Havana not whipped

[cj]

Just learned from Steve Byk of "At the Races" that Gary Stevens was instructed by Todd Pletcher not to use the whip during the Juvenile. Isn't that something bettors have a right to know? I don't know why exactly, but this really rubs me the wrong way.

I love this game like no other, but man does it make it tough sometimes.

[Stillriledup]

Its tricky because what if they announce that the whip won't be used and bettors bet millions of dollars knowing that information and then the jock just forgets in the heat of a tight stretch battle and uses the whip?

I think a scenario like that would make things worse than just 'heresay' from what a jock was told by his trainer.

What about the horse Laughing in the turf race won by Dank? I would have loved to know she wasnt really in the race to try to win and the jock was "told" to manipulate her natural running style and take her far back off the lead.

Another case of why its better to be at home watching racing on tv, if you are at home watching on tv, you could theoretically have heard the rumor that this horse might not be whipped thru a roving reporter....if you're at the track live, you have zero shot to find out this information before you bet.

The Life at Ten situation was a great example, if you were home watching on tv, you might have heard the horse was struggling in the warmups, if you were live and on track, you had zero shot to know this.

[cj]

They announce when a rider won't carry a whip, don't really see this as much different. If a rider is carrying one, he shouldn't be instructed not to use it.

[Relwob Owner]

Just learned from Steve Byk of "At the Races" that Gary Stevens was instructed by Todd Pletcher not to use the whip during the Juvenile. Isn't that something bettors have a right to know? I don't know why exactly, but this really rubs me the wrong way.

I love this game like no other, but man does it make it tough sometimes.


Tough one. I guess I would think that Pletcher's advice was in the interest of having the horse run as well he could, so if that is the case, then I dont think I have an issue with the bettors not knowing.

[Stillriledup]

They announce when a rider won't carry a whip, don't really see this as much different. If a rider is carrying one, he shouldn't be instructed not to use it.

I see your point, its just that if they announce to the public that the jock has a whip but won't use it, what happens if he changes his mind during the race, or forgets, and actually uses it? How would you feel if you bet on a horse who was nose to nose with Havana with 70 yards to go and the guy started beating Havana to a pulp and beat you by a snot after you heard beforehand that the trainer told the jock not to use the whip?

[Relwob Owner]

They announce when a rider won't carry a whip, don't really see this as much different. If a rider is carrying one, he shouldn't be instructed not to use it.


It is a tough one and your comparison to what they do when they do not have a whip makes sense.

[speed]

They announce when a rider won't carry a whip, don't really see this as much different. If a rider is carrying one, he shouldn't be instructed not to use it.
You know that some horses sulk when hit. Perhaps that is the case. Whip can still be showed to the horse as well as used to aid in running straight. Certainly can give some the impression he didn't give it his all though.

[cj]

I see your point, its just that if they announce to the public that the jock has a whip but won't use it, what happens if he changes his mind during the race, or forgets, and actually uses it? How would you feel if you bet on a horse who was nose to nose with Havana with 70 yards to go and the guy started beating Havana to a pulp and beat you by a snot after you heard beforehand that the trainer told the jock not to use the whip?

Yeah, you said that already, got anything else?

[OTM Al]

Just learned from Steve Byk of "At the Races" that Gary Stevens was instructed by Todd Pletcher not to use the whip during the Juvenile. Isn't that something bettors have a right to know? I don't know why exactly, but this really rubs me the wrong way.

I love this game like no other, but man does it make it tough sometimes.

Only question I would have before making some judgement here is did he do this because of the horse's behavior? For some horses, going to the whip makes them run worse. It is possible that not whipping may have been the best thing to do.

[Relwob Owner]

Only question I would have before making some judgement here is did he do this because of the horse's behavior? For some horses, going to the whip makes them run worse. It is possible that not whipping may have been the best thing to do.

I agree and if it is the best thing to do and it is done to give the horse the best chance to win, I am fine with not disclosing it. That is my overall feeling about it but as CJ said, it doesnt really line up with the current rule of disclosing no whip at all being used.

[cj]

Only question I would have before making some judgement here is did he do this because of the horse's behavior? For some horses, going to the whip makes them run worse. It is possible that not whipping may have been the best thing to do.

Could very well be, don't doubt that for a second he believed that. (Though he had the crap whipped out of him when running his furlong prior to sale according to Doug Salvatore) Don't we have the right to know as bettors that somebody carrying a whip isn't going to use it?

Picture new fans at the Breeder's Cup watching horses being smacked often repeatedly in races, then they bet Havana and watch Stevens not do any whipping. How does that look if they weren't told beforehand? It isn't like he was an also ran.

[Track Phantom]

This ranks about 23rd on the list of things that should be disclosed to horse players. However, it just won't happen.

Horse players are a necessary evil. The tracks need them for their money and cheering (ambiance during the races on big days) but have absolutely ZERO concern for them beyond that. And when I say ZERO, I mean ZERO. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

We, as horse players, can concern ourselves with all we don't know that should be disclosed to us but we are pissing in the wind.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, you said that already, got anything else?

What else do i need?

And you never addressed the idea that an announcement could be made and the jock could change his mind with 70 yards to go. How do you handle a situation like that?

[camourous]

Maybe Pletcher said this after the fact so Stevens wouldn't look bad for hand riding down the lane

[Grits]

FWIW and it may not mean a thing, still, its possibly interesting:

Not the horse you're speaking of. A different horse. One, too, who doesn't like the whip as Stevens explained...

(from the transcript of the post BCC press conference.)

As I was watching the Classic replay I noticed that Stevens never hit Mucho Macho Man with the whip, instead he was just showing it to him all the way down the stretch. Turns out, there was as reason for that. "One thing that I thought I had seen in some of his races is a horse that gives you everything. I think they don't necessarily want to be hit with the stick sometimes. I tested him again in the Awesome Again, and he didn't like it. You don't know how hard it was today not to go to the whip, but he doesn't like it.

He was giving me everything that he had. Inside the 16th pole when I twirled my whip and didn't hit him with it, he surged again. It was like "oh, thank you, buddy. You're not going to hit me." So he's a very intelligent horse, and just a cool dude to be around."

(The link to the press conference, I posted in a thread here, yesterday, I believe.)

[cj]

What else do i need?

And you never addressed the idea that an announcement could be made and the jock could change his mind with 70 yards to go. How do you handle a situation like that?

You fine him just like when they do something else they aren't supposed to do.

[cj]

Maybe Pletcher said this after the fact so Stevens wouldn't look bad for hand riding down the lane

Anything is possible, but I don't think there was anything nefarious going on here. I think he was following instructions. I just also think bettors have a right to know if it is predetermined.

[Grits]

This quote, from the Washington Post sports section:

"The seconds included Havana, the favorite for trainer Todd Pletcher in the $2 million Breeders’ Cup Juvenile, one of two Velazquez mounts taken over by 50-year-old Hall of Famer Gary Stevens.

Stevens steered Havana to the lead and what looked like a victory in the homestretch before the colt lost steam and was overtaken by trainer Bob Baffert’s New Year’s Day.

“It was a great try,” Stevens said.

With little time for instructions, Stevens said Havana’s connections kept it simple, saying nothing more than hold on to the whip.

“They just told me not to hit him,” Stevens said."

[Valuist]

Pletcher has some explaining to do. If the rider is instructed to not use the whip, then why is he carrying one?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Pletcher has some explaining to do. If the rider is instructed to not use the whip, then why is he carrying one?

To help control the horse pre-race and entering the gate - if needed.

[Stillriledup]

You fine him just like when they do something else they aren't supposed to do.

Fine him? For what? Why would a jock or a trainer tell the judges they are going to carry the whip but not use it if they knew that changing their mind midstream would carry a fine? You just keep the info private and tell the jock dont use the whip....this way, he could change his mind and nobody would be the wiser.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Fine him? For what? Why would a jock or a trainer tell the judges they are going to carry the whip but not use it if they knew that changing their mind midstream would carry a fine? You just keep the info private and tell the jock dont use the whip....this way, he could change his mind and nobody would be the wiser.

...says the guy who is always looking for better disclosure

[Relwob Owner]

Anything is possible, but I don't think there was anything nefarious going on here. I think he was following instructions. I just also think bettors have a right to know if it is predetermined.


Playing devil's advocate, would you do have done anything differently betting wise with Havana if it was disclosed they werent going to whip the horse? Maybe it is different in a lesser race(maybe they are trying out a tactic and are pointing to a bigger race) but in a bigger race, I dont think most bettors would think it is anything other than it being done to give the horse the best chance to win

[Robert Fischer]

Havana has shown some negative body language signs in the stretch in all his races, most pronounced in the Champagne Stakes.

[cj]

Playing devil's advocate, would you do have done anything differently betting wise with Havana if it was disclosed they werent going to whip the horse? Maybe it is different in a lesser race(maybe they are trying out a tactic and are pointing to a bigger race) but in a bigger race, I dont think most bettors would think it is anything other than it being done to give the horse the best chance to win

If I have two horses that are rated equal in ability, and I know one will get whipped and one won't, it absolutely will be a factor. If whips weren't an advantage, nobody would use them, right?

I guess what I am saying is while it may be giving that horse its best chance, it is at the same time giving other horses a better chance.

[cj]

Fine him? For what? Why would a jock or a trainer tell the judges they are going to carry the whip but not use it if they knew that changing their mind midstream would carry a fine? You just keep the info private and tell the jock dont use the whip....this way, he could change his mind and nobody would be the wiser.

When a horse is battling for the win and never goes to the stick, they should have to answer for it if it wasn't disclosed beforehand.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If I have two horses that are rated equal in ability, and I know one will get whipped and one won't, it absolutely will be a factor. If whips weren't an advantage, nobody would use them, right?

I guess what I am saying is while it may be giving that horse its best chance, it is at the same time giving other horses a better chance.

You know each horse is an individual; some do not respond well to the whip.

[Stillriledup]

...says the guy who is always looking for better disclosure

I'm just saying what would happen if CJ's new rule about fining jocks were to be enacted. This has nothing to do with me wanting more or less disclosure in the game, its a completely different discussion.

[cj]

You know each horse is an individual; some do not respond well to the whip.

I know that, but I also know it is a disadvantage against other horses not to use one. A horse might not like the whip, but if the others respond well to it, that is a factor. That was my point. Two equal horse, one responds to the whip, one can't have it used, the former is winning every time if they are truly equal.

[Relwob Owner]

If I have two horses that are rated equal in ability, and I know one will get whipped and one won't, it absolutely will be a factor. If whips weren't an advantage, nobody would use them, right?

I guess what I am saying is while it may be giving that horse its best chance, it is at the same time giving other horses a better chance.


Right, but they arent always an advantage, as was shown by MMM in the classic, where he apparently wasnt whipped. If a trainer chooses not to have the horse whipped, I am fine not knowing in most cases because I think in the large majority of the cases, the trainer is doing it in order to get the best performance possible out of the horse by doing so. That being said, in order to provide total transparency, I cant imagine it would hurt or would be difficult logistically to have a trainer disclose it.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm just saying what would happen if CJ's new rule about fining jocks were to be enacted. This has nothing to do with me wanting more or less disclosure in the game, its a completely different discussion.

His rule (whether I agree with it or not) is easily enforced. Please stop trying to be a contrarian on every opinion stated.

[cj]

I'm just saying what would happen if CJ's new rule about fining jocks were to be enacted. This has nothing to do with me wanting more or less disclosure in the game, its a completely different discussion.

I'm not worried about protecting jockeys from doing something they shouldn't. That is up to the rider, not me. Nobody cries for jockeys when they stop riding at the "usual" finish line and forget they are using an alternate one. They get suspended and fined. This isn't any different.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I know that, but I also know it is a disadvantage against other horses not to use one. A horse might not like the whip, but if the others respond well to it, that is a factor. That was my point. Two equal horse, one responds to the whip, one can't have it used, the former is winning every time if they are truly equal.

I'm with you now. I thought you were making a blanket statement that ALL horses will run faster under the whip.

[cj]

...I cant imagine it would hurt or would be difficult logistically to have a trainer disclose it.

This is really the gist of my argument. What is the harm in disclosing it? To a new person to the game, after watching all the races earlier in the day, Stevens looks bad on Havana. I know why and you know why, but it could turn some people off because they didn't know.

That, and as I said, I really do think it is a handicapping factor, albeit a small one. But in Havana's case, a horse almost guaranteed to have a wide trip and be tiring late, it was even a bigger factor.

I just don't see any negatives to telling people a horse won't be whipped.

[Relwob Owner]

This is really the gist of my argument. What is the harm in disclosing it? To a new person to the game, after watching all the races earlier in the day, Stevens looks bad on Havana. I know why and you know why, but it could turn some people off because they didn't know.

That, and as I said, I really do think it is a handicapping factor, albeit a small one. But in Havana's case, a horse almost guaranteed to have a wide trip and be tiring late, it was even a bigger factor.

I just don't see any negatives to telling people a horse won't be whipped.


Agreed

[Bettowin]

Was he not whipped in any of his previous races or was this the first one?

[Robert Fischer]

Was he not whipped in any of his previous races or was this the first one?

The whip was used in the previous races.

[Stillriledup]

His rule (whether I agree with it or not) is easily enforced. Please stop trying to be a contrarian on every opinion stated.

His rule can only be enforced if the jock and or trainer tell the judges before hand they arent planning on whipping. My point was if a fine was the punishment FOR whipping, why would a jock put himself in a position to be fined, when he could just as easily not say a word?

[Saratoga_Mike]

The whip was used in the previous races.

I may have the timing wrong, but he started swishing his tail under the whip at BEL. He seemed to stop when he wasn't being hit, not sure. He could have been swishing just b/c he was tired of course, but I thought it was correlated with the whip. I assume TP thought the same as he certainly wanted to win a BC race.

[Stillriledup]

Was he not whipped in any of his previous races or was this the first one?

He got hit a bunch of times on Oct 5th at Belmont, and then with 70 yards left, the guy just hand rode him and he responded well in those dying yards to hold off the sensational closer. He flicked his tail also when he was hit on Oct 5th.

[Saratoga_Mike]

His rule can only be enforced if the jock and or trainer tell the judges before hand they arent planning on whipping. My point was if a fine was the punishment FOR whipping, why would a jock put himself in a position to be fined, when he could just as easily not say a word?

The trainer would tell the stewards before the race. Period. CJ isn't suggesting the jock try to ride with no hands here - let's not complicate a very simple matter.

[Stillriledup]

This is really the gist of my argument. What is the harm in disclosing it? To a new person to the game, after watching all the races earlier in the day, Stevens looks bad on Havana. I know why and you know why, but it could turn some people off because they didn't know.

That, and as I said, I really do think it is a handicapping factor, albeit a small one. But in Havana's case, a horse almost guaranteed to have a wide trip and be tiring late, it was even a bigger factor.

I just don't see any negatives to telling people a horse won't be whipped.

They would be more apt to tell the public they arent whipping if they won't be fined for changing their mind during the race. If you're going to fine them for whipping, i can't imagine why they would say a word beforehand.

[Stillriledup]

The trainer would tell the stewards before the race. Period. CJ isn't suggesting the jock try to ride with no hands here - let's not complicate a very simple matter.

Why would the trainer tell the stewards before the race? So his jock can absorb a fine for changing his mind with 70 yards to go?

[cj]

They would be more apt to tell the public they arent whipping if they won't be fined for changing their mind during the race. If you're going to fine them for whipping, i can't imagine why they would say a word beforehand.

Like I said, you lose a close race and don't go to the whip, you have some explaining to do.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Why would the trainer tell the stewards before the race? So his jock can absorb a fine for changing his mind with 70 yards to go?

Don't be intentionally obtuse. If the jockey doesn't use the whip, he could easily be called in by the stewards and questioned. But if the trainer states before the race that "the jock won't use the whip," the stewards will have nothing to question related to the lack of whip use.

I'll let CJ argue with you. I'm done. You're once again trying to play contrarian. If CJ had suggested "not disclosing with a potential fine," you would have taken the other side. Have a good evening SRU.

[cj]

Don't be intentionally obtuse. If the jockey doesn't use the whip, he could easily be called in by the stewards and questioned. But if the trainer states before the race that "the jock won't use the whip," the stewards will have nothing to question related to the lack of whip use.

I'll let CJ argue with you. I'm done. You're once again trying to play contrarian. If CJ had suggested "not disclosing with a potential fine," you would have taken the other side. Have a good evening SRU.

Agreed, he is done in this thread.

[Robert Fischer]

I may have the timing wrong, but he started swishing his tail under the whip at BEL. He seemed to stop when he wasn't being hit, not sure. He could have been swishing just b/c he was tired of course, but I thought it was correlated with the whip. I assume TP thought the same as he certainly wanted to win a BC race.

Yes. He wasn't happy to begin with, in the stretch of the Champagne(and to some degree on debut), and he didn't like the whip either.

[Grits]

Not to go off seemingly crazy, and SRU may have a melt down, but throw a bigger wrench in it. Heck, there's lower fruit. Go back and look up who owns Havana. Why be surprised by anything they come up with? (George Washington comes to mind.. RIP) What's 2 million to these guys? Remember where they made their money; we're talking the most successful bookie ever.

You guys often touting how games can be thrown, any sport, etc. Take your best shot. :lol:

Tabor gained a reputation as a shrewd, daring and highly successful gambler, whose actions could dramatically affect the odds being offered on a horse. Speculation in the press linked him to bets of tensand even hundreds of thousands of pounds. His later horseracing associate, Derrick Smith, told The Racing Post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Racing_Post) that when he was working with Ladbrokes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladbrokes) in the 1980s they had to stop taking Tabor's bets.

[LottaKash]

I may be one of the uninformed, but exactly, what are the rules concerning the whip and various other methods of urging a horse to go faster or maintain his pace in the lane....?

Is it a written rule that a horse must be whipped ?...

[nijinski]

Grits I heard him as well say he wouldn't whip him and he well knows best .

The younger ones can even react worse . I do agree though that disclosure
would be nice . There's plenty of changes we are not aware of ..

Would be nice to know if a horse flipped his palate in a prior race . Also
special shoes for prior problems . I doubt we'll ever get all the data we
need , too often we're on our own to investigate .

[nijinski]

I may be one of the uninformed, but exactly, what are the rules concerning the whip and various other methods of urging a horse to go faster or maintain his pace in the lane....?

Is it a written rule that a horse must be whipped ?...

I think that would bury racing .

The jock might have to face stewards for not trying but if instructed not to
whip , another story .

[PaceAdvantage]

They announce when a rider won't carry a whip, don't really see this as much different. If a rider is carrying one, he shouldn't be instructed not to use it.I agree with this 100%

[Bettowin]

Or if the intent is not to whip they shouldn't be allowed to carry one. So if a rider has a whip onboard and doesn't use it make it an offense subject to fine.

[cj]

Or if the intent is not to whip they shouldn't be allowed to carry one. So if a rider has a whip onboard and doesn't use it make it an offense subject to fine.

That is a bit much, because all horses don't need to be whipped in every race.

[nijinski]

Or if the intent is not to whip they shouldn't be allowed to carry one. So if a rider has a whip onboard and doesn't use it make it an offense subject to fine.
In defense of carrying . Should the jock and horse be in a dangerous
situation they might want the security .

[teegee]

I am fairly certain that Pletcher told whoever interviewed him in the paddock on the tv feed that he instructed Stevens not to use the whip on Havana, so it wasn't totally withheld although I do agree that some kind of official announcement makes sense.

I just wonder why Stevens even carried a whip if they didn't want him to use it?

[Irish Boy]

I am fairly certain that Pletcher told whoever interviewed him in the paddock on the tv feed that he instructed Stevens not to use the whip on Havana, so it wasn't totally withheld although I do agree that some kind of official announcement makes sense.

I just wonder why Stevens even carried a whip if they didn't want him to use it?
I can vouch for this. Pletcher did say before the race that Stevens was told not to whip, though obviously it wasn't an official announcement.

[Grits]

In defense of carrying .

NJ, this opens like the lead for a concealed carry permit!! :lol:

TeeGee and IrishB, on p2 of the thread, there's Steven's quote regarding what you both are saying--found in the Washington Post.

And SRU, I'm surprised, I provided you with the best conspiracy theory on the planet, and you didn't roll with it. I'm hurt. :lol:

[nijinski]

NJ, this opens like the lead for a concealed carry permit!! :lol:

TeeGee and IrishB, on p2 of the thread, there's Steven's quote regarding what you both are saying--found in the Washington Post.

And SRU, I'm surprised, I provided you with the best conspiracy theory on the planet, and you didn't roll with it. I'm hurt. :lol:

You are as always very sharp Grits !
Looking back , I think my whole post was misleading .

[Exotic1]

I may have the timing wrong, but he started swishing his tail under the whip at BEL. He seemed to stop when he wasn't being hit, not sure. He could have been swishing just b/c he was tired of course, but I thought it was correlated with the whip. I assume TP thought the same as he certainly wanted to win a BC race.

SM, I think you have the timing correct. The first time (maybe second) the jock went to the whip in the Champagne, Havana ducked in noticeably - got pretty close to the rail. This was about the 1/8th pole. His tail went into whirlybird motion and did this for the next 2 or 3 times that JV hit him. JV picked up on this hand rode from maybe the 1/16th pole.

At the BC, Gary was asked on what he knew about the horse since it was a late pickup. He said he had just viewed the tape of the Champagne with TP and they weren't going to use the whip. I'm pretty sure my recollection is right on the timing of the quick question and answer from the TV person. Don't know the source of the TV feed - I was watching it from my ADW. As far as why he would carry the whip if, 1) as someone already mentioned, for precaution in case something got out of hand and he had to call an audible
2) maybe the horse is that smart and he "knew" what the whip meant.

All this doesn't address CJ's point of course, which is, if the game plan was drawn early on to not use a whip then why not be transparent as possible and put out a notice that we don't intend to use it, barring unforeseen circumstances?

[letswastemoney]

some horses just don't like to be whipped (ex. Rags to Riches). But, I would have liked to know this information before the race too.

[CincyHorseplayer]

We've seen horses just get shown the whip or brushed with it but not smacked in the tail.In that case they carry the whip but can be instructed to not use it.

When it comes to use of in general I see jockeys at Parx,well other places too with clear leads banging away.As a trainer I'd be pissed.

[JustRalph]

The whip was used in the previous races.


Now that complicates matters even more. Maybe I want to know that the whip was used in prior races, but not this time. It adds a whole new dynamic. I may come to a conclusion that this is a positive change. It may induce me to go watch a replay or more. But if I don't now ?

It makes the matter and CJ's point even more salient.

I am assuming those in this thread saw the previous races or watched replays. If I was a weekend player who is taking a Friday off work to play the Cup over the weekend and open the Pp's on Thursday night, I am at a disadvantage not knowing this stuff. Then on my drive to work on Monday, I hear this on the Steve Byk show. Now I'm not very happy at all.

This board is full of players who follow the sport several days a week and this is news to many of them. I'm sure. This is a problem.

I would reiterate CJ's original post........

[iceknight]

I am fairly certain that Pletcher told whoever interviewed him in the paddock on the tv feed that he instructed Stevens not to use the whip on Havana, so it wasn't totally withheld although I do agree that some kind of official announcement makes sense.

I just wonder why Stevens even carried a whip if they didn't want him to use it?I am late to this thread, but the first thought that went through my mind was "fixing".
Other uses of the whip:
1. you can whip your neighboring jockey/horse (wasnt somebody accused of doing this in a triple crown race in the 80's? on the filly?)
2. you can help a fellow jockey get back their reins - edgar prado did it. youtube. prado helping jockey.
3. whip however light it is, is part of standard equipment, so to not carry it gives a "slim weight advantage" and slight advantage with dexterity for jockey over other jockeys. Maybe they can carry a buzzer more easily?
4. Like Grits mentioned, fixing the outcome/throwing the race?

[letswastemoney]

It was used in previous races because Velazquez knew how to use it on him, Stevens was new to riding Havana and they didn't want to risk something would go wrong.

[FocusWiz]

I was not really paying that much attention, but there was an interview before the race with Pletcher saying he didn't have much time for instructions, but had to mention that Havana does not like the whip.

Not saying that this was "disclosure" nor that disclosure is needed, but I am certain that this was stated before the race, not just after the fact to rationalize how the horse was ridden.

[maclr11]

I think you'd get into a situation where a rider would show the whip and tap him twice to razz him up and put the stick away because the horse is running as best he can
You need the stick at the 1/8th pole but in the last hundred yards the pincays of the world can pick up a horse with a hand ride and it would look bad if you were looking for them to carve the horse all the way to the wire, but the horse is running his peak and the jockey is doing the most he can to help him.

There's too many grey situations with whip rules
I have no problem with the Havana thing, I'm sure Stevens showed him the stick at some point, and riders need it for bad situations, a bolt or encouragement to tap him on the neck .

If you haven't fined guys for whipping a horse between the eyes then no one can be fined for under use of the whip.

[Tom]

Pletcher has some explaining to do. If the rider is instructed to not use the whip, then why is he carrying one?

For show, so they don't hurt the odds on the other horse they are are betting on? :rolleyes:

[Valuist]

To help control the horse pre-race and entering the gate - if needed.

On a few rare occasions, I have seen a rider lightly brush a horse with the whip to get them into the gate. But never in any other pre race setting.

[tophatmert]

what if Havana started to bear out into the grandstand? Would Stevens been able to use it if they had declared he was only carrying for show . As far as Laughing not going for the lead in the FM Turf, Should Green Bay Have told the bettors that they would be attempting an onside kick in last night's game? Maybe we can get those coveted new fans by promising more whipping.Santa Anita - now with 50% more whipping and bitching.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I had a horse that I didn't want the rider to use the whip on. For just this reason, I always just entered "no whip." I know the riders absolutely hate to come out of the paddock without the stick, missing their security blanket, and on the one hand, I don't blame them. But, you can't count on them to NOT use it if you let them carry it and as this thread illustrates, I didn't want my rider to have to listen to skeptics bemoan why he never hit the horse in the lane if he was in contention.

It is sort of a tough position, but I'm with the others (obviously) that if you are going to give specific instructions to NOT use the whip it all - then you should be obligated to enter with "no whip". If your rider doesn't like it, find another. If you are Pletcher, that shouldn't be too tough.

[Saratoga_Mike]

On a few rare occasions, I have seen a rider lightly brush a horse with the whip to get them into the gate. But never in any other pre race setting.

I owned a horse a few years ago who would freeze up pre-race. Without the whip, she never would have moved. Heck, even with the whip, it was hard to get her to move at times. But I concede that's probably very rare.

[devilsbag]

Usually it takes three drinks or so, but then I don't mind being shown the whip...or Reddi Wip for that matter.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Usually it takes three drinks or so, but then I don't mind being shown the whip...or Reddi Wip for that matter.

You're a sick individual and need help but funny!:lol:

[Tall One]

To help control the horse pre-race and entering the gate - if needed.



Majority of the time, but, not always the case. 1991 Ashland Stakes winner Do it With Style was so scared of the whip, Shane Sellers didn't even have one with him in the Keeneland paddock.

[sammy the sage]

Haven't figured out why this is such a big deal....it happens EVERY day at EVERY track at least once....j/geez...

as a previous poster stated...this about 23rd on list of importance...that's NOT DISCLOSED to the bettor...

I would say weight of the animal would be #1...hell they list it dogs for crying out loud...

And how many stakes runners coming of lengthy lay-off DON'T GIVE 100% for THE bettor...in THAT allowance race BEFORE the NEXT stakes race...an awful damn lot...

so this outrage now is just ridiculous...heck I even pointed ALL this out years ago at certain track about Jocks not finishing THE race and GOT crucified here...it IS what IS...

thar ya go P.A...another free shot... :lol:

ps....this whole thread sounds like sour grapes...just like me.... ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

heck I even pointed ALL this out years ago at certain track about Jocks not finishing THE race and GOT crucified here...No you did not. Shut up already....jeez... :lol: