Takeouts

[DigitalDownsJoe]

Pardon me if this has been answered before. I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a composite chart of US tracks and takeout per bet, including special races. Also, a list of rebates/rakeback on different sites.

[Track Collector]

Pardon me if this has been answered before. I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a composite chart of US tracks and takeout per bet, including special races. Also, a list of rebates/rakeback on different sites.

Try this.

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hanatrackratingsbyoverallscore2013.html

As far a rebates go, you will find no master list as they are confidential.

[thaskalos]

Try this.

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hanatrackratingsbyoverallscore2013.html

As far a rebates go, you will find no master list as they are confidential.

Has there been any reason given for all this secrecy?

[Stillriledup]

Has there been any reason given for all this secrecy?

They're not secret, go to "wagering levels" you can see what you get back. Obviously, the more you bet, the more you receive. I think NYRA rewards might also have a list on their site similar to this.

https://thebigmclub.customerentry.com/portal/

[thaskalos]

They're not secret, go to "wagering levels" you can see what you get back. Obviously, the more you bet, the more you receive. I think NYRA rewards might also have a list on their site similar to this.

https://thebigmclub.customerentry.com/portal/

They are not a "secret"?

I was betting horses for 25 years, without even knowing that rebates existed.

[DigitalDownsJoe]

Thanks, that chart really helps see where the best value is!

[Track Collector]

Has there been any reason given for all this secrecy?

Perhaps ADWs are contractually forbidden to share subject info to the general public. Another reason might be that everyone (exclusive of the player) makes more money that way.

The more one knows about the rebate market, the better the chances of securing a better rate and/or package.

(Please feel free to send me a private message if you want/need assistance in this area).


Chris


...

[Vigorish]

Has there been any reason given for all this secrecy?

If they were largely published, horsemen would come out with pitchforks. They would use the rates as ammunition in their crusade to annihilate those customers who churn the most handle. Horsemen would rather see their own industry go up in flames then contemplate the notion that some bettor, somewhere, was paying anything remotely approximating reasonable takeout.

Of course, I am just speculating and being slightly facetious. A couple of other reasons I can think of, based on my own exhaustive search of different rebates and rewards programs, has to do with how rebates are rewarded. A one-size-fits-all rewards chart wouldn't work very well since rebates are often contingent on your handle. Furthermore, the availability of different rebates is contingent on where the bet is placed. Finally, there is volatility in host/signal fees.

[Stillriledup]

They are not a "secret"?

I was betting horses for 25 years, without even knowing that rebates existed.

Did rebates exist 25 years ago?

[baconswitchfarm]

They are super secret at the highest levels. I know top players use each others rebates as leverage to up their percentages. In turn top management wants you to keep exactly what you get close to the vest. I know most big bettors always fudge the rebate numbers when discussing with others. Just part of the game.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Did rebates exist 25 years ago?

Yes, but as Thask said it was a secret

[Stillriledup]

Yes, but as Thask said it was a secret

Who was giving a rebate 25 years ago that was a secret? Since its not a secret anymore, you or Gus should be able to provide some names, dates, places and times.

Right?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Who was giving a rebate 25 years ago that was a secret? Since its not a secret anymore, you or Gus should be able to provide some names, dates, places and times.

Right?

We really can't.

[thaskalos]

Did rebates exist 25 years ago?
Is that what I said?

I started betting the horses in 1981...and I learned about rebates when I joined this site -- in 2006.

If the topic of rebates wasn't a secret...wouldn't I have stumbled upon it long before I did?

How come I found out about everything else...and the rebates eluded me?

[olddaddy]

Ive been playing horses for a long time, the 1st I heard about rebates was after I was able to get a ADW account. The 1st thing that came to my mind was where do I get a rebate form and how do I bundle my losing tics to mail them in. I was clueless also.

[Stillriledup]

Is that what I said?

I started betting the horses in 1981...and I learned about rebates when I joined this site -- in 2006.

If the topic of rebates wasn't a secret...wouldn't I have stumbled upon it long before I did?

How come I found out about everything else...and the rebates eluded me?

Michael said they existed 25 years ago. I was asking who was giving a rebate back then, since, you know, its public knowledge now, and he didnt know.

[BreadandButter]

Michael said they existed 25 years ago. I was asking who was giving a rebate back then, since, you know, its public knowledge now, and he didnt know.


Pre Internet and pre ADW the tracks would give rebates. Guys would save all their losing tickets - large stacks of rubber bands, grocery shopping bags etc. Once a week they would go into the track office they would tally up the losing tickets and cut them a percentage.

And no these players weren't walking around picking tickets up off the counters, table, ground etc. to add to it.

FWIW here is a "more accurate" listing of rebate percentages.

http://www.offtrackbetting.com/rebates.html

[Ocala Mike]

Pre Internet and pre ADW the tracks would give rebates. Guys would save all their losing tickets - large stacks of rubber bands, grocery shopping bags etc. Once a week they would go into the track office they would tally up the losing tickets and cut them a percentage.



Is this a put-on? If not, please, more specifics. What track offices did this, and out of what funds did the "percentage" get cut?

[Stillriledup]

Is this a put-on? If not, please, more specifics. What track offices did this, and out of what funds did the "percentage" get cut?

Yes, i agree, lets name tracks and GMs so we can find out more about a GM secretly paying off bettors, in cash, in the tunnel beneath the racetrack.

[Ted Craven]

FWIW here is a "more accurate" listing of rebate percentages.

http://www.offtrackbetting.com/rebates.html

Believe me, those are NOT the best rebates available.

Ted

[shouldacoulda]

Thanks, that chart really helps see where the best value is!

I thought the best value was at SRU Downs.

[Stillriledup]

I thought the best value was at SRU Downs.

;)

If you like being paid when you win, than yeah, the home of the no sweat inqury is where you wanna play.

[BreadandButter]

Believe me, those are NOT the best rebates available.

Ted

I agree but did you look at the previous link posted to the Big M?

[BreadandButter]

Yes, i agree, lets name tracks and GMs so we can find out more about a GM secretly paying off bettors, in cash, in the tunnel beneath the racetrack.

Not my intent fellas. The question was asked about rebates pre Internet and ADWs and I answered it.

[Vigorish]

I agree but did you look at the previous link posted to the Big M?

It's funny how industry insiders claim their customers are either oblivious or non-responsive to takeout. It should be self-evident that customers are sensitive to price, otherwise states like PA wouldn't try to put the axe to ADW's offering the lowest effective takeout.

I came back to this game after a 15 year hiatus, which was caused by laughably high takeout and all of the other costs associated with the game (i.e. parking, admission, forms, etc.). After leaving racing, I migrated to poker with 5% to $3 or $4 dollar rakes.

I was initially attracted back to horse racing by online access, bonuses, and free hand histories. Admittedly, my handle wasn't that high and I wasn't really creatively absorbed with the game. With the advent of real rebates (I receive substantially better ones than those listed at OTB) for non-whales, I have been converted into an enthusiastic regular who contributes an ever-increasing amount of time and money into this game. Heck, I even go to the track for live racing (and bring several friends) at least three times each summer. I have converted half a dozen friends (of a 30-something age demographic) into new customers.

Ultimately, what will happen is the game will succeed in driving away, state by state, many of its best customers. Takeout is sticky and will not go down. If anything, they will raise it slightly except for a few gimmicks like the pick 5. Somebody has to pay for the industry's 2 or 3% reward programs for customers wagering $960,000/yr!

I will pack my bags, spit on the ground, and walk away, contributing nothing more to this sport. In fact, I will warn my other sports-betting and poker friends to treat horse racing as you would the NBA or NFL. After all, who would be stupid enough to seriously play a game with takeouts approaching those of scratch off lottery tickets.


Jeffrey

[thaskalos]

It's funny how industry insiders claim their customers are either oblivious or non-responsive to takeout. It should be self-evident that customers are sensitive to price, otherwise states like PA wouldn't try to put the axe to ADW's offering the lowest effective takeout.

I came back to this game after a 15 year hiatus, which was caused by laughably high takeout and all of the other costs associated with the game (i.e. parking, admission, forms, etc.). After leaving racing, I migrated to poker with 5% to $3 or $4 dollar rakes.

I was initially attracted back to horse racing by online access, bonuses, and free hand histories. Admittedly, my handle wasn't that high and I wasn't really creatively absorbed with the game. With the advent of real rebates (I receive substantially better ones than those listed at OTB) for non-whales, I have been converted into an enthusiastic regular who contributes an ever-increasing amount of time and money into this game. Heck, I even go to the track for live racing (and bring several friends) at least three times each summer. I have converted half a dozen friends (of a 30-something age demographic) into new customers.

Ultimately, what will happen is the game will succeed in driving away, state by state, many of its best customers. Takeout is sticky and will not go down. If anything, they will raise it slightly except for a few gimmicks like the pick 5. Somebody has to pay for the industry's 2 or 3% reward programs for customers wagering $960,000/yr!

I will pack my bags, spit on the ground, and walk away, contributing nothing more to this sport. In fact, I will warn my other sports-betting and poker friends to treat horse racing as you would the NBA or NFL. After all, who would be stupid enough to seriously play a game with takeouts approaching those of scratch off lottery tickets.


Jeffrey

Jeffrey, I wanted to disagree with your assessment here. But, God help me, I find nothing in your post that I can possibly disagree with. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Not my intent fellas. The question was asked about rebates pre Internet and ADWs and I answered it.

Can how you see we might be skeptical unless you provide specifics?

[Ted Craven]

I agree but did you look at the previous link posted to the Big M?

I did. Just so I understand correctly, is that Big M rebate on Aqueduct Trifectas for the Diamond level ($80,000+ per month) = 4.54% ?

http://www.meadowlandsracetrack.com/uploadedfiles/diamond.pdf

If so, well...please feel free to contact either myself or Track Collector.

Ted