Belmont Race 6 today

[tzipi]

:4: was the heavy favorite in the win and place pools and just as they were getting in the gate his place money went from $40,000 to $16,000 and the win money disappeared too. I think over $20,000 of it. The :3: who was good value(maybe 6-1) then dropped to 5-2 and beat the once 1-9 favorite. Asked the guys at the desk and they said they know about it and there's an investigation. It was a off track bet they said. Never seen this before at Belmont. Anyone else see this?

[TheEdge07]

:4: was the heavy favorite in the win and place pools and just as they were getting in the gate his place money went from $40,000 to $16,000 and the win money disappeared too. I think over $20,000 of it. The :3: who was good value(maybe 6-1) then dropped to 5-2 and beat the once 1-9 favorite. Asked the guys at the desk and they said they know about it and there's an investigation. It was a off track bet they said. Never seen this before at Belmont. Anyone else see this?


I saw and bet the.2.he went up 9/1

[tzipi]

I saw and bet the.2.he went up 9/1

The 2 then dropped to 5-1 with the money change. Crazy.

[lamboguy]

this is why conditional wagering is so great.

[Stillriledup]

Pool manipulation.

At Belmont.

Guess if anyone cares?

Im going to say no, it will be business as usual.

[andtheyreoff]

Pool manipulation.

At Belmont.

Guess if anyone cares?

Im going to say no, it will be business as usual.

Did you read the OP?


Asked the guys at the desk and they said they know about it and there's an investigation. It was a off track bet they said.

It appears as if they are investigating it.

Now, while any result short of executing the offender will not satisfy you, at least they are paying attention to it.

[Stillriledup]

Did you read the OP?



It appears as if they are investigating it.

Now, while any result short of executing the offender will not satisfy you, at least they are paying attention to it.

Places "investigate" these things all the time and you know what always happens? They "conclude" that the customer made an honest mistake.

If they actually do something about this, i'll be shocked. Not holding my breath however.

[SharpCat]

What if the person who made the bet did not like the body language of the horse going to the gate. Should he not be allowed to cancel his ticket?

[tzipi]

What if the person who made the bet did not like the body language of the horse going to the gate. Should he not be allowed to cancel his ticket?

They said no. At that point going into the gate it's way to late and that's considered "pool manipulation".

EDIT: I mean if it's when they first warm up at 6 min, etc ok maybe but going into the gate? No way, and I agree with them. It's protecting the bettors.

[Some_One]

The bet was placed at 3 MTP, could have been a mistake and then a cancel

Pgm # M/L 20 17 15 12 10 7 5 4 3 2 1 0 Final
1 10 5/2 3 3 7/2 7/2 3 3 3 6 6 5 2 2
2 20 9/2 5 5 5 7/2 9/2 4 4 9 9 9 9/2 5
3 12 5/2 5/2 5/2 5/2 5/2 2 5/2 5/2 6 6 5 5/2 5/2
4 2 4/5 4/5 4/5 4/5 1 1 1 1 1/9 1/5 1/5 6/5 1
5 3/5 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Win Pool: $6,479 $7,537 $8,183 $9,899 $12,777 $17,955 $21,175 $24,392 $57,790 $61,801 $64,620 $59,686 $85,520

[cj's dad]

This is why I have stopped betting serious $$ on horse racing, we cannot win in the long run.

[Stillriledup]

The bet was placed at 3 MTP, could have been a mistake and then a cancel

Pgm # M/L 20 17 15 12 10 7 5 4 3 2 1 0 Final
1 10 5/2 3 3 7/2 7/2 3 3 3 6 6 5 2 2
2 20 9/2 5 5 5 7/2 9/2 4 4 9 9 9 9/2 5
3 12 5/2 5/2 5/2 5/2 5/2 2 5/2 5/2 6 6 5 5/2 5/2
4 2 4/5 4/5 4/5 4/5 1 1 1 1 1/9 1/5 1/5 6/5 1
5 3/5 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Win Pool: $6,479 $7,537 $8,183 $9,899 $12,777 $17,955 $21,175 $24,392 $57,790 $61,801 $64,620 $59,686 $85,520

Zero chance its a mistake and here's why. Because the money didnt get "rebet" on a different runner. When people make mistakes, the mistake is in the betting number, not the amount. You don't mistakenly bet 15k win and place when you really meant to bet 15 DOLLARS to win and place because you have to hand the teller 30k cash. If the money showed up on another runner, than i would say it was a mistaken number...but really, how often is a teller going to punch a wrong number with 30k on the line?

[Some_One]

First of all you assume way too much competence in people, when you assume everyone is a dumb idiot until proven otherwise, you realize these type of mistakes are possible. Second, who says this bet was made at a teller? Is it normal for huge ontrack crowds across America midweek?

[Stillriledup]

First of all you assume way too much competence in people, when you assume everyone is a dumb idiot until proven otherwise, you realize these type of mistakes are possible. Second, who says this bet was made at a teller? Is it normal for huge ontrack crowds across America midweek?

It was probably not made at a teller window, it was probably cancelled by a robot or something like that. If you want to think that all these "errors" Are just mistakes, people who are making 20k "mistakes" and then magically, with 1 minute to post, these "incompetent" people become competent again. Funny how it works out that bets like this always seem to just get cancelled at the last second by people who are largely incompetent.

We had this huge bettor strike at Santa Anita recently betting a large amount on a "no shot" horse and then the money came out, there was a large bet at Mountaineer the other day, same thing, the money came out, and we had today, same thing, money came out at the last second. All very large and pool manipulating amounts.

What are the odds that THREE seperate HUGE bets at Mountaineer, Santa Anita and Belmont were all "mistakes"?

[tzipi]

The bet was placed at 3 MTP, could have been a mistake and then a cancel

Pgm # M/L 20 17 15 12 10 7 5 4 3 2 1 0 Final
1 10 5/2 3 3 7/2 7/2 3 3 3 6 6 5 2 2
2 20 9/2 5 5 5 7/2 9/2 4 4 9 9 9 9/2 5
3 12 5/2 5/2 5/2 5/2 5/2 2 5/2 5/2 6 6 5 5/2 5/2
4 2 4/5 4/5 4/5 4/5 1 1 1 1 1/9 1/5 1/5 6/5 1
5 3/5 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Win Pool: $6,479 $7,537 $8,183 $9,899 $12,777 $17,955 $21,175 $24,392 $57,790 $61,801 $64,620 $59,686 $85,520

Do you have the win/place money read out on the 4?

[Robert Fischer]

They said no. At that point going into the gate it's way to late and that's considered "pool manipulation".

EDIT: I mean if it's when they first warm up at 6 min, etc ok maybe but going into the gate? No way, and I agree with them. It's protecting the bettors.

Who said no to this? The Belmont Racing Office?

I have to disagree.
If I have $20K on a horse, and he looks bad behind the gate, and/or they have to whip the horse a bunch to get him in the gate, no way am I going to eat that loss.

[Robert Fischer]

Zero chance its a mistake and here's why. Because the money didnt get "rebet" on a different runner. When people make mistakes, the mistake is in the betting number, not the amount. You don't mistakenly bet 15k win and place when you really meant to bet 15 DOLLARS to win and place because you have to hand the teller 30k cash. If the money showed up on another runner, than i would say it was a mistaken number...but really, how often is a teller going to punch a wrong number with 30k on the line?

I thought it was not a teller bet? I thought it was off track ??

And if this happened to be a mistake that was noticed as the horses were "entering the gate", what makes you sure that the money would have been quickly(and successfully) rebet within that time-frame ?

I really am ignorant here, with limited information based on what is revealed in this thread. I can't really make any definitive statements whatsoever.

All I am questioning, is some of the logic that doesn't seem to make sense to me.

[Robert Fischer]

If they actually do something about this, i'll be shocked. Not holding my breath however.

I don't have a ton of confidence either.

I wonder if these possible pool-manipulation instances are even handled by people who have insight into how pool manipulation works, how to properly investigate it, and how to handle it?

[Stillriledup]

I thought it was not a teller bet? I thought it was off track ??

And if this happened to be a mistake that was noticed as the horses were "entering the gate", what makes you sure that the money would have been quickly(and successfully) rebet within that time-frame ?

I really am ignorant here, with limited information based on what is revealed in this thread. I can't really make any definitive statements whatsoever.

All I am questioning, is some of the logic that doesn't seem to make sense to me.

If we look at the 3 examples of this in recent times, we have a little bit of a difference in the 3 scenarios. The Santa Anita situation was a 20k win bet on a horse with "no chance" very early in the betting. The horse got refunded with plenty of time remaining in the cycle, there was at least 10 mins to post when that money came out. The mountaineer situation was another big (big for Mtn standards) bet on a horse that wasnt a contender at all, and the money came out and the horse went off at 10-1 or something like that. The mountain refund came with about 5 mins to post or thereabouts.

The Belmont situation was a big win and place bet on a horse who was "lone speed" in a 4 horse field, there was no show wagering. I think this bet was a bit tougher because the money came out literally as the horses were loading the gate, the fave (who finished 2nd in a field of 4) had about 32 to 35k on her to place, and when the refund happened, she went down to 8k to place and then i think ended up with about 12k? Not sure the exact numbers, but this was one that came out very very late.

Maybe the first 2 examples were the same person/robot betting and "testing" to see how long it would take to cancel....interestingly enough, the one that was cancelled very late, the Belmont one, was on a major contender who figured to win...so, if the bet didnt get cancelled in time, the person still had a good shot to win....with the SA bet and the MTN bet, if those didnt get cancelled, they were losers and the guy would have essentially threw away money.

Obviously we dont know if its the same person betting at all 3 places. The "mad bomber" at Mtn usually only bets 5k, but now these 3 scenarios all had HUGE bets, 15k and up.....maybe it was the same person, im sure if Mtn, SA and Belmont put their heads together, they could at least figure out if there is a common theme.

[lamboguy]

This is why I have stopped betting serious $$ on horse racing, we cannot win in the long run.the game certainly has turned into something different than it was years ago.

looking at the odds board is a complete waste of time. you are just better off placing your wager and taking your chances with the price. i have limited my wagers to horses that aren't supposed to get the lead. i find that often times my odds go up after the gate opens. i stay away from all the blind pools because i know i can't trust them either. since changing my strategy a few years, i am doing better than i ever have.

at the Red Mile they had about 20 gate punchers, they are down to 6 now. the other 14 went broke because all they were doing was betting against themselves.

in the thoroughbred game i know there are gate punchers, i just don't know where they are doing the punching from. i suspect there are not as many punching as the Red Mile had. eventually racing will get rid of all of them too.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

He should not be allowed to cancel.

The privilege of canceling bets has been abused to the point where it should be taken away.

If you leave the teller window with the ticket it is yours to keep. If you punch it in on the computer you now own it.

I'm fairly sure this won't happen, but this used to be the policy and I'm okay going back in time at this point.

[tzipi]

Who said no to this? The Belmont Racing Office?

I have to disagree.
If I have $20K on a horse, and he looks bad behind the gate, and/or they have to whip the horse a bunch to get him in the gate, no way am I going to eat that loss.

They called the office I guess who deals with the money. They did not give a name. But I they said and I agree. You can not lead a whole public that a horse is 1-9 and have people betting money different or to place on other horses, just in case he runs out and then bam right before the race goes off, all the odds/payouts are changed. I wouldn't have bet like a I did if I saw the true odds.

They said they have told people numerous times who wanted to change they bet at the last minute, no. It's their policy to not do that and mess with the odds.

[cj]

He should not be allowed to cancel.

The privilege of canceling bets has been abused to the point where it should be taken away.

If you leave the teller window with the ticket it is yours to keep. If you punch it in on the computer you now own it.

I'm fairly sure this won't happen, but this used to be the policy and I'm okay going back in time at this point.

100% agree. Once a bet is placed, it is placed. If you think you might want to cancel, wait and bet later. It isn't really rocket science. If you bet early, you know the risks.

[tzipi]

100% agree. Once a bet is placed, it is placed. If you think you might want to cancel, wait and bet later. It isn't really rocket science. If you bet early, you know the risks.

I agree, Not sure why someone would place a huge bet before the horse works out to the gate? Just wait till after the horse works out and gets to the gate.

[Stillriledup]

I agree, Not sure why someone would place a huge bet before the horse works out to the gate? Just wait till after the horse works out and gets to the gate.

I think that there are limits on cancelling. If someone wants to cancel a tri or super or pick 6, they can, its blind pool and nobody sees the money anyway. Also, newbie bettors and 2 WPS bettors need to also be able to cancel. 5k and 20k bets? Not so much. You bet that amount, no cancelling.

[tzipi]

I think that there are limits on cancelling. If someone wants to cancel a tri or super or pick 6, they can, its blind pool and nobody sees the money anyway. Also, newbie bettors and 2 WPS bettors need to also be able to cancel. 5k and 20k bets? Not so much. You bet that amount, no cancelling.

Yeah blind pools I can see cancelling.

[Jeff P]

What if the person who made the bet did not like the body language of the horse going to the gate. Should he not be allowed to cancel his ticket?

I think most players are seeing an increased frequency of large cancels this year vs. years past.

I think most players don't like it because it reeks of pool manipulation.

That said, you raised a valid point by mentioning the body language aspect.

I'm pretty good at evaluating body language myself. (And will cancel for exactly that reason when I think cancelling is the correct decision to make.)

The question becomes, how do we allow cancels while at the same time protecting against pool manipulation?

What if a 5% cancellation fee were implemented for all cancels no matter what the reason once the ticket has been paid for and the money has gone into the pool? (With 100% of the 5% cancel fee put directly into the specific pool in which the cancel took place?)

Speaking strictly for myself: If I have a wager riding on a horse that looks fit in the post parade - but becomes spooked, panicked, or injured approaching the gate - I'm going to cancel every single time.

Under those circumstances I'd happily pay a 5% cancellation fee. (Getting back 95 cents on the dollar is better than getting back 0 cents on the dollar.)

Now the guy who bets with full intention of cancelling later to manipulate the pools?

I'm thinking he's not going to like this idea all that much.

Thoughts?


-jp

.

[tzipi]

You raised a valid point by mentioning the body language aspect.

I'm pretty good at evaluating body language myself. (And will cancel for exactly that reason when I think cancelling is the correct decision to make.

But why not wait to make your bet till after their workout or appearance in the paddock or when first on the track? Why place it before you see the horse? I mean I can see years and years ago with no computer betting and packed tracks. But today you can just click a bet which the big timers mostly do or just walk up to a minimum bet window and place it. It's sort of like purchasing a car then test driving it.

Edit: Yes I can see totally your point of it getting spooked in the paddock, first on track etc, but that's why I usually wait till the late gate load to bet if its a big bet. I mean it's a good point that does happen occassionaly at the gate.

[cj]

Thoughts?


-jp

.

Yes, my thought is if you have time to cancel later, you have time to bet later. What is the hurry?

[Show Me the Wire]

Yes, my thought is if you have time to cancel later, you have time to bet later. What is the hurry?

If the crew tong's my selection during the load, I want the ability to cancel.

[Ocala Mike]

I wonder if these possible pool-manipulation instances are even handled by people who have insight into how pool manipulation works, how to properly investigate it, and how to handle it?



Today, that would be the NY State Racing & Wagering Board, the same people who failed to detect the incorrect exotic % takeout at NYRA a few years ago. The examiners who used to be in place at the track for the Tax Department many years ago (I was one of them) were capable of detecting irregularities like this but, alas, as a cost-cutting measure, they are no more.

[SharpCat]

If the crew tong's my selection during the load, I want the ability to cancel.


I agree. There are several things that can happen at the gate that would cause me to cancel my bet. I would hate to be at the SAM making a big bet and miss something at the gate.

[tzipi]

Well the :4: worked out fine and loaded fine yesterday. Still don't know what happened. Ehh who knows.

[Stillriledup]

If the crew tong's my selection during the load, I want the ability to cancel.

There's a difference between cancelling a bet because of a last second change of heart, and a cancel on a bet that you never intended to make in the first place.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

neither reason is acceptable.

[Stillriledup]

neither reason is acceptable.

But one is more unacceptable that the other.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Phantombridgejumpe]

One has evil intent, and one doesn't.

Neither should get a refund.

Pool manipulation would be 99% eliminated if you eliminated canceled bets.

I think if you are going to eliminate DQs this is the obvious next step at SRU, 'Where the bettor doesn't have to worry about fraud'.

[Stillriledup]

One has evil intent, and one doesn't.

Neither should get a refund.

Pool manipulation would be 99% eliminated if you eliminated canceled bets.

I think if you are going to eliminate DQs this is the obvious next step at SRU, 'Where the bettor doesn't have to worry about fraud'.

I can't argue. I would be in favor of no cancelling no matter what. It would be an inconvenience for small bettors to not be able to cancel, but if it gets rid of these manipulators, i'm in favor of it.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Hey, back in the day I got a ticket or two I didn't want and stupidly left the window without checking carefully - it sucks - but better than allowing a free-for-all in terms of cancels.

[Stillriledup]

Hey, back in the day I got a ticket or two I didn't want and stupidly left the window without checking carefully - it sucks - but better than allowing a free-for-all in terms of cancels.

Totally.

And, i would be in favor of getting rid of the "7 second cancel" that tellers are afforded. Most people bet with ADWs and SAM machines, tellers are of no use to most bettors and bettors could care less if a teller gets stuck with a ticket that they wrongly punched. This 7 second cancel permits unscrupulous individuals to game the system.

Its time for change.

[rastajenk]

What is the 7-second cancel?

[Stillriledup]

What is the 7-second cancel?

Live tellers have a few seconds after the race starts to cancel tickets. Each state has different amounts of time, but "7 seconds" is usually what they give, at least they did back in the day.

[rastajenk]

That was never my experience as a mutuel teller from 2005-2009 in Ohio. If you can't sell, you can't cancel. When was your mutuel experience?

[cj]

That was never my experience as a mutuel teller from 2005-2009 in Ohio. If you can't sell, you can't cancel. When was your mutuel experience?

"Yes, there is a mechanism built into the system which allows for the possibility of past-posting (or past-cancelling) and it is called the “close cancel delay.” For those of you that don’t know what that means, the close cancel delay is enabled at some racetracks to protect the mutuel teller from someone walking away from a ticket at off time. At most tracks, tellers are responsible for their shortages at the end of the day. It gives the teller a chance to cancel the ticket, so they are not out the money."

http://www.startingate.com/blog/?p=5