all in one barn.

So, gentlemen, let's continue feeding this and anything else we can into 'em. Its all good.. just hope another rash of 'em don't drop dead for some unexplained reason since this kind of activity is always outstanding for the sport.

[Stillriledup]

Its Thryol-L people its perfectly legal move on. You are grasping at straws. The vet gives it to the trainers, the trainers puts it in the feed, the horse eats the feed and starts to feel better. Its not a PED. Move on for Christ sake.

That's the problem with the game, "moving on" instead of coming down hard on the cheats and criminals.

[Mineshaft]

That's the problem with the game, "moving on" instead of coming down hard on the cheats and criminals.



what part of that didn't you understand? Its perfectly LEGAL to administer Thryo-L. Its legal its within the rules of racing. Do you get that now?

[cj]

what part of that didn't you understand? Its perfectly LEGAL to administer Thryo-L. Its legal its within the rules of racing. Do you get that now?

Yeah, just another example of using animals for drug testing. Nice idea, though in this case no real benefit to humans.

[Grits]

Yeah, its legal. ... So are narcotics, but one doesn't indiscriminately dole them out each day do they? Putting everyone, or in this case, "every horse in the barn" on them do they? Lots of things are legal, but that doesn't make them necessary, nor does it make them right. Especially when you're placing it into the gut of an animal because you're convinced, somehow, that its beneficial to them.

Please, read the protocol. Here, I can help you, and note the fine print.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16497

Its synthetic thyroid hormone, the exact same medication used in treatment for humans who have thyroid disease. In most every case, when determined by blood panel, its given for life, just as it is in humans. This is not a 30 to 60 day powder you add to the feed tub until you see "improvement", and then toss it. Thyroid glands do not miraculously correct their hormone production, after a few weeks of dosing. This does not happen.

Is there a reason you're unable to figure out that its a very strong possibility that every horse in Baffert's barn doesn't have a thyroid problem? Particularly when given the research showing this is not even remotely close to possible.

Speaking of throwing something at the wall... it probably ain't the best choice for the "tainted feed" problems in the barn either--thyroid med, that is. This one's priceless.

The whole deal rings just as lasix does, "hey man, he improved, we should give it to 'em from now on. Put some in his feed tub every evening".

What a joke. Stop acting as though everyone who cares about this sport, other than yourself, is stupid. Someone has to be held accountable for these horses and their well being--looks like it ain't happening, though, in SoCal.

[chadk66]

Yeah, its legal. ... So are narcotics, but one doesn't indiscriminately dole them out each day do they? Putting everyone, or in this case, "every horse in the barn" on them do they? Lots of things are legal, but that doesn't make them necessary, nor does it make them right. Especially when you're placing it into the gut of an animal because you're convinced, somehow, that its beneficial to them.

Please, read the protocol. Here, I can help you, and note the fine print.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16497

Its synthetic thyroid hormone, the exact same medication used in treatment for humans who have thyroid disease. In most every case, when determined by blood panel, its given for life, just as it is in humans. This is not a 30 to 60 day powder you add to the feed tub until you see "improvement", and then toss it. Thyroid glands do not miraculously correct their hormone production, after a few weeks of dosing. This does not happen.

Is there a reason you're unable to figure out that its a very strong possibility that every horse in Baffert's barn doesn't have a thyroid problem? Particularly when given the research showing this is not even remotely close to possible.

Speaking of throwing something at the wall... it probably ain't the best choice for the "tainted feed" problems in the barn either--thyroid med, that is. This one's priceless.

The whole deal rings just as lasix does, "hey man, he improved, we should give it to 'em from now on. Put some in his feed tub every evening".

What a joke. Stop acting as though everyone who cares about this sport, other than yourself, is stupid. Someone has to be held accountable for these horses and their well being--looks like it ain't happening, though, in SoCal.
I'm not sure whether to laugh at this rant or just dismiss it as another conspiracy theory.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Yes, let's all agree that misuse of the substance is bad and was probably happening and it should not.

But the poster was responding to the assertion that the "game" should come down hard on the "cheats and criminals".

I know it is satisfying to dispense justice to those that seem to be in need of some, but it still has to be just to be dignified and decent justice.

Hopefully there can be some attention paid to how certain substances, like Thyro-L, is used, or in this case, misused. But, between the call to come down hard on the "cheats and criminals" without any cause to actually do so - plus - the outright manufacture of a case against the barn staff and CHRB predicated on the editing of one word in a multi-sentence paragraph that was otherwise so intact one can only assume that it was cut and paste (save for the most important word) as to support the case which otherwise has no merit, this is hardly any sort of justice.

If the problem is the improbable nature of these deaths, then why not tend to that? Nothing herein has done so and the rest of what has been bandied about only further separates the problem from the solution as near as I can tell. I'd like to see justice for those deaths as much as anyone, but the bulk of this thread has been anything but just and seemingly little to do with the deaths. It's about wanting to see Baffert pay, regardless of the actual case against him, and wanting to rip at the thorough and inept CHRB, which is most certainly, thoroughly inept.

I get the frustration, but hopefully those of us that feel regulatory bodies have trouble appropriately dispensing justice can hold ourselves to a higher standard when we attempt it.

[Stillriledup]

what part of that didn't you understand? Its perfectly LEGAL to administer Thryo-L. Its legal its within the rules of racing. Do you get that now?

My comments have nothing to do with Thryo L. Im talking about getting rid of the cheats and criminals.

[cj]

I'm not sure whether to laugh at this rant or just dismiss it as another conspiracy theory.

I'd love to hear what you are laughing about, or know if you even read the link.

[Blenheim]

Why do you think that Thyro-L can only be possessed by a vet or animal health technician?

Sincere question - I'm not seeing what in your posts infers that and it certainly was never my experience that there was ever any regulation about possession of the substance as long as it was lawfully prescribed.

I must be missing something in the documents to suggest this. Generally speaking, medicines administered in feed aren't prescribed if they aren't expecting the barn staff to administer it. I can only speak to my experiences, but I think my vets would have laughed a hearty chuckle at the notion that they were to show up to mix the feed with Thyro-L every night.

Thoughtful comments.
I appreciate all those advocating for the protection of the horse and the improvement of the sport. We must be unrelenting.

~

JHS,

You are missing something. You did not respond to the statement or rules. I'll post them both here again.

CHRB statement: There is no evidence whatsoever that CHRB rules or regulations have been violated or any improper activity played a part in the sudden deaths.

CHRB rules: Article 15. Veterinary Practices 1843. Medication Drugs and Other Substances.

It shall be the intent of these rules to protect the integrity of horse racing, to guard the health of the horse, and to safeguard the interests of the public and the racing participants through the prohibition or control of all drugs, medications and drug substances foreign to the horse. In this context:

(c) No person other than a licensed veterinarian or animal health technician shall have in his/her possession any drug substance which can be administered to a horse, except such drug substance prescribed by a licensed veterinarian for a specific existing condition of a horse and which is properly labeled.

It is my contention that the statement in the report is not accurate, CHRB rules 1843 and 1843(c) were violated. Thyroxine was uncontrolled, possessed by person[s] other than veterinarian or animal health technician, and was administered without a specific existing condition.

Please respond.

~

The rules are in place to protect the horses and horse racing. If the rules aren't followed anyone and everyone will be handling drugs and administering them when they want for reasons unrelated to the purpose of the drug - such is the case withThyroxine and likely many other drugs.

I'm no expert but I read the sudden death report, knew right away something was amiss. With all the science and technology available in this modern world, you're gonna tell me you can't figure out why those horses died? I ain't buying it. I have no doubt the rules were broken, the question is why the statement by the CHRB? No doubt there are questions unanswered, I'll post them here again.

Why was the drug use uncontrolled? Why was Baffert allowed to dispense the drug? Why did unqualified staff administer the drug? What “barn staff” administered the drug? Is Baffert “barn staff”? Is his assistant trainer, Mike Marlowe, “barn staff?” Who were the grooms administering the drug and who authorized them? Was the drug dosage quantified, if not why not? Where were the vets when the drug was being administered? Are there any veterinarians records or any other such records documenting the amount administered, by whom, when and under whose authority, if not why not? Why wasn’t Thyroxine indicated in the toxicology report?

Why didn't the investigation ask these fundamental questions? Is the integrity of the investigation hurt by not asking these questions? You bet it is. If they had asked these questions, would the results of the investigation be different? I think so, likely they would have found, as has been suggested in some of the posts in this thread, drug use on the backside is rampant and out of control - all types of drugs are being dispensed by countless veterinarians at the whims and requests of the trainers; its a racket and there are no checks and balances. An objective inquiry would have opened up a can. This inquiry, thus far, has kept a lid on it.

The sudden deaths investigation must be revisited by an objective board supplemented with the power of subpoena.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
(c) No person other than a licensed veterinarian or animal health technician shall have in his/her possession any drug substance which can be administered to a horse, except such drug substance prescribed by a licensed veterinarian for a specific existing condition of a horse and which is properly labeled.
...

Let me just preface by saying that I don't want to get into any sort of clash personally with you. I respect the concern and share it. My only interest in the whole discussion, really, is hopefully getting to the bottom of the actual problem and doing it fairly.

I agree with the underlying concern here. I am very skeptical about the entire scenario. Fortunately I needn't rely on my intuition to know that something stinks because people far more competent at analyzing probabilities and the like have given my opinion on the matter ample cover and I can feel comfortable finding it borderline unfathomable that this pattern could be the work of plausible, if unlikely statistical chance.

Also, I'm indifferent about Mr. Baffert. I recognize what he brings to the game and think that is all well and good. However, don't think that I'm some kind of fan. As far as the CHRB goes - well, they've proven themselves to me to be little more than a weird political dog and pony show. I'm not sure that there was a whole lot more that they could reasonably be expected to do in this case in terms of actually finding the cause and addressing it, but they don't inspire confidence in me in general.

Now that all that disclaimer stuff is out of the way... :)

I'll agree that there was likely a violation on the clause referring to the fact that a medication must be prescribed for a specific existing condition.

But really... I'm just not sure that transgression of getting Thyro-L for multiple horses (or EVERY horse as the case may be) without sufficient justification is cause for utter outrage.

Sure, there is no denying that on that point, the spirit of the rule, if not the rule itself, has been breached. I believe the CHRB attempted in a clumsy way to pre-emptively address that reality. Unfortunately, clenbuterol is prescribed without scoping every horse that gets it. Bute tabs are prescribed without doing a full clinical exam for lameness or soreness on every horse that gets it. Criminy, the most prevalent raceday treatment around, Lasix, is very likely dispensed and administered without any actual diagnosis in many cases. That's not the biggest secret in racing.

My point being, it may not be exactly right, and may in fact be a violation, but it is a regular event. We can debate up and down if that's right or wrong, but in the end, I think we lose sight of what the real problem is - the deaths of these horses.

I tend to believe that the Thyro-L is at best a scapegoat and at worst an outright red herring that will only get those that want the truth, as well as the consequences, farther away from it.

Trying to hang either Baffert or the CHRB on that clause of the provision would essentially give cause to hang almost anyone on every backside. So, while to the letter of the law, you may not be wrong on that point, again, I just do not think that you are attempting to punish the right evil here and to a horsemen, it would be a bit of a scary proposition to think that everything requiring a label needed to be accompanied with a diagnosis that justifies it when you consider the run of the mill NSAIDS and analgesics that are used.

Sure, maybe we can shift the debate into reforming policies that deal with the widespread use of those substances as well. But again, off the track of the problem here, in my opinion.

I think what could best be taken from your objection and what I acknowledge within that objection to be warranted in my opinion - and from the awkwardness of the CHRB's approach to this portion of the objection - is that they maybe could do a better job at delineating which prescribed medications should be regulated better and differentiate between having a bottle of bute tabs and a bottle of Thyro-L. I do think that there is a worthwhile gripe to the idea of using the medicine as the report implies - as though it were a supplement - instead of a prescribed medicine.

Unfortunately, the only way you'll probably ever know if the rule were being followed is if this same event happens and we are looking at every chemical in a carcass. So, instead, I think we'd be better served in the context of this debate trying to minimize the number of times that we need to even worry about interrogating the barn to ascertain every chemical and food delivered that be a clue, as opposed to hanging on a fragmented clause of a loosely if ever enforced rule to satisfy our dismay with this scenario.


EDITED to note: I'm sorry that turned into an entire chapter. I didn't mean to do it. But I don't want to be unclear and try to avoid giving the wrong impression with a careless turn of phrase or some such thoughtless phrase.

[Blenheim]

Let me just preface by saying that I don't want to get into any sort of clash personally with you. I respect the concern and share it. My only interest in the whole discussion, really, is hopefully getting to the bottom of the actual problem and doing it fairly.

I agree with the underlying concern here. I am very skeptical about the entire scenario. Fortunately I needn't rely on my intuition to know that something stinks because people far more competent at analyzing probabilities and the like have given my opinion on the matter ample cover and I can feel comfortable finding it borderline unfathomable that this pattern could be the work of plausible, if unlikely statistical chance.

Also, I'm indifferent about Mr. Baffert. I recognize what he brings to the game and think that is all well and good. However, don't think that I'm some kind of fan. As far as the CHRB goes - well, they've proven themselves to me to be little more than a weird political dog and pony show. I'm not sure that there was a whole lot more that they could reasonably be expected to do in this case in terms of actually finding the cause and addressing it, but they don't inspire confidence in me in general.

Now that all that disclaimer stuff is out of the way... :)

I'll agree that there was likely a violation on the clause referring to the fact that a medication must be prescribed for a specific existing condition.

But really... I'm just not sure that transgression of getting Thyro-L for multiple horses (or EVERY horse as the case may be) without sufficient justification is cause for utter outrage.

Sure, there is no denying that on that point, the spirit of the rule, if not the rule itself, has been breached. I believe the CHRB attempted in a clumsy way to pre-emptively address that reality. Unfortunately, clenbuterol is prescribed without scoping every horse that gets it. Bute tabs are prescribed without doing a full clinical exam for lameness or soreness on every horse that gets it. Criminy, the most prevalent raceday treatment around, Lasix, is very likely dispensed and administered without any actual diagnosis in many cases. That's not the biggest secret in racing.

My point being, it may not be exactly right, and may in fact be a violation, but it is a regular event. We can debate up and down if that's right or wrong, but in the end, I think we lose sight of what the real problem is - the deaths of these horses.

I tend to believe that the Thyro-L is at best a scapegoat and at worst an outright red herring that will only get those that want the truth, as well as the consequences, farther away from it.

Trying to hang either Baffert or the CHRB on that clause of the provision would essentially give cause to hang almost anyone on every backside. So, while to the letter of the law, you may not be wrong on that point, again, I just do not think that you are attempting to punish the right evil here and to a horsemen, it would be a bit of a scary proposition to think that everything requiring a label needed to be accompanied with a diagnosis that justifies it when you consider the run of the mill NSAIDS and analgesics that are used.

Sure, maybe we can shift the debate into reforming policies that deal with the widespread use of those substances as well. But again, off the track of the problem here, in my opinion.

I think what could best be taken from your objection and what I acknowledge within that objection to be warranted in my opinion - and from the awkwardness of the CHRB's approach to this portion of the objection - is that they maybe could do a better job at delineating which prescribed medications should be regulated better and differentiate between having a bottle of bute tabs and a bottle of Thyro-L. I do think that there is a worthwhile gripe to the idea of using the medicine as the report implies - as though it were a supplement - instead of a prescribed medicine.

Unfortunately, the only way you'll probably ever know if the rule were being followed is if this same event happens and we are looking at every chemical in a carcass. So, instead, I think we'd be better served in the context of this debate trying to minimize the number of times that we need to even worry about interrogating the barn to ascertain every chemical and food delivered that be a clue, as opposed to hanging on a fragmented clause of a loosely if ever enforced rule to satisfy our dismay with this scenario.


EDITED to note: I'm sorry that turned into an entire chapter. I didn't mean to do it. But I don't want to be unclear and try to avoid giving the wrong impression with a careless turn of phrase or some such thoughtless phrase.


I appreciate your post. I share the thoughts expressed in your first paragraph.

~

You have addressed the second clause of 1843(c), but you did not address the first clause. Has the first clause of 1843 (c) been violated?

(c) No person other than a licensed veterinarian or animal health technician shall have in his/her possession any drug substance which can be administered to a horse, except such drug substance prescribed by a licensed veterinarian for a specific existing condition of a horse and which is properly labeled.

Please respond.

~

I take it from your post you are, have been or are closely associated with horsemen, you believe their backside culture of prescribing, dispensing and administering drugs without a clinical reason is acceptable behavior, and that behavior had nothing to do with the death of seven horses. The CHRB didn’t inspire your confidence, however they did most everything they could and their report should be accepted. The death of the seven horses has shown the CHRB needs to “do a better job at delineating which prescribed medications should be regulated better and differentiate between having a bottle of bute tabs and a bottle of Thyro-L.” Finally, you remind horsemen to pay closer attention to what they administer to their stock, making sure not to produce another carcass, lest someone challenge them on a “fragmented clause of a loosely if ever enforced rule.” In this way, you hope to get to the bottom of the actual problem, the death of the seven horses, and do it fairly.

I disagree. The fast, loose and profitable culture of prescribing, dispensing and administering drugs without a clinical reason is what led to the deaths of the seven horses. The drug business on the backside is rampant and out of control, drugs are being prescribed by vets at the request of trainers, and possessed and administered by staff and grooms in violation of CHRB rules. It is a racket without checks and balances. What is particularly troubling with this backside drug culture is staff and grooms are administering drugs without documentation. It is my opinion that this unchecked and undocumented behavior led to the death of the horses. The dispensing and administration of drugs needs to be controlled and existing rules must be enforced. Hopefully the FBI, DEA and ICE have read the report, don’t accept the conclusion, are working on the case, and will step in and take necessary action as they did in Pennsylvania.

The report, in its ineptitude, did not determine who administered Thyroxine, how much was administered, when it was administered and under whose authority. Nor did the report provide toxicology data relating to the amount of drug present in the dead horses. How can this report be accepted when fundamental questions were left unanswered? The CHRB inquiry failed and their report must not and should not be accepted. An independent objective bipartisan board must be appointed to investigate and determine the cause of the death of the seven horses. Only then, can we get to the bottom of the actual problem and do it fairly

[johnhannibalsmith]

I appreciate your post. I share the thoughts expressed in your first paragraph.

~

You have addressed the second clause of 1843(c), but you did not address the first clause. Has the first clause of 1843 (c) been violated?

(c) No person other than a licensed veterinarian or animal health technician shall have in his/her possession any drug substance which can be administered to a horse, except such drug substance prescribed by a licensed veterinarian for a specific existing condition of a horse and which is properly labeled.

Please respond.


Yes, I addressed the entire clause, because the second clause is the pertinent one in this case. NO person shall... UNLESS the drug is PRESCRIBED...

From the report:

To confirm this, medical records were requested and provided for 7 matched case control horses to each fatality by race or work date for horses at Santa Anita or at Del Mar in the case of Case #5. All 7 had been regularly prescribed Thyro-L.

So, the drug has been prescribed. Forget clause one. The exception portion, the second clause, is in effect. It was prescribed and labeled. It was perfectly within his right to have it in his control and the control of those he delegates responsibility to.

I truly don't understand why this is unclear after several posts on this matter, but it seems rather cut and dried to me. That element - the complaint about the actual possession of this prescribed drug by barn staff and their authority to use it - makes little sense to me. I'm not sure what I am missing or you are missing for this to continue to be a part of the disagreement.



~

I take it from your post you are, have been or are closely associated with horsemen, you believe their backside culture of prescribing, dispensing and administering drugs without a clinical reason is acceptable behavior, and that behavior had nothing to do with the death of seven horses.

I take it that you don't spend much time reading what I write closely. This sort of sentence is why it is silly to even try to post at times. I've written in nearly every post some form of reassurance that I feel exactly the opposite as you have described but that I feel either you are being wholly unfair in your quest for vengeance or flat out misinterpreting what the rules state. If you want to debate the rules themselves or the drug culture, get in line and get on board. I needn't type the same thing over and over again. I think I addressed this knee jerk deflection sufficiently already.



I disagree. The fast, loose and profitable culture of prescribing, dispensing and administering drugs without a clinical reason is what led to the deaths of the seven horses. The drug business on the backside is rampant and out of control, drugs are being prescribed by vets at the request of trainers, and possessed and administered by staff and grooms in violation of CHRB rules. It is a racket without checks and balances. What is particularly troubling with this backside drug culture is staff and grooms are administering drugs without documentation. It is my opinion that this unchecked and undocumented behavior led to the death of the horses. The dispensing and administration of drugs needs to be controlled and existing rules must be enforced. Hopefully the FBI, DEA and ICE have read the report, don’t accept the conclusion, are working on the case, and will step in and take necessary action as they did in Pennsylvania.


Okay. We read that hear over and over on any number of drug reform debates. But your entire thread was predicated on these deaths and the presence of thyroxine and your seeming belief that is it a smoking gun here. I dispute most of what you have submitted as some form evidence to suggest that particular rules have been broken. That's it. If you want to lament the drug culture in general, by all means. I won't stop you.


The report, in its ineptitude, did not determine who administered Thyroxine, how much was administered, when it was administered and under whose authority.

How carefully the dosage was followed was not determined. Per Baffert, barn staff including grooms, were involved in administering the thyroxine in feed.

If you mean they don't have video evidence, then I suppose. But the report seems pretty forthcoming with the answers they got from the barn on those questions.


Nor did the report provide toxicology data relating to the amount of drug present in the dead horses. How can this report be accepted when fundamental questions were left unanswered? The CHRB inquiry failed and their report must not and should not be accepted. An independent objective bipartisan board must be appointed to investigate and determine the cause of the death of the seven horses. Only then, can we get to the bottom of the actual problem and do it fairly

I'll be honest, I'm not positive that they test for thyroxine in the way that you imply, as a foreign substance. I don't know if it is distinguished from ordinary T4 levels that are naturally occurring. I just do not know. I tried to look at half-life of T3 and T4 and metabolites to have a semi-educated opinion, but frankly, I just have no idea if it is even possible to determine what is evidence of high level of thyroxine supplementation and what is simple high levels of T4 reflecting natural hyperthyroidism. So, I can't address the first part at all.

And the last part sounds a whole lot better to me than creatively building a case for retribution based on the thyroxine theory, which seems like a waste of effort.

[Blenheim]

Considering post # 52, I found your last post a great disappointment . . .

[Stillriledup]

Seems like this discussion has centered around Thyro L and the idea that this is NOT a "Red herring".

It seems that the discussion has already gone to assume this was the reason for all the Deaths, and since it wasnt "illegal" to give to horses, everyone is off the hook.

If many trainers use this stuff, those trainers still have not had "7 deaths" so why would we think that Thyro L is any factor whatsoever in these sudden racehorse deaths?

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, I addressed the entire clause, because the second clause is the pertinent one in this case. NO person shall... UNLESS the drug is PRESCRIBED...

From the report:

To confirm this, medical records were requested and provided for 7 matched case control horses to each fatality by race or work date for horses at Santa Anita or at Del Mar in the case of Case #5. All 7 had been regularly prescribed Thyro-L.

So, the drug has been prescribed. Forget clause one. The exception portion, the second clause, is in effect. It was prescribed and labeled. It was perfectly within his right to have it in his control and the control of those he delegates responsibility to.

I truly don't understand why this is unclear after several posts on this matter, but it seems rather cut and dried to me.Agree 100% on that which I quoted you above. It is cut and dried, and I too don't understand why Blenheim keeps beating a dead horse (terrible and unintended pun). How does he continue to decry this supposed violation when in fact there was no violation at all, given the black and white CHRB rule that Blenheim himself continues to cite...

(c) No person other than a licensed veterinarian or animal health technician shall have in his/her possession any drug substance which can be administered to a horse, except such drug substance prescribed by a licensed veterinarian for a specific existing condition of a horse and which is properly labeled.

Blenheim, the rule as stated allows Baffert to have this drug in his possession and to administer it himself, as it was prescribed by a licensed vet (as far as we know). What about that don't you get?

[Grits]

JohnHannibal, did exceptional work in replying to the OP's comments. With his wealth of knowledge as a horseman, he, graciously and patiently, broke down each point, though having already responded to those concerns.

Blenheim, I'm sorry, but you've been schooled by one who has not only an understanding of the rules, but also, the obvious understanding that there is far more at play here than drawing claims against one trainer. Like so many of us, his greater concern was, and is, for the death of these, and all horses on the track.

I wish you'd not found his last reply "a great disappointment", as its a humble man who, after such an exchange as this, can admit that another has taught him something, or caused him to think a bit deeper. Comments such as your's cause JHS and others to not bother. I'm grateful for the participation of the gentlemen here who've spent their working careers within the industry. They are an asset to Pace Advantage, and too, one of the primary reasons industry folks are reading this topic, this website.

[chadk66]

Seems like this discussion has centered around Thyro L and the idea that this is NOT a "Red herring".

It seems that the discussion has already gone to assume this was the reason for all the Deaths, and since it wasnt "illegal" to give to horses, everyone is off the hook.

If many trainers use this stuff, those trainers still have not had "7 deaths" so why would we think that Thyro L is any factor whatsoever in these sudden racehorse deaths?
it isn't a factor. they need to keep looking or go public with the likelyhood that they have no test to determine the cause.

[Grits]

Going back to November, reading through this thread, knowing, Thyroxine, was one of the drugs Blasi spoke of as being given to all the horses in their barn, while the CHRB still found nothing as to why Baffert's horses dropped dead, I remain dumbfounded that so many are still citing PETA--the messenger. Even in the face of Dinny Phipps' statement for the Jockey Club, the denial on the part of bloggers, posters, etc, is mind boggling.

Here at Pace Advantage, we were questioning this--the deaths of these horses, the uncontrolled administration of drugs. Others, for the most part, ignored the deaths. Some, I've read, surprised to now learn of them.

JohnHannibal, speaking of videos. This statement you made at the end of November.

Are you psychic?

If you mean they don't have video evidence, then I suppose.

[Delawaretrainer]

Going back to November, reading through this thread, knowing, Thyroxine, was one of the drugs Blasi spoke of as being given to all the horses in their barn, while the CHRB still found nothing as to why Baffert's horses dropped dead, I remain dumbfounded that so many are still citing PETA--the messenger. Even in the face of Dinny Phipps' statement for the Jockey Club, the denial on the part of bloggers, posters, etc, is mind boggling.

Here at Pace Advantage, we were questioning this--the deaths of these horses, the uncontrolled administration of drugs. Others, for the most part, ignored the deaths. Some, I've read, surprised to now learn of them.

JohnHannibal, speaking of videos. This statement you made at the end of November.

Are you psychic?

Ok, let me explain why horseman are upset....we are not in denial. I don't know anyone that would condone the thyro l thing. In fact I was really surprised it came up again, but it surely explains form reversal off the claim. I mean are these guys hiring the same scientist or something? None of us like losing races to people that do unethical things like this.

However, the video is riddled with obvious editing and they filmed things that are a normal part of managing horses in an inflammatory way. For example, there is a horse with a tube being stuck up his nose. Looks really bad right? This is a scope,A a camera the vet uses to check the airway for blood mucous and anatomical problems that need addressing. Horses can displace their palate during a race or have a paralyzed flap. You're an idiot if you don't do this if your horse stops during a race. We also do it many days before a race in case their is mucous, it would be pretty mean to run a horse full of mucous. Anyone wanting to learn more about this look up the video "inside natures giants, the racehorse". It's really cool and they actually scope a racehorse while it works out. The PETA thing also shows horses getting various injections that could have been vaccines. They get their joints injections. We do that and human athletes do this. It can be diagnostic. There is no proof there was anything unethical going on with the horse. Then there is a bunch of macho talk and stuff that is just dumb that makes us look bad. He also says no when the girl asks if he helped employees get fake papers but the volume is manipulated.

So, I feel that I have to attack the video but that doesn't make me agree with everything in it.

[thaskalos]

Ok, let me explain why horseman are upset....we are not in denial. I don't know anyone that would condone the thyro l thing. In fact I was really surprised it came up again, but it surely explains form reversal off the claim. I mean are these guys hiring the same scientist or something? None of us like losing races to people that do unethical things like this.

However, the video is riddled with obvious editing and they filmed things that are a normal part of managing horses in an inflammatory way. For example, there is a horse with a tube being stuck up his nose. Looks really bad right? This is a scope,A a camera the vet uses to check the airway for blood mucous and anatomical problems that need addressing. Horses can displace their palate during a race or have a paralyzed flap. You're an idiot if you don't do this if your horse stops during a race. We also do it many days before a race in case their is mucous, it would be pretty mean to run a horse full of mucous. Anyone wanting to learn more about this look up the video "inside natures giants, the racehorse". It's really cool and they actually scope a racehorse while it works out. The PETA thing also shows horses getting various injections that could have been vaccines. They get their joints injections. We do that and human athletes do this. It can be diagnostic. There is no proof there was anything unethical going on with the horse. Then there is a bunch of macho talk and stuff that is just dumb that makes us look bad. He also says no when the girl asks if he helped employees get fake papers but the volume is manipulated.

So, I feel that I have to attack the video but that doesn't make me agree with everything in it.
How do you feel about the use of the "makina"?

[Delawaretrainer]

How do you feel about the use of the "makina"?

That's pretty bad. I've never seen one used. Thought they were a thing of the past since if you are caught with one you can pretty much plan to leave the industry. But that is another issue with the video. No one says Santana's name. The subtitles and narrator added it. Somehow that translated into he did it. I guess I would believe it if the rest of the footage has proof.

As a horseman I would assume using one would backfire. Horses can be smart when it comes to avoiding the negative. Try to do something like this to get a horse to break faster and pretty soon they won't go in the gate......

But again, I just feel the need to sift through the b.s. Doesn't mean I'm ok with all of it. I love d.wayne and was like "doh!!!!" When he started talking. I don't think any less of him though. Out west some guys treat horses like livestock and that is where he started.

What would you do though....horse is healthy, cost a half a million, super talented, just doesn't really try. Horse doesn't have a plan b job, either runs or god knows what happens to him.... Would you give him a little 1/2 second wake up call? I've never done it but I've also never spent too much on a horse.

[thaskalos]

That's pretty bad. I've never seen one used. Thought they were a thing of the past since if you are caught with one you can pretty much plan to leave the industry. But that is another issue with the video. No one says Santana's name. The subtitles and narrator added it. Somehow that translated into he did it. I guess I would believe it if the rest of the footage has proof.

As a horseman I would assume using one would backfire. Horses can be smart when it comes to avoiding the negative. Try to do something like this to get a horse to break faster and pretty soon they won't go in the gate......

But again, I just feel the need to sift through the b.s. Doesn't mean I'm ok with all of it. I love d.wayne and was like "doh!!!!" When he started talking. I don't think any less of him though. Out west some guys treat horses like livestock and that is where he started.

What would you do though....horse is healthy, cost a half a million, super talented, just doesn't really try. Horse doesn't have a plan b job, either runs or god knows what happens to him.... Would you give him a little 1/2 second wake up call? I've never done it but I've also never spent too much on a horse.

I respect and understand what you say, but as you yourself probably acknowledge -- there is also another side to this argument.

There are millions of dollars bet on the outcomes of these races...so people are liable to get mad when they hear a superstar jockey laughingly admit to using a battery to win a race.

[CryingForTheHorses]

That's pretty bad. I've never seen one used. Thought they were a thing of the past since if you are caught with one you can pretty much plan to leave the industry. But that is another issue with the video. No one says Santana's name. The subtitles and narrator added it. Somehow that translated into he did it. I guess I would believe it if the rest of the footage has proof.

As a horseman I would assume using one would backfire. Horses can be smart when it comes to avoiding the negative. Try to do something like this to get a horse to break faster and pretty soon they won't go in the gate......

But again, I just feel the need to sift through the b.s. Doesn't mean I'm ok with all of it. I love d.wayne and was like "doh!!!!" When he started talking. I don't think any less of him though. Out west some guys treat horses like livestock and that is where he started.

What would you do though....horse is healthy, cost a half a million, super talented, just doesn't really try. Horse doesn't have a plan b job, either runs or god knows what happens to him.... Would you give him a little 1/2 second wake up call? I've never done it but I've also never spent too much on a horse.


You sound like a great guy and a astute trainer,I get that reading your posts,.I have to 2nd all that you say about the video,On how you percieve it.I m sure not many would believe this,I have never held a buzzer nor have I ever tried it on a horse.Like you say,The assist had potty mouth,Talking like that in front of a woman,No class..Im also not saying bad things happen to horses,Im just glad Im not part of it. I really dont know how these guys sleep at night. You do everything you can within the rules of racing to win...Too bad some people cant understand that!

[lamboguy]

You sound like a great guy and a astute trainer,I get that reading your posts,.I have to 2nd all that you say about the video,On how you percieve it.I m sure not many would believe this,I have never held a buzzer nor have I ever tried it on a horse.Like you say,The assist had potty mouth,Talking like that in front of a woman,No class..Im also not saying bad things happen to horses,Im just glad Im not part of it. I really dont know how these guys sleep at night. You do everything you can within the rules of racing to win...Too bad some people cant understand that!she's a great gal, and has good knowledge about this game

[Delawaretrainer]

Ok here is the link

http://youtu.be/QsvS6gEBJuE

Warning, they do an autopsy...

One part of the video addresses a horse flipping their palette. I never 100% understood this until I saw this video. The use of a tongue tie is an attempt to correct this. I have heard that a minor surgery to correct this problem improved rapid redux to win all those races.

From a handicapping perspective it may explain a lot. Some people believe these horses with this problem must run out front. Rating them or the pressure from other horses can make them displace. Just something to think about when a trainer looks dumb sending a horse all the time. Might want to bet on these when they are the only speed in the race.

But I guess the point of this thread goes back to the "video". Sometimes there are explanations to these treatments and we won't know. What trainer is going to blab about everything we do? Why don't we just let other trainers come to our barn and shop through our claimers.

[Stillriledup]

I respect and understand what you say, but as you yourself probably acknowledge -- there is also another side to this argument.

There are millions of dollars bet on the outcomes of these races...so people are liable to get mad when they hear a superstar jockey laughingly admit to using a battery to win a race.

In no way am i condoning the use of the Makina, but as a handicapper, couldnt you make the case that this is just something you have to consider is happening?

When a horseplayer yells "kick in drugs, kick in drugs" during a stretch drive, he's factored into his handicapping that there may be illicit drugs inside these runners, maybe with the "makina" its a similar thing for handicappers?

[thaskalos]

In no way am i condoning the use of the Makina, but as a handicapper, couldnt you make the case that this is just something you have to consider is happening?

When a horseplayer yells "kick in drugs, kick in drugs" during a stretch drive, he's factored into his handicapping that there may be illicit drugs inside these runners, maybe with the "makina" its a similar thing for handicappers?
Not everything can be "factored" into one's handicapping, SRU...we are talking criminal behavior here. We've had renowned veterinarians who have gone on record to say that there are illegal drugs out that which increase the horses' LOCOMOTION. Had you heard that before? Do you realize what this means? And we now find that superstar jockeys laugh about using batteries to win races?

And a 17-30% takeout to boot?

And you think that the horseplayer can overcome these obstacles by being a little more studious with his DRF, and his replay watching? I hope you are kidding me here...

[Stillriledup]

Not everything can be "factored" into one's handicapping, SRU...we are talking criminal behavior here. We've had renowned veterinarians who have gone on record to say that there are illegal drugs out that which increase the horses' LOCOMOTION. Had you heard that before? Do you realize what this means? And we now find that superstar jockeys laugh about using batteries to win races?

And a 17-30% takeout to boot?

And you think that the horseplayer can overcome these obstacles by being a little more studious with his DRF, and his replay watching? I hope you are kidding me here...

You can factor in anything you want, the key though is this: can you interpret it?. If you can't interpret what you think you might see, that can get you in trouble.

As far as locomotion goes, the best i can do is get what my eyes can see on the tape and somehow try to interpret it to the best of my ability. If a horse who is getting illegal drugs does something on the tape that i cant see, there's nothing i can do about it. I do pride myself on having nothing get past me, i go on the mantra that if it happened, i saw it and if i saw it, i interpreted it properly.

You can just overcome as many obstacles as you can, work as hard as you can and try and be as observant or more observant than your competition. As far as what can be interpreted is really up to each race replay watcher, two people can watch the same race and come away with different ideas, which is obviously what makes this the greatest game in the world.

[iceknight]

In no way am i condoning the use of the Makina, but as a handicapper, couldnt you make the case that this is just something you have to consider is happening?

When a horseplayer yells "kick in drugs, kick in drugs" during a stretch drive, he's factored into his handicapping that there may be illicit drugs inside these runners, maybe with the "makina" its a similar thing for handicappers?i Normally incorporate stewards ruling during DQ's in my handicapping.. but I hear SRU downs frowns upon that. You gotta be kidding to talk about abusive behavior as business as usual scenario and just accepting it.. especially when they are not being transparent about it.

[Stillriledup]

i Normally incorporate stewards ruling during DQ's in my handicapping.. but I hear SRU downs frowns upon that. You gotta be kidding to talk about abusive behavior as business as usual scenario and just accepting it.. especially when they are not being transparent about it.

What's the difference if i accept it or DONT accept it? Its up to the tracks to clean up their own house, i can only analyze what they give me.