This could get very interesting (Penn arrests)

[cj]

Paulick on Twitter: Pennsylvania HBPA president Tim Shea said he witnessed trainer David Wells being handcuffed, taken away at Penn National.

[The Hawk]

From Ray Paulick on Twitter:

Getting multiple (still unconfirmed) reports of numerous arrests by FBI/state police at Penn National racetrack.

[jballscalls]

is high takeout illegal now?

[turninforhome10]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20131122_Feds_probe_horseracing_in_PA.html

deb jones ‏@Shortsqueeze2 59m
So far those arrested this am at Penn are: David Wells, Danny, (clocker), Trish Rogers, Sam Webb

[Mineshaft]

they were searching trainers vehicles either Monday or Tuesday of this week. Wonder what they found.

[Wingtips]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/arrests-rock-penn-national/

Feds in the house!
David Wells in handcuffs.

[Robert Fischer]

Penn National actually has some good people in management.

It sounds like the state is currently in the process of establishing a greater hands on approach.

Most likely from the very limited information available, it would seem that doping/medication rules were being looked at under the category of race fixing.

[cj]

I always had a bad feeling when Rapid Redux was given that Vox Populi Eclipse Award, just like when Michael Gill won one for Top Owner.

These are not the kind of connections you want winning awards. Anyone with half a brain knew there was a pungent aroma surrounding Wells, and "the streak", and there has been one for several years.

[JustRalph]

I hope somebody got cell phone footage of one of these Guys doing a frog march.........

I can hear toilets flushing all over PA.

[cj]

I hope somebody got cell phone footage of one of these Guys doing a frog march.........

I can hear toilets flushing all over PA.

Pennsylvania or PaceAdvantage?

[FantasticDan]

More local news reports:

http://www.abc27.com/story/24044881/penn-national-employee-3-trainers-accused-of-rigging-races

http://fox43.com/2013/11/22/four-charged-with-fraud-at-penn-national/#axzz2lOaB7ldd

[JustRalph]

Pennsylvania or PaceAdvantage?

Both :lol:

I meant the state of PA........

[thaskalos]

Let's be thankful that this sort of illegal activity is confined to the state of Pennsylvania. :rolleyes:

[stuball]

If Webb was caught on May 2, 2013 how does he get to run 71 horses
between then and now..........................?

Stuball

[Exotic1]

Let's be thankful that this sort of illegal activity is confined to the state of Pennsylvania. :rolleyes:

Too much.

[thaskalos]

If Webb was caught on May 2, 2013 how does he get to run 71 horses
between then and now..........................?

Stuball

It was part of the "investigation" process... :)

[johnhannibalsmith]

Interesting indeed.

It will be most curious to see what the end result of this targeted prosecution is.

Get that free money while you can.

[Robert Goren]

You have wonder how many people are wondering " Will I be next?"

[wiffleball whizz]

Proximity is on the way to give us a live report

[Stillriledup]

You have wonder how many people are wondering " Will I be next?"

Hopefully everyone, including a few in California who seem to have alphabet groups covering for their crimes.

[cj]

Proximity is on the way to give us a live report

Let's hope he doesn't leave in bracelets.

[olddaddy]

Tonite might be a night to play penn and use the form as an actually tool.

[cj]

Some details...it is mostly about the drugs.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/11/3_horse_trainers_and_1_track_e.html

[Mineshaft]

Sounds like it was all drugs and inacurrate clocking.

[cj]

Sounds like it was all drugs and inacurrate clocking.

On the workout side, probably more about made up workouts than mistimed ones.

[proximity]

Let's hope he doesn't leave in bracelets.

I was counting on you for bail. :)

[Mineshaft]

I was counting on you for bail. :)


well what did you find out?

[Stillriledup]

On the workout side, probably more about made up workouts than mistimed ones.

I'll tell you it was probably a gold mine for anyone who was a private clocker who was watching works at Penn...they would have their own database and know that certain horses never actually worked out as well as horses who were totally mistimed.

I'd love to know which trainers were paying this guy off for fake workout info and i wonder if Equibase and or DRF will go back into the database and get rid of some of the fraudulent works.

[proximity]

well what did you find out?

I was kicked out of the game the other week when they started taxing the rebate shop.

right now i'm just lazing about watching American ninja v on encore action. maybe i'll head out later though?:)

[098poi]

On some level I think giving false workout reports is lower than doping horses and that is pretty low to begin with.

[Grits]

This is a place that one can only wish.. that a sink hole, a really big one, would open up and swallow the racetrack. Not its horses, mind you, but its track, and the scum that reside there.

[menifee]

Wow - this is amazing. This could be a new day in horse racing. If they start charging every trainer who drugs their horse with a federal wire fraud charge - we are not going to have any trainers left or this game will become clean real quick.

From a legal perspective, I'm not sure a wire fraud charge can stick here. I need to think about this.

[Mineshaft]

Wow - this is amazing. This could be a new day in horse racing. If they start charging every trainer who drugs their horse with a federal wire fraud charge - we are not going to have any trainers left or this game will become clean real quick.

From a legal perspective, I'm not sure a wire fraud charge can stick here. I need to think about this.




Its going to tighten the game up you better believe it.

[lamboguy]

Its going to tighten the game up you better believe it. this was the first time i have seen a case like this get prosecuted anywhere, let alone federally.

no doubt it does set a precedent for the future. the U.S. Attorney's office's are interested in cases that carry big fines. they might go after bigger fish next time out.

therefore i would say that this case will have a tremendous impact on the game, it might be a very positive one.

[Stillriledup]

Wow - this is amazing. This could be a new day in horse racing. If they start charging every trainer who drugs their horse with a federal wire fraud charge - we are not going to have any trainers left or this game will become clean real quick.

From a legal perspective, I'm not sure a wire fraud charge can stick here. I need to think about this.

I'm going to celebrate this bust by watching "The Firm" on the internet tonight.

Please Join me folks in a toast, to the Cuffs FINALLY coming out. :ThmbUp:

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm going to celebrate this bust by watching "The Firm" on the internet tonight.

Please Join me folks in a toast, to the Cuffs FINALLY coming out. :ThmbUp:

I'm sure Mr. Gill will be right there with you.

[Stillriledup]

I'm sure Mr. Gill will be right there with you.

This is an incredible day for racing.

[johnhannibalsmith]

This is an incredible day for racing.

I'd refrain from getting overly excited until you see this sort of action in more than one jurisdiction (and type of jurisdiction). But yeah, in theory, I can't really complain since I guess it has indeed come to this.

[Relwob Owner]

This is an incredible day for racing.


It will be an incredible day when they are convicted of something substantial.

[Stillriledup]

It will be an incredible day when they are convicted of something substantial.

True, no doubt, i agree. We have to take one step at a time, but if someone actually goes to the big house, that would be party time.

[shouldacoulda]

Wow - this is amazing. This could be a new day in horse racing. If they start charging every trainer who drugs their horse with a federal wire fraud charge - we are not going to have any trainers left or this game will become clean real quick.

From a legal perspective, I'm not sure a wire fraud charge can stick here. I need to think about this.

It may though invoke the RICO statute. If that happens they pretty much take everything you own. 25 years ago somebody told me there were satellites that could track 2 million cell phone calls per second simultaneously. They scan for numbers dialed and voice recognition. Remember the scene in one of those Patriot Games movies? The technology could have only gotten better since then. Privacy? That's a thing of the distant past.

[jerry-g]

Don't ya just love it! I can almost hear the phones ringing in Hollywood now.
Producers looking for the cast to star in a new Godfather movie about fixing
races. The public at large love to see crooks being handcuffed and sent up
the river to the big house. Irony for them will be that most prison inmates
are well versed in how to read a racing form. :lol:

[johnhannibalsmith]

It may though invoke the RICO statute...

I don't see anything in those indictments or the allegations within that suggests an ongoing criminal conspiracy or enterprise. I think that's a monumental stretch.

[shouldacoulda]

Tonite might be a night to play penn and use the form as an actually tool.

I had pretty much all but given up on the place. See some darn head scratching wins there. Too many of them.

[shouldacoulda]

I don't see anything in those indictments or the allegations within that suggests an ongoing criminal conspiracy or enterprise. I think that's a monumental stretch.
You're probably right. I'm no lawyer.

[nijinski]

On some level I think giving false workout reports is lower than doping horses and that is pretty low to begin with.


Looks bad that he took money for this .

Doesn't make his employer too proud either .

[Relwob Owner]

True, no doubt, i agree. We have to take one step at a time, but if someone actually goes to the big house, that would be party time.

I agree. Any progress is a good thing but the enforcement piece seems to leave so many ways for people to get out of real punishment.

[TonyK@HSH]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20131122_Feds_probe_horseracing_in_PA.html

deb jones ‏@Shortsqueeze2 59m
So far those arrested this am at Penn are: David Wells, Danny, (clocker), Trish Rogers, Sam Webb

Come on turn- please try to be careful when commenting on this serious matter. Michelle Francis was NOT arrested today.

Tony

[Beachbabe]

If Webb was caught on May 2, 2013 how does he get to run 71 horses
between then and now..........................?

Stuball

This is what baffles me, too. One was caught in May; the other in August and the third has been found doing this for years , yet they still went on plying their trade till the feds took them away. :confused:

[Stillriledup]

I agree. Any progress is a good thing but the enforcement piece seems to leave so many ways for people to get out of real punishment.

Yep, lawyers are good at their jobs, and there are plea bargains available i would imagine, so we shall see, hopefully they go hard at prosecuting them.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Yep, lawyers are good at their jobs, and there are plea bargains available i would imagine, so we shall see, hopefully they go hard at prosecuting them.

Maybe its the cynic in me, but I think they've already accomplished their goal by dragging these people out and making headlines in the local papers with allegations of race fixing.

[PaceAdvantage]

this was the first time i have seen a case like this get prosecuted anywhere, let alone federally.That's because in order to obtain a conviction, you need HARD EVIDENCE that the trainer was the one who actually administered the banned substances.

Short of videotape or a reliable witness (good luck finding one of those), no district attorney is going to forge ahead with this type of case knowing full well he won't win without hard proof.

Plenty of reasonable doubt can be raised (contaminated feed, rival trainer, groom, etc.) unless you catch the trainer doing it red-handed. Apparently, this might be the case in this instance since they wouldn't be going through all of these motions unless they had a solid case.

But NOBODY (Mineshaft, this is for you) should think for one moment this is the dawning of a new day...unless of course 24-hour surveillance equipment is installed in every barn/stall on the grounds...and good luck getting tracks to spend money on that...

[PaceAdvantage]

This is an incredible day for racing.This is an isolated case at best...I've already outlined why this type of thing will not be a common occurrence going forward unless tracks embrace 21st century (hell, even 20th century will do) surveillance techniques.

[Stillriledup]

This is an isolated case at best...I've already outlined why this type of thing will not be a common occurrence going forward unless tracks embrace 21st century (hell, even 20th century will do) surveillance techniques.

I hear you and unfortunately, that is probably going to be the case. I just like planting the seed that if you cheat, you could be next. I think at worst, they accomplished that.

[menifee]

This is an isolated case at best...I've already outlined why this type of thing will not be a common occurrence going forward unless tracks embrace 21st century (hell, even 20th century will do) surveillance techniques.

If the Feds wanted to make these cases they could. Like most federal cases, they just would need to work the cases from the bottom up to the trainers. If they can bring down mafia figures, I think they can capture Jamie Ness if they care to.

[Rise Over Run]

If they can bring down mafia figures, I think they can capture Jamie Ness if they care to.

I'm pretty sure that Ness is considered an Untouchable. Somewhat ironic? :lol:

[Stillriledup]

I'm pretty sure that Ness is considered an Untouchable. Somewhat ironic? :lol:

Good one ROR. :D

[shouldacoulda]

So when can we expect a refund on those wagers we were defrauded out of? :lol:

[Quagmire]

I'm pretty sure that Ness is considered an Untouchable. Somewhat ironic? :lol:


HAHA :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

So when can we expect a refund on those wagers we were defrauded out of? :lol:

File a suit in small claims court and let us know how it goes! :ThmbUp:

[Mineshaft]

That's because in order to obtain a conviction, you need HARD EVIDENCE that the trainer was the one who actually administered the banned substances.

Short of videotape or a reliable witness (good luck finding one of those), no district attorney is going to forge ahead with this type of case knowing full well he won't win without hard proof.

Plenty of reasonable doubt can be raised (contaminated feed, rival trainer, groom, etc.) unless you catch the trainer doing it red-handed. Apparently, this might be the case in this instance since they wouldn't be going through all of these motions unless they had a solid case.

But NOBODY (Mineshaft, this is for you) should think for one moment this is the dawning of a new day...unless of course 24-hour surveillance equipment is installed in every barn/stall on the grounds...and good luck getting tracks to spend money on that...





Might not be the dawning of a new day but I guarantee you every trainer and clocker will think twice about doing illegal stuff now.

I think they get a suspension and a fine(slap on wrist? and they will be back in action in 6 months

[appistappis]

meanwhile at parx..............................

[Stillriledup]

meanwhile at parx..............................


Imagine THIS guy >>> :) eating popcorn.

[JustRalph]

Local news video

http://local21news.com/news/features/featured/stories/four-accused-rigging-horse-races-at-penn-national-928.shtml

They catch them outside the courthouse

One of them literally runs away

[thaskalos]

Local news video

http://local21news.com/news/features/featured/stories/four-accused-rigging-horse-races-at-penn-national-928.shtml

They catch them outside the courthouse

One of them literally runs away

Did the prosecutor say that these events today should..."raise the confidence level of bettors"?

I don't know about that...

[proximity]

One of them literally runs away

that was david wells.

they've nabbed clyde (wells), but bonnie remains free.

[PaceAdvantage]

Might not be the dawning of a new day but I guarantee you every trainer and clocker will think twice about doing illegal stuff now.Until the effect wears off and the lure of easier money becomes too much to resist...

[davew]

Now these four people face decades in prison and hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.

[Stillriledup]

Did the prosecutor say that these events today should..."raise the confidence level of bettors"?

I don't know about that...

Yeah, they said it will raise the level of bettors about a few seconds after the news anchor said "bettors won't bet getting their money back".

Hopefully the races in question come out in the trials, maybe we can have a class action lawsuit against the tracks, trainers and clockers, that would be nice to see that the horse wagering investors have some ability to become whole again.

[Stillriledup]

I find it interesting that this happened at a slots track..you know how slots tracks would LOVE to get rid of the horse racing and keep the slots, nothing like terrible publicity for horse racing to get the state govt to shut down the tracks and keep the slots.

California doesnt have slots, so they have no reason to make their horse racing product look bad....so, the brooms come out and the major horse death scandals just get swept under the rug, hoping we forget about it.

[Mineshaft]

Now these four people face decades in prison and hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.




Even money they serve less than a year house arrest.

[OTM Al]

Yeah, they said it will raise the level of bettors about a few seconds after the news anchor said "bettors won't bet getting their money back".

Hopefully the races in question come out in the trials, maybe we can have a class action lawsuit against the tracks, trainers and clockers, that would be nice to see that the horse wagering investors have some ability to become whole again.

You are missing one group who actually benefitted. Those who bet on the winning horses. They have the money that somebody else should have according to you. So if you are going to sue the tracks, then you better sue the winning bettors as well.

[098poi]

Local news video

http://local21news.com/news/features/featured/stories/four-accused-rigging-horse-races-at-penn-national-928.shtml

They catch them outside the courthouse

One of them literally runs away

At about 30 seconds in a reporter asks Sam Webb, "These charges came as a complete surprise to you?" Webb, "Yeah". Reporter, "Why is that". Webb, "I don't know". I started laughing. :lol:

[jdhanover]

My 2 cents:
1) these guys kept running horses because they hadnt yet been arrested. Cnat stop guys from training on the 'threat' or 'investigation'
2) it is a good start, though I'd like to see a second state and the RICO invoked. It wont celan everything up...but would take a big step in that direction
3) There are a lot of honest horsemen. Smearing all of them with this (as some of the posts here have done) is a terrible thing to do.
4) Surprised the FBI spent as much resource on this as they did. Have to wonder if there is something else brewing. Did sound like others at PEN are being looked at. But I would like to see them nail a couple of guys in NY or CA to really send the message - big or small, cheat and you can be toast.

[Relwob Owner]

You are missing one group who actually benefitted. Those who bet on the winning horses. They have the money that somebody else should have according to you. So if you are going to sue the tracks, then you better sue the winning bettors as well.


The owners of the horses fit this as well. Bet they had no idea anything was going on..... :bang: :bang: :bang:

[MJC922]

That's because in order to obtain a conviction, you need HARD EVIDENCE that the trainer was the one who actually administered the banned substances.

Short of videotape or a reliable witness (good luck finding one of those), no district attorney is going to forge ahead with this type of case knowing full well he won't win without hard proof.

Plenty of reasonable doubt can be raised (contaminated feed, rival trainer, groom, etc.) unless you catch the trainer doing it red-handed. Apparently, this might be the case in this instance since they wouldn't be going through all of these motions unless they had a solid case.

But NOBODY (Mineshaft, this is for you) should think for one moment this is the dawning of a new day...unless of course 24-hour surveillance equipment is installed in every barn/stall on the grounds...and good luck getting tracks to spend money on that...

It could be made mandatory by the govt that a security team of let's say several guards per track (who are not actually track employees to avoid any conflict of interest) be hired to monitor video feeds using access control software. The IP cameras of today (such as those made by Axis) are not all that costly and can be configured for event recording i.e. motion detection during off hours etc to DVRs on the network. This would allow the video events to be reviewed and submitted as evidence as needed. Clearly there has to be more restricted access established to protect these horses (and the public), and maybe certain barns should be designated as staging areas for any horses that are scheduled to be running let's say arbitrarily within a 72 hour window that offer a significantly increased security presence.

[pandy]

Glad to see that they are prosecuting them for race fixing. This is what I've said many times in my column, illegal drugging of a racehorse is a felony, conspiracy to fix a sporting or parimutuel event.

[mountainman]

Several aspects of this still unclear. Will wait for more info before guessing at effect on industry. May at least alter mindset of stewards, a faction notorious for prioritizing self-preservation. Wrist slaps for repeat drug offenders may soon be out of fashion. Would not, at this point, predict more than that.

False-workout ramifications may be more wide-reaching-and have positive impact on game. Abolishment of phantom works seems certain, but tighter identification practices (that verify WHO worked, not how fast SOME horse worked) are possible offshoot that would greatly benefit players. Have been preaching for years that viewers should be skeptical of works. Very skeptical in certain situations.

[Track Phantom]

A few comments related to this:

* FBI involvement was the only way this kind of thing could send a message and deter others

* I hope they investigate all wagering activities of these individuals on the races in question. While illegally doping your horse with PED's in order to get an advantage on other trainers is awful, turning around and digging into the wagering pools on top of it is disgusting. It's the Pete Rose thing to me...if you bet on your own "team" (i.e. horse) that you were fixing, you have a lifetime ban and a whole new set of charges.

* I'm glad they took a long time with a massive investigation. Imagine how many other trainers are worried (right now) that they are being watched.

* They will do prison time. It won't be a slap on the wrist. When the FBI gets involved and spends the time and resources, they will have this locked up.

Overall, this is a great start. It tells me that the Feds do take this seriously and they consider it a crime worth attacking. It sets the precedent required for all other jurisdictions.

[rastajenk]

Is there any other sport whose most passionate fans celebrate when it takes a hit? You people are strange.

[JustRalph]

Is there any other sport whose most passionate fans celebrate when it takes a hit? You people are strange.

I can't think of another major sport that allows cheating to go on for years at a time by multiple high dollar participants.

[mountainman]

Is there any other sport whose most passionate fans celebrate when it takes a hit? You people are strange.

Did nfl fans (and commentators) seem particularly "torn up" to you in the wake of "bullygate"..or secretly pleased to have something to chew on?

With all respect, sir, it's human nature, perhaps THE saddest most unfortunate aspect of human nature, to revel in the misfortunes of others. And those arrested in the penn scandal have given players some misfortune of their own.

[Tom]

I can't think of another major sport that allows cheating to go on for years at a time by multiple high dollar participants.

Bingo Bango.
Racing deserves the crap it gets thrown at it because it does precious little to clean itself up and even less to counter the lies repeatedly printed about it.
The only place racing gets defended is by Steve Byk. Why arae the jerks getting paid by the game not doing it?

As to cheaters, when they are found and caught, what better way to support racing than cheer their downfall?

I am still set on lifetime bans for second time offenders.
This bunch rounded up Penn will never see the justice they deserve.

[burnsy]

I can't think of another major sport that allows cheating to go on for years at a time by multiple high dollar participants.

Did you ever hear of Baseball?

[Shelby]

I can't think of another major sport that allows cheating to go on for years at a time by multiple high dollar participants.


Boxing comes to mind…...

[OTM Al]

Boxing comes to mind…...
And pretty much every sport there has ever been.

[Shemp Howard]

Even money they serve less than a year house arrest.

If you only live once, why not live a year or two as a house guest of the state?

[cj]

Did nfl fans (and commentators) seem particularly "torn up" to you in the wake of "bullygate"..or secretly pleased to have something to chew on?

With all respect, sir, it's human nature, perhaps THE saddest most unfortunate aspect of human nature, to revel in the misfortunes of others. And those arrested in the penn scandal have given players some misfortune of their own.

I don't think this is it at all. Bettors are tired of KNOWING guys are cheating and getting away with it. To say this is other's "misfortune" is bs in my opinion. They brought it on themselves. It is about cleaning up the game that we love, not reveling in some people going to prison. We are tired of slaps on the wrist while they still keep the money they cheated out of various factions.

[cj]

Is there any other sport whose most passionate fans celebrate when it takes a hit? You people are strange.

You can't see why people would think this could be a GOOD thing? I'm skeptical it will happen, but it is possible.

[GMB@BP]

This is an isolated case at best...I've already outlined why this type of thing will not be a common occurrence going forward unless tracks embrace 21st century (hell, even 20th century will do) surveillance techniques.

You would think as cheap as camera's are now they could have a 1000 cameras installed everywhere on the track for security reasons and it would not be much of investment.

[TonyK@HSH]

Yeah, they said it will raise the level of bettors about a few seconds after the news anchor said "bettors won't bet getting their money back".

Hopefully the races in question come out in the trials, maybe we can have a class action lawsuit against the tracks, trainers and clockers, that would be nice to see that the horse wagering investors have some ability to become whole again.

Regarding Sam Webb and Trish Rogers the horses in question were scratched and never ran so bettors were not affected.

In Sam Webb's scenario, Sam served a 60 day suspension that was imposed by the Pa racing commission for this infraction. His suspension ended earlier this summer and he has been starting horses legally since his suspension. The Trish Rogers incident also resulted in a suspension by the Pa racing commission which is currently under appeal.
Intervention by the FBI is unique and in addition to any penalties levied by the racing commission.

Hope this information helps to clarify some of the comments and questions in this thread.

[cj]

The DRF says this investigation has been going on for FOUR years. If that is true, no way they get out of this with a slap on the wrist.

[JustRalph]

You would think as cheap as camera's are now they could have a 1000 cameras installed everywhere on the track for security reasons and it would not be much of investment.

Cheap cameras don't hold up in court. Defense attorneys know this too. Most video won't hold up in court without corroborating evidence. In these cases the video would have to be very good. But the deterrent factor would be valuable.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Cheap cameras don't hold up in court. Defense attorneys know this too. Most video won't hold up in court without corroborating evidence. In these cases the video would have to be very good. But the deterrent factor would be valuable.

Low-quality, grainy video footage has been used in cases for yrs.

[JustRalph]

Low-quality, grainy video footage has been used in cases for yrs.

With corroborating evidence, sure. I have had several cases failed to prosecute due to crappy video. Including a couple of cases in MD a few years back. It also depends on the prosecutor.

[thaskalos]

Local news video

http://local21news.com/news/features/featured/stories/four-accused-rigging-horse-races-at-penn-national-928.shtml

They catch them outside the courthouse

One of them literally runs away

Who could have guessed that trainer David Wells was so camera-shy?

[Tom]

When to they visit Hollywood and Santa Anita?

[PaceAdvantage]

Come on turn- please try to be careful when commenting on this serious matter. Michelle Francis was NOT arrested today.

TonySorry I missed this earlier.

I would like to state for the record that Michelle Francis's name was mistakenly posted here by one of our users, and said posts have had her name deleted.

It appears this false info originated from the following twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/Shortsqueeze2

[Stillriledup]

Who could have guessed that trainer David Wells was so camera-shy?

Seemed to love them cameras when Rapid Redux was winning his last few starts of his streak with me betting against him, holding on in his final race vs a horse worth about 3 cents i was salivating to bet against him and they retired him just in time, zero chance he was going to win his next start, he couldnt beat a solid 5 claimer at the end.

[proximity]

The owners of the horses fit this as well. Bet they had no idea anything was going on..... :bang: :bang: :bang:

this.

mr wells is only 1/3 of the equation. where was he for the 2000s? who owned the horses?

[badcompany]

I find it interesting that this happened at a slots track..you know how slots tracks would LOVE to get rid of the horse racing and keep the slots, nothing like terrible publicity for horse racing to get the state govt to shut down the tracks and keep the slots.

California doesnt have slots, so they have no reason to make their horse racing product look bad....so, the brooms come out and the major horse death scandals just get swept under the rug, hoping we forget about it.

I'm surprised it took 70 posts for someone to make this point. Apparently, PA has really had it with horsemen welfare. This kind of thing could be used as a pretext to get rid of both flats and harness in one fell swoop.

[Relwob Owner]

this.

mr wells is only 1/3 of the equation. where was he for the 2000s? who owned the horses?

Exactly.


Tying punishments to the owners would go a long way in getting to the bottom of the problem. The owners need to have some sort of deterrent from just using trainers and then when the trainers get popped, being able to move on to the next similar one without suffering any consequences themselves. People ask "Why should an owner get in trouble for a trainer's indiscretion and those people don't realize or wish to acknowledge that many, if not all owners know EXACTLY what is going on.

[Relwob Owner]

I'm surprised it took 70 posts for someone to make this point. Apparently, PA has really had it with horsemen welfare. This kind of thing could be used as a pretext to get rid of both flats and harness in one fell swoop.


Interesting theory.....the Penn folks also swept out Scooter Davis earlier this year as well up at CT. They do seem to be pretty proactive in these things and guess I just hope it is for the right reasons.

[Irish Boy]

The DRF says this investigation has been going on for FOUR years. If that is true, no way they get out of this with a slap on the wrist.
That's not unusual for a federal investigation.

It all depends on what you'd call a slap on the wrist in this situation. Assuming no criminal history and difficult-to-prove losses I could see pleading in return for probation, but you're still a federal felon. That's a pretty big deal. If the feds have enough to hang losses I could see small prison time but unless any of these people have criminal histories of one kind or another I can't imagine more than a few months imprisonment. Still, "federal felon" means something.

[Irish Boy]

I'll also say that unless it's a HUGE case, the feds generally go after the low hanging fruit. They won't bring an indictment unless they know they'll get a conviction out of it.

[mountainman]

A man who meant the sun and moon to me was once investigated by the fbi for race-fixing. From my knowledge of that probe, i'm not surprised they needed four years to nab one minor official and 2 or 3 small trainers. Do not overestimate them.

[MONEY]

Do not overestimate them.
Do not underestimate their power.
Federal agencies like the FBI, IRS, EPA etc. will ruin your life even if you prove them wrong.

[onefast99]

Robertson, a clocker who provided racing officials, bettors and others with workout times for horses, is accused of providing false times in exchange for cash from the trainers, Smith said.


It doesn't seem like a difficult job if you are honest!

[nearco]

Robertson, a clocker who provided racing officials, bettors and others with workout times for horses, is accused of providing false times in exchange for cash from the trainers, Smith said.


It doesn't seem like a difficult job if you are honest!

Why, in the year of our lord 2013, are human beings still officially timing horses?
Ignoring for a minute the complete inaccuracy that is possible with hand timing (have you ever tried it?.. easy to be over by a second either direction), if really opens up everything to human skullduggery.
A simple chip would time it to a hundredth of a second and take the humans out of the equation.

[thaskalos]

Why, in the year of our lord 2013, are human beings still officially timing horses?
Ignoring for a minute the complete inaccuracy that is possible with hand timing (have you ever tried it?.. easy to be over by a second either direction), if really opens up everything to human skullduggery.
A simple chip would time it to a hundredth of a second and take the humans out of the equation.
My question would have to be...are there any more horseplayers out there who think that the timings of these workouts are an important piece of the handicapping puzzle?

[Let's Roll]

Why, in the year of our lord 2013, are human beings still officially timing horses?
Ignoring for a minute the complete inaccuracy that is possible with hand timing (have you ever tried it?.. easy to be over by a second either direction), if really opens up everything to human skullduggery.
A simple chip would time it to a hundredth of a second and take the humans out of the equation.
I'd have to see how that would work, with horses working out different distances, gate workouts, ect. Besides, an accurate account of the workout at the track does not guarantee it gets put in the PP's in a timely manner...I've seen known, published works left out of the DRF.

[pandy]

My question would have to be...are there any more horseplayers out there who think that the timings of these workouts are an important piece of the handicapping puzzle?

It depends on the handicapper. I've some big hits in maiden races where I bet the horse mainly because of the workouts and I'm sure other players have too.

Ron McAnally had a 2yo filly who had several quick works some years back and overall her works seemed very fast when compared to his usual style of working horses. I figured she could run so I made her my best bet and bet her even though McAnally had not won with a firster in years. That afternoon I was watching either HRTV or TVG and they had a guy in the stands doing interviews and he asks McAnally what he thinks of his filly. McAnally says, "I can't remember the last time I won with a firster, but I can tell you that this filly is fast, she can run, so we'll see what happens."

I had bet $40 or so on her but after that interview, which came about a minute before post, I went online and doubled my wager and she won easily at about 22-1 and I hit the exacta, double, and win bet and won over $2,000 on the bet.

[mountainman]

Do not underestimate their power.
Federal agencies like the FBI, IRS, EPA etc. will ruin your life even if you prove them wrong.

I'm sure you're right, sir, but if it took 4 years to ruin Sam Webb, I'm somewhat underwhelmed.

[A. Pineda]

It could be made mandatory by the govt that a security team of let's say several guards per track (who are not actually track employees to avoid any conflict of interest) be hired to monitor video feeds using access control software. The IP cameras of today (such as those made by Axis) are not all that costly and can be configured for event recording i.e. motion detection during off hours etc to DVRs on the network. This would allow the video events to be reviewed and submitted as evidence as needed. Clearly there has to be more restricted access established to protect these horses (and the public), and maybe certain barns should be designated as staging areas for any horses that are scheduled to be running let's say arbitrarily within a 72 hour window that offer a significantly increased security presence.

The problem I have with relying on local FED employees is that they can be corrupted, just like prison guards, border guards, meat inspectors, etc.

[mountainman]

For what it's worth, Pen is known for tight security and prying eyes.

[thaskalos]

I'm sure you're right, sir, but if it took 4 years to ruin Sam Webb, I'm somewhat underwhelmed.

Now that I think of it, mountainman...there was no valid reason for the FBI to rush in the handling of this matter. It wasn't as if it was the FBI's money that was being wagered on these tainted races over the last for years...

[thaskalos]

Now that I think of it, mountainman...there was no valid reason for the FBI to rush in the handling of this matter. It wasn't as if it was the FBI's money that was being wagered on these tainted races over the last for years...

I meant, over the last FOUR years...

[mountainman]

Now that I think of it, mountainman...there was no valid reason for the FBI to rush in the handling of this matter. It wasn't as if it was the FBI's money that was being wagered on these tainted races over the last for years...

Cynicism at it's finest. I wonder who Mr Wells could use as a bargaining chip? The tendrils of this may reach in several directions.

[cj]

My question would have to be...are there any more horseplayers out there who think that the timings of these workouts are an important piece of the handicapping puzzle?

If they were done right, maybe they would be? I don't know. But I think the reason most dismiss them now is because we know the timing is unreliable, at best, and flat out wrong at worst. Or, in this case and I'm sure many others, totally made up.

[Stillriledup]

My question would have to be...are there any more horseplayers out there who think that the timings of these workouts are an important piece of the handicapping puzzle?

Knowing the horse worked is more important than the time. Supposedly, this guy was listing times for horses who never left the barn.

[greengorilla]

The problem with racing in general is there is a lack of educated people running and operating these tracks. This is the fourth scandal and race fixing incident over the last 10 years. Nothing changes there, when my rider used to ride out there, he use to tell me the gate guys were holding horses at the break for so called wise guys and that he didnt want to take mounts there anymore. I hope they fire all those officals responsible for runniong a clean program.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

My question would have to be...are there any more horseplayers out there who think that the timings of these workouts are an important piece of the handicapping puzzle?

IMHO workouts can provide some insight for Grade 1 horses in comeback races. The connections aren't as focused on cashing a bet at a good price since they make hay with the purse money, and sometimes workouts provide insight as to how cranked the horse is for the return race. For almost every other level, workout times mean little, and any decent ones may be tainted in between the clocker's watch and the DRF.

Wish I could bet on the eventual effect of this investigation - my money would be riding on the "little to no effect" selection. Graft and corruption are so prevalent now, it's like living in Italy - southern Italy at that.....

[Stillriledup]

Now that I think of it, mountainman...there was no valid reason for the FBI to rush in the handling of this matter. It wasn't as if it was the FBI's money that was being wagered on these tainted races over the last for years...

But what if they were taking the info and cashing in on it themselves and that's why there was 'no rush' to see justice.?

[nearco]

The problem with racing in general is there is a lack of educated people running and operating these tracks. This is the fourth scandal and race fixing incident over the last 10 years. Nothing changes there, when my rider used to ride out there, he use to tell me the gate guys were holding horses at the break for so called wise guys and that he didnt want to take mounts there anymore. I hope they fire all those officals responsible for runniong a clean program.

That's another one that I don't get. Guys holding horses in the gate.... massive potential to affect outcome of race. Look at racing elsewhere in the world, no one in the gate with the horses. They are not needed.

KjERZEXqD0Y

C-t_gbpGZ2k

2qQbYS0lyvA

[OTM Al]

This thread has gone way over into tin hat land now. We got one guy saying that the gate crews were holding up horses, but no one, trainer, rider or owner came out about it, and another saying federal agents were not following through with prosecutions because they were cashing on the info. Do we really need to go so far to explain why we didn't win?

[lamboguy]

This thread has gone way over into tin hat land now. We got one guy saying that the gate crews were holding up horses, but no one, trainer, rider or owner came out about it, and another saying federal agents were not following through with prosecutions because they were cashing on the info. Do we really need to go so far to explain why we didn't win?in my opinion, while this last episode is not a good one, its not a normal thing for the U.S. Attorney's office and FBI to get involved in and spend 4 years of their time chasing down stupid people that don't have much money to begin with. 2 things could be going on, 1. there is more to this case than what we have heard so far. 2. there might have been numerous complaints about problems at Penn National that have been swept under the rug by the Stewards and State Police of Pennsylvania. i know that is what they did to me when all i wanted as a licensed owner was an investigation and a hearing. i received neither. i thought i had a total legitimate beef. what happened about a year later was that the beef i had against the trainer got thrown of the race track for a different matter. it took them 2 weeks to hear that other matter and mine they told me they had no time for. they ran me around in circles and wore me out.

[mountainman]

That's another one that I don't get. Guys holding horses in the gate.... massive potential to affect outcome of race. Look at racing elsewhere in the world, no one in the gate with the horses. They are not needed.

KjERZEXqD0Y

C-t_gbpGZ2k

2qQbYS0lyvA

It depends on the horse. Official starters keep meticulous notes on the incompass system such as "hands on" or "hands off," which are tailored to the animal's idiosyncracies and would apply in this instance.

By the way, there are few racetrack rumors I haven't heard, however implausible, during my tenure as an official, but I have NEVER caught whiff of one peep contending that any gate handler purposefully compromised any horse.

[craigbraddick]

I know change is seen by many in the sport as a cause of cancer, leprosy, bubonic plague, world hunger, etc. but why do we still have people even holding horses in the gate when nowhere else in the civilized world sees it as essential?

Craig

[chadk66]

It depends on the horse. Official starters keep meticulous notes on the incompass system such as "hands on" or "hands off," which are tailored to the animal's idiosyncracies and would apply in this instance.

By the way, there are few racetrack rumors I haven't heard, however implausible, during my tenure as an official, but I have NEVER caught whiff of one peep contending that any gate handler purposefully compromised any horse.
I can tell you with 100% certainty it happened to one of my horses at thistledown in 86'

[cj]

I can tell you with 100% certainty it happened to one of my horses at thistledown in 86'

You know your horse was held INTENTIONALLY 27 years ago?

[the little guy]

You know your horse was held INTENTIONALLY 27 years ago?

1986 was a very memorable year at Thistledown.

[mountainman]

I can tell you with 100% certainty it happened to one of my horses at thistledown in 86'

Taking a wild guess you aren't much on the whole "let bygones be bygones" thing..lol...

[Saratoga_Mike]

You know your horse was held INTENTIONALLY 27 years ago?

Presumably such an occurrence would be extremely rare, so why would it surprise you if he remembered it?

[cj]

Presumably such an occurrence would be extremely rare, so why would it surprise you if he remembered it?

I'm not surprised he remembers it if he truly believes it. I'm just not sure how he could possibly know it to be true...100% true. You need to give details if you are going to make statements like that.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm not surprised he remembers it if he truly believes it. I'm just not sure how he could possibly know it to be true...100% true. You need to give details if you are going to make statements like that.

I'd guess the jock told him, and he believed the jockey. I'm sure he'll tell us????

[classhandicapper]

My question would have to be...are there any more horseplayers out there who think that the timings of these workouts are an important piece of the handicapping puzzle?

I'm sure there are games being played and also honest mistakes being made that make workout information less than ideal (especially at minor tracks), but when it comes to major horses at major tracks, workout information can be decisive for me in certain circumstances. It's not often, but I have a handful of applications that have been useful to me for years.

[beatsworking]

I have NEVER caught whiff of one peep contending that any gate handler purposefully compromised any horse.

FYI, The feds alleged the whole gate crew was bribed in the 2010 All American finals in Ruidoso. http://www.koat.com/news/sports/Report-Big-money-horse-race-may-have-been-rigged/-/9153850/15173690/-/14nv3lgz/-/index.html

[mountainman]

I'd guess the jock told him, and he believed the jockey.

That's the 100% certainty Chad referred to??

[mountainman]

FYI, The feds alleged the whole gate crew was bribed in the 2010 All American finals in Ruidoso. http://www.koat.com/news/sports/Report-Big-money-horse-race-may-have-been-rigged/-/9153850/15173690/-/14nv3lgz/-/index.html

and the blacksox no doubt fixed that series..last time i checked, this was a t-bred forum..no intent to be hostile here, and do appreciate the info...

[Saratoga_Mike]

That's the 100% certainty Chad referred to??

I don't know, but there are jockeys who are very honest. I've had a jockey come back after a race and say, "I rode horribly. I'm sorry about that." If this jockey said to me there was an issue in the gate, I would believe him.

[mountainman]

I don't know, but there are jockeys who are very honest. I've had a jockey come back after a race and say, "I rode horribly. I'm sorry about that." If this jockey said to me there was an issue in the gate, I would believe him.

fair enough, mike..i just don't roll like that..given chad's guarantee, would need more proof

[cj]

I don't know, but there are jockeys who are very honest. I've had a jockey come back after a race and say, "I rode horribly. I'm sorry about that." If this jockey said to me there was an issue in the gate, I would believe him.

An issue, sure, but 100% certain the gate guy intentionally held a horse?

[Saratoga_Mike]

An issue, sure, but 100% certain the gate guy intentionally held a horse?

If the gate snapped open and the gate guy wouldn't let go, it's reasonable to assume he was holding the horse (i.e., reasonable inference in legal parlance). I've never seen this happen, but it doesn't seem that implausible to me.

[Saratoga_Mike]

fair enough, mike..i just don't roll like that..given chad's guarantee, would need more proof

I'm a very skeptical person, believe it or not. But if someone is honest to a fault with me over time (to their own detriment), I'm going to believe them when they tell me something.

[cj]

If the gate snapped open and the gate guy wouldn't let go, it's reasonable to assume he was holding the horse (i.e., reasonable inference in legal parlance). I've never seen this happen, but it doesn't seem that implausible to me.

I've seen several horses scratched after the race because the gate guy didn't let go when he should. It isn't common, but not exactly rare either.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I've seen several horses scratched after the race because the gate guy didn't let go when he should. It isn't common, but not exactly rare either.

I've obviously seen gate malfunctions, but I haven't seen what you describe happen (beyond an unruly horse of course). What track did it happen at? I have a guess!

[mountainman]

I'm a very skeptical person, believe it or not. But if someone is honest to a fault with me over time (to their own detriment), I'm going to believe them when they tell me something.

Who says chad's jock was correct to begin with? Honest, maybe. But correct abt the handler's intentions? That requires ANOTHER, very DIFFERENT leap of faith- and concerning an incident that occurred nearly 3 decades ago. Tenuous stuff when a "guarantee" has been issued.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Who says chad's jock was correct to begin with? Honest, maybe. But correct abt the handler's intentions? That requires ANOTHER, very DIFFERENT leap of faith- and concerning an incident that occurred nearly 3 decades ago. Tenuous stuff when a "guarantee" has been issued.

See post 143 - in any case, we probably just see it differently, not a big deal.

[proximity]

many, if not all owners know EXACTLY what is going on.

maybe i'm wrong, but i never thought of the big pen owner as a juice owner, maybe more of a coattail rider. maybe i'm biased because i like the guy's restaurants? but understand that some people have smarts real good and are going to ask questions. questions like for 2011 you're a 30% owner :rolleyes: and pretty much suddenly it's late 2013 and you've pretty much dropped out of this incredibly successful venture to enter the world of (??) horse breeding??

change is the only constant i guess. :rolleyes:

** want to add that this isn't the big mid atlantic (and wells) owner that i'm suspicious of.

[Relwob Owner]

maybe i'm wrong, but i never thought of the big pen owner as a juice owner, maybe more of a coattail rider. maybe i'm biased because i like the guy's restaurants? but understand that some people have smarts real good and are going to ask questions. questions like for 2011 you're a 30% owner :rolleyes: and pretty much suddenly it's late 2013 and you've pretty much dropped out of this incredibly successful venture to enter the world of (??) horse breeding??

change is the only constant i guess. :rolleyes:

** want to add that this isn't the big mid atlantic (and wells) owner that i'm suspicious of.


I was just referring to owners in general, where people object to tying the owners to punishment with the excuse that owners "don't know whats going on" and supposedly get unfairly punished when the trainers get popped.

You are more than a Penn expert than I and I am frankly not sure what owner you are referencing. I am just referring to owners who use several high percentage trainers and can just go on to the next one when one trainer gets caught. I think we both know of some of these types of owners. ;)

[proximity]

You are more than a Penn expert than I and I am frankly not sure what owner you are referencing. I am just referring to owners who use several high percentage trainers and can just go on to the next one when one trainer gets caught. I think we both know of some of these types of owners. ;)

before they ran me out of the game i was more into full card simulcasting, so i wouldn't say i'm a pen expert (tonyk@hsh would be a true pen expert on here), but today as a casual fan i don't see any donnie brown horses running? 30% owner just two years ago???????? i'm not even saying this guy was a juice owner (like the big md/wv owner) but it is just a natural question that any "fan" with half a brain is going to think of.

also we're supposed to be naive and believe mr wells just came into the game and started juicing a couple horses in the last year or two????? :rolleyes:
and that only he prospered from his sins and that all will be well(s) :rolleyes: when he's gone????

[Relwob Owner]

before they ran me out of the game i was more into full card simulcasting, so i wouldn't say i'm a pen expert (tonyk@hsh would be a true pen expert on here), but today as a casual fan i don't see any donnie brown horses running? 30% owner just two years ago???????? i'm not even saying this guy was a juice owner (like the big md/wv owner) but it is just a natural question that any "fan" with half a brain is going to think of.

also we're supposed to be naive and believe mr wells just came into the game and started juicing a couple horses in the last year or two????? :rolleyes:
and that only he prospered from his sins and that all will be well(s) :rolleyes: when he's gone????


Yeah, its interesting how many people say the bettors were so badly cheated. While I think that has some merit, the bettors knew these outfits had high percentages and could bet accordingly. The people who really got cheated were the owners and trainers of all of the other horses that had to compete against the rule breakers......and then the owners of the horses associated with the cheating get to keep on with business as usual and aren't in any trouble and don't have to give back a dime.

[lamboguy]

before they ran me out of the game i was more into full card simulcasting, so i wouldn't say i'm a pen expert (tonyk@hsh would be a true pen expert on here), but today as a casual fan i don't see any donnie brown horses running? 30% owner just two years ago???????? i'm not even saying this guy was a juice owner (like the big md/wv owner) but it is just a natural question that any "fan" with half a brain is going to think of.

also we're supposed to be naive and believe mr wells just came into the game and started juicing a couple horses in the last year or two????? :rolleyes:
and that only he prospered from his sins and that all will be well(s) :rolleyes: when he's gone????
they never said what the drugs were. Rogers said she was giving the horse lasix, and my guess Wells was tapping his horse the day of the race. of course neither are supposed to have a syringe and neither are supposed to tap or administer lasix. but there must be more to the case that is not public yet.

[cj]

Yeah, its interesting how many people say the bettors were so badly cheated. While I think that has some merit, the bettors knew these outfits had high percentages and could bet accordingly. The people who really got cheated were the owners and trainers of all of the other horses that had to compete against the rule breakers......and then the owners of the horses associated with the cheating get to keep on with business as usual and aren't in any trouble and don't have to give back a dime.

Pretty good chance these guys were betting too, which is stealing from bettors. Particularly, and I would bet anything this happens, if they don't always "prepare" the same for every race.

[lamboguy]

Pretty good chance these guys were betting too, which is stealing from bettors. Particularly, and I would bet anything this happens, if they don't always "prepare" the same for every race. the arrest of the clocker might have to do with the gambling aspect. but the indictment didn't say that they were tied to that particular aspect. i say there is probably a lot more to the case with bigger fish to fry. usually in most federal cases like this, there is either a money laundering charge or tax evasion, this is missing on this one with these defendants.

[Maximillion]

What would the motivation be for "making-up" workouts?
(besides the pulled up/didnt finish horses requiring a workout etc.)

Its probably something obvious that Im just missing...but other than the above and the potential to run a completely unsound horse (unable to work) is there something else Im missing?

[proximity]

the arrest of the clocker might have to do with the gambling aspect. .

there may have been some questionable claims made based off this information too. i don't know anything about the claiming game and as a gambler i admit i really didn't use pen workout info too much. but the clocker had a responsibility to provide accurate info to those who wanted it and imo the track should have periodically been checking his work for accuracy as well(s).

[Relwob Owner]

Pretty good chance these guys were betting too, which is stealing from bettors. Particularly, and I would bet anything this happens, if they don't always "prepare" the same for every race.


Fair point from the perspective of the bettors, especially the latter in terms of not "preparing" the same way for every race

[proximity]

in the case of the clocker, i imagine the vegas lawyer will bring up that the old clerk of scales didn't go to prison and is, in fact, still employed at pen.

[johnhannibalsmith]

What would the motivation be for "making-up" workouts?
(besides the pulled up/didnt finish horses requiring a workout etc.)

Its probably something obvious that Im just missing...but other than the above and the potential to run a completely unsound horse (unable to work) is there something else Im missing?

Maybe horses that train on the farm and hadn't run in x number of days so they needed an official work to enter.

[Stillriledup]

Maybe horses that train on the farm and hadn't run in x number of days so they needed an official work to enter.

Right, this makes sense. A lot of times if a horse works and the Association clockers don't get a time, they'll just ask the trainer and go on his word.

There was a thread here a while back about Rudy Rodriguez and the horse Vykack, supposedly the horse never worked and Rudy reported a time to the clockers, but there was controversy is to whether or not the horse actually showed up. Not sure what the outcome of the investigation was, but that was an example of a clocker just trusting the trainer to report the proper information.

[turninforhome10]

Maybe horses that train on the farm and hadn't run in x number of days so they needed an official work to enter.
Lets's say you have a pretty nice maiden but you are going to run him for a tag first out and don't want to loose him. You paid the clocker to give you a slow work. On the other hand if you have a maiden with problems and want to loose him, you have the clocker give you a fast work. You could also work a horse and get a stellar work and report it as another horse. Manipulating workouts goes on every day at a track somewhere, IMHO. The clocker at Penn was arrogant and figured he was bulletproof. This has been going on since I was there in 2004 and 2005.

[lamboguy]

the time of the work alone don't mean to much. i have seen plenty of slow horses work in 35, that couldn't beat a horse in the afternoon. its how you work, not how fast that means anything.

[outofthebox]

There are also many training facilities that are able to turn in works to Equibase that have no official clockers actually timing them. They go by the word of the person turning them in...

[greengorilla]

First off, most works are very unreliable, especially with big barns with lots of horses. The reason for this is to help protect your better horses from being claimed. And trick your competitors into claiming the rats in your barn. Perfect example is while agenting in florida back in 2011, I saw a good friend of mine work a horse under her 6250clmrs name when in reality it was a 25000clmr. The horse worked in 47 for 4/8s. making her 6250clm look like a star and not letting competing trainers know just how well her 25000clm was going. This is how most trainers mask works. So my advice to handicappers and horsemen, is if you dont clock the horse yourself and know for sure the horse on conformation and identity from past performances. Dont trust the works.

[greengorilla]

First off anyone who has been in this game long enough knows the three best ways to fix a race. 1. Acepropozene any filly or mare before the race, very few vets if any can tell when fillys and mares are aced. And horses that are aced dont run a lick. 2. Over exercise the horse leading into the race. 3. Gate guy holds the horse at the gate. And if you want to make sure the horse doesn't win you could apply all three. Sp basically if people want to cheat its not all that hard to do. But I think most races overall are pretty straight.

[Stillriledup]

First off anyone who has been in this game long enough knows the three best ways to fix a race. 1. Acepropozene any filly or mare before the race, very few vets if any can tell when fillys and mares are aced. And horses that are aced dont run a lick. 2. Over exercise the horse leading into the race. 3. Gate guy holds the horse at the gate. And if you want to make sure the horse doesn't win you could apply all three. Sp basically if people want to cheat its not all that hard to do. But I think most races overall are pretty straight.

Is there some difference between Aceing a filly vs a colt/gelding?
Thanks GG.

[thaskalos]

First off anyone who has been in this game long enough knows the three best ways to fix a race. 1. Acepropozene any filly or mare before the race, very few vets if any can tell when fillys and mares are aced. And horses that are aced dont run a lick. 2. Over exercise the horse leading into the race. 3. Gate guy holds the horse at the gate. And if you want to make sure the horse doesn't win you could apply all three. Sp basically if people want to cheat its not all that hard to do. But I think most races overall are pretty straight.

If cheating is "not all that hard to do"...then what reason do we have to think that "most races overall are pretty straight"?

[proximity]

If cheating is "not all that hard to do"...then what reason do we have to think that "most races overall are pretty straight"?

the (only) good thing about super-trainers is that they win races, period. and single and low double digit connections running against them aren't stiffing fit and ready horses lest their percentages drop so low that no owner will take them seriously.

[Stillriledup]

the (only) good thing about super-trainers is that they win races, period. and single and low double digit connections running against them aren't stiffing fit and ready horses lest their percentages drop so low that no owner will take them seriously.

Why is it good that its easy for anyone to be able to predict when these people are going to win? Isnt the gist of the game to card races where the winner isnt obvious? I know i personally like betting on races where humans arent much of a factor and the horses appear evenly matched. When it becomes "trainer racing" that's where i turn the page and search for an actual HORSE race to bet on.

[proximity]

Why is it good that its easy for anyone to be able to predict when these people are going to win? Isnt the gist of the game to card races where the winner isnt obvious? I know i personally like betting on races where humans arent much of a factor and the horses appear evenly matched. When it becomes "trainer racing" that's where i turn the page and search for an actual HORSE race to bet on.

from a "horse stiffing" perspective it is good..... they are shooting 100% of the time. they're raking in big slots purses, not setting up horses for bets.

overall of course, supers certainly are bad for the game as their horses eat up too much of the takeout and destroy overlays that come with competitive racing.

[Stillriledup]

from a "horse stiffing" perspective it is good..... they are shooting 100% of the time. they're raking in big slots purses, not setting up horses for bets.

overall of course, supers certainly are bad for the game as their horses eat up too much of the takeout and destroy overlays that come with competitive racing.

I'm a non favorites player for the most part, i would actually love it if a trainer "Stiffed" a 4-5 shot, i might be able to make a giant score on a tri or super if that heavy chalk was OTB.

[Saratoga_Mike]

First off anyone who has been in this game long enough knows the three best ways to fix a race. 1. Acepropozene any filly or mare before the race, very few vets if any can tell when fillys and mares are aced. And horses that are aced dont run a lick. 2. Over exercise the horse leading into the race. 3. Gate guy holds the horse at the gate. And if you want to make sure the horse doesn't win you could apply all three. Sp basically if people want to cheat its not all that hard to do. But I think most races overall are pretty straight.

...should work fine until the horse comes up positive on a random test or a test that is given b/c a fav runs lousy

[badcompany]

Interesting theory.....the Penn folks also swept out Scooter Davis earlier this year as well up at CT. They do seem to be pretty proactive in these things and guess I just hope it is for the right reasons.


To give everyone an idea about how much money is being throw down the toilet, consider the Meadows Harness Track. It does an average daily all-source handle of about 500k for 15-16 races, and gives out about 150k in purse money per card.

The takeout doesn't even cover the purse money, much less the costs of running the track.

[lamboguy]

To give everyone an idea about how much money is being throw down the toilet, consider the Meadows Harness Track. It does an average daily all-source handle of about 500k for 15-16 races, and gives out about 150k in purse money per card.

The takeout doesn't even cover the purse money, much less the costs of running the track.the takeout is probably under $20,000 a day. most of their money comes in from simulcast and adw just like most tracks.

to be a functional business, they might need $15 million a day in handle, which is never going to happen the way the business is run.

we all know that in racing the horse and rider always should come first, until that day comes, handles keep declining.

[turninforhome10]

I'm a non favorites player for the most part, i would actually love it if a trainer "Stiffed" a 4-5 shot, i might be able to make a giant score on a tri or super if that heavy chalk was OTB.
So the person who is most persistent about corruption would also bet a "stiff" if they could to rack a big payoff? Interesting.
Wonder how many players would have "benefited" from being in the know if they had the inside knowledge from Penn?

P.S. Sorry about the bad information from Twitter- PA. The source is pretty reliable (usually). Apologies to the party's mentioned and glad to see it edited.
Thanks

[cj]

To give everyone an idea about how much money is being throw down the toilet, consider the Meadows Harness Track. It does an average daily all-source handle of about 500k for 15-16 races, and gives out about 150k in purse money per card.

The takeout doesn't even cover the purse money, much less the costs of running the track.

That happens at many slots tracks.

[nearco]

Ace is easily testable. You would have to be dumb to give it to horse before a race. You would have to be a very dumb jockey to knowingly to get on a horse that had been ace'd... a wreck waiting to happen.

[turninforhome10]

the (only) good thing about super-trainers is that they win races, period. and single and low double digit connections running against them aren't stiffing fit and ready horses lest their percentages drop so low that no owner will take them seriously.
I really wish someone would do a study and see what percentage of wins by these super-trainers are just conditional claiming horses. I see the super trainers as trainers that are connected with big owners with deep pockets that can afford to claim and layoff the horse possibly at low key training center, good for the horses to freshen up and bring them back for similar conditions they were claimed for or less. Get the condition and horse gets claimed. That's how you win races with multiple horses. I cannot speak of the drug use and tampering with the animal in any way chemically, but a fresh horse can be a happy horse ready for a big effort. Watched Maggi Moss do it at Prairie Meadows. 1st woman to lead the owners standings in wins ever. Made Dick Clark(trainer) look like a monster. If you ran your horse to cheap, they were taken, no favoritism. Ran back at similar conditions and win.

How many times have we talked of Ness and Wells and Beattie in the context of great horses. Wells maybe with the consecutive winning gelding who I am struggling to remember.

[turninforhome10]

Ace is easily testable. You would have to be dumb to give it to horse before a race. You would have to be a very dumb jockey to knowingly to get on a horse that had been ace'd... a wreck waiting to happen.
Amen.

Back in the 70's there was rumor of vets fixing races with insulin at a certain midwest track. Stop a horse cold.

[mountainman]

Any reputable starter leaves his crew in the dark until almost post time. Read this carefully tin-foil-hat boys: THEY DON'T KNOW IN ADVANCE WHICH HORSE THEY WILL BE HANDLING.

In fact, several jurisdictions used to have OFFICIAL REGULATIONS MANDATING that ast starters receive their assignments no sooner than 1 or 2 minutes out.

As distasteful as actual knowlege and facts might be to certain posters..poof, there went the "just get a gate guy to hold him" theory of race fixing.

Unless of course, logic never enters your thinking, in which case simply dial 1-800-s-l-o-g-a-t-e, and a cooperative ast starter, eager to risk his career (and dead certain he can escape the scrutiny of co-workers and head-on replays) for a few shillings will be more than happy to strong-arm and detain the horse of your choice.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I really wish someone would do a study and see what percentage of wins by these super-trainers are just conditional claiming horses. I see the super trainers as trainers that are connected with big owners with deep pockets that can afford to claim and layoff the horse possibly at low key training center, good for the horses to freshen up and bring them back for similar conditions they were claimed for or less. Get the condition and horse gets claimed. That's how you win races with multiple horses. I cannot speak of the drug use and tampering with the animal in any way chemically, but a fresh horse can be a happy horse ready for a big effort. Watched Maggi Moss do it at Prairie Meadows. 1st woman to lead the owners standings in wins ever. Made Dick Clark(trainer) look like a monster. If you ran your horse to cheap, they were taken, no favoritism. Ran back at similar conditions and win.

How many times have we talked of Ness and Wells and Beattie in the context of great horses. Wells maybe with the consecutive winning gelding who I am struggling to remember.

If this were the case, the horses wouldn't fall apart when they're claimed away from the super-trainers.

[turninforhome10]

If this were the case, the horses wouldn't fall apart when they're claimed away from the super-trainers.
Are they falling apart or running out of lifetime and time conditions?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Are they falling apart or running out of lifetime and time conditions?

I haven't ck'd in awhile - you can go to Formulator and find the "claimed from stats."

[Robert Goren]

If this were the case, the horses wouldn't fall apart when they're claimed away from the super-trainers.Amazingly enough, super trainers claim from each other a lot or at least Jacobson and Rudy do in NY.

[Relwob Owner]

Are they falling apart or running out of lifetime and time conditions?


Take a look at when horses have been claimed away from supertrainers(and not by another super trainer) and I think it will be clear that their performances got worse. One of the biggest advantages the supertrainers have is that they can drop their horses, win and not get claimed because no one in their right mind will claim off of them.

[lamboguy]

i have a trainer that is a super trainer that doesn't use any fancy drugs and no living human can improve off that guy. i have never seen a harder worker in this game. most trainers leave the barn by 10:00 a.m. he is in his barn at 6:00 p,m.

the guy has only won at a 40% win rate the last 5 years and has graded stake winners. never one positive of anything. the man does his own shoeing and never has a vet in for anything except for pre race lasix. no banamine,bute, tapping or shockwave. but what he does have on the menu is swimming every day and up an down hills. he never sends a horse to run that is not dead fit, and his horses race at 10 years of age and beyond.

[Exotic1]

i have a trainer that is a super trainer that doesn't use any fancy drugs and no living human can improve off that guy. i have never seen a harder worker in this game. most trainers leave the barn by 10:00 a.m. he is in his barn at 6:00 p,m.

the guy has only won at a 40% win rate the last 5 years and has graded stake winners. never one positive of anything. the man does his own shoeing and never has a vet in for anything except for pre race lasix. no banamine,bute, tapping or shockwave. but what he does have on the menu is swimming every day and up an down hills. he never sends a horse to run that is not dead fit, and his horses race at 10 years of age and beyond.

What about a "back guy" - does he do the chiropractic thing?

Swimming and jogging, nice life.

[lamboguy]

What about a "back guy" - does he do the chiropractic thing?

Swimming and jogging, nice life.he does plenty of that. if you had to pay for the work he does on a horse, you couldn't afford it. he does some acupuncture as well. he is good at figuring out what is bothering the horse, lots of times it not obvious to most. i had the 2 best vets in New York look at my horse and they both came up with the very same diagnosis, they said that my horse had a freaky muscle pull in between her chest and shoulder and there was nothing that could be done. i moved the horse away from New York to this guy and now this filly is a monster. she still has to prove herself on the race track but i think she is something special now.

[Saratoga_Mike]

i have a trainer that is a super trainer that doesn't use any fancy drugs and no living human can improve off that guy. i have never seen a harder worker in this game. most trainers leave the barn by 10:00 a.m. he is in his barn at 6:00 p,m.

the guy has only won at a 40% win rate the last 5 years and has graded stake winners. never one positive of anything. the man does his own shoeing and never has a vet in for anything except for pre race lasix. no banamine,bute, tapping or shockwave. but what he does have on the menu is swimming every day and up an down hills. he never sends a horse to run that is not dead fit, and his horses race at 10 years of age and beyond.

Why does he race primarily at MNR and smaller tracks? This skill set would certainly be in high demand at the best tracks.

[chadk66]

he does plenty of that. if you had to pay for the work he does on a horse, you couldn't afford it. he does some acupuncture as well. he is good at figuring out what is bothering the horse, lots of times it not obvious to most. i had the 2 best vets in New York look at my horse and they both came up with the very same diagnosis, they said that my horse had a freaky muscle pull in between her chest and shoulder and there was nothing that could be done. i moved the horse away from New York to this guy and now this filly is a monster. she still has to prove herself on the race track but i think she is something special now.
keep us posted on how she does. sounds like the guy is a keeper and somebody to send a horse or two to.

[lamboguy]

Why does he race primarily at MNR and smaller tracks? This skill set would certainly be in high demand at the best tracks.he runs at Presque Isle, Keeneland, Churchill, and Parx when he has the right horses. the guy buys 6 horse package deals for under $2000, straightens them out and wins bunch's of races.

he has a client that had horses with top trainer's like Pletcher, Amos, Kenneally, and improves off of all of them. it took his client 4 years to figure out that he can't make ten cents with those big trainers. in 2014 he is coming out loaded with bear.

[lamboguy]

keep us posted on how she does. sounds like the guy is a keeper and somebody to send a horse or two to.he doesn't take on to many clients. i am lucky that he will take a few horses from me, and they are usually the kind that have problems that other trainers can't seem to do anything with. his other client is a doctor that has a partner that was a player on an Oakland Raider Superbowl team. the doctor fixed his son up when he was very sick, so he has stuck with this client. i have mostly New York breds that if i have to run them, i want them in New York. if we have a good 2 year old this year after Keeneland, we will send some to him.

for a horse man, he is a very straight forward honest guy

[onefast99]

Take a look at when horses have been claimed away from supertrainers(and not by another super trainer) and I think it will be clear that their performances got worse. One of the biggest advantages the supertrainers have is that they can drop their horses, win and not get claimed because no one in their right mind will claim off of them.
I did and got burned, 40k claimer at MP from the Pletcher barn 3 races later the horse broke down, not Pletchers fault at all, but a bad claim on my end.

[Saratoga_Mike]

he runs at Presque Isle, Keeneland, Churchill, and Parx when he has the right horses. the guy buys 6 horse package deals for under $2000, straightens them out and wins bunch's of races.

he has a client that had horses with top trainer's like Pletcher, Amos, Kenneally, and improves off of all of them. it took his client 4 years to figure out that he can't make ten cents with those big trainers. in 2014 he is coming out loaded with bear.

I'm very, very skeptical, but I want to offer you a belated thank you. I had $50 win on his turf horse at PRX a few months back. The horse paid around $60 to win (I never catch $60 winners...ever). I never would have bet the horse if you hadn't talked about this guy on here in the past.

[lamboguy]

I'm very, very skeptical, but I want to offer you a belated thank you. I had $50 win on his turf horse at PRX a few months back. The horse paid around $60 to win (I never catch $60 winners...ever). I never would have bet the horse if you hadn't talked about this guy on here in the past.they have a yearling in training now that they have been offered big money for and they have turned it down. the horse is out of a grade 1 mare, and its the same stallion as Storm Of The Century. the only thing is that horse hasn't thrown anything that has gone long yet. but he throws runners. he's not a commercial stallion, so the only people that would go to him are those that plan to race.

[Stillriledup]

So the person who is most persistent about corruption would also bet a "stiff" if they could to rack a big payoff? Interesting.
Wonder how many players would have "benefited" from being in the know if they had the inside knowledge from Penn?

P.S. Sorry about the bad information from Twitter- PA. The source is pretty reliable (usually). Apologies to the party's mentioned and glad to see it edited.
Thanks

That's not what i'm saying. You're suggesting i would know about the stiff in advance and bet accordingly. I'm saying that if a trainer would stiff one of his 4-5 shots that i just happened to bet against, i would make money. That's all i was saying, don't twist my words around.

[Stillriledup]

Amazingly enough, super trainers claim from each other a lot or at least Jacobson and Rudy do in NY.

They can claim from each other because they know that they only have to win one race to make a profit. After that, they can send the horse to Finger Lakes or Suffolk to run for 5k.

If you are at a place where you need to win 2 or 3 races to "get out" on the horse, people arent going to be claiming off the elite supertrainers, but when you only need to win one race to show a profit, its worth the shot, esp if you have deep pockets.

[proximity]

they still have conditional claiming races at penn national.

2011's leading trainer hit at 27%, but is now down to 14%.

2012's leading trainer is still winning at a good %, but has only 15 winners at pen compared to 83 last year. (did they give this guy the roses and diamond watch for his training title?)

meanwhile excitement is building for tomorrow's 250k fabulous strike!!

[Stillriledup]

They should have updated trainer standings starting the day of the arrests, be interesting to see if the "haves" are still the "haves".

[sally]

Has anybody read the piece on Paulick about Michael Gill's take on this? Very interesting in light of what's happened, I think...

I'll try to link it (not sure if I'm doing this right)

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/gill-what-is-more-controversial-than-telling-the-truth/


I haven't noticed this anywhere...

[proximity]

MAYBE GILL BROTHER JAMES GILL POST HERE AGAIN AND UPDATE US? MAYBE GIVE UPDATE ON COLE NORMAN? :eek:

[Stillriledup]

MAYBE GILL BROTHER JAMES GILL POST HERE AGAIN AND UPDATE US? MAYBE GIVE UPDATE ON COLE NORMAN? :eek:

Is your "shouting" kind of an endearing way of saying you miss James? :D

[Rise Over Run]

So right in the middle of this 4 year investigation, David Wells (the former Mr. Stephanie Beattie) testified at a grand jury hearing in Dauphin County about the President of the Pennsylvania Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association, trainer Stephanie Beattie, administering electric shocks to horses prior to races to make them run faster. The whole Penn racing scene deserves it's own reality show....


http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/updated-trainer-beattie-denies-cheating-allegations-fbi-probing-penn-national/


From the article.... "The Paulick Report has also learned that while the grand jury investigation may be over, agents for the Federal Bureau of Investigation are now looking into several matters at Penn National and have begun conducting interviews with individuals."


Anybody who puts money into the Penn pools deserves the losses they get. Any guesses on how long the NYRA/Penn Pick 4 stays around? Was that only for Belmont or is is still around with the switch to the Big A?

[proximity]

Is your "shouting" kind of an endearing way of saying you miss James? :D

you're right, it was only his user name, not his posts that were all caps. :bang:

like the great juice trainers of the 2000s, i'm beginning to fade as a poster. :(

[MJC922]

Any reputable starter leaves his crew in the dark until almost post time. Read this carefully tin-foil-hat boys: THEY DON'T KNOW IN ADVANCE WHICH HORSE THEY WILL BE HANDLING.

In fact, several jurisdictions used to have OFFICIAL REGULATIONS MANDATING that ast starters receive their assignments no sooner than 1 or 2 minutes out.

As distasteful as actual knowlege and facts might be to certain posters..poof, there went the "just get a gate guy to hold him" theory of race fixing.

Unless of course, logic never enters your thinking, in which case simply dial 1-800-s-l-o-g-a-t-e, and a cooperative ast starter, eager to risk his career (and dead certain he can escape the scrutiny of co-workers and head-on replays) for a few shillings will be more than happy to strong-arm and detain the horse of your choice.

It might depend where you are, I can't speak for Pen or Mountaineer. As a close observer for years on track IMO there was a lot going on in my neck of the woods during the 90's and I doubt it has gotten any better lately. That whole crew stood in the lower grand and did nothing but hang out with a few big gamblers between races. When two speeds are in a triple and one regularly keeps getting off a little too slow and off the board, can't help but wonder, and I don't think it takes much to get a speed horse off a step slow. If there's any money to be made cheating it's sad to say but it's happening somewhere. I'm not saying people are always doing these things willingly either.

[greengorilla]

Vets can detect a aced horse in geldings or colts in the paddock due to temperment and behavior patterns. Female and male horses are very different in there behavior patterns. Its nearly impossible in fillys and mares to determine if a female horse has been aced, due to there mental inconsistencies. Hope this answered your question.

[greengorilla]

The best drug on the market currently to increase a horses performance is ITTP or otherwise known as Myoinositoltrispyrophosphate. It causes red blood cells to produce 600 times more oxygen in the blood stream. Horses run like the wind on this stuff. There is currently no detectable test for this drug and many top notch trainers have been buying this med from China and Ukraine. You administer it orally and the results last a full seven day. This is the real deal.

[Milkshaker]

A few years back I was with a licensed owner on the backstretch at Tampa Bay Downs at the end of a racing day. Before we left, he said he had to detour the car to "run a little errand."

We drove to the end of the starting chute adjacent to the backstretch where all the gate crew guys were hanging out after the races.

The owner dropped off a case of Budweiser. He said it was his way of "tipping" the crew in advance while also reminding them that he had horses in the next day.

He laughed it off as a small cost of doing business, and said it was a remarkably cheap form of insurance to make sure his horses got fair starts.

He said this was a routine errand for him, and that it was perilous at TBD to be known as a "non-tipping" horseman.

[Stillriledup]

Wow, awesome posts 207 thru 209, great stuff!

[PaceAdvantage]

i have a trainer that is a super trainer that doesn't use any fancy drugs and no living human can improve off that guy. i have never seen a harder worker in this game. most trainers leave the barn by 10:00 a.m. he is in his barn at 6:00 p,m.

the guy has only won at a 40% win rate the last 5 years and has graded stake winners. never one positive of anything. the man does his own shoeing and never has a vet in for anything except for pre race lasix. no banamine,bute, tapping or shockwave. but what he does have on the menu is swimming every day and up an down hills. he never sends a horse to run that is not dead fit, and his horses race at 10 years of age and beyond.He's "the most interesting trainer in the world."

[johnhannibalsmith]

He's "the most interesting trainer in the world."

:lol: :lol:

That was good. I can't help but read it in that voice now.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

The owner dropped off a case of Budweiser. He said it was his way of "tipping" the crew in advance while also reminding them that he had horses in the next day.

He laughed it off as a small cost of doing business, and said it was a remarkably cheap form of insurance to make sure his horses got fair starts.

He said this was a routine errand for him, and that it was perilous at TBD to be known as a "non-tipping" horseman.

I've bought a lot of cases of beer, and don't even drink. :D

[PaceAdvantage]

So right in the middle of this 4 year investigation, David Wells (the former Mr. Stephanie Beattie) testified at a grand jury hearing in Dauphin County about the President of the Pennsylvania Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association, trainer Stephanie Beattie, administering electric shocks to horses prior to races to make them run faster. The whole Penn racing scene deserves it's own reality show....


http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/updated-trainer-beattie-denies-cheating-allegations-fbi-probing-penn-national/And some doubted me when I posted not too long ago that shocking horses during a race and during training was more common then they think.

[nijinski]

A few years back I was with a licensed owner on the backstretch at Tampa Bay Downs at the end of a racing day. Before we left, he said he had to detour the car to "run a little errand."

We drove to the end of the starting chute adjacent to the backstretch where all the gate crew guys were hanging out after the races.

The owner dropped off a case of Budweiser. He said it was his way of "tipping" the crew in advance while also reminding them that he had horses in the next day.

He laughed it off as a small cost of doing business, and said it was a remarkably cheap form of insurance to make sure his horses got fair starts.

He said this was a routine errand for him, and that it was perilous at TBD to be known as a "non-tipping" horseman.

Reminds me of the Asmussen gate investigation .. When Pyro had his own personal starter in the Derby . Didn't help :D .

[thaskalos]

And some doubted me when I posted not too long ago that shocking horses during a race and during training was more common then they think.

It had to be some trainer...

[badcompany]

He's "the most interesting trainer in the world."

His horses break their maidens before their first start.

[mountainman]

Even his longshots cause minus pools.

Jockies pay HIM for the mounts.

He once had a maiden declared "horse of the year."

One of his runners scored a turf eclipse-without ever starting on grass.

He sometimes claims foul-against his own horses.

[thaskalos]

Even his longshots cause minus pools.

Jockies pay HIM for the mounts.

He once had a maiden declared "horse of the year."

One of his runners scored a turf eclipse-without ever starting on grass.

He sometimes claims foul-against his own horses.
Jamie Ness asks HIM for training advice.

Ever since he joined the circuit...the other trainers on the grounds have been losing an average of 2.5 lbs a week each.

[Stillriledup]

Even his longshots cause minus pools.

Jockies pay HIM for the mounts.

He once had a maiden declared "horse of the year."

One of his runners scored a turf eclipse-without ever starting on grass.

He sometimes claims foul-against his own horses.

:D
Great stuff!

He once lost a race, just to see how it feels.

When he pays his employees, he mails them checks with no postage, and they still arrive on time.

He can teach his horses to read his email.

[bks]

His geldings retain their testacles.

[Track Collector]

Even his longshots cause minus pools.

Jockies pay HIM for the mounts.

He once had a maiden declared "horse of the year."

One of his runners scored a turf eclipse-without ever starting on grass.

He sometimes claims foul-against his own horses.

CHRB were actually willing to suspend takeout for a day just to get him to race at their track! :eek:

[maclr11]

Vets can detect a aced horse in geldings or colts in the paddock due to temperment and behavior patterns. Female and male horses are very different in there behavior patterns. Its nearly impossible in fillys and mares to determine if a female horse has been aced, due to there mental inconsistencies. Hope this answered your question.
Doesn't ace come up positive in tests
Wouldn't want to run on ace and be stiffing my horse and get a positive
The withdrawal time in at least some states is 72 hours.
Seems hard to believe guys ace horses and risk going to the test barn

As for ITTP , that is true, hard to get a hold of though. Its synthetic EPO and doesn't test as far as I know. It really works, but to my knowledge you got to keep giving it to them or the crashes are bad. There's a trainer I know that definitely has a source of it. The affects are scary when horses leave the barn.

[chadk66]

You know your horse was held INTENTIONALLY 27 years ago?
my alzheimers isn't that bad

[chadk66]

Taking a wild guess you aren't much on the whole "let bygones be bygones" thing..lol...
I'm pretty dense, you'll have to explain this one to me.

[cj]

my alzheimers isn't that bad

I was more interested in the intentionally part. How could you possibly know this?

[chadk66]

I'd guess the jock told him, and he believed the jockey. I'm sure he'll tell us????
exactly. I was told it was coming. I had a jock riding my horses that was a good friend. I told her to not let the get boy in the gate with her. The horse was the most dossel creature on earth. She kept telling him to get out but he wouldn't. About the time the gate opened she saw it in his hand and bam, the horse rared and spotted the field fifteen lengths. And just about won the thing anyway. At that time I packed my stuff up and left thistle. I heard a couple weeks later the FBI cleaned the place out.

[chadk66]

take a look at the pp's of the horse. not sure if you can go back that far and get them. 1986, would have been in november. He ran five or six races at thistle that fall. Night Rover is the horse. I'm interested to see how far back he was at first call. It was quite a ways. This horse has never twitched in the gate in his life. Stumbled a little one time is all that I remember. But that day he about hung himself in the roof. Maclr knows the rider, ask him if she would BS me about this.

[Stillriledup]

take a look at the pp's of the horse. not sure if you can go back that far and get them. 1986, would have been in november. He ran five or six races at thistle that fall. Night Rover is the horse. I'm interested to see how far back he was at first call. It was quite a ways. This horse has never twitched in the gate in his life. Stumbled a little one time is all that I remember. But that day he about hung himself in the roof. Maclr knows the rider, ask him if she would BS me about this.

He ran 4 times at Thistle, his last start in that 4 race block of races at TDN was on Dec 7, 1985

[PaceAdvantage]

He sometimes claims foul-against his own horses.This one is an INSTANT classic! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Maximillion]

He ran 4 times at Thistle, his last start in that 4 race block of races at TDN was on Dec 7, 1985

SRU,Where are you getting that from? (some old races I wouldnt mind revisiting)

[chadk66]

He ran 4 times at Thistle, his last start in that 4 race block of races at TDN was on Dec 7, 1985
look at 86. I wasn't training him in 85. He was running for 5K claiming in 85 right?

[Stillriledup]

SRU,Where are you getting that from? (some old races I wouldnt mind revisiting)

Go to Equibase and on the front page, there's a search box in the top right, it says: Horses: Horse name. Type in the name "night Rover" and you get two entries, click on the link to Night Rover that was born in 1982. Than you get the option of "all years" or "results"

Equibase only goes back to 1991 with actual official charts, but before that they have the date the horse raced and the track.

If you want to look up old charts, go to the green bar tab near the top and click "results" and at the bottom of the dropdown menu is "historical charts".

The historical charts work better for me on Safari as opposed to Firefox.

[menifee]

Night Rover ran 129 times in his career. In 1985, broke his maiden at Canterbury. Changed trainers in 1986 to Chad. In his first race in 1986 (running for 8500 tag) lost by 43 lengths on May 4, 1986. Put together a nice three win race streak in the fall of 86 and won three consecutive races at TDN - won an allowance race.

In Nov 86, ran twice, can't see how far he was back at first call. PP's don't have that information. He was the favorite on November 14, 1986 and ran fourth.

[proximity]

meanwhile excitement is building for tomorrow's 250k fabulous strike!!

congratulations to ben's cat who is becoming a penn national legend!! hope some of my p.a. friends here cashed the $9.80!!

unfortunately I missed the race from my seat in the poker room. it was on some tvs but I was facing a tv showing Dayton vs cal (???) basketball. lost with kings to TWO $20 callers playing ace rag:rolleyes: , but overall another good session. welcome to my new life. :confused:

[Maximillion]

Go to Equibase and on the front page, there's a search box in the top right, it says: Horses: Horse name. Type in the name "night Rover" and you get two entries, click on the link to Night Rover that was born in 1982. Than you get the option of "all years" or "results"

Equibase only goes back to 1991 with actual official charts, but before that they have the date the horse raced and the track.

If you want to look up old charts, go to the green bar tab near the top and click "results" and at the bottom of the dropdown menu is "historical charts".

The historical charts work better for me on Safari as opposed to Firefox.

Thanks......ive been on that site before but didnt realize you could look back that far.

[chadk66]

Night Rover ran 129 times in his career. In 1985, broke his maiden at Canterbury. Changed trainers in 1986 to Chad. In his first race in 1986 (running for 8500 tag) lost by 43 lengths on May 4, 1986. Put together a nice three win race streak in the fall of 86 and won three consecutive races at TDN - won an allowance race.

In Nov 86, ran twice, can't see how far he was back at first call. PP's don't have that information. He was the favorite on November 14, 1986 and ran fourth.
The nov. 14th race was the incident. If my memory serves me he was about 15 lengths down at first call. Came absolutely flying at the end. This was the horse that was full blown interval trained. You can see the astounding difference it made in him. Couldn't even get a smell for 5K at thistle the fall before. Beat badly every out. That horse had a ton of starts. You could have made a kids riding horse out of him he was so quiet.

[proximity]

it was a tough break from the gate on that humble 80s afternoon, but halfway down the backstretch night rover was able to come up with such smash hits as when you close your eyes, sentimental street, and today's long distance request and dedication: sister Christian!

now on with the countdown!!

[Mineshaft]

Notice that Wells has nothing entered this weekend at Penn or Mountaineer. He must not be alowed to make any entries or he has transferred his horses to an assistant or other trainer.

[Mineshaft]

Samuel Webb has nothing entered either.

[Mineshaft]

And some doubted me when I posted not too long ago that shocking horses during a race and during training was more common then they think.






I think i was the only one on your side. Buzzers at small tracks are everywhere at the smaller tracks.

[Mineshaft]

[Qd heUOTE=proximity]MAYBE GILL BROTHER JAMES GILL POST HERE AGAIN AND UPDATE US? MAYBE GIVE UPDATE ON COLE NORMAN? :eek:[/QUOTE]




Where is ole Cole at these days? I think i heard he was back in Louisiana

[greengorilla]

As far as ace goes in race horses yes the trainer would test positive for ace. But most people stiffing horses in this mannner are grooms living in the backstretch not the trainers. Grooms make a ham sandwich a day to take of these race horses and on occasions will take there shot to fix a race. In the end most sharp grooms know the live horses in there barn and also no how to cool one.

[greengorilla]

As far as all the posts against Wells here. The real people that should be indicted are the stewards at beulah for dqing Paiges Prize for no foul whatsoever earlier this year. Wells in my eyes is no different then 90% of trainers in horse racing, they will do anything to win as long as they dont get caught. I mean look at Kirk Ziadie, Scooter Davis, Shanyfelt these crooks are way worse and are still in racing, running there horses under guys names like tom hoop, walter bish, and the list goes on.

[greengorilla]

I mean Scooter Davis and Doug Shanyfelt are no different then David Wells. In my eyes there actually worse, cause they circumvent the law even when there ruled off. Earlier this year Davis got 10 year suspension and Shanyfelt 1 year. After one of Scooters horses broke down at Charlestown running under Shanyfelts name .The track called the owner of the horse that broke down and said hey we have one of your horses broke down and cant get a hold of your trainer Doug Shanyfelt, the owner says whose Doug Shanyfelt, Scooter davis trains my horses. I mean crooks are crooks and theres lots of them. And these guys still are running there horses under other trainers names circumventing the law. I mean you can never seem to get rid of the creeps in out sport, and there are lots of them all over the country. If you gamble on this sport you need your head examined.

[nijinski]

As far as ace goes in race horses yes the trainer would test positive for ace. But most people stiffing horses in this mannner are grooms living in the backstretch not the trainers. Grooms make a ham sandwich a day to take of these race horses and on occasions will take there shot to fix a race. In the end most sharp grooms know the live horses in there barn and also no how to cool one.

I agree that there are some shady grooms and from what I've witnessed
there is no question about it .
I would say this also is more likely to take place in a claiming barn .

[Shemp Howard]

Notice that Wells has nothing entered this weekend at Penn or Mountaineer. He must not be alowed to make any entries or he has transferred his horses to an assistant or other trainer.

Owner Mark Moshe is running a previous Wells trainee this weekend under Amy Albright.

[wiffleball whizz]

congratulations to ben's cat who is becoming a penn national legend!! hope some of my p.a. friends here cashed the $9.80!!

unfortunately I missed the race from my seat in the poker room. it was on some tvs but I was facing a tv showing Dayton vs cal (???) basketball. lost with kings to TWO $20 callers playing ace rag:rolleyes: , but overall another good session. welcome to my new life. :confused:


For the record Dayton cal was on my iPad at laurel.......as for the pen card when the 7 couldn't go by the 4 in around the 5th race that solidified me breaking even :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[chadk66]

it was a tough break from the gate on that humble 80s afternoon, but halfway down the backstretch night rover was able to come up with such smash hits as when you close your eyes, sentimental street, and today's long distance request and dedication: sister Christian!

now on with the countdown!!haha I was a big fan of theirs.

[Mineshaft]

Owner Mark Moshe is running a previous Wells trainee this weekend under Amy Albright.





Looks like Albright got most or all of Wells horses. She ran one Wednesday and has 3 in Friday all former Wells horses and all are at Penn. I would think Penn wouldnt allow that.