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View Full Version : Time to go offshore?


tlinetrader
11-06-2013, 11:30 PM
With ADW's being shutdown in states like texas, PA and NY (just found out IdaBet won't take NY accounts) perhaps it's time to look offshore. I was wondering what the folks here thought and if anyone would share experiences, good or bad. I visited the 5dimes website and it looks pretty interesting.

wiffleball whizz
11-06-2013, 11:34 PM
With ADW's being shutdown in states like texas, PA and NY (just found out IdaBet won't take NY accounts) perhaps it's time to look offshore. I was wondering what the folks here thought and if anyone would share experiences, good or bad. I visited the 5dimes website and it looks pretty interesting.


Rule of thumb.......if they advertise in big time magazines, sports illustrated playboy etc etc etc there good

Augenj
11-06-2013, 11:48 PM
With ADW's being shutdown in states like texas, PA and NY (just found out IdaBet won't take NY accounts) perhaps it's time to look offshore. I was wondering what the folks here thought and if anyone would share experiences, good or bad. I visited the 5dimes website and it looks pretty interesting.
I'm thinking the same thing too. 5Dimes seems to be highly rated.

lamboguy
11-06-2013, 11:50 PM
its illegal to place bets offshore, not many federal prosecutions, but if they want to they can come after you. i hold racing licenses in different states, its not worth the risk for me. if you are a shortstop, i am sure they won't come after you.

tlinetrader
11-07-2013, 12:31 AM
Not interested in breaking the law. My understanding is that if horse race betting is legal where you live (it is) then its not illegal to bet online onshore or offshore. The problem is funding the account.

Dave Schwartz
11-07-2013, 01:17 AM
I would be very careful about betting illegally from Texas.

A client of mine from back in the '90s was a lawyer in Houston. He had to defend a guy on felony bookmaking charges because he drove to LAD with like $80 worth of bets for friends. Seriously, they tried to put the guy in jail.

He pleaded the case down but the guy wound up with probation and a lifetime barring from all TX racetracks.

lamboguy
11-07-2013, 02:46 AM
I would be very careful about betting illegally from Texas.

A client of mine from back in the '90s was a lawyer in Houston. He had to defend a guy on felony bookmaking charges because he drove to LAD with like $80 worth of bets for friends. Seriously, they tried to put the guy in jail.

He pleaded the case down but the guy wound up with probation and a lifetime barring from all TX racetracks.good points Dave, there are a ton of horse player's in Texas, that might be one of the biggest reasons that handles have decreased so much lately. the racing industry can't afford to lose customer's from Texas like they have.

pandy
11-07-2013, 09:45 AM
I have very good experiences with Bookmaker, when I was using them I was on a hot streak and they never gave me any trouble and sent me my withdrawals quickly. Bodog seems good. Once my son lost a $50 wager on an NFL game where the ref blew a call at the end of the game and Bodog contacted him and said that they were giving everyone who lost money on the game their money back, credited him $50.

lamboguy
11-07-2013, 09:55 AM
I have very good experiences with Bookmaker, when I was using them I was on a hot streak and they never gave me any trouble and sent me my withdrawals quickly. Bodog seems good. Once my son lost a $50 wager on an NFL game where the ref blew a call at the end of the game and Bodog contacted him and said that they were giving everyone who lost money on the game their money back, credited him $50.giving the money back has to be one of the greatest pr moves of all time. they certainly didn't have to do that.

precocity
11-07-2013, 09:57 AM
I would be very careful about betting illegally from Texas.

A client of mine from back in the '90s was a lawyer in Houston. He had to defend a guy on felony bookmaking charges because he drove to LAD with like $80 worth of bets for friends. Seriously, they tried to put the guy in jail.

He pleaded the case down but the guy wound up with probation and a lifetime barring from all TX racetracks.

that really doesn't make sense? going to LAD to make 80$ bets for friends. and a felony charge, something else must of happened like he was a bookie and had incrementing logs on him or a paper trail. but if you say so, dont take it the wrong way just sounds bizarre.

lamboguy
11-07-2013, 10:05 AM
that really doesn't make sense? going to LAD to make 80$ bets for friends. and a felony charge, something else must of happened like he was a bookie and had incrementing logs on him or a paper trail. but if you say so, dont take it the wrong way just sounds bizarre.
that's the way they are in Texas, there was a 3 strikes and your out guy in California that got life for stealing a slice of pizza. he is a habitual criminal that steals small things and wasn't violent.

but yet guys like Steve Cohen of SAC that must have stolen $50 billion got off with paying a fine of $1.3 billion and he has about $3 billion left in his bankroll.

that's the justice system

pandy
11-07-2013, 10:10 AM
giving the money back has to be one of the greatest pr moves of all time. they certainly didn't have to do that.

I believe it was that bizarre Monday night football game where the Seahawks beat Green Bay on that end zone TD that looked like an interception, a terrible call by the replacement officials.

It was an impressive decision by Bodog, which is owned by one of the largest gaming companies in the world.

tlinetrader
11-07-2013, 11:39 AM
Found this website that has quite a bit of legal info as well recommended sites for horseplayers:

http://www.legalonlinegamblingsites.com/

Dave Schwartz
11-07-2013, 01:21 PM
that really doesn't make sense? going to LAD to make 80$ bets for friends. and a felony charge, something else must of happened like he was a bookie and had incrementing logs on him or a paper trail. but if you say so, dont take it the wrong way just sounds bizarre.

I said the same thing when I first heard about it.

Trust me on this... The above is accurate. The guy was a professional, working in an office. He was absolutely not a bookie.

What happened was the guy stopped on the way out of town to buy a DRF at the newstand he always stopped at and suddenly found himself surrounded by police.

He had several slips of paper in his pocket with notes on the bets he was to make for his friends. Seriously, $90. They called these his "betting slips."

No "bookie" drives from Houston to LAD for $90 worth of bets.

It was ridiculous.

Lasix67
11-07-2013, 08:11 PM
I said the same thing when I first heard about it.

Trust me on this... The above is accurate. The guy was a professional, working in an office. He was absolutely not a bookie.

What happened was the guy stopped on the way out of town to buy a DRF at the newstand he always stopped at and suddenly found himself surrounded by police.

He had several slips of paper in his pocket with notes on the bets he was to make for his friends. Seriously, $90. They called these his "betting slips."

No "bookie" drives from Houston to LAD for $90 worth of bets.

It was ridiculous.

Huh. Why did he go to LAD when he could have gone to Sam Houston or even Lone Star. I don't get it.

Thebart
11-07-2013, 08:26 PM
There is no such thing in the USA as legal offshore horse wagering. If it were legal methods to deposit and withdraw funds would be much simpler.

Thebart
11-07-2013, 08:33 PM
Sorry to be a killjoy. But literally all the sites on that page are NOT legal for USA customers.

The underlying principle: It is illegal to engage in offshore sports and race gambling from within the USA. I don't claim to know anything about casino or poker type gambling. But sports and racing are strictly a venture at your own risk proposition.

The site you list also mentions sports wagering from New Jersey and Delaware. Delaware's lottery offers parlay cards on NFL football, that is all. You have to go to Delaware Park to place bets. Nothing on Line.

While NJ passed a law authorizing sports wagering that law is contrary to federal law and is being litigated. There is not sports wagering in NJ, on or offline.

Dave Schwartz
11-07-2013, 09:03 PM
Lasix,

I have no idea. Maybe he wanted to go to LAD.

I have no dog in this fight. Believe it or not as you choose.

Lasix67
11-07-2013, 09:10 PM
Lasix,

I have no idea. Maybe he wanted to go to LAD.

I have no dog in this fight. Believe it or not as you choose.

I understand Dave. I just don't see how it would be illegal if I went from Houston like him to let say Delta Downs which is much closer to make wagers on the ponies. There must be more to that story wouldn't you think?

MONEY
11-07-2013, 09:19 PM
Huh. Why did he go to LAD when he could have gone to Sam Houston or even Lone Star. I don't get it.

Texas does not have casinos.
Many people travel from Texas to Louisiana for the casinos.

Dave Schwartz
11-07-2013, 09:31 PM
I understand Dave. I just don't see how it would be illegal if I went from Houston like him to let say Delta Downs which is much closer to make wagers on the ponies. There must be more to that story wouldn't you think?


That is precisely what I said to the attorney. He insisted that, as ridiculous as it sounded, this was it.

Ruined the guy's life. Lost his job and his profession because he was a convicted felon.

Fox
11-08-2013, 02:05 AM
The underlying principle: It is illegal to engage in offshore sports and race gambling from within the USA.
.

Could you elaborate on exactly which Federal laws you are referring to? And if you say UIGEA or Federal Wire Act, please be specific as to which words from the bettor's perspective make it "......illegal to engage in offshore sports and race gambling from within the USA".

Thanks.

raybo
11-08-2013, 04:08 AM
Well, say what you will but if my only remaining ADW drops me like TS did, and I still want to play the horses, I will definitely go offshore. I know a couple of guys in Texas who have been playing offshore ever since the original law outlawing Texas residents from playing Texas tracks through an ADW. Neither have ever had any problems with law enforcement or getting there money from their offshore ADW.

I'm not disputing Dave but if the guy simply stopped to buy a racing form and suddenly he was surrounded by cops, then there is something else to that story that the felon isn't telling. He would have had to have done something else beforehand to draw the cops, or they were already watching him for some reason. Cops don't just surround you coming out of a convenience store after buying a racing form. They usually have a very good reason to respond in that kind of numbers. Maybe his car looked like one they were looking for regarding another crime, or something of the sort. Maybe he smart mouthed 1 cop and backup responded and they decided to stick it to him because of his attitude, who knows. Texas law enforcement people don't mess around, that's true, but they usually don't just come after you, in force, unless they have a very good reason.

precocity
11-08-2013, 08:37 AM
Well, say what you will but if my only remaining ADW drops me like TS did, and I still want to play the horses, I will definitely go offshore. I know a couple of guys in Texas who have been playing offshore ever since the original law outlawing Texas residents from playing Texas tracks through an ADW. Neither have ever had any problems with law enforcement or getting there money from their offshore ADW.

I'm not disputing Dave but if the guy simply stopped to buy a racing form and suddenly he was surrounded by cops, then there is something else to that story that the felon isn't telling. He would have had to have done something else beforehand to draw the cops, or they were already watching him for some reason. Cops don't just surround you coming out of a convenience store after buying a racing form. They usually have a very good reason to respond in that kind of numbers. Maybe his car looked like one they were looking for regarding another crime, or something of the sort. Maybe he smart mouthed 1 cop and backup responded and they decided to stick it to him because of his attitude, who knows. Texas law enforcement people don't mess around, that's true, but they usually don't just come after you, in force, unless they have a very good reason.
raybo pm me if you want to know what the hell i did off the shore. :cool:

davew
11-08-2013, 09:13 AM
make sure if you do, you read all the terms and conditions

usually you will find stuff like bet limits (min - max)
no 10 or 20 cent supers, or multiple pick bets - $1 min
max bets never seen at parimutual (high depends on quality of track)
max pay-offs (frequently only pay so high on some or all of bet)
needing all runners when payoff is for x-x-all to get the lower payoff
inability to cancel once bet made
closing of race betting before it actually is OFF


and always you have to wonder if sometimes they lay off some of the bet back into the parimutual pool (lowering their exposure and your pay-off)

they do sometimes give bigger rebates tha the casual bettor would get
they do not always have the current scratches
they frequently do not offer the same bets as track (exotic exotics)
and you can get around your states restriction on tracks

raybo
11-08-2013, 10:02 AM
make sure if you do, you read all the terms and conditions

usually you will find stuff like bet limits (min - max)
no 10 or 20 cent supers, or multiple pick bets - $1 min
max bets never seen at parimutual (high depends on quality of track)
max pay-offs (frequently only pay so high on some or all of bet)
needing all runners when payoff is for x-x-all to get the lower payoff
inability to cancel once bet made
closing of race betting before it actually is OFF


and always you have to wonder if sometimes they lay off some of the bet back into the parimutual pool (lowering their exposure and your pay-off)

they do sometimes give bigger rebates tha the casual bettor would get
they do not always have the current scratches
they frequently do not offer the same bets as track (exotic exotics)
and you can get around your states restriction on tracks

Yeah, I know you gotta check them out close before getting involved.

I suppose one could use a friend's or relative's address in another state to open a US ADW account, if your friend or relative doesn't mind and will cover for you should someone decide to check it out. Might be just about as dangerous to do that as opening an offshore account. :eek:

Phantombridgejumpe
11-08-2013, 04:49 PM
What would you do if you woke up one morning and the site was out of business.

You can't exactly call the authorities. I think this happened with some offshore poker sites.

It isn't legal - I don't know the name or code for the laws.

pandy
11-08-2013, 05:35 PM
Bookmaker is owned by Cris, which has been in business in 1985, operates out of Costa Rica. Bovada (bodog), which is Calvin Ayre's company, was founded in 1994 and operates out of the U.K. The only way the website of these companies would go away is if the U.S. government figures out how to block them, but with the legit off shore books, if that happens they will send you the money that's in your account. Bad publicity is just as bad for them as any company because all of the international racebooks are rated and reviewed by online sources.

These companies take in a lot of sports bets, especially on the NFL. This shows how dumb our government is. U.S. Casinos like Caesars, Sands, etc., could be taking this action and the taxes they pay could help to pay down our enormous deficit. Personally, I think that sports gambling should be legalized and the Federal Gov't should take 1% off the top of the new profits and use it to fund Social Security.

precocity
11-08-2013, 08:32 PM
Bookmaker is owned by Cris, which has been in business in 1985, operates out of Costa Rica. Bovada (bodog), which is Calvin Ayre's company, was founded in 1994 and operates out of the U.K. The only way the website of these companies would go away is if the U.S. government figures out how to block them, but with the legit off shore books, if that happens they will send you the money that's in your account. Bad publicity is just as bad for them as any company because all of the international racebooks are rated and reviewed by online sources.

These companies take in a lot of sports bets, especially on the NFL. This shows how dumb our government is. U.S. Casinos like Caesars, Sands, etc., could be taking this action and the taxes they pay could help to pay down our enormous deficit. Personally, I think that sports gambling should be legalized and the Federal Gov't should take 1% off the top of the new profits and use it to fund Social Security.
good post! agreed!

pandy
11-08-2013, 08:56 PM
Thank you. Now if we could get the morons in Congress to actually do something that makes sense for the middle class we'd be in business.

raybo
11-08-2013, 09:29 PM
Thank you. Now if we could get the morons in Congress to actually do something that makes sense for the middle class we'd be in business.

It's yet another example of government telling its citizens what they can and can't do. That has never worked and never will, when do they get the message?

pandy
11-08-2013, 09:37 PM
It's yet another example of government telling its citizens what they can and can't do. That has never worked and never will, when do they get the message?

When we have a revolution, which I believe will happen eventually. Not a war like the U.S revolution but a peaceful revolution where a third party takes over the Senate, the House, and the Presidency. It's not that far fetched but I would imagine it's a few decades away. The Democrats and Republicans are hopeless because they are bought by special interests. Without Campaign finance reform nothing will get done, and only a third party would consider that. These two parties are too enamored with the money.

Robert Goren
11-08-2013, 10:15 PM
When we have a revolution, which I believe will happen eventually. Not a war like the U.S revolution but a peaceful revolution where a third party takes over the Senate, the House, and the Presidency. It's not that far fetched but I would imagine it's a few decades away. The Democrats and Republicans are hopeless because they are bought by special interests. Without Campaign finance reform nothing will get done, and only a third party would consider that. These two parties are too enamored with the money.Before you support a new party, just make sure they support what you really want them to do issue by issue including gambling issues. Just because they claim to be for smaller government doesn't mean they are for opening up gambling.

Phantombridgejumpe
11-09-2013, 12:54 AM
You agree it isn't legal, correct?

pandy
11-09-2013, 07:28 AM
If the gov't arrested everyone who bets online through off shore books they would have to build a few thousand more jails. And they can't afford to run the ones they have now.

Robert Goren
11-09-2013, 09:35 AM
If the gov't arrested everyone who bets online through off shore books they would have to build a few thousand more jails. And they can't afford to run the ones they have now.They haven't so far. I remember they used the argument when people were illegally downloading music from such sites as Napster. That being said, I agree that your biggest worry is the site you're dealing with and getting your money. Unless you are the world's best gambler, it probably isn't worth the trouble and the risk.

raybo
11-09-2013, 12:43 PM
They haven't so far. I remember they used the argument when people were illegally downloading music from such sites as Napster. That being said, I agree that your biggest worry is the site you're dealing with and getting your money. Unless you are the world's best gambler, it probably isn't worth the trouble and the risk.

Most players don't need to worry about getting their money back because they are going to lose it anyway. Those players that are profitable probably/should know that they should keep only "needed" funds in those accounts, removing excess funds periodically. This helps protect one from losing large sums of money if something unforeseen happens. In other words, use your noggin.

raybo
11-09-2013, 12:48 PM
You agree it isn't legal, correct?

Yes, it's illegal, but what is really illegal is government telling us what we can do with our own money, where we can spend it and what we can spend it on. Horse race wagering itself is a legal product, so if we choose to wager on it then we are spending our money on a legal product. So, who is really doing something illegal, the player or the government?

pandy
11-09-2013, 01:02 PM
That's what I always did, when I got over a certain amount I withdrew some.

Thebart
11-09-2013, 07:24 PM
I don't do legal research. I just know that between state laws that restrict on-line gambling and federal laws you cite it's a pretty iffy proposition to transfer money to an offshore venue and hope that if you bet and win you will get it all back.

Until someone can show me a court decision where the Department of Justice's policies against Internet gambling have been struck down, I'll stick with the notion that it's illegal. I don't have the resources to fight City Hall on this one. Frankly I don't want to.

Simple fact is companies like Moneybookers and others pulled out of the U.S. due to legal restrictions on electronic money transfers for gambling purposes. After looking at the "payout" policies of almost all of the offshore gambling operations, my own conclusion is that some of the complexity is not about security, it's about making you jump through hoops to get your money. I don't want to be in that world.

Good luck.

Could you elaborate on exactly which Federal laws you are referring to? And if you say UIGEA or Federal Wire Act, please be specific as to which words from the bettor's perspective make it "......illegal to engage in offshore sports and race gambling from within the USA".

Thanks.

Hoofless_Wonder
11-09-2013, 07:49 PM
Rule of thumb.......if they advertise in big time magazines, sports illustrated playboy etc etc etc there good

I'd disagree with that. It doesn't take that much money to buy a print ad in even a major magazine, as print products in general have nose-dived in popularity. The offshore books that closed out U.S. accounts in early 2007 due to the "Port Authority Act" (or whatever) are the only legit ones, IMHO. Their business is and was large enough they didn't want to risk tangling with the U.S. government. The "little guys" offshore are always at risk for getting bought out and your account info "lost", or simply going out of business.

I sweated out getting my money out of Pinnacle via Netteller when the Feds clamped down back in 2007, but lucked out and got it just before Netteller suspended many US accounts for months. Also had my account at IASBET closed out at the same time, which I really miss 'cause I could get fixed odds wagering on Aussie and Hong Kong racing.

It was always my understanding that in many states it was not technically illegal to wager online with poker, horses or sports. But the Feds have always clamped down on the transfer of funds across state lines to control it, and that will continue as long as the politicians are getting their "share" via kickbacks and other means of graft.

If you're wagering at one of the sites offshore that handles US account holders, you could easily have that company or the one transferring your funds get shut down without notice and you get hosed. Worse, you could get "Caponed" and get in legal troubles should the authorities ever take a close look at your financials for any other reason.

For me, at this time, it's just not worth the risk.

Fox
11-09-2013, 08:25 PM
I don't do legal research. I just know that between state laws that restrict on-line gambling and federal laws you cite it's a pretty iffy proposition to transfer money to an offshore venue and hope that if you bet and win you will get it all back.

Until someone can show me a court decision where the Department of Justice's policies against Internet gambling have been struck down, I'll stick with the notion that it's illegal. I don't have the resources to fight City Hall on this one. Frankly I don't want to.

Simple fact is companies like Moneybookers and others pulled out of the U.S. due to legal restrictions on electronic money transfers for gambling purposes. After looking at the "payout" policies of almost all of the offshore gambling operations, my own conclusion is that some of the complexity is not about security, it's about making you jump through hoops to get your money. I don't want to be in that world.

Good luck.

Well, it sounds like you really don't know. You should probably refrain from making declarations then about what is and isn't legal. After all, it is illegal to put something on the internet that isn't true. You could go to jail.

Red Knave
11-09-2013, 09:48 PM
After all, it is illegal to put something on the internet that isn't true. You could go to jail.

Well, I laughed. :D



No, honest, I did! :eek:

raybo
11-09-2013, 10:15 PM
Well, I laughed. :D



No, honest, I did! :eek:

I'm still trying to figure out if he was kidding and was referring to the commercial, or if he really thinks that. :confused:

Robert Goren
11-09-2013, 10:32 PM
Most players don't need to worry about getting their money back because they are going to lose it anyway. Those players that are profitable probably/should know that they should keep only "needed" funds in those accounts, removing excess funds periodically. This helps protect one from losing large sums of money if something unforeseen happens. In other words, use your noggin. "needed funds" can be a fairly large sum and it probably would be if you bet overseas considering the problems with funding and de-funding your account. You can't operate on $500, if you are making $100 bets. Of course if you are "using your noggin", you would not have any money over seas in any kind of gambling account these days.

thaskalos
11-09-2013, 11:03 PM
The only advice I can give on the subject is to avoid opening an account with Bodog, unless you really don't need the money.

davew
11-10-2013, 01:28 AM
Well, it sounds like you really don't know. You should probably refrain from making declarations then about what is and isn't legal. After all, it is illegal to put something on the internet that isn't true. You could go to jail.

Illegal in what jurisdiction?

raybo
11-10-2013, 02:55 AM
Illegal in what jurisdiction?

LOL, didn't you know, "You can't put anything on the internet that isn't true."? :lol:

raybo
11-10-2013, 02:58 AM
The only advice I can give on the subject is to avoid opening an account with Bodog, unless you really don't need the money.

Sounds like you have had dealings with Bodog in the past. You can't do something like that without checking it out thoroughly first. And, it's not advisable to keep a lot of money in those accounts. A little common sense goes a long way.

precocity
11-10-2013, 06:53 AM
well yalllllllll im from texas and offfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff fffff
shore
been got toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


ayyeeeee!!!!! :D

Robert Goren
11-10-2013, 09:20 AM
The only advice I can give on the subject is to avoid opening an account with Bodog, unless you really don't need the money.After having money in a Bodog poker account and having them change the way they do business, I would wholeheartedly agree.

comet52
11-12-2013, 12:19 PM
Not illegal but they made moving money really hard. That's when I got out of online sportsbetting. As for legality, the wire act and feds in general are only interested in bookmaking. I never heard of anyone getting prosecuted for gambling. Local or national agencies would have to go after every gambler, impossible to not do selective prosecutions which wouldn't hold up.

The laws against gambling in state jurisdictions are again mostly about running an operation, casino, book, etc. They are to discourage the business of gambling, as the wire act states, not the act of making a bet. The gov is interested in the business side because of the money, tax money to be exact. It's always about the money though phony pols will make "moral" arguments or talk shit about "the children."

Also betting horses with an offshore, exotic payouts will be capped. A big one won't pay what it pays in a pool, you are wagering with a bookie not betting into a mutuel. Read the fine print.

Dark Horse
11-20-2013, 12:27 AM
5Dimes, Bookmaker, and Heritage are probably the most reliable outfits for US players. 5Dimes has best rebates. For non-US players Pinnacle is the place.