My Donna Jean and the "50% takeout" at Belmont.

[Stillriledup]

Broken down horse with a no name trainer and a fresh "van off" comment shows up with a 4 for 93 rider at 15-1 ML as the "first throwout" in the race, but a funny thing happens on the way from point A to point B. The horse gets bet like the public knows the result in advance and MDJ comes roaring home to just miss. She looked to be "laboring" heading to the top of the lane, she's a pace pressing/stopper type, so you figured she was "done" turning for home, but no, she comes blasting home to just miss the win.

Which gets me to think that "they" are betting large money into these pools with information that is not known to the general public. If you are a paper and pen handicapper and don't have "connections" there was no way you were going to be able to know that My Donna Jean was "ok" and the van off was nothing more than a false flag.

Was My Donna Jean 3-1 based on people who only had the PPs and video analysis to go on? Im going to say no, it was money from someone who knew she was going to be "good" today.

[ManU918]

Broken down horse with a no name trainer and a fresh "van off" comment shows up with a 4 for 93 rider at 15-1 ML as the "first throwout" in the race, but a funny thing happens on the way from point A to point B. The horse gets bet like the public knows the result in advance and MDJ comes roaring home to just miss. She looked to be "laboring" heading to the top of the lane, she's a pace pressing/stopper type, so you figured she was "done" turning for home, but no, she comes blasting home to just miss the win.

Which gets me to think that "they" are betting large money into these pools with information that is not known to the general public. If you are a paper and pen handicapper and don't have "connections" there was no way you were going to be able to know that My Donna Jean was "ok" and the van off was nothing more than a false flag.

Was My Donna Jean 3-1 based on people who only had the PPs and video analysis to go on? Im going to say no, it was money from someone who knew she was going to be "good" today.

I don't get the point of this thread...This sort of thing happens everyday. I have been notified of 5 hot horses in my life. Not many at all. I am sure people on this forum have had hundreds. For me all 5 won going away at odds of over 5-1.

The best one was when a friend of mine was at a Villanova graduation. The guy sitting next to him owned a horse that was running at Monmouth that day... I cant for the life of me remember the horses name. Anyways my friend calls the bar where a few of us were and gave us the news. 5 of us go to a off track betting parlor 10 minutes away betting anywhere from 200-1000 on the horse... He won at 8-1 by 6 or 7 lengths... Going off of the PP's he should of been 50-1 and I would of never touched him... The owner probably told anyone that would listen and we still got $18.80 back. That was a good day.

[wiffleball whizz]

Another reason why u can drive golf balls from
The apron of the racetrack into the seats of the grandstand and never worry about hitting anybody.....nobody goes cus if this nonsense

[Pensacola Pete]

Goes on about once a day at every track. Old news.

[cj]

Weren't this horse's dirt races as good or better than the rest of the field on paper? This wasn't exactly a Breeder's Cup race.

[magwell]

Could be she bled and jock got off when he pulled her up after the race and van went and got her, they gave her time to recover dropped her a notch with bug boy to get the 5 pounds gave her 5cc lasix instead of 3 like last time and she ran good....who knew ? those in the know, still got beat with a bunch of mules.... lesson here don't bet mule races I guess.....;)

[magwell]

Now we play a 1 - 8 double to try and get even here in the 6th race.....

[andtheyreoff]

Weren't this horse's dirt races as good or better than the rest of the field on paper? This wasn't exactly a Breeder's Cup race.

Yes, they were. Her last two brisnet figures on dirt were an 84 & 85, while no one else ran more than an 80 in their last three. Not to mention her last two works suggested she was ready to round back into form after her dismal turf outings. I liked her a lot before the race (and was disappointed to only get 3/1), so to me, this result was not illogical at all.

[the little guy]

Another reason why u can drive golf balls from
The apron of the racetrack into the seats of the grandstand and never worry about hitting anybody.....nobody goes cus if this nonsense


Do you actually think about these things before making comments like this?

How come there wasn't a thread about the horse, Claiming Victory in the 7th race last Thursday, that broke on top, went right to the lead, was 8:1, but went to 10:1 midway through the race? She also won.

[Stillriledup]

Weren't this horse's dirt races as good or better than the rest of the field on paper? This wasn't exactly a Breeder's Cup race.

The ML guy agreed she was a "no hoper" and lined her accordingly. What does it matter how good her previous races were if she was vanned off in last, arent "all bets off" at that point? Its not like she was being trained by a supertrainer or ridden by a super jock.

She ran the best possible race she could run and still lost......which means the 15-1 was about right as you were gambling that she had more than 3 legs, many times horses like this dont have 4 legs, so she had 4 legs today and still wasnt fast enough to win.

[cj]

The ML guy agreed she was a "no hoper" and lined her accordingly. What does it matter how good her previous races were if she was vanned off in last, arent "all bets off" at that point? Its not like she was being trained by a supertrainer or ridden by a super jock.

She ran the best possible race she could run and still lost......which means the 15-1 was about right as you were gambling that she had more than 3 legs, many times horses like this dont have 4 legs, so she had 4 legs today and still wasnt fast enough to win.

The morning line guy is far from perfect, even on the NYRA circuit. I see mistakes. It is a tough job. She was picked 2nd by Andy Serling on Talking Horses which probably contributed to some of the betting. I would argue she didn't run the best she could. She has run better in the past in my opinion. I'll be surprised if the figures don't show the same thing when I do them.

[the little guy]

The morning line guy is far from perfect, even on the NYRA circuit. I see mistakes. It is a tough job. She was picked 2nd by Andy Serling on Talking Horses which probably contributed to some of the betting. I would argue she didn't run the best she could. She has run better in the past in my opinion. I'll be surprised if the figures don't show the same thing when I do them.

She didn't get the best of rides. Eric blew the Morning Line. It's racing. We are all wrong ( before races ) fairly often. Eric less than most, if not all, as far as morning lines.

As you have said, she was a very logical horse.

[Robert Fischer]

The morning line guy is far from perfect, even on the NYRA circuit. I see mistakes. It is a tough job. She was picked 2nd by Andy Serling on Talking Horses which probably contributed to some of the betting. I would argue she didn't run the best she could. She has run better in the past in my opinion. I'll be surprised if the figures don't show the same thing when I do them.

Wow, I wasn't aware of this.

Thank you for pointing that out CJ.

If Andy picked her 2nd in talking horses, there were likely some things going for her, and along with the Jacobson:8: horse taking little money, it ended up just being an inaccurate morning line.

Looks like the thread starter jumped the gun here and was wrong, and that others followed suit in this thread.

[Stillriledup]

Wow, I wasn't aware of this.

Thank you for pointing that out CJ.

If Andy picked her 2nd in talking horses, there were likely some things going for her, and along with the Jacobson:8: horse taking little money, it ended up just being an inaccurate morning line.

Looks like the thread starter jumped the gun here and was wrong, and that others followed suit in this thread.

She was the 5th betting choice in the pick 3, so she took a lot more win money than her "natural" odds. The public had her as the 5th betting choice, the 1 horse, who went off at 10-1 was lower in the pick 3 than she was.

As far as Andy picking her 2nd, he picked her at 15-1 ML and at that price, she might have been an ok pick.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Do you actually think about these things before making comments like this?
How come there wasn't a thread about the horse, Claiming Victory in the 7th race last Thursday, that broke on top, went right to the lead, was 8:1, but went to 10:1 midway through the race? She also won.

You must have missed his first 2,600 posts.

[Robert Fischer]

She was the 5th betting choice in the pick 3, so she took a lot more win money than her "natural" odds. The public had her as the 5th betting choice, the 1 horse, who went off at 10-1 was lower in the pick 3 than she was.

As far as Andy picking her 2nd, he picked her at 15-1 ML and at that price, she might have been an ok pick.

It should be obvious that pick 3 will-pays were influenced by the morning line.

The morning line was wrong for the :2: and the :8:.

Part of having integrity is to recognize when you may have jumped the gun. That way people don't dismiss what you have to say on other issues that may be valid.

[Stillriledup]

It should be obvious that pick 3 will-pays were influenced by the morning line.

The morning line was wrong for the :2: and the :8:.

Part of having integrity is to recognize when you may have jumped the gun. That way people don't dismiss what you have to say on other issues that may be valid.

So pick 3 bettors get sucked into the morning line when they make their bets but win bettors dont?

[Stillriledup]

You must have missed his first 2,600 posts.

Don't be jealous Whizz is a hall of famer here and you're not. :D

[Exotic1]

She didn't get the best of rides. Eric blew the Morning Line. It's racing. We are all wrong ( before races ) fairly often. Eric less than most, if not all, as far as morning lines.

As you have said, she was a very logical horse.

Have to agree on the Eric part. Not only is he generally spot on - on how the public will wager but he's also very good at handicapping. He's excellent on who will get early leads, highlights races that lack pace pressure. Those two guys that do the pre-game show, very very good. IMO.

[Stillriledup]

It should be obvious that pick 3 will-pays were influenced by the morning line.

The morning line was wrong for the :2: and the :8:.

Part of having integrity is to recognize when you may have jumped the gun. That way people don't dismiss what you have to say on other issues that may be valid.

I see your point, you're suggesting that this horse was a natural 3-1 shot and because the ML wasnt close to her closing odds, that is a huge factor. I don't disagree that she was closer to a natural 3-1 shot than she was to a natural 15-1 shot. My point was that 3-1 was a terrible "underlay" she wasnt a good bet at 3-1 off paper, she had a very low pct jock, a trainer nobody has heard of and she was coming off a van off comment...right there, you need somewhat of a price to bet on a horse like that imo, 3-1 was an "underlay".

As far as people dismissing my other issues because they don't see eye to eye on this issue, well, that's not something i can control, i can't force people to think a certain way, hopefully they'll be a little smarter than you're giving them credit for. I'm not a HOF nominee for nothin, i must know something! ;)

And, by the way, i nominated YOU as a HOFer and this is the thanks i get? :D

[Saratoga_Mike]

Don't be jealous Whizz is a hall of famer here and you're not. :D

Yes, I believe you're on that list, too, which speaks volumes!

[Stillriledup]

She didn't get the best of rides. Eric blew the Morning Line. It's racing. We are all wrong ( before races ) fairly often. Eric less than most, if not all, as far as morning lines.

As you have said, she was a very logical horse.

He made the ML based on paper, he didnt know she was "fixed up" and that the van off comment was a false flag. I'm sure if he had inside info, he would have made her lower. But, he's making the ML with what he has at the time, it looks really bad retrospectively, but if he had made her 3-1 ML, i know i would have been like "how is this horse 3-1?" Maybe 8-1 or 10-1 would have been more accurate, but you have to factor in the van off, she's a cheap claimer that's 1 for 21 lifetime, hasnt won in years, has a 4 for 93 jock and a trainer who hasnt won a race in 2013, at some point you have to ask for more than 3-1 on a horse like this, her last 2 efforts were bad, i need much more than 3-1 to bet on a horse like this......but, of course, when you see the money pouring in at the end, you re-evaluate her and realize she's 'live' but that's not something the ML maker had at his disposal when he handicapped 2 or 3 nights in advance.

[Stillriledup]

Yes, I believe you're on that list, too, which speaks volumes!

All i know is that i'm mentioned in the same breath as CJ, Tom and other PA greats, its not all that bad, and yes, it speaks volumes that i'm in their esteemed company. ;)

[Saratoga_Mike]

All i know is that i'm mentioned in the same breath as CJ, Tom and other PA greats, its not all that bad, and yes, it speaks volumes that i'm in their esteemed company. ;)

I suspect the HOF thread starter took your name from the "Poster I'd Most Like to Ban" list by mistake.

[Robert Fischer]

And, by the way, i nominated YOU as a HOFer and this is the thanks i get? :D

haha!

that's why I respect you enough to give you some shit.

I couldn't bet anything in the 3rd and I passed. I don't know.

From reading this: the 2 may have been more like a morning line error, who should have been 9-2 and thus became a "wise guy" horse. Because she was 15-1! in the ML...

Maybe a big player scouts out hot-walker and barn tips and went a little overboard. :cool:


maybe , maybe not


The horse was also running up in class a little, on the turf, showing strong early pace in mostly solid paced races, and was moving back to the dirt where she last had success. 2 of her fastest lifetime works since, help convince that the van-off wasn't more severe.

I always try to handicap every race of my pick 3s, but some players will build a ticket around their choice-->then the favs. The public doesn't always cap every 15-1 shot.


Not everything is a conspiracy :D

[Stillriledup]

haha!

that's why I respect you enough to give you some shit.

I couldn't bet anything in the 3rd and I passed. I don't know.

From reading this: the 2 may have been more like a morning line error, who should have been 9-2 and thus became a "wise guy" horse. Because she was 15-1! in the ML...

Maybe a big player scouts out hot-walker and barn tips and went a little overboard. :cool:


maybe , maybe not


The horse was also running up in class a little, on the turf, showing strong early pace in mostly solid paced races, and was moving back to the dirt where she last had success. 2 of her fastest lifetime works since, help convince that the van-off wasn't more severe.

I always try to handicap every race of my pick 3s, but some players will build a ticket around their choice-->then the favs. The public doesn't always cap every 15-1 shot.


Not everything is a conspiracy :D


Thank you for keeping me honest, you're one of my favorite underrated guys here, i appreciate your great posts and passion!

Great call on the wise guy horse theory because of the ML. That ML maker is strong, so when people see 15-1 opening at 5-1, its possible they're like "ITS LIVE" and that's what happened.

Or, its a conspiracy. :D

[Relwob Owner]

All i know is that i'm mentioned in the same breath as CJ, Tom and other PA greats, its not all that bad, and yes, it speaks volumes that i'm in their esteemed company. ;)

Two words:

Zero votes

[appistappis]

overall i find horses that are vanned off are automatic throw outs by the majority of bettors.....this is a big mistake and leads to some good overlays.

[andtheyreoff]

He made the ML based on paper, he didnt know she was "fixed up" and that the van off comment was a false flag. I'm sure if he had inside info, he would have made her lower. But, he's making the ML with what he has at the time, it looks really bad retrospectively, but if he had made her 3-1 ML, i know i would have been like "how is this horse 3-1?" Maybe 8-1 or 10-1 would have been more accurate, but you have to factor in the van off, she's a cheap claimer that's 1 for 21 lifetime, hasnt won in years, has a 4 for 93 jock and a trainer who hasnt won a race in 2013, at some point you have to ask for more than 3-1 on a horse like this, her last 2 efforts were bad, i need much more than 3-1 to bet on a horse like this......but, of course, when you see the money pouring in at the end, you re-evaluate her and realize she's 'live' but that's not something the ML maker had at his disposal when he handicapped 2 or 3 nights in advance.

How much did the "vanned off" matter though?

Let's look at her past performances:
http://www.brisnet.com/php/bw_pdf_viewer.php?track=BEL&race=3&param1=398574&param2=2070&param3=1587

You can see, in her last two starts on dirt, she ran an 85 and an 84 in back to back starts vs. similar company. Only the 5, Start it Up, and the 6, Rosie My Way (the eventual winner), even approach those numbers.

Now, yes, she was vanned off after her last start. However, consider her last two workouts, both of which came after her last start:
October 6: 4F in :49.1, 18/43
October 19: 4F in :48.2, 4/44

Clearly, this horse looked as if she was beginning to get back into shape, and was, without a doubt, one of the top horses in this field.

[the little guy]

Have to agree on the Eric part. Not only is he generally spot on - on how the public will wager but he's also very good at handicapping. He's excellent on who will get early leads, highlights races that lack pace pressure. Those two guys that do the pre-game show, very very good. IMO.


The little guy with glasses is a moron.

[Rise Over Run]

The little guy with glasses is a moron.

And also needs a new stylist. Did you see what he was wearing today?

[the little guy]

And also needs a new stylist. Did you see what he was wearing today?

It was COLD.

Even my Mom made fun of my hat!

[Stillriledup]

Two words:

Zero votes

Yes, i even voted against myself! You did notice that too, right? ;)

It seems to me that votes go directly in line with popularity and or who is perceived as a nice guy. While i think i'm as nice as anyone, i like to rock the boat, post controversial opinions and sometimes i'll post something that nobody agrees with and that makes me look bad when the whole board is coming down on me. But, i'll stay true to that, i won't shy away from telling it like it is.....even if it hurts. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

overall i find horses that are vanned off are automatic throw outs by the majority of bettors.....this is a big mistake and leads to some good overlays.

There was another crud van off horse who got 2nd later in the card. Its amazing how these horses can't finish and the next time they run, they're world beaters.

[wiffleball whizz]

Do you actually think about these things before making comments like this?

How come there wasn't a thread about the horse, Claiming Victory in the 7th race last Thursday, that broke on top, went right to the lead, was 8:1, but went to 10:1 midway through the race? She also won.

Yes I do actually......SRU made a valid point about a horse being vanned off and took all the cheese like he couldn't miss.....a textbook "they" horse

I was at work and had no way of seeing a program to see the lines but if a horse is vanned off and taking play there's only the inside group that can know that

What do u think the little people like me think when a horse gets vanned off and then next start rips a field to shreds......these people like me don't like it

I will say its pretty cool to have the best in the game drill me on a post though....pretty much like tiger woods going on a golf forum blasting somebody saying that tiger winning regular tournements doesn't mean he's back


Must be nice to be the master.....must be nice

[cj]

There was another crud van off horse who got 2nd later in the card. Its amazing how these horses can't finish and the next time they run, they're world beaters.

Horses are vanned off for quite a number of reasons.

[johnhannibalsmith]

There was another crud van off horse who got 2nd later in the card. Its amazing how these horses can't finish and the next time they run, they're world beaters.

Get used to it when we get that Lasix ban in effect to save the horses and bettors.

:D

[Stillriledup]

Horses are vanned off for quite a number of reasons.

And most of them seem to come back good as new next time, even much improved.

I need to hire a van to van me off after a day of betting on this crap, maybe i can come back tomorrow and magically be a winning horseplayer.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
I need to hire a van to van me off after a day of betting on this crap, maybe i can come back tomorrow and magically be a winning horseplayer.

Yeah, but that would deprive us of the comedy that results from the magic of being a losing horseplayer. :D

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, but that would deprive us of the comedy that results from the magic of being a losing horseplayer. :D

:lol:

It is entertaining around here when i can't hit the side of a barn! :D

[Quagmire]

And most of them seem to come back good as new next time, even much improved.

I need to hire a van to van me off after a day of betting on this crap, maybe i can come back tomorrow and magically be a winning horseplayer.

Any magic vans at SRU Downs?

[wiffleball whizz]

How bout if your vanned off you either:

A. Can't race for 90 days

B. barred from wagering

[mountainman]

Horses are vanned off for quite a number of reasons.

Bingo. And sometimes win their very next starts. There are more ominous form traits.

[JustRalph]

Horses are vanned off for quite a number of reasons.

mostly when I bet on them..........

[wiffleball whizz]

You must have missed his first 2,600 posts.


How that's out of line.....as I never have taken cheap shots at anybody on here


If my 2600 posts are that bad next year we can have a little contest on who can pick Saratoga better......we can do flats then harness....you will walk out with "rabbit ears"


They will be calling me Saratoga whizz


Just another poster who gets buried day after day and then come on here preaching ROI and takeout........

He'll we can even go best of 3 and throw in Saratoga national(thats golf) :lol:

[Stillriledup]

How bout if your vanned off you either:

A. Can't race for 90 days

B. barred from wagering

IN harness racing they make you qualify if you dont finish a race. They dont want a PP line that is misleading. Now, harness racing obviously has its own problems of integrity, but at least they get it right in this dept.

[wiffleball whizz]

IN harness racing they make you qualify if you dont finish a race. They dont want a PP line that is misleading. Now, harness racing obviously has its own problems of integrity, but at least they get it right in this dept.


Correct......and by the way congrats on 10,000 posts in case I'm sleeping when it happens :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[mountainman]

How bout if your vanned off you either:

A. Can't race for 90 days

B. barred from wagering

Because too many racing programs need too many horses. And the state vet, in theory, examines each case individually. Not ideal, to be certain, but that's how it works in reality.

[Stillriledup]

Because too many racing programs need too many horses. And the state vet, in theory, examines each case individually. Not ideal, to be certain, but that's how it works in reality.

Would it be too much to ask.....it probably is....but if a horse doesnt finish a race, the reason why they didnt finish and the subsequent treatment to fix what ails the horse is made public? This way, the public won't think that a perfectly fine horse was just pulled up by the jock for no reason. They list blinker changes, gelding changes, what's a little van off note, im sure bettors would appreciate knowing what happened.

If an NFL player gets "vanned off" his condition is public knowledge...so, when that player comes back, the bettors know what happened to him and why he was carted off and can plan their bets accordingly.

[Robert Goren]

How bout if your vanned off you either:

A. Can't race for 90 days

B. barred from wagering How about banned from the circuit for 6 months. That would give a truly sore horse time to heal and stop what looks like chicanery to the average punter.
You can make all the excuses you want, but this kind of stuff that drives customers away. Of course when you have slot money, why do you care. This is the kind thing you expect at Penn National, but not at a top tier track. I guess the racino mentality has effected NYRA quicker than I thought it would.

[Stillriledup]

Correct......and by the way congrats on 10,000 posts in case I'm sleeping when it happens :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Thank you Whizz, i appreciate that! :ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

Because too many racing programs need too many horses. And the state vet, in theory, examines each case individually. Not ideal, to be certain, but that's how it works in reality.The best argument yet for closing more race tracks.

[johnhannibalsmith]

How about banned from the circuit for 6 months. That would give a truly sore horse time to heal and stop what looks like chicanery to the average punter. ...

Or, it would lead to only the worst of the worst injured horses seeing the van. And after all, we do want to protect the horses from the human elements in racing in almost every thread, right?

[wiffleball whizz]

How about banned from the circuit for 6 months. That would give a truly sore horse time to heal and stop what looks like chicanery to the average punter.
You can make all the excuses you want, but this kind of stuff that drives customers away. Of course when you have slot money, why do you care. This is the kind thing you expect at Penn National, but not at a top tier track. I guess the racino mentality has effected NYRA quicker than I thought it would.


Agree mr goren.....the little guy says I should think Before I post on that

Belmont/nyra should know better.........

And 6 months is ability right


There are certain harness tracks that when u scratched from the 7 and 8 post u can't race there for a month......awesome rule

[SaratogaSteve]

You must have missed his first 2,600 posts.

Bravo! :lol:

[mountainman]

Would it be too much to ask.....it probably is....but if a horse doesnt finish a race, the reason why they didnt finish and the subsequent treatment to fix what ails the horse is made public? This way, the public won't think that a perfectly fine horse was just pulled up by the jock for no reason. They list blinker changes, gelding changes, what's a little van off note, im sure bettors would appreciate knowing what happened.

If an NFL player gets "vanned off" his condition is public knowledge...so, when that player comes back, the bettors know what happened to him and why he was carted off and can plan their bets accordingly.

Vet's lists SHOULD be made public. Technically, since the vet is a public employee and the tracks are state-licensed, the info is not confidential. Some tracks post them outside the racing office, but more should be done to get the info out there. The obvious downside-and reason you WON'T see specific infirmities (or even the vet's list in general)-so readily disclosed is blame and liability in the event of catastrophic breakdown. Also, the horsemen would FREAK. They are notoriously proprietary and secretive-sometimes even to their own detriment.

Don't shoot this messenger for not sugar-coating. I'm just being objective.

[Stillriledup]

Vet's lists SHOULD be made public. Technically, since the vet is a public employee and the tracks are state-licensed, the info is not confidential. Some tracks post them outside the racing office, but more should be done to get the info out there. The obvious downside-and reason you WON'T see specific infirmities (or even the vet's list in general)-so readily disclosed is blame and liability in the event of catastrophic breakdown. Also, the horsemen would FREAK. They are notoriously proprietary and secretive-sometimes even to their own detriment.

Don't shoot this messenger for not sugar-coating. I'm just being objective.

Thank you Mark, appreciate the objectivity and insight. Its amazing how tracks permit info to stay secretive, they seem to not realize the more info that gets out, the bigger their betting handles will be....by letting horsemen hide information, its a transparency issue and that hurts handle.

[tanner12oz]

Vanned off back quick is actually a pretty popular angle...not saying its for reasons other then mentioned in this thread but I've heard it mentioned numerous times over the years by widely recognized handicappers...

[wiffleball whizz]

Bravo! :lol:


.04 posts a day and comes out of the woodwork riding Saratoga mikes coattails

[Stillriledup]

.04 posts a day and comes out of the woodwork riding Saratoga mikes coattails

Don't worry, he posts once every 3 months on average, you won't have him back to laugh at you until Christmas!
:D

[Robert Goren]

Or, it would lead to only the worst of the worst injured horses seeing the van. And after all, we do want to protect the horses from the human elements in racing in almost every thread, right?You are even a bigger cynic than me. You are moving into the "Tom" range. Heaven, help you.

[johnhannibalsmith]

You are even a bigger cynic than me. You are moving into the "Tom" range. Heaven, help you.

I guess it's cynicism. The industry seems to go out of its way to van everything off that is pulled up in recent years. I don't seem to remember it being quite so automatic until it started taking baby steps on the image front when it comes to on-track injuries (and other maladies like bleeding).

If you think it's crazy talk to think that you'd see fewer horses getting the auto van ride if the track knew that they'd be shipping out of state to run elsewhere to avoid the six month jail there, then okay. I don't. I think it's pretty much a case of cause and effect and just one of several unintended consequences that would result from such a "solution" that would likely be a worse outcome for everyone (including animals) than what we have now. I think there is room to improve (California posts its vet lists online pretty reliably), but I think this six month ban for getting a ride home is a pretty lousy idea. Then again, I'm not a fan of "zero tolerance" policies that remove all discretion in scenarios where discretion should be exactly what weighs heaviest in decisions.

[FantasticDan]

My Donna Jean's status after being vanned off was reported on the NYS injury database:

Horse: My Donna Jean
Incident: STEWARDS/VETS LIST
Racing Type: Thoroughbred
Location/Type: Belmont Park (NYRA), After Finish; Racing
Date: 09/15/2013
Trainer: LINDA R. FISHER
Jockey/Driver: ABEL LEZCANO
Weather: 70* partly Cloudy
My Donna Jean-Trainer Linda Fisher-pulled up-ambulanced off-no injuries reported-must requalify

http://breakdown.gaming.ny.gov/searchbreakdown.detail.php?ID=7266

[wiffleball whizz]

These things are destroying racing but whatever.....I work now and play cards for money.....dont have to spot play $200 on a 4/5 anymore.....was at laurel 2 times in the last week and "didn't want to be there"

Racing can have fun trying to replace me.....they will get me once a week now...no more 3-4 days a week

Van off win by 6 will empty those grandstands after a while

[maclr11]

So you have a horse that is vanned off because he's sore.
Given some time off and some vet work he is better. Now he comes back and works twice 6 weeks down the road in 49 or 50 seconds in front of the track veterinarian and he works good.
He had a frog that was falling out or like Indy Point in the Arlington Million he stung his feet. Your realizing you guys are saying Indy Point shouldn't have run in and won the John Henry Turf Championship.
Or the horse had a muscle pull, a nail from his shoe was in his foot, he has an old bow that made him take some bad steps and the rider played it safe.
So now I can't run what has turned back into a sound horse in a race and have a legitimate shot to win if I'm fit and ready to go.

I'm not sure what your problem is whiff, horses turn around in form, people can make them feel better and run better, not all problems are career ending. Just because a horse takes a van ride home it is not the end of the world.
I even know horses who have riders who are instructed to take the van ride home with certain horses because they win and are so sore, or they are playing the claiming game, its not an instant elimination, its just another complication in a complicated game.

Vanned off are lot easier to deal with than first time surface switches, unexpected change of tactics and things of that nature.

I don't disagree with vet lists being public. It goes up online and it will say sick, lame, etc. etc. but just cause a horse makes the vets list doesn't mean he cant come back and win

[johnhannibalsmith]

My Donna Jean's status after being vanned off was reported on the NYS injury database:

Horse: My Donna Jean
Incident: STEWARDS/VETS LIST
Racing Type: Thoroughbred
Location/Type: Belmont Park (NYRA), After Finish; Racing
Date: 09/15/2013
Trainer: LINDA R. FISHER
Jockey/Driver: ABEL LEZCANO
Weather: 70* partly Cloudy
My Donna Jean-Trainer Linda Fisher-pulled up-ambulanced off-no injuries reported-must requalify

http://breakdown.gaming.ny.gov/searchbreakdown.detail.php?ID=7266

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Forgot that NY is on the ball as well now.

Looks like SRU could have found out quite a bit there - "no injuries reported".

[Robert Goren]

I know I am going to eaten alive for what I am about to say, but so be it.
"Van off" should mean something when it is printed in the PPs . When it doesn't, it calls into question everything else that is printed. I don't know if racing can survive that. Handicappers must have to reliable information they trust in order to make a bet. Otherwise, we might just as well start throwing darts. If the powers that be in the sport can't see that, then the game is finished. I do not believe most bettors want to play "let's try to out guess the crooks" instead of making a logical selection based on speed, class, pace and whatever else they use.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I know I am going to eaten alive for what I am about to say, but so be it.
"Van off" should mean something when it is printed in the PPs ...

I certainly won't eat you alive at all. That is reasonable. We put all kinds of garbage in the PPs now and SRU is asking for complete medical volumes so he can poke around for a hidden myectomy.

The horses that make a list are given at a minimum a vague categorization recognizing the reason for being on the list, a minimum time to stay on the list, and whether or not the horse needs to work to come off the list.

I see very little reason why this data (which would likely help a lot of people that struggle with these scenarios or at least dealing with the mystery of it all) couldn't be codified and reported in the same way that obscurities like "no hind shoes" are reported with a 'z' or whatever the heck it is. You wouldn't even need to clog up the already congested space to give people all the information that someone that can see an actual vet list has at their disposal. That seems like a very doable and worthwhile idea.

[Stillriledup]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Forgot that NY is on the ball as well now.

Looks like SRU could have found out quite a bit there - "no injuries reported".

No injuries reported and no injuries are two different things.

[MJC922]

IMO there has to be some back story to this one which the officials should at least question. A 1% trainer off two bad lines doesn't go off at 3-1. Even if the trainer had a good rep I don't see this horse lower than 4-1 on paper. Unlikely things happen, this is racing after all but if it happens with enough frequency at certain tracks the thing to do is bet someplace else. That is what can change things over time. Take your business elsewhere.

[rastajenk]

"Van off" should mean something when it is printed in the PPs .It's simply telling you what happened. What's it supposed to mean? Should comments be edited later? The horse got a ride back to the barn after it finished the race in which it lead into the stretch. Should chartcallers go down and follow it so as to add a little something extra to the comment, and how long should he wait before finding out there's not much more to add? What exactly are you getting at?

[Saratoga_Mike]

.04 posts a day and comes out of the woodwork riding Saratoga mikes coattails

Maybe he's focused on quality - give it a try.

[the little guy]

There are so many misconceptions thrown around on message boards that it's virtually impossible to even pay attention to them anymore. It has, without question, become a Chicken Little scenerio, and the facts belie the squealing.

Thankfully, these days increased precautions include perhaps more frequently "vanning" horses off the track just in case a possible situation is serious, and to increase all probabilities that issues can be dealt with responsibly. Where once, perhaps, a horse might have been walked back to the barn, possibly exacerbating a situation, now they are vanned back. This is a very good thing....though according to one person here, this is what is driving people away from the game. I can only hope that same person doesn't apply that logic to the other choices they make in life. If anything, it is increasing confidence, as not only are we, as an industry, attempting to be as humane as possible, we are also increasing the likelihood that when that horse returns to the racetrack, it will receive the optimum veteranary scrutiny.

I hope, and faithfully assume, that most people recognize what is responsible as opposed to what is the opposite ( though the PA Hall of Fame thread casts some serious doubt on that ).

[johnhannibalsmith]

No injuries reported and no injuries are two different things.

What is that you want? Video confirmation? What more do you expect to get than a report? A 35.3 breezing isn't the same thing as a 35.3 breezing reported either. What praytell should we do about the horses that are working and we only have "reports" to go on?

[Robert Goren]

It's simply telling you what happened. What's it supposed to mean? Should comments be edited later? The horse got a ride back to the barn after it finished the race in which it lead into the stretch. Should chartcallers go down and follow it so as to add a little something extra to the comment, and how long should he wait before finding out there's not much more to add? What exactly are you getting at?If it doesn't mean anything, then why is it there. We all know what the connotations are as does the track. That why the horse had to re-qualify. I and most bettors think the trainer pulled a fast one. It is the track and the state of NY's job to prevent these kinds of shenanigans. Horses should not be vanned off unless injured. To the bettor like me, this is no different than running a ringer. It goes to the integrity of the game. The really sad part of this thread is that there are bettors who have become so jaded that they think this stunt is acceptable.

[Charli125]

I really like how they do it in Hong Kong, though I understand it's much easier with a central racing authority and a limited number of tracks. While I'm sure there is still inside information over there, I think keeping these kinds of records sure helps out with giving everyone as much information in common as possible.

Don't take this as me bad mouthing any specific jurisdiction. In order for the US to have something similar, we'd need a lot of disinterested parties to work together to form a unified solution. I don't see that happening, but in a perfect world, this is what I'd like to see.

http://racing.hkjc.com/racing/info/meeting/VeterinaryRecord/english/Local

http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/ove_record.asp

[johnhannibalsmith]

... Horses should not be vanned off unless injured. ...

So...

When the rider pulls one up and the track vet comes over and the rider starts telling him how the horse was traveling funny suddenly, took a bad step, whatever -- are they going to whip out the X-ray machine and see what the problem is or isn't? Jog the horse around on the race track trying to diagnose the possible problem?

How exactly do we separate the horse that may be injured from those that are injured to your satisfaction?

How about the first time one gets the green light to walk off because he's "not that bad" and by the time the adrenaline wears off, he's drop dead lame halfway to the barn? Do we just accept that treatment of horses - after going completely the other direction to avoid the image problems of doing just that - because so and so thinks that everyone from the trainer, the jock, the stewards, and the track vet are all in on the big scheme to get one vanned off, report it, make it work not once but twice, run it back and have it run just like it did before it was vanned off and be part of this big alleged charade to defraud people?

I know it's crazy thinking, but maybe it would be possible to assume that just because a horse was vanned off last time - that doesn't mean that the horse is suddenly completely useless and can no longer race. It just means that it was vanned off. If it's back in the entries, there is probably some realistic chance that someone does in fact know more than you and your comment line and thinks that the horse is A-Okay to be racing today. Personally, I love vanned off horses because a lot of people just totally ignore them, thinking like you do. Most of those that get vanned off aren't worth playing anyway, but the ones that are worth playing without the line are often even more playable with the line... just because of the assumption that the horse couldn't possibly be okay.

[MadWorld]

Broken down horse with a no name trainer and a fresh "van off" comment shows up with a 4 for 93 rider at 15-1 ML as the "first throwout" in the race, but a funny thing happens on the way from point A to point B. The horse gets bet like the public knows the result in advance and MDJ comes roaring home to just miss. She looked to be "laboring" heading to the top of the lane, she's a pace pressing/stopper type, so you figured she was "done" turning for home, but no, she comes blasting home to just miss the win.

Which gets me to think that "they" are betting large money into these pools with information that is not known to the general public. If you are a paper and pen handicapper and don't have "connections" there was no way you were going to be able to know that My Donna Jean was "ok" and the van off was nothing more than a false flag.

Was My Donna Jean 3-1 based on people who only had the PPs and video analysis to go on? Im going to say no, it was money from someone who knew she was going to be "good" today.

Am I missing something? The horse lost. Shouldn't bettors that actually picked the winner be happy that their odds were higher because the "no hoper" took money?

[mountainman]

I've seen heartless jockies pull sound horses up at the slightest bobble or misstep, and cover themselves by insisting the horse be vanned off. It's not unheard of for a runner to PRANCE onto the far-turn taxi.

[wiffleball whizz]

Maybe he's focused on quality - give it a try.

This is 2 times now in this thread that I've had a cheap shot thrown at me......I never disrespect any member here,......

[1st time lasix]

I previously putt WIZZ on ignore...so i won't have to be vanned off

[Stillriledup]

Maybe he's focused on quality - give it a try.

Are you the message board quality control guy who determines a quality post from a non quality post?

Maybe Whizz should check in with you before he posts....you know, to make sure its ok with you?

[Stillriledup]

There are so many misconceptions thrown around on message boards that it's virtually impossible to even pay attention to them anymore. It has, without question, become a Chicken Little scenerio, and the facts belie the squealing.

Thankfully, these days increased precautions include perhaps more frequently "vanning" horses off the track just in case a possible situation is serious, and to increase all probabilities that issues can be dealt with responsibly. Where once, perhaps, a horse might have been walked back to the barn, possibly exacerbating a situation, now they are vanned back. This is a very good thing....though according to one person here, this is what is driving people away from the game. I can only hope that same person doesn't apply that logic to the other choices they make in life. If anything, it is increasing confidence, as not only are we, as an industry, attempting to be as humane as possible, we are also increasing the likelihood that when that horse returns to the racetrack, it will receive the optimum veteranary scrutiny.

I hope, and faithfully assume, that most people recognize what is responsible as opposed to what is the opposite ( though the PA Hall of Fame thread casts some serious doubt on that ).

The thing that increases confidence is transparency. Racing needs to work harder on that.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Are you the message board quality control guy who determines a quality post from a non quality post?

Maybe Whizz should check in with you before he posts....you know, to make sure its ok with you?

I don't have enough time to pre-authorize his every post, but it's a nice thought. Thanks SRU.

[Stillriledup]

I don't have enough time to pre-authorize his every post, but it's a nice thought. Thanks SRU.

You're welcome, always looking to help!

[Boca Poppy]

Today Belmont 6th race: #1 Normandy 2/1 Wire to Wire last race comment "vanned off"

[andtheyreoff]

Today Belmont 6th race: #1 Normandy 2/1 Wire to Wire last race comment "vanned off"

That race happened more than two months ago, she had competitive speed figures, had good workouts before the race (note the horse did not return to the worktab until September 17), and, of course, had David Jacobson. Totally legitimate horse, and a non-issue.

[Stillriledup]

That race happened more than two months ago, she had competitive speed figures, had good workouts before the race (note the horse did not return to the worktab until September 17), and, of course, had David Jacobson. Totally legitimate horse, and a non-issue.

It never seems to be an issue. In fact, it seems to be an advantage.

[wiffleball whizz]

Does it cost the owners money if the horse is vanned off?

Owner to jock: if you think we're done pull him up lets get vanned off and well get it all next week

Jock: sounds good to me


I may start blasting this angle at any small purse track

[classhandicapper]

Getting back to the original premise of the thread, IMO there is NO DOUBT that insiders have access to critical information about horses that players do not.

When I graduated high school (in what seems like another lifetime it was so long ago), I decided to go work on the backstretch for a summer before going to college. I was already a passionate fan of the game and wanted to see the inside.

During a 3 month period in which I only had access to information about horses from trained by David Sazer and Bobby Lake (same shed row), I got critical information multiple times. I even remember the names of some of the horses.

1. Double Loom - The horse's last race looked weak on paper, but off the horse's prior form he would have been 8-5. I asked David Sazer what happened. He told me the jock saw one of the bandages coming loose during the race and wrapped up on the horse because he was afraid of an accident. I bet enthusiastically. The horse paid $10 and change. There was no note of that anywhere in the DRF.

2. I saw a maiden race that drew a terrible field that was begging for a first time starter. Bobby Lake had one entered in the race. The horse had a handful of very slow breezes, wasn't well bred etc.... There was no way I could bet the horse blindly. I asked the groom if the horse had any ability at all. He told me "Absolutely, we know the horse can run". The horse won for fun at $7.80.

3. We had a horse in our barn that won her last race by 7 lengths. We were dropping her slightly in claiming price off the win. The public had to guess whether we were trying to get rid of a horse that was going bad, trying to squeeze another win out of her before she went bad, etc... I knew she was in a tub of ice for days after that win, missed a lot of training, and was in nowhere near the same condition as when she won. All the public knew was that she was even money if she was healthy and a long shot if not, so they made her 2-1. I bet against her enthusiastically and she finished a well beaten 3rd. She got claimed and I don't think she ever ran again.

4. Mark Casse (senior) had a 2yo horse with us that I used to like to watch train. One day the horse worked sensationally compared to what I was used to seeing. The track was wet that day. When the exercise rider came back I asked him if I was imagining it or did the horse really do as well as I thought. He immediately said the horse absolutely loved that wet track. I stored that information away until the horse raced on a wet track and won.

This was just a 3 month period, with access to only 2 trainers, for a kid that still had a lot to learn.

There is no doubt that insiders know things we don't. Whether they always use that information intelligently in their own betting is another matter. But if you are a good handicapper to begin with and can pick up tidbits like that, you definitely have an edge.

[rastajenk]

Does it cost the owners money if the horse is vanned off?No.

[thespaah]

Broken down horse with a no name trainer and a fresh "van off" comment shows up with a 4 for 93 rider at 15-1 ML as the "first throwout" in the race, but a funny thing happens on the way from point A to point B. The horse gets bet like the public knows the result in advance and MDJ comes roaring home to just miss. She looked to be "laboring" heading to the top of the lane, she's a pace pressing/stopper type, so you figured she was "done" turning for home, but no, she comes blasting home to just miss the win.

Which gets me to think that "they" are betting large money into these pools with information that is not known to the general public. If you are a paper and pen handicapper and don't have "connections" there was no way you were going to be able to know that My Donna Jean was "ok" and the van off was nothing more than a false flag.

Was My Donna Jean 3-1 based on people who only had the PPs and video analysis to go on? Im going to say no, it was money from someone who knew she was going to be "good" today.
If the odds were big( 15 20 30-1) I'd see your point.
The horse was bet down to 3-1 off a 15-1 ML...That should tell the bettors the horse is live. At least use it in verticals.

[thespaah]

It was COLD.

Even my Mom made fun of my hat!
What's worse....Funky hat or sweating your stones off in a mid August heat wave?
I'll go with the hat. Let them make fun. It's better than sweating so much that your clothes feel like they are sliding as you walk.

[thespaah]

Yes I do actually......SRU made a valid point about a horse being vanned off and took all the cheese like he couldn't miss.....a textbook "they" horse

I was at work and had no way of seeing a program to see the lines but if a horse is vanned off and taking play there's only the inside group that can know that

What do u think the little people like me think when a horse gets vanned off and then next start rips a field to shreds......these people like me don't like it

I will say its pretty cool to have the best in the game drill me on a post though....pretty much like tiger woods going on a golf forum blasting somebody saying that tiger winning regular tournements doesn't mean he's back


Must be nice to be the master.....must be nice
I saw a horse collapse just past the wire at Saratoga this August.
The horse was given water and they poured water on the animal. Within a few minutes, the horse got to it's feet and was walked off.
I'd like to see THAT in the comments of the PP's.
"Wide through stretch, collapsed after finish, walked off"....
:confused:

[thespaah]

No.
Unreal....In my county a patient given ambulance service is billed $500.
People get hit with a bill, but they will take an animal to the nearest medical facility free of charge. Oh the irony.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Unreal....In my county a patient given ambulance service is billed $500.
People get hit with a bill, but they will take an animal to the nearest medical facility free of charge. Oh the irony.

Unless I am misunderstanding...

...Other than the test barn or the "final destination", I can't ever recall seeing or hearing of a horse vanned off the track to anywhere but his or her stall.

[rastajenk]

Of course. Even if it was a ship-in, the ride would be to the ship-in barn; not home. Certainly not to Rood & Riddle.

[wiffleball whizz]

Morbid question but I would like to hear the answer

When a horse breaks down on the track that he shipped into and is vanned off what happens?

And if the horse is put down who pays for the vet bill and or removal of the horse? Does the track pick up that expense?

If a horse is shipped in and is vanned off do they just bring the horse to the ship in barn and that's it?

[cj]

Unreal....In my county a patient given ambulance service is billed $500.
People get hit with a bill, but they will take an animal to the nearest medical facility free of charge. Oh the irony.

Same here, the only conscious people that will get in an ambulance are the ones that have no intention of paying anyway.