Jocks who "move out of the way"

[Stillriledup]

Seen this again in the 3rd race at Hollywood today, the guy riding the 4 just moved out of the way so the 1 could slip thru, and also the 5 came thru on the inside, if he just stays glued to the hip of the front runner, he gets a higher board spot for his connections (not to mention that he just stopped riding late in the race).

This happens all the time, isnt there some racing rules about collusion, or, is it just "part of the game" that jocks will help out other jocks to the detriment of their own mount?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Collusion is an agreement between two parties....

[Stillriledup]

Collusion is an agreement between two parties....

Ok, so its an unofficial agreement. Whether or not they verbally "agree" or they just help each other with a wink and a nod, its the same thing. At any rate, its bad for perception, just one of many things the game needs to fix.

[shouldacoulda]

Seen this again in the 3rd race at Hollywood today, the guy riding the 4 just moved out of the way so the 1 could slip thru, and also the 5 came thru on the inside, if he just stays glued to the hip of the front runner, he gets a higher board spot for his connections (not to mention that he just stopped riding late in the race).
Maybe he yelled out "NO BRAKES!" :lol:
I have seen plenty of horses get cut off and bottled up from closing holes.

[andtheyreoff]

I love the inference that these races are being fixed.

The jockey's winning share of that third race was $2,700. You really think jockeys are gonna pass up that kind of money to help out other jockeys?

[shouldacoulda]

I love the inference that these races are being fixed.

The jockey's winning share of that third race was $2,700. You really think jockeys are gonna pass up that kind of money to help out other jockeys?
It isn't so much about the jockeys share as compared to cashing tickets. That winner paid $4.80. :lol: That's not chicken feed. In fact you couldn't buy chicken feed with that winner. :lol: The colluded exacta paid $13.20. Major score. :lol: Things happen in races. Sometimes in your favor, sometimes against. I see plenty of wrist flicks with the whip. So light I have to wonder if they ever reach the horse. It's all part of the game and that's why data models are flawed. When I see questionable riding patterns I boycott the track. I'll take my $2.00 elsewhere :lol: Not for long though, otherwise I wouldn't have any tracks left to play. :eek: Know what I mean?

[jk3521]

The whole racing world is out to get us!! :faint:

[shouldacoulda]

The whole racing world is out to get us!! :faint:
Yup, and my $2.00 too. :D

[chadk66]

well when a rider knows he isn't on a winner or has a dead horse at the eighth pole they will often give other horses/riders room hoping to be repaid in the future for the favor. It's extremely common.

[nijinski]

Maybe avoiding clipped heels .

[jk3521]

well when a rider knows he isn't on a winner or has a dead horse at the eighth pole they will often give other horses/riders room hoping to be repaid in the future for the favor. It's extremely common.


There's your explanation, simple courtesy." Do the same for me some time". ;)

[Mineshaft]

well when a rider knows he isn't on a winner or has a dead horse at the eighth pole they will often give other horses/riders room hoping to be repaid in the future for the favor. It's extremely common.




happens all the time and maybe that's what he saw this afternoon

[Saratoga_Mike]

I love the inference that these races are being fixed.

The jockey's winning share of that third race was $2,700. You really think jockeys are gonna pass up that kind of money to help out other jockeys?

You're trying to reason with the wrong person

[shouldacoulda]

well when a rider knows he isn't on a winner or has a dead horse at the eighth pole they will often give other horses/riders room hoping to be repaid in the future for the favor. It's extremely common.
I'd rather see that than a horse that can't win being abused. Saw that once. I had money on it too. I was watching the jockey punish this poor animal. It was obvious he was done. I was thinking to myself, stop hitting it already.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

They work with these people 4-6 times per week.

Yes, there is competition, and yes I want my jocks trying hard within the rules, but they are playing in a dangerous sport and don't need someone pissed at them for virtually no reason.

If it is the difference between finishing 3rd and 4th or something like that I have no issue with the jockey putting his or her needs ahead of mine.

I think more should be done to protect the players, but not above jockey safety.

[GMB@BP]

well when a rider knows he isn't on a winner or has a dead horse at the eighth pole they will often give other horses/riders room hoping to be repaid in the future for the favor. It's extremely common.

And I dont get why this would be a bad thing, if your out of horse and someone needs room why would you go out of the way to hurt their chances, seems like a professional move to me.

[antigeekess]

Agreed. I heard Mike Smith not too long ago in a post-race interview talking about how his bud Stevens moved over for him, saying something like, "Go on, you're movin' better than I am!" And I know they sometimes do yell that they're coming through. It's safety and perfectly reasonable, IMO. Nobody wants to clip heels and have a potentially career or even life-ending spill.

[Just a Fan]

I don't have a problem with it either, and I think it happens all the time. Calvin Borel told the media he yelled for Stewart Elliott to get out of the way when he was launching his rail rally in the Derby with Mine That Bird. Chantal Sutherland appeared to move out of Mike Smith's way at the 1/8 pole of the 2010 Santa Margarita won by Zenyatta. And beyond the big races, I'm sure it happens almost every day at every track.

[baconswitchfarm]

And I dont get why this would be a bad thing, if your out of horse and someone needs room why would you go out of the way to hurt their chances, seems like a professional move to me.


It was a bad thing the million times I have been beaten for third and fourth because a guy moved over to let his friend pass. It has cost me thousands a crack on many occasions.

[Stillriledup]

They work with these people 4-6 times per week.

Yes, there is competition, and yes I want my jocks trying hard within the rules, but they are playing in a dangerous sport and don't need someone pissed at them for virtually no reason.

If it is the difference between finishing 3rd and 4th or something like that I have no issue with the jockey putting his or her needs ahead of mine.

I think more should be done to protect the players, but not above jockey safety.

The thread has nothing to do with jockey safety, that's a separate issue. Im not saying a jockey should do something that would put another rider in harms way, i'm just suggesting for jocks to ride to win.

Perfect example was the 8th race at Mountaineer tonight (Nov 12). The 2 horse was on the lead, and he let the guy come up the inside, that had nothing to do with safety, it was just careless and the jock cost his mount valuable ground when they got into the far turn, he was 2 wide instead of 1 wide, that's the stuff i'm talking about.

[chadk66]

And I dont get why this would be a bad thing, if your out of horse and someone needs room why would you go out of the way to hurt their chances, seems like a professional move to me.
It is a professional move. and it prevents possible injuries.

[cato]

Of course it has something to do with safety (at least in most cases where a faster fitter horse is overtaking a slowing, tiring horse).

And as far as keeping a tiring 1200 pound horse traveling at 35+ miles an hour going in a straight line 100% of the time after it's run for 3/4 of a mile as fast as it can go -- in the hopes that you can "block" a faster, fitter horses that is overtaking you -- go crazy, why don't you try it and see how that easy is to accomplish.

[Stillriledup]

And I dont get why this would be a bad thing, if your out of horse and someone needs room why would you go out of the way to hurt their chances, seems like a professional move to me.

Most horses are "out of horse" most of the time. Thoroughbreds slow up as the race gets longer...a typical first quarter in a 6F race is 22, the next quarter is 23 or 23 and change and the last quarter is 25 or slower. The entire field is "out of horse". With Pentafectas, they pay off to 5th money, that nose bob for the 5th spot can be a life changer for someone.

Jocks need to worry about finishing the highest position they can for the bettors and their owners, but as we know, horse racing isnt about bettors, its about owners, trainers and jocks, the bettors are a necessary evil in their book.

[Stillriledup]

Of course it has something to do with safety (at least in most cases where a faster fitter horse is overtaking a slowing, tiring horse).

And as far as keeping a tiring 1200 pound horse traveling at 35+ miles an hour going in a straight line 100% of the time after it's run for 3/4 of a mile as fast as it can go -- in the hopes that you can "block" a faster, fitter horses that is overtaking you -- go crazy, why don't you try it and see how that easy is to accomplish.

If a horse comes to a halt, the jock should get out of the way and be concerned about his fellow riders behind him. Sometimes, it can be a safety issue, i'm talking about the times where its NOT a safety issue, like tonight's 8th at the Mountain. Or, all those Ky Derbys that Calvin won by guys just moving out of the way for no reason.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

very different than the original post.

I dislike rider strategy errors as well.

[kinznk]

When I am playing horseracingfantasy against computer horses and I have no horse left with 2 to go I employ every blocking strategy there is known in horse racing.

[CryingForTheHorses]

well when a rider knows he isn't on a winner or has a dead horse at the eighth pole they will often give other horses/riders room hoping to be repaid in the future for the favor. It's extremely common.

Well in the old days when a jock told you to move over,They were told to go around,If you cant get around then sit chilly,These jocks that open up holes for others to go thu are just plain chickenshit and should not be riding.Never mind a future favor,Do you think the guy who you let thu last time will let you beat him if he has the horse.A smart rider will read the form and know where his horse may be during the race,.Dead horses on the rail should hold their position and make the field go around,.Letting them drift can cause some serious issues with the rest of the field.JMO

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Does the game throw you off the horse and not let you play for 6 months?

[GMB@BP]

The thread has nothing to do with jockey safety, that's a separate issue. Im not saying a jockey should do something that would put another rider in harms way, i'm just suggesting for jocks to ride to win.

Perfect example was the 8th race at Mountaineer tonight (Nov 12). The 2 horse was on the lead, and he let the guy come up the inside, that had nothing to do with safety, it was just careless and the jock cost his mount valuable ground when they got into the far turn, he was 2 wide instead of 1 wide, that's the stuff i'm talking about.

Well now your talking about tow separate things to me, one is when your horse is clearly tiring, the other is where you simply make a mistake.

Also sometimes its the horse and not the rider that drifts.

[LottaKash]

For me, whether I like it or not in any particular situation, "jockey courtesy" imo, is just a way of life....I have been watching this for years, and it makes perfect sense if you view it from the rider/driver's point of view...

A good comparison may be what occurs daily while driving on the "big roads" throughout the world....Say I am doing 75/80 and I just know that is what the lawmen are giving you on that particular day, and I am in the passing lane, passing cars at that, and I look in my mirror and see another car coming up on me in a rush, it is then that I will get to the right as expediently as safely and possible to allow the other guy to do his thing....To me that is the courtesy that I was referring to...

I believe that most jockeys/drivers do try to get along with most of the others, and will scratch your back if you scratch his...They have to work there...

Not saying tho, that there aren't some very suspicious moves at times....Part of the game I'd say.....

But in today's game what with all the supers and pentas, I don't think the pilots care much about us players in that regard tho...

[chadk66]

Well in the old days when a jock told you to move over,They were told to go around,If you cant get around then sit chilly,These jocks that open up holes for others to go thu are just plain chickenshit and should not be riding.Never mind a future favor,Do you think the guy who you let thu last time will let you beat him if he has the horse.A smart rider will read the form and know where his horse may be during the race,.Dead horses on the rail should hold their position and make the field go around,.Letting them drift can cause some serious issues with the rest of the field.JMO
yea things aren't what they used to be. and this varies from jock colony to jock colony. it just is what it is.

[brivolta]

Jockeys do this for each other all the time and it has nothing to do with collusion or fixing races. Jockeys know when they are out of horse and if another jockey is coming up the rail with a lot of horse they'll usually say something and often times the jockey lets them through.

Most jockeys know when they have enough horse left and in those cases they will always "race ride". But if they know they're beat, often times they'll move over a path to let someone through. Any of you that are owners or trainers and have access to watching races from somewhere near the turn have heard it countless times. These guys talk to each other all the time during a race. Often times it's for their own safety.

I had a mare running last week who was a length in front after a quarter mile. A horse in the race lost its rider at the break went flying by her and my jock had to check with my mare. After the race I asked how close the horse got and he said it wasn't that she got close, he just didn't expect it because nobody said anything and usually everyone is yelling "loose horse". These guys are competitors and have balls of steel. But they also have to look out for their own safety, as well as the safety of those around them.

[mountainman]

It can't be prevented. But it's collusion. Players should not BE at the whims of whatever personal relationships exist between riders.

Requiring conspiracy and having more effect on the outcome, PACE collusion would make a better topic.

[Stillriledup]

Good God, do you think Barrington Harvey could have made it any easier for Russell Baze on the overbet crud chalk to win the 3rd race at GG (Dec 1).

This stuff is why racing is a dying game, people see this stuff and it looks really bad, to the novice, it looks like the guy just moved out of the way to let his pal win the race.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Years ago he rode the 3rd at Philly Park (not Parx yet) and was serving hot dogs and fries and the food stand before the 5th.

I think he was like 3/115 that year. I don't have many riders on my do not bet list, he is right on top. PS: he seemed like a nice enough guy, just a terrible jock.

[PaceAdvantage]

This stuff is why racing is a dying game, people see this stuff and it looks really bad, to the novice, it looks like the guy just moved out of the way to let his pal win the race.How would a novice know they were pals?

[Stillriledup]

How would a novice know they were pals?

He wouldnt. Neither would a non-novice. Im talking about the perception and you know, perception is pretty important in the racing game, people have to believe the races are on the up and up or they're not betting or becoming a fan.

If i took a novice to the track and they asked me "why did that guy move out of the way and part the red sea for the other guy" how am i supposed to answer that?

[PaceAdvantage]

If i took a novice to the track and they asked me "why did that guy move out of the way and part the red sea for the other guy" how am i supposed to answer that?Tell him that's what happens when a 100 pound man tries to control a 1000 pound animal with a couple of straps of leather.

You act as if everything is scripted and nothing chaotic happens during a race.

I guess it would be best if the jock in question makes sure he shuts off whomever is coming and risks a disastrous accident instead of moving his tired horse out of the way...

We can slice this multiple ways. It all doesn't end up on the road to chicanery.

[Stillriledup]

Tell him that's what happens when a 100 pound man tries to control a 1000 pound animal with a couple of straps of leather.

You act as if everything is scripted and nothing chaotic happens during a race.

I guess it would be best if the jock in question makes sure he shuts off whomever is coming and risks a disastrous accident instead of moving his tired horse out of the way...

We can slice this multiple ways. It all doesn't end up on the road to chicanery.

I'm no geometry expert, but i know the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. If you can figure out why the guy thought losing ground on the turn was going to get him to the wire faster, let us in on it!

Why are we bring up a disasterous accident, what does this have to do with anything related to this thread?

[andtheyreoff]

I'm no geometry expert, but i know the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. If you can figure out why the guy thought losing ground on the turn was going to get him to the wire faster, let us in on it!

Why are we bring up a disastrous accident, what does this have to do with anything related to this thread?

Because if he knows his horse is tired and isn't going to win, he might as well get out of the way so he's not gonna interfere with anyone else.

In the case of the Golden Gate race, Harvey's horse was a big longshot (99/1) and had been hustled to a fast opening quarter. She was already starting to throw in the towel around the turn, so there's no harm in wrapping up on your horse and letting a guy go through on the rail, as opposed to taking the chance the horse behind you will clip heels.

[Stillriledup]

Because if he knows his horse is tired and isn't going to win, he might as well get out of the way so he's not gonna interfere with anyone else.

In the case of the Golden Gate race, Harvey's horse was a big longshot (99/1) and had been hustled to a fast opening quarter. She was already starting to throw in the towel around the turn, so there's no harm in wrapping up on your horse and letting a guy go through on the rail, as opposed to taking the chance the horse behind you will clip heels.

I know what you're saying, i'm not suggesting the guy try and cause an accident, i'm just saying he should stay in his path, plenty of horses get to the front end and tire, but not all of them move out of the way, they just stay in their lane. It might be more dangerous changing lanes than staying in your own lane.

[thespaah]

I know what you're saying, i'm not suggesting the guy try and cause an accident, i'm just saying he should stay in his path, plenty of horses get to the front end and tire, but not all of them move out of the way, they just stay in their lane. It might be more dangerous changing lanes than staying in your own lane.
As much as your mind sees one, there is no conspiracy here.
A jock riding a tired horse hears another rider yelling "coming through" is going to get out of the way. Period.
It's a safety issue as well as an issue of what I call 'courtesy in competition'..
You'd have a valid argument if the rider moved over when his or her horse was in contention for a placing.

[Stillriledup]

As much as your mind sees one, there is no conspiracy here.
A jock riding a tired horse hears another rider yelling "coming through" is going to get out of the way. Period.
It's a safety issue as well as an issue of what I call 'courtesy in competition'..
You'd have a valid argument if the rider moved over when his or her horse was in contention for a placing.

So all the guys who moved out of the way for Calvin in those Ky Derbies were showing him courtesy? Or, maybe was yelling "move over, coming thru"?

[Stillriledup]

As much as your mind sees one, there is no conspiracy here.
A jock riding a tired horse hears another rider yelling "coming through" is going to get out of the way. Period.
It's a safety issue as well as an issue of what I call 'courtesy in competition'..
You'd have a valid argument if the rider moved over when his or her horse was in contention for a placing.

I've seen plenty of jocks move out of the way and then lose to only the horse they moved over for. Happens all the time when a jock will be on the lead, let the winner up the rail and cost themselves a placing.

[Mineshaft]

I've seen plenty of jocks move out of the way and then lose to only the horse they moved over for. Happens all the time when a jock will be on the lead, let the winner up the rail and cost themselves a placing.





You are grasping.......

[Stillriledup]

You are grasping.......

You've never seen a race where a jock cost himself a board spot by letting someone up the rail?

[thespaah]

So all the guys who moved out of the way for Calvin in those Ky Derbies were showing him courtesy? Or, maybe was yelling "move over, coming thru"?
I'd have to look at the videos to see to what you refer.

[thespaah]

I've seen plenty of jocks move out of the way and then lose to only the horse they moved over for. Happens all the time when a jock will be on the lead, let the winner up the rail and cost themselves a placing.
Show video replay. Thanks...

[raybo]

Many times horses drift away from the rail in the turn or in the stretch. It's not always the jockey causing it, and sometimes the jockey knows his horse is tiring and feels the rail is not the least tiring path in the stretch so they move out a path or 2. Tiring horses often drift, it's common.

Seems like some people just have to have something to complain about, in order to justify their weaknesses as a player.

[Stillriledup]

Show video replay. Thanks...

The 5th at Mountaineer on Dec 7th?

(letting the 2 up the rail)

[Robert Fischer]

The 5th at Mountaineer on Dec 7th?

(letting the 2 up the rail)

That was a dead rail, and by the time the 6 or the 10 realized they weren't running for the win they would have had to foul to cut over to the rail. The other option was a team of jockeys asking from the gate in order to possibly box the 2 in, like a turf stakes where you have a huge favorite.

That's asking a lot for 9K purse, in what would result in tight-quarters.

The 2 was either going to be sound or he wasn't. He was, and won easily regardless of tactics.

[Stillriledup]

That was a dead rail, and by the time the 6 or the 10 realized they weren't running for the win they would have had to foul to cut over to the rail. The other option was a team of jockeys asking from the gate in order to possibly box the 2 in, like a turf stakes where you have a huge favorite.

That's asking a lot for 9K purse, in what would result in tight-quarters.

The 2 was either going to be sound or he wasn't. He was, and won easily regardless of tactics.

Couldnt have been too dead, winner rode that to a victory.

Go back and watch the 10th race at Fair Grounds. Rosie on the 1-5 shot, the 6 came over right into her face and jammed on the brakes. Jocks don't seem to understand that they'll have a better shot if the favorite doesnt get clear, or, gets kickback, or, has to lose ground going to the outside. Jocks mostly just ride their own horse and don't worry about the other horses, you know, they're not called pinheads for nothing.

There were two instances where two difference horses could have gotten over, and neither guy did.

Ask a Bailey or McCarron or Cordero if they ever rode a horse in a specific way to force their main contender to have a tougher trip, you know what they'll tell you.

[Stillriledup]

Rock Me Mama. Race 2 at Aqu on Dec 12th. Jock on the lead moved out of the way for him.

[Stillriledup]

Nice ride by the guy on the favorite in the 5th today at Gulfstream.

[cj]

Nice ride by the guy on the favorite in the 5th today at Gulfstream.

Traffic issues, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was a bad ride.

[Racetrack Playa]

:4:Alaura Michelle rough & tough mare ,Castellano knew it.

[Stillriledup]

Traffic issues, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was a bad ride.

It was a good ride up until he released the winner. I though up until that point, he rode well, he kept the mare calm while in tight, quiet hands, but i thought it was a bit of a "soft" ride letting the winner get thru.

[cj]

It was a good ride up until he released the winner. I though up until that point, he rode well, he kept the mare calm while in tight, quiet hands, but i thought it was a bit of a "soft" ride letting the winner get thru.

I don't think it is nearly as easy as you think it is to keep a horse "locked in", and it isn't particularly safe to do that either, especially in a bunched up turf race. I could block horses with the best of them in the original Gallop Racer, but I wouldn't want to do it in real life!

[Stillriledup]

I don't think it is nearly as easy as you think it is to keep a horse "locked in", and it isn't particularly safe to do that either, especially in a bunched up turf race. I could block horses with the best of them in the original Gallop Racer, but I wouldn't want to do it in real life!

I'm not suggesting he do anything unsafe, just stay on the hip of the horse in front of him, hold your position, he let the guy herd him out and essentially moved out of the way and cost himself at least 1 placing.

[cj]

I'm not suggesting he do anything unsafe, just stay on the hip of the horse in front of him, hold your position, he let the guy herd him out and essentially moved out of the way and cost himself at least 1 placing.

Like i said, easy in theory, in practice not so much.

[Stillriledup]

Like i said, easy in theory, in practice not so much.

Do you think he made the attempt to keep the guy from getting out and failed? Or, do you think he just never even tried?

[speed]

At the time you say he lets him out the the jock is attempting to find room himself. When the sees a chance to get through he angles out and through the hole. Thing is the jock inside anticipated this and timed it perfectly kinda hitting the hole at the same time. Watch the head on he angles out and into him turning for home. The 2 never opens anything. Actually the 4 brushes with him pushing his way out.

[goatchaser]

Cordero was famous for fanning his horse wide carrying out whoever it was trying to get by him on the outside. Jocks don't want to get a rep for closing jocks off on the rail on purpose and sending them over a rail or anything like that. You start doing that and your name would be mud in the Jocks room. And you would put yourself in danger.

[Stillriledup]

Great posts guys (62 & 63)

Both of you make good points. That guy riding the chalk isnt going to go out of his way to shut off the leading rider, there's no real benefit for him to do that in the long run.

This is why jocks need to always save ground, unless SRU bets on you, there's a great chance you'll get the clearance you need, just yell "coming thru" and its likely someone will move out of the way.

[Stillriledup]

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/83904/jockey-cosgrave-suspended-six-months

[Dark Horse]

Seen this again in the 3rd race at Hollywood today, the guy riding the 4 just moved out of the way so the 1 could slip thru, and also the 5 came thru on the inside, if he just stays glued to the hip of the front runner, he gets a higher board spot for his connections (not to mention that he just stopped riding late in the race).

This happens all the time, isnt there some racing rules about collusion, or, is it just "part of the game" that jocks will help out other jocks to the detriment of their own mount?

I think it was Nakatani who said that he would let a friend through, but not somebody he didn't like.

Love the post race comments by jockeys. Nakatani also said he would fall off if he would look over at the big screen (SA), but that Talamo does it all the time.

Or Puglisi saying that he always listens to Trevor's call, and that it really helps him.

[Stillriledup]

I think it was Nakatani who said that he would let a friend through, but not somebody he didn't like.

Love the post race comments by jockeys. Nakatani also said he would fall off if he would look over at the big screen (SA), but that Talamo does it all the time.

Or Puglisi saying that he always listens to Trevor's call, and that it really helps him.

I heard that interview with Iggy the other day in the winners circle and he did say he hears Trevor loud and clear.

[JohnGalt1]

[QUOTE=Dark Horse]I think it was Nakatani who said that he would let a friend through, but not somebody he didn't like.

So if Ryan Barber wanted a way through it would be too bad for him?

[Stillriledup]

[QUOTE=Dark Horse]I think it was Nakatani who said that he would let a friend through, but not somebody he didn't like.

So if Ryan Barber wanted a way through it would be too bad for him?

Besides Ryan Barber, there was another jock he tossed into the infield...can't remember the name, javier something?

[Stillriledup]

Maybe i need glasses or some other sort of eye sight aid, but did anyone here think that the jocks "moved out of the way" for Mike Smith in Race 7 at DMR riding Hugh Knew (Aug 14th)?

Im watching the race and saying "how did this guy get out"?

[tanner12oz]

Looked like he just hit the hole first and then talamo quit riding cuz he got owned so bad by smith...oooops that was race 6

[Billnewman]

it happened last Saturday at FL in a 50k stake.With the Linda Rice uncoupled entry- The odds on favorite was tiring and he opened a hole for his stablemate up the rail. Another logical argument against uncoupled entrys

[Tall One]

For me, whether I like it or not in any particular situation, "jockey courtesy" imo, is just a way of life....I have been watching this for years, and it makes perfect sense if you view it from the rider/driver's point of view...

A good comparison may be what occurs daily while driving on the "big roads" throughout the world....Say I am doing 75/80 and I just know that is what the lawmen are giving you on that particular day, and I am in the passing lane, passing cars at that, and I look in my mirror and see another car coming up on me in a rush, it is then that I will get to the right as expediently as safely and possible to allow the other guy to do his thing....To me that is the courtesy that I was referring to...

I believe that most jockeys/drivers do try to get along with most of the others, and will scratch your back if you scratch his...They have to work there...

Not saying tho, that there aren't some very suspicious moves at times....Part of the game I'd say.....

But in today's game what with all the supers and pentas, I don't think the pilots care much about us players in that regard tho...



Great post, Kash.

[Stillriledup]

Great post, Kash.

I liked Kash's post, but the bone of contention i would have is that if you move out of the way, you're actually hindering your own mount in at least 2 ways while helping another betting interest gain an advantage.

I also think that if you're stopping to a walk, its a good idea to get out of someone's way, but if the race is running and they're on the far turn and youre just lollygagging out there and letting guys inside of you, that's bad perception. It looks bad, it looks like you were helping someone else win.

[Tall One]

I also think that if you're stopping to a walk, its a good idea to get out of someone's way, but if the race is running and they're on the far turn and youre just lollygagging out there and letting guys inside of you, that's bad perception. It looks bad, it looks like you were helping someone else win.


Correct. Big difference in letting another jock go by, but if your horse has stopped, then that's a different story.

Another good point in his post is albeit an unfortunate one that we keep in the back of our heads: "Not saying tho, that there aren't some very suspicious moves at times....Part of the game I'd say....."

[Tall One]

Put it this way, I'd prefer my jock ride his race and let it unfold as it is...let that other pin-head worry about it.

In other words, don't go all Desormeaux out there and quit on me.. :ThmbDown:

[Stillriledup]

Put it this way, I'd prefer my jock ride his race and let it unfold as it is...let that other pin-head worry about it.

In other words, don't go all Desormeaux out there and quit on me.. :ThmbDown:

If you're alongside another horse on the backstretch into the far turn, someone shouldn't be slipping between you and the rail horse. Just maintain your position, shouldnt' be too much to ask.

[Dark Horse]

I don't really want to open a separate topic about this, so hope to fit it in here under 'jockeys who move out of their own way'.

As many may have noticed, Mike Smith eases horses far more often than any other jockey. Today it was Doinghardtimeagain's turn; imo a serious contender for the win at 7/1. Just eased halfway through.

The lack of respect for players, who make the game possible, is a far cry from other riders at respectable ages. Gary Stevens even apologized to players, shortly before his knee replacement surgery, for perhaps having not been his best in his final weeks. Practically without fail, horses eased by Smith are perfectly fine, so the problem seems to be mostly in his head. What if every rider had such a low threshold towards easing horses? If this is all part of Smith's extended retirement tour, spread out over several years, I've certainly paid my fair share into it. Not cool, Mike.

[menifee]

I don't really want to open a separate topic about this, so hope to fit it in here under 'jockeys who move out of their own way'.

As many may have noticed, Mike Smith eases horses far more often than any other jockey. Today it was Doinghardtimeagain's turn; imo a serious contender for the win at 7/1. Just eased halfway through.

The lack of respect for players, who make the game possible, is a far cry from other riders at respectable ages. Gary Stevens even apologized to players, shortly before his knee replacement surgery, for perhaps having not been his best in his final weeks. Practically without fail, horses eased by Smith are perfectly fine, so the problem seems to be mostly in his head. What if every rider had such a low threshold towards easing horses? If this is all part of Smith's extended retirement tour, spread out over several years, I've certainly paid my fair share into it. Not cool, Mike.

Yeah that hurt me as well. I don't know what he was doing. That is a strange horse. Either runs lights out or is eased/loses by a mile. I would note that the other Hollendorfer won for fun.

[Nosed]

I cast one vote for Stillriledup.... I've seen too many races where horses that should be competitive, finish up the track and too many races where a horse that hasn't finished in 10 lengths of the lead recently get on the board...That's why I miss Jerry Baily. He knew what to do when he had a good horse and stole a lot of races from guys who quit to soon.

[Dark Horse]

Yeah that hurt me as well. I don't know what he was doing. That is a strange horse. Either runs lights out or is eased/loses by a mile. I would note that the other Hollendorfer won for fun.

I should have called it jocks-who-can't-get-out-of-their-own-way.

It seems to me that Smith wants to be a horse whisperer more than a jockey, and it's up to him to decide, during the race, if the horse really feels like running. If not, he won't ask anything of the horse, or ease it. So Smith, 'out of the goodness of his heart', adds that extra filter. It doesn't exactly help the integrity of the game.

[Stillriledup]

I don't really want to open a separate topic about this, so hope to fit it in here under 'jockeys who move out of their own way'.

As many may have noticed, Mike Smith eases horses far more often than any other jockey. Today it was Doinghardtimeagain's turn; imo a serious contender for the win at 7/1. Just eased halfway through.

The lack of respect for players, who make the game possible, is a far cry from other riders at respectable ages. Gary Stevens even apologized to players, shortly before his knee replacement surgery, for perhaps having not been his best in his final weeks. Practically without fail, horses eased by Smith are perfectly fine, so the problem seems to be mostly in his head. What if every rider had such a low threshold towards easing horses? If this is all part of Smith's extended retirement tour, spread out over several years, I've certainly paid my fair share into it. Not cool, Mike.

Mike Smith rode Winning Rhythm at Santa Anita on June 29th in the 5th race and just stopped riding the horse after getting fanned wide. The horse came back on July 26th and the trainer was interviewed in the paddock by TVG and essentially said that Mike was "protecting" the horse. I don't know what her trainer said word for word, but the vibe i got was that there was really nothing wrong with the horse and Mike was just "making sure".

At any rate, off an "Eased" PP line, she comes back on July 26 in the 6th race and wins like a superstar, with Smith aboard.

[Dark Horse]

Mike Smith rode Winning Rhythm at Santa Anita on June 29th in the 5th race and just stopped riding the horse after getting fanned wide. The horse came back on July 26th and the trainer was interviewed in the paddock by TVG and essentially said that Mike was "protecting" the horse. I don't know what her trainer said word for word, but the vibe i got was that there was really nothing wrong with the horse and Mike was just "making sure".

At any rate, off an "Eased" PP line, she comes back on July 26 in the 6th race and wins like a superstar, with Smith aboard.

Trainers always say that they appreciate Mike looking after the horse. What else are they going to say? He's basically second guessing their job and determination that the horse was ready to race. Not sure there's more to it than that... (but anything is possible).

If this was the standard in racing that would be one thing, but Smith is setting his own standard. So my question to Smith, from a player perspective, is: what makes you so special?

[Stillriledup]

Trainers always say that they appreciate Mike looking after the horse. What else are they going to say? He's basically second guessing their job and determination that the horse was ready to race. Not sure there's more to it than that... (but anything is possible).

If this was the standard in racing that would be one thing, but Smith is setting his own standard. So my question to Smith, from a player perspective, is: what makes you so special?

Jocks are teflon for the most part. If a guy like Smith or Stevens or some other hall of famer says "the horse felt funny so i was making sure" what are they (judges) going to do or say?

Now, in any one individual situation, there's really nothing you can do....but, if a jock makes a habit of this stuff, than you know its the jock and not the horse.

Its funny and ironic at the same time that Smith not only doesnt' accept as many mounts as the other guys, but he's riding major contenders in every race for the most part and he's riding good horses, he's not riding the 8k claimers....he's the last guy who should be pulling horses up due to the amount of mounts he accepts and the type of mounts he accepts.

[affirmedny]

Trainers always say that they appreciate Mike looking after the horse. What else are they going to say? He's basically second guessing their job and determination that the horse was ready to race. Not sure there's more to it than that... (but anything is possible).

If this was the standard in racing that would be one thing, but Smith is setting his own standard. So my question to Smith, from a player perspective, is: what makes you so special?

Hollendorfer was on HRTV today and said something like "I used to get mad when a jock did that but I don't anymore". Also said there's nothing wrong with the horse.

[stringmail]

Hollendorfer was on HRTV today and said something like "I used to get mad when a jock did that but I don't anymore". Also said there's nothing wrong with the horse.

Smith stated that he felt the horse feet were stinging on the turf. I'm sure Hollendorfer has no issue with him easing the horse. They wanted to try turf it didn't work out. I'm sure Dorf and the ownership would much rather have Smith on the horse than some other jocks.

As for what makes Smith so special as Dark Horse asks, well he beats me quite a bit so I would say a lot and I would rather have him on my horse that riding against me.

[Dark Horse]

Its funny and ironic at the same time that Smith not only doesnt' accept as many mounts as the other guys, but he's riding major contenders in every race for the most part and he's riding good horses, he's not riding the 8k claimers....he's the last guy who should be pulling horses up due to the amount of mounts he accepts and the type of mounts he accepts.

Agreed. Plus he has one of the lowest place-to-win percentages, meaning that he often gives up when he's lost the race. I think he's referred to his philosophy as 'at this stage in his career putting the horse first'. Sounds great. Until you translate it: F U players! Gimme a rider who tries to get the most out of the horse anytime over this hopefully-soon-to-be-retired rider who puts himself in a special category.

[thespaah]

Agreed. Plus he has one of the lowest place-to-win percentages, meaning that he often gives up when he's lost the race. I think he's referred to his philosophy as 'at this stage in his career putting the horse first'. Sounds great. Until you translate it: F U players! Gimme a rider who tries to get the most out of the horse anytime over this hopefully-soon-to-be-retired rider who puts himself in a special category.
I can understand when jockey 'lets up' when his mount is spent and hopelessly out of it. But to stop riding when the horse is able to race for for position is an outrage.
There are rules for this. In fact it is well known so as long as the horse is not in distress or has tired to the point of futility, the jockey MUST make all efforts to gain or at least maintain position

[Dark Horse]

I can understand when jockey 'lets up' when his mount is spent and hopelessly out of it. But to stop riding when the horse is able to race for for position is an outrage.
There are rules for this. In fact it is well known so as long as the horse is not in distress or has tired to the point of futility, the jockey MUST make all efforts to gain or at least maintain position

Smith imagines himself to be above such rules. He's a popular jockey. Well liked. But as far as integrity towards players, he's among the worst. Very unlike another old master, Gary Stevens.

The latest eased horse, Doinghardtimegain, was, once again, perfectly fine. My conclusion is that Smith can't tell the difference between something that's in his own head, and something that's wrong with the horse.

Smith, if you can't get out of your own way, get out of the way.

[thespaah]

Smith imagines himself to be above such rules. He's a popular jockey. Well liked. But as far as integrity towards players, he's among the worst. Very unlike another old master, Gary Stevens.

The latest eased horse, Doinghardtimegain, was, once again, perfectly fine. My conclusion is that Smith can't tell the difference between something that's in his own head, and something that's wrong with the horse.

Smith, if you can't get out of your own way, get out of the way.
If Smith is "giving up" just because he's not going to win, there is a serious breech of the rules of racing and a serious lack of integrity on his part.
This sport has enough issues as it is.
:mad:

[Stillriledup]

Smith imagines himself to be above such rules. He's a popular jockey. Well liked. But as far as integrity towards players, he's among the worst. Very unlike another old master, Gary Stevens.

The latest eased horse, Doinghardtimegain, was, once again, perfectly fine. My conclusion is that Smith can't tell the difference between something that's in his own head, and something that's wrong with the horse.

Smith, if you can't get out of your own way, get out of the way.

This is exactly right. He shouldn't have it in his head that he's going to be "caretaker" for those horses, he's not a trainer, he's a jockey and as a jockey he's paid to ride the horse around in the circle and get that horse from point A to point B as fast as he can. Why he's thinking that "Something's wrong" with these horses is strictly a mental issue, him and his agent don't accept mounts that are "off" he's only riding the soundest and best runners.

He has accepted the fewest mounts at Del Mar in the top 10 riders, Tyler Baze, who missed time due to family obligations has FIFTY more mounts than Smith, 138 to 78. When you are picking and choosing mounts, you are picking and choosing only the soundest runners from the best barns...like i said in an earlier post, he's the last guy who should be mailing in rides.

I really appreciate you calling this jock out on this matter, its been universally accepted that if a jock "does right" by the horse, we can't be critical because the horse comes first and none of us would want him to continue riding a horse who might be injured.

With that said, the mount i talked about in post 82 came back to win with an "eased" PP line. What are players supposed to think when an "injured" horse is back so quickly and THEN, explodes away to win in a laughter. That stuff is perception based and hits right at the core of integrity.

If jocks can just pull horses up with no punishment, its amazing that they don't do more of this.

If Omar Berrio pulled up Masochistic in the stretch in that race before his Churchill win and hopped off and said there's something wrong with the horse, they would have gotten a much higher price than 2-1 at Churchill if the horse was coming off a "vanned off" comment. Also, he wouldnt have been criticized as much, after all, how can you be critical of a guy who is "doing right by the horse'?

[TonyMLake]

Knowing who the cheaters are is one of the greatest money making angles you can know.

Learn the name of the jock who got out of the way and who he got out of the way for.

There is often a top jock or two who is not involved but still shows up in the money... sometimes the cheaters will slow down for the honest jocks just as they would their cohort jockeys who cheat with them... so learn who is doing what.

LOOK FOR THE HORSE THAT GETS FIVE FEET FROM THE FINISH LINE AND SUDDENLY STOPS. He is your $100,000 for the season.

Learn the names. Learn the jockey configurations and the odds they tend to pull this on. They are in a routine. It is common at many tracks.

Be grateful. This is the involvement of a "special element". Most of the crowd is not there often enough to see it for what it is, but for you, it's the golden ticket!

[Stillriledup]

Knowing who the cheaters are is one of the greatest money making angles you can know.

Learn the name of the jock who got out of the way and who he got out of the way for.

There is often a top jock or two who is not involved but still shows up in the money... sometimes the cheaters will slow down for the honest jocks just as they would their cohort jockeys who cheat with them... so learn who is doing what.

LOOK FOR THE HORSE THAT GETS FIVE FEET FROM THE FINISH LINE AND SUDDENLY STOPS. He is your $100,000 for the season.

Learn the names. Learn the jockey configurations and the odds they tend to pull this on. They are in a routine. It is common at many tracks.

Be grateful. This is the involvement of a "special element". Most of the crowd is not there often enough to see it for what it is, but for you, it's the golden ticket!

This a great post. I've made some nice scores on this stuff, but its important to be careful at making sure which horses are being specifically "hidden" by the jock and which horses are "not right" and the jock is just protecting the horse and himself.

[Stillriledup]

In the 6th race at Belmont on Sept 12th, did it appear to you guys that the 3 specifically moved out of the way to let the guy thru? That's what it looked like to me, the guy yanked and altered the outcome, now im not sure who that was, or if he's a habitual offender, but that seemed odd, one second the favorite has no chance, the next second the favorite is jogging to victory.

Were the 1 and 3 coupled? I dont know how this is allowed, jocks moving all over the track to help out others.

And they wonder why the game is in trouble.

[cj]

In the 6th race at Belmont on Sept 12th, did it appear to you guys that the 3 specifically moved out of the way to let the guy thru? That's what it looked like to me, the guy yanked and altered the outcome, now im not sure who that was, or if he's a habitual offender, but that seemed odd, one second the favorite has no chance, the next second the favorite is jogging to victory.

Were the 1 and 3 coupled? I dont know how this is allowed, jocks moving all over the track to help out others.

And they wonder why the game is in trouble.

...or, the 3 just happened to drift when urged and the jockey went immediately to the right handed stick to straighten the horse out.

[thespaah]

In the 6th race at Belmont on Sept 12th, did it appear to you guys that the 3 specifically moved out of the way to let the guy thru? That's what it looked like to me, the guy yanked and altered the outcome, now im not sure who that was, or if he's a habitual offender, but that seemed odd, one second the favorite has no chance, the next second the favorite is jogging to victory.

Were the 1 and 3 coupled? I dont know how this is allowed, jocks moving all over the track to help out others.

And they wonder why the game is in trouble.
The :3: was stopping. A hot first half of 46 and change did her in. Yep the rider did let the :1: through.
Its probably an unwritten rule that if your horse is spent, you don't block.
And why might this be? Simple. You'd want the same courtesy if the roles were reversed. Plus IMO it is a safety issue. Tired horses can be unpredictable.
I would imagine the rider of the :1: saw the :3: was tiring and yelled "comin' through!"....
Nothing to see here.....In my opinion.

[PhantomOnTour]

Trouble line from her last race says "drifted out late"...maybe that happened again today.

I looked long and hard at betting this runner but passed the race - chalk looked too solid to go against

[Stillriledup]

...or, the 3 just happened to drift when urged and the jockey went immediately to the right handed stick to straighten the horse out.

Very subtle and expert move, made it look very innocent. But, if you watch it carefully again....

[Stillriledup]

The :3: was stopping. A hot first half of 46 and change did her in. ****Yep the rider did let the :1: through. *****
Its probably an unwritten rule that if your horse is spent, you don't block.
And why might this be? Simple. You'd want the same courtesy if the roles were reversed. Plus IMO it is a safety issue. Tired horses can be unpredictable.
I would imagine the rider of the :1: saw the :3: was tiring and yelled "comin' through!"....
Nothing to see here.....In my opinion.
Thank you, that's what i thought.

[cj]

Very subtle and expert move, made it look very innocent. But, if you watch it carefully again....

I have no problem with guys moving out of the way on a horse that is finished, it is a safety issue. I'm still not sure that is what happened here though.

[Stillriledup]

I have no problem with guys moving out of the way on a horse that is finished, it is a safety issue. I'm still not sure that is what happened here though.

This had nothing to do with safety. I'm more interested in the integrity issue, if we just permit jocks to do whatever they want under the guise that its "Safer" than the product suffers.

As far as what happened, the guy was riding in a straight line, he sensed his pal was inside of him and moved out of the way, its pretty obvious that as soon as the guy needed room, he got it. It wasnt a subtle/steady drift, it was one stride and boom, the guy was out of the way.

[cj]

This had nothing to do with safety. I'm more interested in the integrity issue, if we just permit jocks to do whatever they want under the guise that its "Safer" than the product suffers.

As far as what happened, the guy was riding in a straight line, he sensed his pal was inside of him and moved out of the way, its pretty obvious that as soon as the guy needed room, he got it. It wasnt a subtle/steady drift, it was one stride and boom, the guy was out of the way.

The horse had little left. A horse backing up quickly can absolutely be a safety issue. That said, I still don't see it that way. Why did he immediately whip right handed if it was intentional. I don't know how you ever place a bet if you believe 10% of what you post.

[Stillriledup]

The horse had little left. A horse backing up quickly can absolutely be a safety issue. That said, I still don't see it that way. Why did he immediately whip right handed if it was intentional. I don't know how you ever place a bet if you believe 10% of what you post.

I didnt notice the horse "backing up quickly". As far as whipping right handed, i'm not sure what that was, all i know is one moment the favorite had no chance to get out and wallah, he was clear an instant later.

[thespaah]

This had nothing to do with safety. I'm more interested in the integrity issue, if we just permit jocks to do whatever they want under the guise that its "Safer" than the product suffers.

As far as what happened, the guy was riding in a straight line, he sensed his pal was inside of him and moved out of the way, its pretty obvious that as soon as the guy needed room, he got it. It wasnt a subtle/steady drift, it was one stride and boom, the guy was out of the way.
"His pal"?...Come on now.....
It appears as though you are looking for something to be wrong.
Did you expect the rider of the tired horse to say "screw you. Go around me"...?
What happens if that rider is on your horse and that horse has tons of run left and another rider says "screw you. Go around me". And you horse gets blocked. Then what?
new thread? "Riders who won't get out of the way when their horse is done"?

[Stillriledup]

"His pal"?...Come on now.....
It appears as though you are looking for something to be wrong.
Did you expect the rider of the tired horse to say "screw you. Go around me"...?
What happens if that rider is on your horse and that horse has tons of run left and another rider says "screw you. Go around me". And you horse gets blocked. Then what?
new thread? "Riders who won't get out of the way when their horse is done"?

Why would a rider be "screwing" another rider by staying in his current path and riding hard to the wire? Why is that a lot to ask?

I'm asking for the game to have some integrity, is there a rule in the racing rule book that says a rider can help another rider out by altering his path to benefit another jock?

Racing already has a big integrity problem from the training side, we don't need the same to happen to jocks.

Just ride your horse, stay in your path and try and get your horse from point A to point B as fast as you can.

[EMD4ME]

Ask Kent Desormeaux and the connections of Real Quiet how they feel about bailey yanking his horse with all his might at the 1/4 to allow G Stevens a clear and no momentum lost path with Victory Gallop.......

I don't care if you have no horse, make the other guy/gal go around.

[thespaah]

Why would a rider be "screwing" another rider by staying in his current path and riding hard to the wire? Why is that a lot to ask?

I'm asking for the game to have some integrity, is there a rule in the racing rule book that says a rider can help another rider out by altering his path to benefit another jock?

Racing already has a big integrity problem from the training side, we don't need the same to happen to jocks.

Just ride your horse, stay in your path and try and get your horse from point A to point B as fast as you can.
Precisely the point. In the race in question, the horse that you claim moved over, was done. It made no sense for the rider to further drive this horse.
These are animals, not machines. Jockeys will let up on their mounts for the safety of the horse. There is always next time. Suppose they do it your way and keep after a tired horse and the animal breaks down. Then what?
How can you claim that easing up on a tired and hopelessly beaten horse is "helping" another entrant?
I don't see it that way. The rider of the tired horse is not doing anything deliberate except to preserve the well being of his mount.
"is there a rule in the racing rule book that says a rider can help another rider out by altering his path to benefit another jock?"...
We've already covered this in previous posts.

[Stillriledup]

Precisely the point. In the race in question, the horse that you claim moved over, was done. It made no sense for the rider to further drive this horse.
These are animals, not machines. Jockeys will let up on their mounts for the safety of the horse. There is always next time. Suppose they do it your way and keep after a tired horse and the animal breaks down. Then what?
How can you claim that easing up on a tired and hopelessly beaten horse is "helping" another entrant?
I don't see it that way. The rider of the tired horse is not doing anything deliberate except to preserve the well being of his mount.
"is there a rule in the racing rule book that says a rider can help another rider out by altering his path to benefit another jock?"...
We've already covered this in previous posts.

I'm not talking about a jock easing up, that's another pet peeve of mine that we can discuss at another time, i'm talking about a jock altering course to help another jockey win. There's a difference. Now, if the jock in question just stopped riding and stood up and slowed his horse down and the other jock got around him, that's fine, a done horse is a done horse, i'm not suggesting a jock beat a tiring horse to a pulp, that's not what i'm suggesting a jockey do.

If a horse is tiring, don't beat him up, but just (at least) lightly hand ride the horse to the finish, no whip is necessary, no aggressive hand ride, but stay in your lane, stay down in your crouch and just guide the tiring horse to the finish.

We don't need these pinheads to become "trainers on the fly" Their job is to ride the horse from point A to point B, stay in their lane and get to the wire, no matter how long it takes.

Its possible to protect a tiring animal without manipulating the outcome.

[NY BRED]

The jockey's winning share of that third race was $2,700. You really think jockeys are gonna pass up that kind of money to help out other jockeys?[/QUOTE]

Issue is not collusion with other jocks.
the Jockey could bee under instructions by the trainer not to "punish" his
mount; Being polite insures future mounts if that is the game for today's race

[Chris Longshot]

It's frustrating to the bettor but a lot of times the horse is just "done" and the jock wants to make sure other horses behind him are not put in harm's way. I can't say I see anything wrong with this, despite how upset you might get.

[KirisClown]

Ask the connections of Real Quiet how they feel about bailey yanking his horse with all his might at the 1/4 to allow G Stevens a clear and no momentum lost path with Victory Gallop.......

I don't care if you have no horse, make the other guy/gal go around.

Bailey was a busy man preventing Triple Crown winners... If not for Grand Slam and Eddington I guess we have two Crown winners in six years?

It seems Baffert and Pegram weren't too bothered though. A year later he became the regular rider of Silverbulletday and won the Hollywood Gold Cup on the aforementioned Real Quiet.

[Stillriledup]

It's frustrating to the bettor but a lot of times the horse is just "done" and the jock wants to make sure other horses behind him are not put in harm's way. I can't say I see anything wrong with this, despite how upset you might get.

The biggest problem is that the more "teflon" you permit jocks to be, the more they can get away with that has nothing to do with tiring horses or being safe. To me, the only safety issue is if a horse stops to a walk suddenly. Most horses don't just stop and pull themselves up due to exhaustion, most who are tired gradually fade, they don't go from 35 MPH to 5 MPH in 3 strides. So, unless that happens, jocks are to ride to win, stay in their lanes and urge their mounts to the wire.

I don't want a racing society where jocks have free reign to do whatever they want, to ride horses out for minor board spots if the fancy strikes them and feel no problem wrapping horses up if they "Feel something".

This issue at Belmont had nothing to do with safety, it was just a jock moving off to the side to help out another runner that he wasn't coupled in the wagering with, it had nothing to do with safety.

[thespaah]

I'm not talking about a jock easing up, that's another pet peeve of mine that we can discuss at another time, i'm talking about a jock altering course to help another jockey win. There's a difference. Now, if the jock in question just stopped riding and stood up and slowed his horse down and the other jock got around him, that's fine, a done horse is a done horse, i'm not suggesting a jock beat a tiring horse to a pulp, that's not what i'm suggesting a jockey do.

If a horse is tiring, don't beat him up, but just (at least) lightly hand ride the horse to the finish, no whip is necessary, no aggressive hand ride, but stay in your lane, stay down in your crouch and just guide the tiring horse to the finish.

We don't need these pinheads to become "trainers on the fly" Their job is to ride the horse from point A to point B, stay in their lane and get to the wire, no matter how long it takes.

Its possible to protect a tiring animal without manipulating the outcome.
Ok...We'll just agree to disagree.
One thing though....Remember the term used to describe the jockeys on the grounds of a racetrack.....A "colony"....These people have to compete with each other 4-6 days per week. The long and the short of it is "what goes around comes around".
You have convinced yourself that these actions are "assistance" or "manipulation"...I disagree. I see them as not only a safety issue but one of sportsmanship.
BTW, when a horse breaks down, the first person the trainer looks at with the stink eye is.......The person riding the horse.
Judging by your insistence there is something nefarious going on here, you may have had a bet on a horse other than the winner. In that I see potential bias here. I had no dog in this fight. However, it's happened where it caused me to lose a bet and times where it allowed me to hit a wager. It is what it is. And based on the fact that there was no inquiry or objection, well, you get the picture.
I can say with little uncertainty that if the :3: had not gotten out of the way of a charging :1: , the rider on that one would have stood up and jammed on the brakes making it look like the rider on the :3: pulled out a gun and shot the other horse. The moment he got to the scale, he'd have been on the phone with the Stewards.

[Stillriledup]

Ok...We'll just agree to disagree.
One thing though....Remember the term used to describe the jockeys on the grounds of a racetrack.....A "colony"....These people have to compete with each other 4-6 days per week. The long and the short of it is "what goes around comes around".
You have convinced yourself that these actions are "assistance" or "manipulation"...I disagree. I see them as not only a safety issue but one of sportsmanship.
BTW, when a horse breaks down, the first person the trainer looks at with the stink eye is.......The person riding the horse.
Judging by your insistence there is something nefarious going on here, you may have had a bet on a horse other than the winner. In that I see potential bias here. I had no dog in this fight. However, it's happened where it caused me to lose a bet and times where it allowed me to hit a wager. It is what it is. And based on the fact that there was no inquiry or objection, well, you get the picture.
I can say with little uncertainty that if the :3: had not gotten out of the way of a charging :1: , the rider on that one would have stood up and jammed on the brakes making it look like the rider on the :3: pulled out a gun and shot the other horse. The moment he got to the scale, he'd have been on the phone with the Stewards.

Very good post.

I guess its just part of racing where these guys are going to ride helping out others on occasion, its something that isn't going away and nobody would ever police it anyway.

[Stillriledup]

Guy on the 4 horse moved out of the way at Meadowlands in Race 4.

He set the pace and just moved over.

Nice job for an 0 for 57 jock.

[cj]

Guy on the 4 horse moved out of the way at Meadowlands in Race 4.

He set the pace and just moved over.

Nice job for an 0 for 57 jock.

Don't most tiring horses drift off the turn?

[Stillriledup]

Don't most tiring horses drift off the turn?

If a horse drifts due to being tired, won't he keep drifting? Or do they just drift enough to let their pal out and then magically they're in a straight line again?

[cj]

If a horse drifts due to being tired, won't he keep drifting? Or do they just drift enough to let their pal out and then magically they're in a straight line again?


Horses drift coming off of turns, and no, they don't keep drifting in the stretch. It is tougher to run the turn. I bet the 44 to 1 shot and have no issue with the ride.

[thespaah]

Does anyone have a link to post here. I went to thebigm.com and tried to watch. Damned thing locked up my compiter.
Requires .wmv to view. My computer didn't like it

[thespaah]

If a horse drifts due to being tired, won't he keep drifting? Or do they just drift enough to let their pal out and then magically they're in a straight line again?
Not necessarily. Some do. Some do not.
I take it you lost a bet on this race tonight.

[castaway01]

Does anyone have a link to post here. I went to thebigm.com and tried to watch. Damned thing locked up my compiter.
Requires .wmv to view. My computer didn't like it

Dude, a 44-1 horse led and tired in the stretch. There wasn't anything to see, except in one troll's mind.

[thespaah]

Dude, a 44-1 horse led and tired in the stretch. There wasn't anything to see, except in one troll's mind.
Hardly the point. I was merely asking for a link so that I could see for myself...
Got a problem with that?

[cj]

Hardly the point. I was merely asking for a link so that I could see for myself...
Got a problem with that?

I'm sure he doesn't. The horse drifted, the jock didn't move. I was watching closely because I bet the longshot. The heavy favorite was going to get through either way, didn't matter.

[Stillriledup]

Not necessarily. Some do. Some do not.
I take it you lost a bet on this race tonight.

I try not to discuss losing wagers, because if i discuss them, i also have to talk about winning wagers and talk about scores, and i know people get in an uproar if anyone posts winning scores, so i try and do neither.

This is about whether the guy specifically "released" the pocket sitter and not about my bets. I believe he did, i'm pretty sure the video will back it up. If you watch the tape and think that the guy did everything in his power to stay in a straight line and the horse just took him where the horse wanted to go, that's your right, you're allowed to have that opinion, we can just agree to disagree.

[thespaah]

I try not to discuss losing wagers, because if i discuss them, i also have to talk about winning wagers and talk about scores, and i know people get in an uproar if anyone posts winning scores, so i try and do neither.

This is about whether the guy specifically "released" the pocket sitter and not about my bets. I believe he did, i'm pretty sure the video will back it up. If you watch the tape and think that the guy did everything in his power to stay in a straight line and the horse just took him where the horse wanted to go, that's your right, you're allowed to have that opinion, we can just agree to disagree.
I think the term "red boarding" has been taken to an idiotic level.
It has, with certain individuals, become some sort of DEFCON 1 offense punishable by a flogging in the town square.
So instead of innocently sharing a good story of a successful day at the races, we all have to temper our comments so as to not 'offend' these nattering nabobs.
I say "screw 'em. If they are that jealous or cynical about the good fortunes of others, well then they will just have to be pissed off.
Unfortunately, I don't trust the Meadowlands website, which until now, have never had an issue, since it locked up my computer last nite while trying to access the race in question. I actually had to reboot my system.

[cj]

I think the term "red boarding" has been taken to an idiotic level.
It has, with certain individuals, become some sort of DEFCON 1 offense punishable by a flogging in the town square.
So instead of innocently sharing a good story of a successful day at the races, we all have to temper our comments so as to not 'offend' these nattering nabobs.
I say "screw 'em. If they are that jealous or cynical about the good fortunes of others, well then they will just have to be pissed off.
Unfortunately, I don't trust the Meadowlands website, which until now, have never had an issue, since it locked up my computer last nite while trying to access the race in question. I actually had to reboot my system.

Here is the replay, just ignore the sound which is my TV in the background, used a screen recorder:

http://www.pacefigures.com/Med0918R4.avi

Note he is whipping right handed while the horse drifts.

[thespaah]

Here is the replay, just ignore the sound which is my TV in the background, used a screen recorder:

http://www.pacefigures.com/Med0918R4.avi

Note he is whipping right handed while the horse drifts.
Ok....That's a whole lot of "nothing to see here".
The jock asks the horse for something more through a balzing 6f in sixteen and change. Came up empty. The horse is clearly out of gas and does drift. Rider gives the horse the cursory whip taps in an effort to keep him straight.
Thanks much for posting the link.

[Stillriledup]

Ok....That's a whole lot of "nothing to see here".
The jock asks the horse for something more through a balzing 6f in sixteen and change. Came up empty. The horse is clearly out of gas and does drift. Rider gives the horse the cursory whip taps in an effort to keep him straight.
Thanks much for posting the link.

Most horses are "out of gas" turning for home, that's why internal fractions get slower as races get longer.

You watch a lot of races, you know that most horses maintain straight lines, tired or not, i'm not telling you something you don't already know.

[cj]

Most horses are "out of gas" turning for home, that's why internal fractions get slower as races get longer.

You watch a lot of races, you know that most horses maintain straight lines, tired or not, i'm not telling you something you don't already know.

Actually, you are telling us you don't watch a lot of races.