Secession Movement

[classhandicapper]

http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/is-red-state-america-seceding/

[highnote]

http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/is-red-state-america-seceding/


I think secession is a good thing as I argued in this thread earlier in the week:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107334

[classhandicapper]

I think secession is a good thing as I argued in this thread earlier in the week:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=107334

Me too.

The way things are going, I'd make it 50-50 I spend my golden years in another country unless there is a secession.

[Tom]

We could afford to lose 47% of our states....easily.
In fact, the remaining 53% would then prosper.
Cut the anchors and the ships will sail.

[Track Collector]

I seriously doubt whether any of this will come to pass, particularly in the near-term.

It will be very interesting, as I live in one of the 5 involved counties in MD.

[Robert Goren]

We could afford to lose 47% of our states....easily.
In fact, the remaining 53% would then prosper.
Cut the anchors and the ships will sail.You don't get it, if your state succeeds, you are not part of the US. You will be starting your own national government from scratch. I doubt if the secessionists have thought through what they think they want.

[Robert Goren]

Me too.

The way things are going, I'd make it 50-50 I spend my golden years in another country unless there is a secession.You might want to talk to John McAfee about that.

[Tom]

You don't get it, if your state succeeds, you are not part of the US. You will be starting your own national government from scratch. I doubt if the secessionists have thought through what they think they want.

Duh.
All we need do is use the constitution YOUR side threw away.
Bobby, starting from Ground Zero without democrats is far superior than trying to salvage anything they are involved in.
Do yourself a favor, don't worry about us - we aren't libs. We don't need someone else to take care of us.

[Clocker]

You don't get it, if your state succeeds, you are not part of the US. You will be starting your own national government from scratch.

You say that like it's a bad thing!

[Tom]

Bobby, put the red states in Mexico and in 10 years, the illegal immigration will be heading south, not north. :lol:

[Clocker]

Bobby, put the red states in Mexico and in 10 years, the illegal immigration will be heading south, not north. :lol:

Good grief. We'd have to build a fence along the eastern border of California. :rolleyes:

[fast4522]

Sounds like 47% would be better off with some of this.

[Robert Goren]

Duh.
All we need do is use the constitution YOUR side threw away.
Bobby, starting from Ground Zero without democrats is far superior than trying to salvage anything they are involved in.
Do yourself a favor, don't worry about us - we aren't libs. We don't need someone else to take care of us.The first thing you are going to do is raise an Army, then you will need a currency that is counterfeit proof. You have hope that there is not a run on your banks. The Southern states are going to invaded by the Mexican drug lords because you have no border guards and no ICE. You are need a federal court system up in a hurry because too bit every criminal is going to head your way. So is every crack pot with a gun ...... The residents are going to lose such things as Social Security so you better start figure out what are going to do with old people. That is just for starters. I could go on for pages.

[tucker6]

The first thing you are going to do is raise an Army, then you will need a currency that is counterfeit proof. You have hope that there is not a run on your banks. The Southern states are going to invaded by the Mexican drug lords because you have no border guards and no ICE. You are need a federal court system up in a hurry because too bit every criminal is going to head your way. So is every crack pot with a gun ...... The residents are going to lose such things as Social Security so you better start figure out what are going to do with old people. That is just for starters. I could go on for pages.
Please do, and while you're at it, enlighten us as to what the old US of A will look like when the sunbelt population will no longer be there to support the rustbelt population and its SS fund and entitlement programs. Oh, and when you want to come south for your vacation and to beat the cold, expect a hefty excise tax at the border.

[mostpost]

Robert Goren has ten times more sense than all other posters in this thread combined. Until now that is.

[Robert Goren]

Please do, and while you're at it, enlighten us as to what the old US of A will look like when the sunbelt population will no longer be there to support the rustbelt population and its SS fund and entitlement programs. Oh, and when you want to come south for your vacation and to beat the cold, expect a hefty excise tax at the border. Not worried about that. Your new country will be in chaos for decades. No currency! No Army! No courts! No banks ! Criminals running roughshod over the general populations! No basic services like water and electricity because there is no money to play the employees because there is no currency. All foreign investment gone. Think Somali. Because that is what you are going to end up with.

[Valuist]

You might want to talk to John McAfee about that.

McAfee was wanted for murder. To our knowledge, there's no arrest warrant for murder charges against Classhandicapper.

[Robert Fischer]

looks like destabilization.


same stuff we do on purpose to weaken the muslim countries in the middle east.

[tucker6]

Not worried about that. Your new country will be in chaos for decades. No currency! No Army! No courts! No banks ! Criminals running roughshod over the general populations! No basic services like water and electricity because there is no money to play the employees because there is no currency. All foreign investment gone. Think Somali. Because that is what you are going to end up with.
No foreign investment Think again. Don't forget, we have all those Gulf of Mexico and Texas oil reserves. Don't think we'll have a problem raising money. Currency, armies, and courts are no big deal. You forget that we contribute half of the armed forces and half the courts. We'll just take them over in red states and go from there. Plenty of smart people to create a currencybanking system. You seem to think everyone in the south is stupid.

[Ocala Mike]

Figures; all the superpatriots clamoring about having their kids recite "one nation, UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE" in school are now fantasizing about secession from the union. I remember another famous slogan from my day, which applies: AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!

[Robert Goren]

No foreign investment Think again. Don't forget, we have all those Gulf of Mexico and Texas oil reserves. Don't think we'll have a problem raising money. Currency, armies, and courts are no big deal. You forget that we contribute half of the armed forces and half the courts. We'll just take them over in red states and go from there. Plenty of smart people to create a currencybanking system. You seem to think everyone in the south is stupid. Dream on!:rolleyes: I got news for you those oil reserves belong to the United States, not to the states. Of course you could go to war over them. The South tried fighting a war with the North once and it didn't end well for the South. We won't take it easy on them this time when it is over. :rolleyes:

[tucker6]

Dream on!:rolleyes: I got news for you those oil reserves belong to the United States, not to the states. Of course you could go to war over them. The South tried fighting a war with the North once and it didn't end well for the South. We won't take it easy on them this time when it is over. :rolleyes:
ha, the world is much different now my furry friend. The south is much stronger than the north, and the world is a much smaller place than it was 150 years ago. Many would assist the new country, if for no other reason than to weaken the old country.

[Robert Goren]

ha, the world is much different now my furry friend. The south is much stronger than the north, and the world is a much smaller place than it was 150 years ago. Many would assist the new country, if for no other reason than to weaken the old country. What have you been smoking? Better enjoy whatever it is because your new country won't allow any of it. The God sellers will make sure of that. Oh, one other thing you made your last bet on anything. The God sellers will make sure of that too.:rolleyes:

[tucker6]

What have you been smoking? Better enjoy whatever it is because your new country won't allow any of it. The God sellers will make sure of that. Oh, one other thing you made your last bet on anything. The God sellers will make sure of that too.:rolleyes:
No gambling?? So we don't have horse racing, football games, dog racing, cock fighting, and dog fighting now??? I guess I missed the memo. Forget it then. No new country.

[hcap]

Will everyone in this wonderful new land be forced to watch both Atlas Shrugged movies and if they ever raise the money for a third, that one too?

will John Galt finally prove and run his car engine on free static electricity enabling all power plants to produce free energy, and will your government be forced to censor him for proving inadvertently that there is in fact a"free lunch"? :cool:

Will he move his plant to China if not censored, to pay lower wages and save some bucks according to his Maker and Taker philosophy? :D

[DJofSD]

I doubt if the secessionists have thought through what they think they want.

Maybe. Maybe not. But, I can tell you what they don't want.

[DJofSD]

What have you been smoking? Better enjoy whatever it is because your new country won't allow any of it. The God sellers will make sure of that. Oh, one other thing you made your last bet on anything. The God sellers will make sure of that too.:rolleyes:
Er, Bobby, that loco weed is the basis of the economy in a few counties in northern California and southern Oregon. And which, BTW, also want to leave the Union.

[redshift1]

Er, Bobby, that loco weed is the basis of the economy in a few counties in northern California and southern Oregon. And which, BTW, also want to leave the Union.

California marijuana crop 36 billion in 2010.

[Tom]

What have you been smoking? Better enjoy whatever it is because your new country won't allow any of it. The God sellers will make sure of that. Oh, one other thing you made your last bet on anything. The God sellers will make sure of that too.:rolleyes:

You are sure proud of that ignorance.
I have news for yo - you have no clue what REAL conservatism is all about - you parrot what you are spoon fed into that head of full mush of yours.
Most conservative I know favor legalizing pot - rather, we don't think the govt has the right to tell anyone what they can and can't do on their own. I do not believe pot hurts you so smoke all you want to. I would, if I wanted to, but I don't. And if you want to do dangerous drugs that could kill you - that is your choice - have at it. I'll buy! :lol:

Go read a book that has a few less pictures than your current library. Fool.

[hcap]

Hey Tom, are you saying Ted Cruz is not a real conservative? Maybe you guys should make up a catchy acronym that is as descriptive as Rino.?
Conino perhaps? Of course "Con" will work if Conino is too long a word for for most to pronounce :)

[Track Collector]

You don't get it, if your state succeeds, you are not part of the US. You will be starting your own national government from scratch. I doubt if the secessionists have thought through what they think they want.

I think a number of posters need to go back and re-read the article. I'm sure there are significant changes required when forming a new STATE, but they are certainly less than when trying to form a new COUNTRY. ;)

I think those considering this have a very good understanding of what they want, and that is to have representation that reflects their views, and a chance to govern themselves in a manner more beneficial than the way they are currently being governed.

[newtothegame]

You all need to forgive Robert, apparently he has been of his meds.
Robert, what state do you live in again? You are tossing around that term "we" pretty regularly. Obviously you have forgotten what state you live in. Get your ass up and either move north, west, are way east! Nebraska is a pretty red state last I checked and you tend to complain about that a lot as well.
Next, most of the Mississippi flows though red country....hmmmmmm
Here, I provided you a map of election results by county painted blue or red if that's helps.
Most of the agricultural areas....yep red again.
You act as if the entire infrastructure would need to be built from scratch lol. Water, in place. Roads, in place, banks etc etc all in place.
As to the military, the fed military would be dissolved and each new country would reform their own. There is not much doubt in my mind as this would have to happen. Or, is it your contention that the entire armed services is only comprised of liberals? You might want to be careful, last I looked, the military votes primarily red. You could lose out big time on this aspect lol.
I would also imagine the population is about 50/50.
So what again would red states have a hard time with???

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/countymaprb1024.png

[newtothegame]

Figures; all the superpatriots clamoring about having their kids recite "one nation, UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE" in school are now fantasizing about secession from the union. I remember another famous slogan from my day, which applies: AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!
Scared of the idea? That's why libs always knock this idea....
It's funny cap can post cute little charts about how blue states support red states but when this topic comes up, libs are always against it. Wonder why that is??? Hmmm makes ya wonder.... :lol:

[highnote]

If the red states seceded from the union forming a military would be easy. Local militias could handle domestic security. Can you imagine someone trying to invade Mississippi or Louisiana? There were be a militiaman behind every tree and rock and they'd probably have a high powered assault rifle or sniper rifle.

Currency is easy. Gold and silver coins would work well and it would not be terribly difficult to form a treasury and banking system. Lots of experienced people in the red states.

[Robert Goren]

You all need to forgive Robert, apparently he has been of his meds.
Robert, what state do you live in again? You are tossing around that term "we" pretty regularly. Obviously you have forgotten what state you live in. Get your ass up and either move north, west, are way east! Nebraska is a pretty red state last I checked and you tend to complain about that a lot as well.
Next, most of the Mississippi flows though red country....hmmmmmm
Here, I provided you a map of election results by county painted blue or red if that's helps.
Most of the agricultural areas....yep red again.
You act as if the entire infrastructure would need to be built from scratch lol. Water, in place. Roads, in place, banks etc etc all in place.
As to the military, the fed military would be dissolved and each new country would reform their own. There is not much doubt in my mind as this would have to happen. Or, is it your contention that the entire armed services is only comprised of liberals? You might want to be careful, last I looked, the military votes primarily red. You could lose out big time on this aspect lol.
I would also imagine the population is about 50/50.
So what again would red states have a hard time with???

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/countymaprb1024.png
There is no chance that Nebraska would succeed even though it is a very red state. The farmers are not going give up their checks. The GOP congressmen here are already running for cover after a week of the Govt shutdown. They miscalculated how many people here work for the federal Govt. We have a huge military complex near Omaha.
Those state and county militias and their snipers would be no match for a real army with tanks, planes and drones. Get real. this is 2013, not 1913. How quickly would the banks fold without the FDIC. Maybe you want keep your money in one, but doubt very many others, that is assuming that you come with a currency that someone would take in trade.

[Robert Goren]

Of course, this is all a right wing nut pipe dream. The vast majority in every state would stay loyal to the United States. As much as they might disagree with some of the policies of the federal government, they consider themselves Americans first. There is perhaps 1 or 2 % in some states that really want to leave the union.

[newtothegame]

There is no chance that Nebraska would succeed even though it is a very red state. The farmers are not going give up their checks. The GOP congressmen here are already running for cover after a week of the Govt shutdown. They miscalculated how many people here work for the federal Govt. We have a huge military complex near Omaha.
Those state and county militias and their snipers would be no match for a real army with tanks, planes and drones. Get real. this is 2013, not 1913. How quickly would the banks fold without the FDIC. Maybe you want keep your money in one, but doubt very many others, that is assuming that you come with a currency that someone would take in trade.
You really make NO sense......You really should stop and read your post!
How would there be an FDIC without the south???
Each new country would form their own...
Next, you act like the U.S. Military would stay in tact and the new conservative country would have to form its own....as I mentioned, the military is already mostly conservative. Just look at how they vote!
Now you're trying to say that red states (due to farmers) would not give up their subsidies.....therefore implying they would stay with the liberals??? I guess only liberals pay that huh?? You really are silly! :lol:

[newtothegame]

Of course, this is all a right wing nut pipe dream. The vast majority in every state would stay loyal to the United States. As much as they might disagree with some of the policies of the federal government, they consider themselves Americans first. There is perhaps 1 or 2 % in some states that really want to leave the union.
This is what liberal hope for..........But keeping pushing things like Obama care ...where (as you say only 1-2% are against liberal policies) and lets see where it heads...lol

[highnote]

Those state and county militias and their snipers would be no match for a real army with tanks, planes and drones.

What real army is going to invade them? A country half the size of the U.S. could afford to buy a lot of tanks, planes and drones. In fact, when the new country forms they may just take some of those tanks, drones and planes with them.

Also, there doesn't need to be violence for one population to leave a country and form their own. If the red states wanted to leave the union what's to stop them? It's their right to leave. It's not the right of the blue states to force them to stay.

We are all born with certain unalienable rights (inalienable means the same thing). One is the right to choose where we want to live and another is we choose by whom we want to be governed.

[Robert Goren]

You really make NO sense......You really should stop and read your post!
How would there be an FDIC without the south???
Each new country would form their own...
Next, you act like the U.S. Military would stay in tact and the new conservative country would have to form its own....as I mentioned, the military is already mostly conservative. Just look at how they vote!
Now you're trying to say that red states (due to farmers) would not give up their subsidies.....therefore implying they would stay with the liberals??? I guess only liberals pay that huh?? You really are silly! :lol:You really don't get it. There would still be a United States. Everything would stay the same except it would have a few less states. All the property owned by the Federal Govt in the leaving states would still be own by the United States. All the Parks, Military Bases, Buildings, etc. Any attack on them would be an act of war. A few drone attacks on the leaving states's leadership and the revolt is over.
Most members of the military will not turn traitor over politics. Most people are Americans first, conservatives or liberals second. That is another thing that the wing nuts don't get. If the country didn't split up over civil rights in the 60's, it is not going to over Obamacare now.

[Robert Goren]

What real army is going to invade them? A country half the size of the U.S. could afford to buy a lot of tanks, planes and drones. In fact, when the new country forms they may just take some of those tanks, drones and planes with them.

Also, there doesn't need to be violence for one population to leave a country and form their own. If the red states wanted to leave the union what's to stop them? It's their right to leave. It's not the right of the blue states to force them to stay.

We are all born with certain unalienable rights (inalienable means the same thing). One is the right to choose where we want to live and another is we choose by whom we want to be governed. No, it isn't. We fought a war over that and the states who want to leave lost, ending that debate once and for all. Did you flunk history in 7th grade.

[highnote]

No, it isn't. We fought a war over that and the states who want to leave lost, ending that debate once and for all. Did you flunk history in 7th grade.


You are absolutely wrong. It is an unalienable right for one group to choose to leave another group. Otherwise, it is called slavery.

No husband can force a wife to stay married to him.

Americans refused to be governed by England and left. It was their unalienable right.

When a government no longer is aligned with the needs of a people then those people are free to leave.

Secession may have costs and there may be contractual obligations to honor, but there is no ethical way to stop a people from seceding.

I did not flunk 7th grade history. I actually continued to study history and learned to look at from the side other than the victor, (i.e., the side that gets to write the textbooks).

[Robert Goren]

You are absolutely wrong. It is an unalienable right for one group to choose to leave another group. Otherwise, it is called slavery.

No husband can force a wife to stay married to him. Only recently (in my life time) anywhere. Divorce Laws have changed a lot in the last 10 years with conservatives and Some Churches fighting against changing them all the way.

Americans refused to be governed by England and left. It was their unalienable right. We had to fight a war and the French had to win one for this to happen

When a government no longer is aligned with the needs of a people then those people are free to leave. But your land is still part of the USA

Secession may have costs and there may be contractual obligations to honor, but there is no ethical way to stop a people from seceding. That depends on your Ethics

I did not flunk 7th grade history. I actually continued to study history and learned to look at from the side other than the victor, (i.e., the side that gets to write the textbooks). You seem to forget everything you should learned there. The Civil War settled most your arguments 150 years ago. You want to pretend it didn't happen. Sorry but it did.

[Greyfox]

Any talk of secession or splitting is insanity.
That the Federal Government needs a major overhaul is another question.

[Robert Goren]

Any talk of secession or splitting is insanity.
That the Federal Government needs a major overhaul is another question. You are correct

[HUSKER55]

CNN reported that 60% of the public is ready to fire them all

[highnote]

You seem to forget everything you should learned there. The Civil War settled most your arguments 150 years ago. You want to pretend it didn't happen. Sorry but it did.


You're wrong. I'm saying that there is no ETHICAL way for one group to stop another group from leaving.

The War of Northern Aggression was unethical in many respects and completely unnecessary.

Slavery ended in Brazil by 1890 and without loss of life. How many hundreds of thousands died because of the War Between the States?

Now, any moral person would agree that slavery is evil, but I'm not sure it is any more evil than killing someone.

The Civil War also set the southern states back by at least 50 or 100 years economically and developmentally and many parts of the south are still feeling the lingering effects of that war.

Imagine how much stronger the economy and institutions in the South would be had the Civil War not happened.

To reiterate, it is unethical to stop one group of people from leaving another group. The Civil War did not change that unalienable right.

[highnote]

Any talk of secession or splitting is insanity.
That the Federal Government needs a major overhaul is another question.


Many Tories (Loyalists) felt the same way about England.

Thank god insanity prevailed.

[DJofSD]

You seem to forget everything you should learned there. The Civil War settled most your arguments 150 years ago. You want to pretend it didn't happen. Sorry but it did.
Yup. One and done.

Issues are never revisited, are they.

[hcap]

You're wrong. I'm saying that there is no ETHICAL way for one group to stop another group from leaving.Nor any group to own another.

[fast4522]

the act of seceding.

[highnote]

As they say in New Hampshire, fast4522 -- "Live Free or Die".

[fast4522]

Up here in NH we will bet on anything, in the lakes region they put a cinder block on the lake and lottery the date when it falls through the ice. How about betting when the national debt taken care of with cuts to balance our budget?

[mostpost]

I keep hearing from Tom, Tucker6 and Fast and other righties here how the red states are keeping the Blue states going. As usual they are wrong.
There are fifteen states which paid more in federal taxes than they received back from the federal government. Eleven of those are blue states. California, Colorado, Minnesota, Illinois, Ohio, New York, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island and New Jersey. Those eleven states have one third the population of the United States. Four red states paid more in taxes than they received back from the feds. They are Nebraska, Texas, Arkansas, and Indiana. Those four red states have one third the population of the eleven blue states.

Of the eight states which receive the largest percentage of their tax dollars back (a ratio of 1.51 to 1 up to 3 to 1) only one, Michigan is a red state.

[sammy the sage]

ain't none of you GOT the stones YORE forefather's HAD...

just look at the TV show surviver :lol: :D ....mom's kicked daughter's ass's repeatedly... :p :D

so yeah secession AIN'T happening...

[fast4522]

They might have the stones, but it is doubtful anything works. :lol:

[BlueShoe]

That the Federal Government needs a major overhaul is another question.
Either that or else it may soon come down to two other choices:
Secession and the forming of new states and/or nations.
Insurrection and perhaps an all out Right vs. Left civil war.

[fast4522]

This is civil war, no army's but the Congress and our votes.
The United States Dollar will be worth next to nothing if we do nothing and continue to spend.

[hcap]

/1-kcQvZY8ZE?

[fast4522]

Just you and me bud, every single day so count on it. Everyone knows you could care less about America, and soon it will care even less of you because China is calling and some are not taking that lightly.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/13/imf-chief-us-dance-debt-limit-very-very-concerning/

[classhandicapper]

The thing I don't understand about the people that are against secession (either to create new cities, states, or a new country) is why you would want your vision of the world to be so compromised by people whose values and ideas are so different than yours. Whether you are left or right, you should be trying to maximize your freedom to build the city, state, country that would make you happy. Having other people ram their values or economics down your throat was never my idea of freedom or happiness.

Would you marry someone that wanted a life very different than the one you want?

Would you go into business with someone that had a very different idea about how to run it, expand it, who to hire etc..?

Compromise is good for the small insignificant things in life.

If I feel like eating Indian food, but my girlfriend hates it, then when we go out to dinner together we'll go somewhere else. But once in awhile I'll pick up some Indian food and bring it home for myself. I'll bring her something else. Easy compromise.

If I was adamant about having no kids and she wanted 5 or more kids, we wouldn't compromise and have 3. We would realize that we both want something very different in an area that's too important to compromise about. So we'd break up.

[DJofSD]

The machine needs slaves. That's why they're so against secession.

It used to be serfs working the land. Now, it's economic servitude.