Pool manipulation at SA R6?

[bks]

Someone (I'm imagining it's some "one") just bet $25K to win on the #3 horse, who finished 7th by 7 at 66-1 at this level last out.

Bears watching.

[Exotic1]

Had to be a mis - punch. They'll cancel, they may have had the wrong horse or the wrong race.

[bks]

And the money has been removed.

[Stillriledup]

I dont agree that its a mispunch, its blatant manipulation. People betting 20k double check things, tellers double check things, everyone makes sure its the right race, the right number, etc.

[Exotic1]

What's the intent of the "manipulator" - money was in for 2 minutes and then taken out?

[Segwin]

How do you find the info that someone bet this amount?

[Stillriledup]

Another reason its manipulation is because the 20k never showed up on another horse....so, calling out the "Wrong number" isnt a possibility, its money that was never intended to go into the pool in the first place.

[therussmeister]

The intent of the manipulator was to get people talking on Pace Advantage.

[dnlgfnk]

Also, we know that Jon White is not Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican or Lutheran.

He just pronounced "Diocesan Policy" as Dee-o-sis`-en Policy.

[Stillriledup]

How do you find the info that someone bet this amount?

The person bet at least 22,000 because the horse had 25k on her to win, and now she has 1,900 with 3 mtp.

[lamboguy]

The intent of the manipulator was to get people talking on Pace Advantage.this makes total sense

[Exotic1]

Another reason its manipulation is because the 20k never showed up on another horse....so, calling out the "Wrong number" isnt a possibility, its money that was never intended to go into the pool in the first place.

Unintentional - but with intent to manipulate, how does that work?

The mispunch could have been punched by a program. There are 3 horses that can win - 1, 7, 8.

[Stillriledup]

What's the intent of the "manipulator" - money was in for 2 minutes and then taken out?

First leg of the huge pick 4 pool, headed well north of 500k, that was up there for 2 or 3 mins, at least one person threw her into their part wheel, so that's dead money right there. Also, anyone who's betting the race starts thinking "i wonder what's going on" and maybe they'll throw some money on this horse in a tri box or underneath in the super.

I think if they left the money in and took it all out at 1 MTP people would have had a cow.

They should have a cow anyway, hopefully this gets investigated.

[Exotic1]

Or the #4.

[wiffleball whizz]

I dont agree that its a mispunch, its blatant manipulation. People betting 20k double check things, tellers double check things, everyone makes sure its the right race, the right number, etc.


Most accurate post I've ever read on here......

If your betting that much EVERYBODY is at a minimum double checking

Glad I'm home watching football and not particaptating in filth corrupt pools

[dnlgfnk]

Also, we know that Jon White is not Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican or Lutheran.

He just pronounced "Diocesan Policy" as Dee-o-sis`-en Policy.

Trevor, either.

[Exotic1]

First leg of the huge pick 4 pool, headed well north of 500k, that was up there for 2 or 3 mins, at least one person threw her into their part wheel, so that's dead money right there. Also, anyone who's betting the race starts thinking "i wonder what's going on" and maybe they'll throw some money on this horse in a tri box or underneath in the super.

I think if they left the money in and took it all out at 1 MTP people would have had a cow.

They should have a cow anyway, hopefully this gets investigated.

You think that a 10k would have the same effect.

Anyway, wonder about the process of cancelling a 20k bet, who's the head of mutuals at SRU Downs?

[TheEdge07]

Most accurate post I've ever read on here......

If your betting that much EVERYBODY is at a minimum double checking

Glad I'm home watching football and not particaptating in filth corrupt pools

But wiff you rather be watching fix football games then wager on the "they"pool?

[Stillriledup]

You think that a 10k would have the same effect.

Anyway, wonder about the process of cancelling a 20k bet, who's the head of mutuals at SRU Downs?

lol, i know what you're saying, 10k would have had the same effect, it would be interesting to find out what happened. I know that if SA investigates this they'll say the bettor "made an error" but that's not acceptable because the 20k never went onto another horse. It just got taken out of the pool, which is clear manipulation.

[Track Phantom]

It was a $25,000 bet. It went from $25,919 to $919 in one click (watching on Twin Spires). It could be as simple as the teller mistakenly punched 25k to win. Then, needed to get the manager to cancel it which is why it took a few minutes to cancel.

I don't think it was pool manipulation.

[Exotic1]

Agreed. The 20k didn't make it back into the win pool - on one punch at least - and there should be an explanation put forth by the track.

[wiffleball whizz]

If you wanna cancel a ticket for 25k it better go in on another horse.....either way it's a scumbag move and was no mistake

[Stillriledup]

Most accurate post I've ever read on here......

If your betting that much EVERYBODY is at a minimum double checking

Glad I'm home watching football and not particaptating in filth corrupt pools

There are VERY few horseplayers punching 20k win bets that are actually legit and if they're making legit win bets, they're not punching 20k first flash on huge longshots, large bettors didnt get to be large bettors by being idiots.

None of this stuff matters, SA will take no action on this, no teller will get fired and now ADW will be held accountable. If it was some kind of robot betting, they need to shut off that robot and let everyone bet like we all do, verbally on the phone, verbally to a teller or a SAM machine.

[wiffleball whizz]

But wiff you rather be watching fix football games then wager on the "they"pool?


All these games are rehearsed.....letting ravens score is rehearsed Green Bay nit winning by 30 is a scam

[Stillriledup]

It was a $25,000 bet. It went from $25,919 to $919 in one click (watching on Twin Spires). It could be as simple as the teller mistakenly punched 25k to win. Then, needed to get the manager to cancel it which is why it took a few minutes to cancel.

I don't think it was pool manipulation.

Tellers at live tracks can't punch 25k, they have to punch tickets in 500 or 1000 increments, also tellers at live tracks rarely if ever see a bet that large to win on one horse early in the betting, i can't imagine that this wasnt double or triple checked before punching out all those tickets and actually getting the physical money from someone, 25k worth.

[Exotic1]

It was a $25,000 bet. It went from $25,919 to $919 in one click (watching on Twin Spires). It could be as simple as the teller mistakenly punched 25k to win. Then, needed to get the manager to cancel it which is why it took a few minutes to cancel.

I don't think it was pool manipulation.

I saw it as 25k as well.

[affirmedny]

Trevor, either.

He just called Rosengold Rossenburg through the whole stretch

[Exotic1]

That's funny. The money that was cancelled from the #3 in 6th race was originally supposed to be placed on the #3 in the 7th.

[Stillriledup]

He just called Rosengold Rossenburg through the whole stretch

It was a large field and those large fields are hard to call, you know? ;)

[Exotic1]

SRU - there were 70 p6 tickets alive going into the 8th. The favorite wins the 8th and now there are only 39 tickets alive. Just a non-conspiratorial view but a little interesting that the bettor(s) had a few longshots in the sequence and were knocked out by the favorite. Maybe there were one or two bettors that were are still alive and they spread in the 8th. I'm not suggesting anything nefarious at all.

[Some_One]

Pgm # M/L 20 17 15 12 10 7 5 4 3 2 1 0 Final
1 4 5 6 5 5 2 2 5/2 5/2 3 3 3 7/2 3
2 5 30 15 15 15 7 8 9 9 10 10 10 11 13
3 8 1/5 2/5 2/5 1/2 20 20 20 18 16 16 17 19 24
4 3 11 9 8 8 3 5/2 5/2 2 2 5/2 5/2 5/2 2
5 30 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
6 8 30 25 25 25 12 11 10 10 10 11 11 12 15
7 9/5 9 8 7 7 5/2 2 2 2 2 9/5 8/5 3/2 8/5
8 6 25 22 20 20 8 8 9 9 9 8 8 9 8
Win Pool: $41,012 $44,002 $45,984 $47,838 $25,011 $32,382 $42,608 $46,849 $51,290 $62,697 $69,907 $105,874 $148,206

[wiffleball whizz]

This pool cheating gotta stop.......but how can it stop when track makes money off handle.....can't win

I realize track not making money off cancelations but if player is big player they don't mind a cancelation.......the little people can't win

[Stillriledup]

This pool cheating gotta stop.......but how can it stop when track makes money off handle.....can't win

I realize track not making money off cancelations but if player is big player they don't mind a cancelation.......the little people can't win

Track has no incentive to "tick off" big bettors, there's really nothing in it for them....they arent in the business to make sure ALL their customers are happy, all they care about is making money and there's no money in forcing pool manipulators to quit it.

[wiffleball whizz]

Track has no incentive to "tick off" big bettors, there's really nothing in it for them....they arent in the business to make sure ALL their customers are happy, all they care about is making money and there's no money in forcing pool manipulators to quit it.


That's how I see it.......if the $17 bettor is mad who cares as long as the $1000 bettor is happy.......

Small players are irrelevant in tracks eyes

[Stillriledup]

That's how I see it.......if the $17 bettor is mad who cares as long as the $1000 bettor is happy.......

Small players are irrelevant in tracks eyes

They don't realize that if they kicked out the cheaters and stopped the pool manipulators and ran their track with an iron fist, bettors would gravitate towards their signal due to the integrity issue...these places are always looking for the short term fix and the short term profit while ignoring how they are perceived, which hurts them in the long run.

[Dave Schwartz]

I asked a friend of mine for her take on this. Until a few months ago, she was a mutuel clerk for many years. This was her response:

The three tracks I worked at, Calder, Gulfstream, and Hollywood Dog Track, all had a limit on what a Teller could punch. It was $1000 at the horses and $50 at the dogs. It would have required 25 individual tickets to bet $25K.

Any Teller would most definitely have counted the money before punching the bet. We get stuck with a ticket, we pay!

What ever the bet was, it was not something easily cancelled either. To go from $25919 to $919 would most likely require the cancelling of 25 tickets. Could this have been online betting?

I NEVER saw a bet that big. The biggest I ever saw was $2000 to WPS, $6000 total.

As I recall from my days in Southern California, there was a "big bettors room" - more of a large cubicle, really - where players could make large wagers with a degree of privacy. I saw such an area at Hollywood Park. Perhaps they have that at Santa Anita. And perhaps there is a different set of limits in such an area.

However, I would say that it is highly unlikely that this was a "mistake at the teller window." Not impossible, but very unlikely.

Online it is a very real possibility, and canceling is certainly possible.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that it was the amount that was in error. I mean, suppose someone actually wanted to wager (say) $250.

[Stillriledup]

I asked a friend of mine for her take on this. Until a few months ago, she was a mutuel clerk for many years. This was her response:



As I recall from my days in Southern California, there was a "big bettors room" - more of a large cubicle, really - where players could make large wagers with a degree of privacy. I saw such an area at Hollywood Park. Perhaps they have that at Santa Anita. And perhaps there is a different set of limits in such an area.

However, I would say that it is highly unlikely that this was a "mistake at the teller window." Not impossible, but very unlikely.

Online it is a very real possibility, and canceling is certainly possible.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that it was the amount that was in error. I mean, suppose someone actually wanted to wager (say) $250.

But if the amount was in error, it had to be someone with at least 25k in his or her account. I would imagine not too many bettors have a balance that big.

[Robert Goren]

But if the amount was in error, it had to be someone with at least 25k in his or her account. I would imagine not too many bettors have a balance that big.The way people talk here, I get the feeling every poster but me has at least $25k in their account. :(

[Dave Schwartz]

But if the amount was in error, it had to be someone with at least 25k in his or her account. I would imagine not too many bettors have a balance that big.

No doubt on this.

[Grits]

Dave, I don't know about Robert, but I know you've been doing this a pretty long time, and I would estimate that most likely, you're both correct. I would imagine that there are few here at PA beyond the typical $20 to $50 win bet, the wheeled exacta and trifecta and the pick 4 (this one not daily.) There are some, yes.

The ego thing creates the toughest of walls and blind spots. Men are sometimes not honest, or at least I believe they don't want to be in public. They don't discuss their losses, instead they ignore those and keep moving. They rarely elaborate on their difficulties--the ones that are on "their end". The problems they haven't quite figured out with their game. Instead, many dwell on their firm opinion on what is wrong in the industry and horses in general. They share those frequently.

I'm just the $20 to $30 win bettor, with exactas, today. In the past I partnered with someone who put thousands per day through the windows. It was nice, but it was a lot of work, and nerve wracking as hell. A horseplayer's bankroll is up against it when it comes to real estate and other investments that are far more solid, and create a continuous return. There is NO quick path to wealth in this life, only hard work. And more importantly, smart work.

I wish I was a person who could watch thousands rise and fall (stocks excluded, they're in the account for the long term). If I were, I doubt I'd be where I am today. I can't bet horses for a living. Its too hard to be successful, day in, day out.

Honesty with oneself is a good thing. It gives us the ability to know our strengths and our weaknesses. I know I don't have the stomach for losing large sums of money a day.

[wiffleball whizz]

Dave, I don't know about Robert, but I know you've been doing this a pretty long time, and I would estimate that most likely, you're both correct. I would imagine that there are few here at PA beyond the typical $20 to $50 win bet, the wheeled exacta and trifecta and the pick 4 (this one not daily.) There are some, yes.

The ego thing creates the toughest of walls and blind spots. Men are sometimes not honest, or at least I believe they don't want to be in public. They don't discuss their losses, instead they ignore those and keep moving. They rarely elaborate on their difficulties--the ones that are on "their end". The problems they haven't quite figured out with their game. Instead, many dwell on their firm opinion on what is wrong in the industry and horses in general. They share those frequently.

I'm just the $20 to $30 win bettor, with exactas, today. In the past I partnered with someone who put thousands per day through the windows. It was nice, but it was a lot of work, and nerve wracking as hell. A horseplayer's bankroll is up against it when it comes to real estate and other investments that are far more solid, and create a continuous return. There is NO quick path to wealth in this life, only hard work. And more importantly, smart work.

I wish I was a person who could watch thousands rise and fall (stocks excluded, they're in the account for the long term). If I were, I doubt I'd be where I am today. I can't bet horses for a living. Its too hard to be successful, day in, day out.

Honesty with oneself is a good thing. It gives us the ability to know our strengths and our weaknesses. I know I don't have the stomach for losing large sums of money a day.

Grits is repossessed cars electricity turned off after 6 notices, revolving cell phone providers cus of shutoff for non payment, loss of cable/satillite cuz of non payment and hiding cus I owed money is that honesty enough :lol: :lol: :lol:

All lessons learned from when I was 19-24.....all cuz I picked horses so good!!!!

On the Internet you will always hear the wins but you will seldom here losses...

I think it's funnier to tell the truth about his bad I was then post lies about scores I've made over 40k!!!!!

Meanwhile in 2 hours there's filth out there that will be betting and cancelling late, and cheating honest horse players I wish nothing but bad on them/ "they"

[Grits]

Whizz, I know we never hear the losses, the admissions, "oh, I'm down so&so K". Though, you and Phantom have clearly stated such. ;)

Either way, your stories are the stuff of great entertainment.

You're invincible. You really are. You're lucky you've not been murdered....yet. Keep it all in the profit column until next summer and try and stay alive. I want you to come to Saratoga. I know when we meet I'll be able to spot you at either the Union or Nelson Avenue entrance. You'll be the guy in the Brooks Brothers polo and khaki pants. Looking successful, getting out of his girlfriend's Lexus. :lol:

At the harness track, you'll stick out like a sore thumb! Its a good thing the parking lot's well lite, whether your pants are sporting "rabbit ears" or not on the way out. (Who knows, like some of us, you may even get to see a new world record set.)


Grits is repossessed cars electricity turned off after 6 notices, revolving cell phone providers cus of shutoff for non payment, loss of cable/satillite cuz of non payment and hiding cus I owed money is that honesty enough :lol: :lol: :lol:

All lessons learned from when I was 19-24.....all cuz I picked horses so good!!!!

On the Internet you will always hear the wins but you will seldom here losses...

I think it's funnier to tell the truth about his bad I was then post lies about scores I've made over 40k!!!!!

Meanwhile in 2 hours there's filth out there that will be betting and cancelling late, and cheating honest horse players I wish nothing but bad on them/ "they"

[MutuelClerk]

Having worked mutuels ( not mutuals) most of my life. That sounds pretty underhanded. We are a Amtote track. You can put 400 dollars on one ticket. It sounds like they tried influencing the board then cancelled. Pretty shady, and should be looked into. The game has enough issues as it is.

[wiffleball whizz]

Whizz, I know we never hear the losses, the admissions, "oh, I'm down so&so K". Though, you and Phantom have clearly stated such. ;)

Either way, your stories are the stuff of great entertainment.

You're invincible. You really are. You're lucky you've not been murdered....yet. Keep it all in the profit column until next summer and try and stay alive. I want you to come to Saratoga. I know when we meet I'll be able to spot you at either the Union or Nelson Avenue entrance. You'll be the guy in the Brooks Brothers polo and khaki pants. Looking successful, getting out of his girlfriend's Lexus. :lol:

At the harness track, you'll stick out like a sore thumb! Its a good thing the parking lot's well lite, whether your pants are sporting "rabbit ears" or not on the way out. (Who knows, like some of us, you may even get to see a new world record set.)


Have every intention of being at the spa next year for at least a week....been talking with the "untouchable" cjs dad about going up together.....I think it's well documented that he is retired and will have free time

Also gonna try and get the fair faithful in track collector proximity and Ronsmac....

Would be so much fun to be around people here that have the same disease I have in betting horses........but that's very far away


Maybe in the time between we can get the ball in rotation in trying to get wagers canceled......in my opinion dropping odds and pool integrity is the biggest problem not drugs or the dreaded "T" word......

[bks]

Without additional information one might argue the most salient feature of the move was that the bet was made into the most visible pool of a race beginning the late pick 4, the largest pool of the day by far (think it handled in excess of $620K). The exacta and double pools took no similar money. The horse receiving the bet was among the most unlikely to win the race, which had three strong contenders.

Seems to me, anecdotally, that if the intention was to manipulate the pool it didn't work very well. The pk4 payout which was in the normal range for it. Also, putting the money in with ~17minutes to post, and removing it with ~12 minutes is not the ideal for pool manipulation, as fewer bets are made during that cycle than when the race is just a few minutes away. But of course, it's riskier making such a large bet closer to post time unless you have very good reason to believe it will in fact be cancellable.

My verdict at this point: consistent with an effort at pool manipulation, but an unsophisticated attempt.

[Robert Goren]

Have every intention of being at the spa next year for at least a week....been talking with the "untouchable" cjs dad about going up together.....I think it's well documented that he is retired and will have free time

Also gonna try and get the fair faithful in track collector proximity and Ronsmac....

Would be so much fun to be around people here that have the same disease I have in betting horses........but that's very far away


Maybe in the time between we can get the ball in rotation in trying to get wagers canceled......in my opinion dropping odds and pool integrity is the biggest problem not drugs or the dreaded "T" word......Dave, one time, explained how whales start betting at 5 MTP to deceive other whales and the public. Yet nobody is upset with their manipulation of the pools which happens in almost every race at any track with decent sized pools, yet some get upset with a large bet canceled which happens very rarely.

[FocusWiz]

Another, perhaps easier, ploy is to drop significant money on a longshot at the start of the wagering. A large amount then can have a big impact on the odds and will attract attention away from the horse they want to wager on and perhaps steal enough wagers to have an impact on their return. Lots of variations on a theme.

[affirmedny]

Another, perhaps easier, ploy is to drop significant money on a longshot at the start of the wagering. A large amount then can have a big impact on the odds and will attract attention away from the horse they want to wager on and perhaps steal enough wagers to have an impact on their return. Lots of variations on a theme.

You really have to have a lot of confidence in your ADW or wherever you're betting to be manipulating pools with $25k bets. My friend bet $200 on the wrong horse at Meadowlands one night through his njbets account and it took almost an hour for them to figure out how to cancel the bet, well after the race had gone off. They refunded him anyway as it was their fault. I lean towards it being a mistake as opposed to manipulation.

[Stillriledup]

Dave, one time, explained how whales start betting at 5 MTP to deceive other whales and the public. Yet nobody is upset with their manipulation of the pools which happens in almost every race at any track with decent sized pools, yet some get upset with a large bet canceled which happens very rarely.

As long as the bet doesnt come out of the pools, i dont think anyone has a problem with when people bet and how much they bet.

[Stillriledup]

You really have to have a lot of confidence in your ADW or wherever you're betting to be manipulating pools with $25k bets. My friend bet $200 on the wrong horse at Meadowlands one night through his njbets account and it took almost an hour for them to figure out how to cancel the bet, well after the race had gone off. They refunded him anyway as it was their fault. I lean towards it being a mistake as opposed to manipulation.

I agree with this sentiment. Why would a bettor want to put his ADW in a precarious position to have to "answer to" the host track or some other regulating body at why they are making that host track look bad. 25k win bets are rare occasions, and they certainly don't happen on "everyday races" like the race in question in the OP. I would love to know what happened here, hopefully it will come out at some point.