Pandy on Kicking Rule

[pandy]

http://www.drf.com/news/bob-pandolfo-time-harness-racing-kick-habit

[pandy]

Kentucky had a change of heart.


http://www.harnessracing.com/news/tetricksearsfinedforredmilekicking.html

[Stillriledup]

http://www.drf.com/news/bob-pandolfo-time-harness-racing-kick-habit

Your last sentence is about mockery of the sport? Don't you think the sport is already a mockery by letting Lou Pena back into the game and not kicking out other certain trainers who cheat? Kicking is a false flag to the bigger picture, bettors could care less if a driver tries extra hard to win a bet for them with a kick, but they do care if cheaters are allowed back into the game, its disgusting.

[pandy]

Over the years Harness Racing has come down much harder on drug cheats than thoroughbred racing. There have been many trainers who got severe suspensions that were so long (in years) that they never got back into the sport.

This matter of kicking is a cheating problem and it is exclusive to harness racingt so it is important. The problem you mention is just as bad or worse in thoroughbred racing.

It's true that some bettors may not mind the kicking but most do in my opinion because it is an infraction and it isn't fair because you may bet on a horse that is kicked home one race but get beat by a kicker in another. Kicking is not popular with harness bettors. It is a violation and it looks bad.

[Stillriledup]

Over the years Harness Racing has come down much harder on drug cheats than thoroughbred racing. There have been many trainers who got severe suspensions that were so long (in years) that they never got back into the sport.

This matter of kicking is a cheating problem and it is exclusive to harness racingt so it is important. The problem you mention is just as bad or worse in thoroughbred racing.

It's true that some bettors may not mind the kicking but most do in my opinion because it is an infraction and it isn't fair because you may bet on a horse that is kicked home one race but get beat by a kicker in another. Kicking is not popular with harness bettors. It is a violation and it looks bad.

I believe that while bettors would prefer to not see animals kicked, they're really just concerned about winning their next bet first and foremost.

[pandy]

I believe that while bettors would prefer to not see animals kicked, they're really just concerned about winning their next bet first and foremost.

You don't get it. You are against trainers who you think are cheating with drugs but you don't mind cheating by kicking. It's the same thing, horsemen doing something illegal to try to win. Some bettors feel the same way about guys who drug horses, hey, they're just trying to win.

Don't get me wrong, I think that drug trainers should be arrested and punished. But any time the rules are broken it's bad for the sport. And as said, thoroughbred racing does a horrible job of dealing with its dopers, much worse than Harness Racing.

[cmp92]

It doesn't seem physically possible for a driver to kick a horse considering their position in a bike. They sit with their legs straight in the bike. So are they swinging their leg around and trying to kick a horse in the leg? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, to kick a horse running in the leg, if somebody could explain this to me that'd be great. It seems that Sears and Tetrick are dropping their foot out of the bike and the horse and their foot are touching? Again, I'm a little confused. :confused:

[Stillriledup]

You don't get it. You are against trainers who you think are cheating with drugs but you don't mind cheating by kicking. It's the same thing, horsemen doing something illegal to try to win. Some bettors feel the same way about guys who drug horses, hey, they're just trying to win.

Don't get me wrong, I think that drug trainers should be arrested and punished. But any time the rules are broken it's bad for the sport. And as said, thoroughbred racing does a horrible job of dealing with its dopers, much worse than Harness Racing.

The difference is that a kick can be seen on video and you can adjust this into your handicapping, you know which drivers kick and you know which horses have been kicked and you can use this if you want to. You can't see drugs.

[Stillriledup]

It doesn't seem physically possible for a driver to kick a horse considering their position in a bike. They sit with their legs straight in the bike. So are they swinging their leg around and trying to kick a horse in the leg? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, to kick a horse running in the leg, if somebody could explain this to me that'd be great. It seems that Sears and Tetrick are dropping their foot out of the bike and the horse and their foot are touching? Again, I'm a little confused. :confused:

These guys are incredible in the bike, they can do things back there that would amaze you, they're essentially kicking the horse in the rear end. Pandy will tell you a few drivers back in the 80s that used to use the butt end of their whips and kind of 'push' that butt end into the horse's rear, some drivers would also punch the horse's rear end, i'm not going to mention the driver, but one guy in particular did this quite often.

[pandy]

It doesn't seem physically possible for a driver to kick a horse considering their position in a bike. They sit with their legs straight in the bike. So are they swinging their leg around and trying to kick a horse in the leg? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, to kick a horse running in the leg, if somebody could explain this to me that'd be great. It seems that Sears and Tetrick are dropping their foot out of the bike and the horse and their foot are touching? Again, I'm a little confused. :confused:

They basically push their foot up against the horse's leg (hock) and some horses get scared and go faster.

[pandy]

Some drivers also whip the horse between the legs, which is a violation. But even drivers who kick don't do it all the time so it's not something that can be handicapped, or should have to be. It should always be about the horses not illegal stuff that horsemen do to try to cheat.

[wiffleball whizz]

Pandy will you be at the breeders crown?

[Just a Fan]

It doesn't seem physically possible for a driver to kick a horse considering their position in a bike. They sit with their legs straight in the bike. So are they swinging their leg around and trying to kick a horse in the leg? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, to kick a horse running in the leg, if somebody could explain this to me that'd be great. It seems that Sears and Tetrick are dropping their foot out of the bike and the horse and their foot are touching? Again, I'm a little confused. :confused:


Here is the 10/5 race at the Red Mile, where Tetrick (inside, with his right foot) and Sears (outside, using his left foot) both got fined for kicking at about the 1:50 mark of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHS5EAPW0Gs

[Stillriledup]

Some drivers also whip the horse between the legs, which is a violation. But even drivers who kick don't do it all the time so it's not something that can be handicapped, or should have to be. It should always be about the horses not illegal stuff that horsemen do to try to cheat.

If i told you i have a list of all the horses who got kicked in the last month at all harness tracks in the USA and i told you i have another list of all the horses who received the "juice" but beat the test, which list would you want?

[pandy]

Yes. Unless it's really bad weather.

[pandy]

If i told you i have a list of all the horses who got kicked in the last month at all harness tracks in the USA and i told you i have another list of all the horses who received the "juice" but beat the test, which list would you want?

I shouldn't be responding to you since you are making no sense, but okay, one last time, obviously the kicking is clear for all to see and the other scenario you suggest is not. Stop. Before you say something, think first because what you've been saying on this thread is nonsense.

[Stillriledup]

I shouldn't be responding to you since you are making no sense, but okay, one last time, obviously the kicking is clear for all to see and the other scenario you suggest is not. Stop. Before you say something, think first because what you've been saying on this thread is nonsense.

I'm making perfect sense, what have i said that isnt true?

[LottaKash]

Thru the years, there has been many a losing horse that I would've liked to have kicked....:D

Seriously tho, if the rules state that kicking or feet not in the stirrups is a penalty, then I am all for it, and the enforcing of it....Need more of it, imo...

As For Pena, if he is allowed back in at YR or any other NYS track, then that about makes a statement that severely tarnishes our beloved sport, all the more...Like saying that the powers in charge could give a Fk less about the bettors and the dollars that they were cheated out of, by this guy....

[Stillriledup]

Thru the years, there has been many a losing horse that I would've liked to have kicked....:D

Seriously tho, if the rules state that kicking or feet not in the stirrups is a penalty, then I am all for it, and the enforcing of it....Need more of it, imo...

As For Pena, if he is allowed back in at YR or any other NYS track, then that about makes a statement that severely tarnishes our beloved sport, all the more...Like saying that the powers in charge could give a Fk less about the bettors and the dollars that they were cheated out of, by this guy....

When a state's racetracks have slots, they are only worried about one thing....the slots. They don't want to be fighting lawsuits in court trying to keep someone out of a sport they can care less about.

[pandy]

When a state's racetracks have slots, they are only worried about one thing....the slots. They don't want to be fighting lawsuits in court trying to keep someone out of a sport they can care less about.


That I can agree with.

[mrroyboy]

Forgive me for stating the obvious but People are considered innocent until convicted in a court of law. If the NY supreme court decided that there was not enough evidence to convict Pena or what ever then HE IS Innocent. Sorry to disagree with you John.

[LottaKash]

Forgive me for stating the obvious but People are considered innocent until convicted in a court of law. If the NY supreme court decided that there was not enough evidence to convict Pena or what ever then HE IS Innocent. Sorry to disagree with you John.

You are right about due process Roy, and I am a firm believer in that as well...

But in Pena's case, I make an exception, just as YR and M1 have....It's like this with me Roy, how can a trainer, on a steady and ongoing basis, take a horse that is only mediocre or dull form, wake up that horse, and then improve his time from 1 to 3 seconds...?

The tracks have that right, to a ban a crook, and the supreme court is wrong, imo....Heck even the CASINOs have that right, and where is the supreme court in those matters ?....If a casino deems you a cheater, you are gone period...

On a personal level, Pena has beat me with an inferior horse on more than one occasion, and it hurt, especially when I had the best of it on form and value, and Pena had NOTHING, as in NOTHING....

[am1947]

You are right about due process Roy, and I am a firm believer in that as well...

But in Pena's case, I make an exception, just as YR and M1 have....It's like this with me Roy, how can a trainer, on a steady and ongoing basis, take a horse that is only mediocre or dull form, wake up that horse, and then improve his time from 1 to 3 seconds...?

The tracks have that right, to a ban a crook, and the supreme court is wrong, imo....Heck even the CASINOs have that right, and where is the supreme court in those matters ?....If a casino deems you a cheater, you are gone period...

On a personal level, Pena has beat me with an inferior horse on more than one occasion, and it hurt, especially when I had the best of it on form and value, and Pena had NOTHING, as in NOTHING....

LK,

I guess the plane ride from west coast to east coast is all it takes to enhance a trainers proficiency. Pena Gilberto etc.
Especially considering that there are many, many more top trainers here then Cal. to say the least. It is mind boggling that anyone who knows harness would even think they are on the up and up and could possibly improve that much that quickly! Bridge for sale if you believe that!

AM

[LottaKash]

LK,

I guess the plane ride from west coast to east coast is all it takes to enhance a trainers proficiency. Pena Gilberto etc.
Especially considering that there are many, many more top trainers here then Cal. to say the least. It is mind boggling that anyone who knows harness would even think they are on the up and up and could possibly improve that much that quickly! Bridge for sale if you believe that!

AM

Am, you are so right on this issue....It steams me sometimes when I think about it....

There have been other threads here at PA mentioning the very same premise's as you have stated....Those two guys stink on ice...

Still, we live with it, and will continue on all the ame....Gamblers, go figure...

[wilderness]

Hey Bob,
How goes it?

from your DRF article"

I don't remember ever seeing legends like Stanley Dancer, Bill Haughton or Joe O'Brien kicking horses; heck, they barely even used the whip.

Although Stanley, Billy and Joe were high on integrity, they were certainly NOT saints.

There's a famous photo of Stanley Dancer driving Henry T. Adios, where Stanley is shown reaching under the bike seat with his whip to brush the hocks of Henry T. Adios. It was a clear rule violation of that time frame, however Stanley used it on Henry T. often.

[pandy]

Interesting. Thanks Don.

[wilderness]

Forgive me for stating the obvious but People are considered innocent until convicted in a court of law. If the NY supreme court decided that there was not enough evidence to convict Pena or what ever then HE IS Innocent. Sorry to disagree with you John.

Due process was never a part of racing rules, at least until the then-State-owned Meadowlands came into existence.

Prior to the then-State-owned Meadowlands, all participants within racing were compelled to comply with the rules and/or decisions of the prospective racing commissions.
This compliance was determined in the highest courts decades ago, and before the then-State-owned Meadowlands came into being.