I found this odd

[cj]

The number of G1 races for older males at one mile or longer:

2013
Turf 14
Dirt 8
Synth 2

2012
Turf 19
Dirt 12
Synth 2

2011
Turf 17
Dirt 12
Synt 2

I thought dirt racing was king here?

[JustRalph]

Poly track?

Only 2?

[cj]

Poly track?

Only 2?

I'm assuming the Hollywood Gold Cup and Pacific Classic. Can't think of any others, and that is what comes up in my query, 2.

Since 2004:

Grass: 68
Dirt: 42
Synth:10

[RXB]

The world as a whole races predominantly on grass, so imported horses of quality are mostly going to be grass runners. Plus, the Northern Dancer influence is widespread even in North America and it is definitely a grass-first line. And, a lot of the homegrown dirt horses are retired before they ever see their fourth birthday, thanks to the ever-growing mania regarding the 3YO division.

The slight majority of G1's overall in the USA are on dirt.

[cj]

The world as a whole races predominantly on grass, so imported horses of quality are mostly going to be grass runners. Plus, the Northern Dancer influence is widespread even in North America and it is definitely a grass-first line. And, a lot of the homegrown dirt horses are retired before they ever see their fourth birthday, thanks to the ever-growing mania regarding the 3YO division.

The slight majority of G1's overall in the USA are on dirt.

Yeah, I understand some of why. The horse that run on turf last longer and race longer because they aren't so desired as stallions.

Obviously the overall is going to tilt towards dirt, we basically give zero credit to turf sprints here. We also don't have many G1s on grass for younger horses.

[VeryOldMan]

Wow. My theory - Breeders Cup influence run riot, particularly now that it is atomized into so many races, coupled with modern breeding and/or modern training. Crazy that we have only 8 Grade 1 dirt races.

You know too that graded stakes didn't exist back in "the day"; fall handicap events at Belmont were the culmination of the racing season (Woodward, Marlboro, JCGC) and there were the spring/summer classics too (Met Mile; Brooklyn, Suburban; Whitney, etc., etc.). WAY more than 8 Grade 1 equivalent dirt events in a year. What the heck?

[JustRalph]

Bing Crosby at Del Mar is listed as a grade 1

Clement Hirsch FM

Del Mar Debutante Fillies 2yr olds

Del Mar Futurity 2 yr olds

Listed as Grade ones on poly via the Del Mar website

[OTM Al]

The number of G1 races for older males at one mile or longer:

2013
Turf 14
Dirt 8
Synth 2

2012
Turf 19
Dirt 12
Synth 2

2011
Turf 17
Dirt 12
Synt 2

I thought dirt racing was king here?

Thing that has made me laugh is that the 10f dirt race is supposed to be the mark of champions these days but there are only 3 Gr1s at that distance open at 3 and up. Don't think there are any at Gr 2 or Gr 3. Of course if you make that list for less than a mile it will invert even with even more skew. Can think of only 2 3 and up open turf sprints at the Gr 1 level and you need to include Woodbine to get there.

[classhandicapper]

This is surprising to me.

It's not so much that I think we need more Grade 1 races on dirt. I just can't imagine that even with some of the European shippers coming over from time to time there are anywhere near that many legitimate Grade 1 races on turf in the US.

[classhandicapper]

You know too that graded stakes didn't exist back in "the day"; fall handicap events at Belmont were the culmination of the racing season (Woodward, Marlboro, JCGC) and there were the spring/summer classics too (Met Mile; Brooklyn, Suburban; Whitney, etc., etc.).

The good ole days. ;)

[cj]

Bing Crosby at Del Mar is listed as a grade 1

Clement Hirsch FM

Del Mar Debutante Fillies 2yr olds

Del Mar Futurity 2 yr olds

Listed as Grade ones on poly via the Del Mar website

This was for males routing.

[cj]

This is surprising to me.

It's not so much that I think we need more Grade 1 races on dirt. I just can't imagine that even with some of the European shippers coming over from time to time there are anywhere near that many legitimate Grade 1 races on turf in the US.

Yes, this is kind of what I came away with as well.

[JustRalph]

This was for males routing.

so you're leaving out the best horses the last couple of years............... ;)

[cj]

so you're leaving out the best horses the last couple of years............... ;)

I also checked females. They also have more turf G1s than dirt at the route distance, though the difference isn't as great.

[OTM Al]

This is surprising to me.

It's not so much that I think we need more Grade 1 races on dirt. I just can't imagine that even with some of the European shippers coming over from time to time there are anywhere near that many legitimate Grade 1 races on turf in the US.

Every country has its grade or group ones. One just recognizes which are of a high quality and which are lesser. Italian group ones are not the same as French group ones. No problem that the US has its grade ones.

[classhandicapper]

Every country has its grade or group ones. One just recognizes which are of a high quality and which are lesser. Italian group ones are not the same as French group ones. No problem that the US has its grade ones.

I understand what you are saying, but on a relative basis it's hard to imagine that we have more Grade 1 races on turf than dirt (even if you combine dirt and synth because they are often the same CA horses). The general perception is that US turf racing is inferior to US dirt racing. So logically it would follow that there should be fewer Grade 1 races on turf.

[OTM Al]

I understand what you are saying, but on a relative basis it's hard to imagine that we have more Grade 1 races on turf than dirt (even if you combine dirt and synth because they are often the same CA horses). The general perception is that US turf racing is inferior to US dirt racing. So logically it would follow that there should be fewer Grade 1 races on turf.

It would if this was all races but once you add the sprints back in you will see the story you expect to. We have many ore grade ones on dirt when you do that.

[cj]

It would if this was all races but once you add the sprints back in you will see the story you expect to. We have many ore grade ones on dirt when you do that.

Kind of shows though what has happened here. There is very little incentive to return older horses to racing at 4 and 5 if they are dirt routers.

[maclr11]

Thing that has made me laugh is that the 10f dirt race is supposed to be the mark of champions these days but there are only 3 Gr1s at that distance open at 3 and up. Don't think there are any at Gr 2 or Gr 3. Of course if you make that list for less than a mile it will invert even with even more skew. Can think of only 2 3 and up open turf sprints at the Gr 1 level and you need to include Woodbine to get there.


I would think the Hawthorne Gold Cup at 1 1/4 for 500k and a Grade 2 would fit the criteria

[taxicab]

Interesting subject indeed.
To take it one step further.....
In the last few years, many of our "star, high profile horses" have been grass runners.
In this country for whatever reason, our best horses { durable, quality, notable if you will } have leaned towards the lawn.
Perhaps the one key word here is "durable".
The grass stars are holding together better.
I'm only guessing here, but one key reason may very well be the breeding of the thoroughbreds in this country.
It has become obvious that horses with "grassy" bloodlines have better long term desired results.
My two cents.
Good thread.

[OTM Al]

I would think the Hawthorne Gold Cup at 1 1/4 for 500k and a Grade 2 would fit the criteria

Exception proving the rule. Had no idea they still ran that at 10f.

[VeryOldMan]

The good ole days. ;)

These must be Grade Zero dirt races at this point :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHczmcKS5M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBV25QzS-E

[Segwin]

The general perception is that US turf racing is inferior to US dirt racing. So logically it would follow that there should be fewer Grade 1 races on turf.

I find that true with my relativity short time around.

Why is that?

[devilsbag]

These must be Grade Zero dirt races at this point :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHczmcKS5M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBV25QzS-E


If Darby Creek Road were running today, especially as versatile as he was on dirt and turf, we'd be sending him to the Hall of Fame. I'm pretty sure that even Gallant Best would be a Grade I winner in 2013, which would make Ronnie Franklin proud.

Meanwhile, back on topic, for lack of a better term there's been an affirmative action plan with graded stakes to spread the wealth, and maybe it's swung too far the other way. Even though it's restricted to sophomores, the Jamaica Handicap would be a good example of this.

[Tom]

Here's what I have for older dirt routes....

[classhandicapper]

It would if this was all races but once you add the sprints back in you will see the story you expect to. We have many ore grade ones on dirt when you do that.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that there used to be a fairly large gap between the best dirt routers and sprinters. By that I mean if you had a versatile Grade 1 router that could drop back to sprint if you wanted to, he would typically lay over the best sprinters. There were even examples of it. My current research seems to suggest the gap has narrowed.

[Valuist]

I would think the Hawthorne Gold Cup at 1 1/4 for 500k and a Grade 2 would fit the criteria

Interesting that this year, they've moved the race from early October to Thanksgiving weekend. Maybe they get some BC Classic runners looking for one more chance to pad their resumes.

[rastajenk]

Isn't that when the Clark is run at CD? Seems like an odd move.

[Robert Goren]

As somebody who hates turf race, this not a shock. It seems during the summer 6 races out of 9 are turf of some kind.
It does kind of gripe me that since so many dirt races are sprints that there very few top races for them. It seems like the only time they run a mile and quarter on the dirt, it is some sort of stakes. It is just nuts!

[JustRalph]

As somebody who hates turf race, this not a shock. It seems during the summer 6 races out of 9 are turf of some kind.
It does kind of gripe me that since so many dirt races are sprints that there very few top races for them. It seems like the only time they run a mile and quarter on the dirt, it is some sort of stakes. It is just nuts!

you hate turf racing? why?

[Robert Goren]

you hate turf racing? why?I have hard time cashing a ticket in a turf race.

[raybo]

It obviously, to me anyway, is a combination of reasons, as mentioned already: many dirt male 3 yos don't continue into their 4th year (this appears to be the most logical reason), turf horses don't sustain as many career ending injuries (next most logical reason), American racing is trying to become more international requiring more turf races to be carded in order to attract shipments from overseas (not a big factor, however), etc..

[raybo]

I have hard time cashing a ticket in a turf race.

I find that turf races, by and large, are decided by class, more than are dirt races, where speed and pace duels predominate. So, if you're a pace/speed handicapper you're probably going to have a harder time with turf races. Also, position at the 2nd call and stretch call aren't as important on the turf, due to the generally easier early fractions. It almost appears to me that since we have fewer turf races, on a daily basis nationwide, those races tend to have larger fields than typical dirt races which makes them tougher to call. Also, there seems to be more dirt to turf moves, for conditioning purposes, than turf to dirt, making for more uncertainty when analyzing those horses moving from dirt to turf for the first time, and the question of trainer intent for those moves.

Just some stuff off the top of my head, no stats to back it up.

[Robert Goren]

I find that turf races, by and large, are decided by class, more than are dirt races, where speed and pace duels predominate. So, if you're a pace/speed handicapper you're probably going to have a harder time with turf races. Also, position at the 2nd call and stretch call aren't as important on the turf, due to the generally easier early fractions. It almost appears to me that since we have fewer turf races, on a daily basis nationwide, those races tend to have larger fields than typical dirt races which makes them tougher to call. Also, there seems to be more dirt to turf moves, for conditioning purposes, than turf to dirt, making for more uncertainty when analyzing those horses moving from dirt to turf for the first time, and the question of trainer intent for those moves.

Just some stuff off the top of my head, no stats to back it up.I was raised on dirt racing and lot of what have learned over the years that apply to dirt racing just do not work with turf races. I am big on track bias as an example. I am not able to find many in turf racing.

[classhandicapper]

I find that turf races, by and large, are decided by class, more than are dirt races, where speed and pace duels predominate. So, if you're a pace/speed handicapper you're probably going to have a harder time with turf races. Also, position at the 2nd call and stretch call aren't as important on the turf, due to the generally easier early fractions. It almost appears to me that since we have fewer turf races, on a daily basis nationwide, those races tend to have larger fields than typical dirt races which makes them tougher to call. Also, there seems to be more dirt to turf moves, for conditioning purposes, than turf to dirt, making for more uncertainty when analyzing those horses moving from dirt to turf for the first time, and the question of trainer intent for those moves.

Just some stuff off the top of my head, no stats to back it up.

I have a way tougher time with turf racing. I used to be dreadful, but I'm at least competent now.

The slower average paces lead to tighter finishes and compressed speed figures but the trips can still matter a lot. So it's tougher to tell which horse was actually best and by how much. Also, extremely slow paces often wreak havoc on final times and turn the figure making process into a guessing game.

In dirt racing, dominant horses usually have a lot of speed, put away their inferior competition with that speed, and go on to win big.

I tend to look for class standouts on grass (rare to get a price) and evidence that some horse that barely won in a slow paced slow final time race is actually way better then he looks. Then you can get a price when they move up and don't get bet too heavily by speed handicappers.

As essential as final time figures are to evaluating the ability of horses, IMO the game is evolving into one where the value is in trying to find situations where final time figures are either wrong or don't measure the ability of the horse well. Everyone has good final time figures.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Turf(and maidens) is probably the reason I don't share the gloomy view of racing many players do today.We hear repeated cries of whole racecards dominated by favorites,dominated by underlays on cookie cutter speed favoring dirt tracks,dominated by underlays in short fields.Turf races are not impervious but it's rare to get those 3 circumstances "Dominating".I play about 2/3rds of all turf races and about the same for maidens on any surface,beyond that I play about 1/3 of dirt races,with the exception of the beginning of meets.Once the shippers and layoff horses run once over the track the odds plummet IMO.

I'd like to see more dirt route stakes and like Goren suggested more races at least 9 furlongs.I used to think some of the old guys that detested 1 turn races were nuts.I'm becoming one of them!(I like the 6.5 and 7f ones)