Which tracks would you close?

[TheEdge07]

Drf article today predicted field size in 2015 will be down to 6.Tracks need to close which ones are on your list?

My top 5

Parx
Golden Gate
Aqueduct Inner
Penn
beulah

My list is 25 total.

[andtheyreoff]

None.

IMO, if racing is going to grow a more national fanbase, racetracks have to stay open. If you closed Parx, for example, you'd be shutting off racing to the entire Philadelphia market. Close Golden Gate, and you'd lose the Bay Area. I would imagine your list contains many more places where you'd shut off entire states, let alone cities.

How are people supposed to know about horse racing and enjoy it if there's no nearby tracks? I know that if Monmouth Park didn't exist, I wouldn't be a racing fan today. People first get started, more often than not, by watching it live, not on some computer screen.

What I CAN get behind, however, is tracks reducing dates. There is no reason, for example, for Parx and Monmouth to run at the same time, considering the two tracks have similar stock. Why can't Monmouth do a Memorial Day-Labor Day schedule, and Parx would handle the rest of the year? Obviously, this would never happen, but it would work.

And, honestly, I'm not sure fewer races per day isn't a bad thing. Monmouth runs 9 race cards and most Saturdays in the summer, and I can say firsthand that these are excruciating to stay through. On U.N. day this year, there was a good crowd for most of the day, but by the big one, the place was deserted. No reason why you can't have 9 or 10 races on the weekends, and 8 or 9 on the weekdays. We'd all live. Keep in mind, too, that 8 races was the norm at many tracks for many years. Hell, even Travers day was only 10 races long as recently as 2000.

[wisconsin]

Drf article today predicted field size in 2015 will be down to 6.Tracks need to close which ones are on your list?

My top 5

Parx
Golden Gate
Aqueduct Inner
Penn
beulah

My list is 25 total.

Based on what criteria? I am guessing these are simply tracks you don't bet. Beulah shuts it's doors forever in April 2014 anyway.

[Shemp Howard]

If they closed Penn National would anyone know????

[TheEdge07]

Based on what criteria? I am guessing these are simply tracks you don't bet. Beulah shuts it's doors forever in April 2014 anyway.

No criteria i like big market tracks..

[proximity]

None.

IMO, if racing is going to grow a more national fanbase, racetracks have to stay open......

How are people supposed to know about horse racing and enjoy it if there's no nearby tracks?.........

What I CAN get behind, however, is tracks reducing dates. .......

And, honestly, I'm not sure fewer races per day isn't a bad thing......


everything this guy said, but if i could close one track (for live t-bred only) it would be colonial.

other changes i'd be in favor of are reducing/eliminating some winter dates at our mid-atlantic tracks and getting night racing at tampa or starting up birmingham or some other southern winter night circuit.

[TheEdge07]

If they closed Penn National would anyone know????


Only the ones who bet the pick 4 penn/Belmont

[CincyHorseplayer]

Using my state of Ohio as an example one of the tracks between River Downs and Thistledown should be eliminated,simply because their race dates are nearly identical.Even if states have day and night programs,if the dates are the same it still waters it down.Beulah dominantly races in the winter and a little overlap is acceptable but there are 2 shitty products going on in the summertime with River/Thistle splitting horse population.River is my hometrack but if it's for the greater good...

Anyway that's my view of it.NY has a rotating circuit and minor league track.That works.What's going on in Florida is insane,especially if Hialeah gets back in this.Retraction has to happen.What gets me is the lack of realization from tracks(or they don't give a sh**)that less is bet on smaller fields.Even a track on life support like Turfway is racing what,3 days a week,trying to keep the product bettable?

[wisconsin]

No criteria i like big market tracks..

Then you are advocating closing tracks you don't care about. That may be fine and dandy, but do you think closing small market tracks is really going to help your big market tracks? Do you really think those cheap claimers are suddenly going to run for 25k at Belmont? You will still have those same dinky 5 and 6 horse allowance races in New York and elsewhere.

[proximity]

Only the ones who bet the pick 4 penn/Belmont

pen should be the last track in the state they close. pid should never have opened and (to me) to me parx east is dragging yourself out of bed and praying that your jockey can get to the crown of the track and then stay there before falling to the rail and getting gobbled up. not a very appealing racing experience.

[TheEdge07]

Then you are advocating closing tracks you don't care about. That may be fine and dandy, but do you think closing small market tracks is really going to help your big market tracks? Do you really think those cheap claimers are suddenly going to run for 25k at Belmont? You will still have those same dinky 5 and 6 horse allowance races in New York and elsewhere.

Good point..some of those 25k running at major markets are really cheap claimers disguised by the chemist.

[Maximillion]

I wouldnt be sad to see Parx close....I see it as a waste of resources,(they dont seem to care).This could make Penn National a potentially (very) strong and viable all year meet.

I dont think we need 4 tracks in NM.......the product in this state is underated imo and a 2 track rotating schedule (focusing on fall/winter) I think could work very well if planned intelligently.

[Robert Goren]

Any track that can't survive without money from slots. Like any other business, a track should exist because it can make money or at least break even if it is non-profit. Government owned tracks should be sold to private companies. If there are no buyers, they should be closed and the land sold to developers.

[Maximillion]

Using my state of Ohio as an example one of the tracks between River Downs and Thistledown should be eliminated,simply because their race dates are nearly identical.Even if states have day and night programs,if the dates are the same it still waters it down.Beulah dominantly races in the winter and a little overlap is acceptable but there are 2 shitty products going on in the summertime with River/Thistle splitting horse population.River is my hometrack but if it's for the greater good...

Anyway that's my view of it.NY has a rotating circuit and minor league track.That works.What's going on in Florida is insane,especially if Hialeah gets back in this.Retraction has to happen.What gets me is the lack of realization from tracks(or they don't give a sh**)that less is bet on smaller fields.Even a track on life support like Turfway is racing what,3 days a week,trying to keep the product bettable?

Really a sad state of affairs down there.....Thistledowns is having there strongest meet in years in terms of quality/field size yet the signal is blacked out.
Beulah was actually playable recently with larger fields and competitive races(finally) and now goes dark til November.

[BIG49010]

Hawthorne
Turfway
Calder
Fairgrounds
Churchill - Derby week no more
Arlington - Festival in August and thats it
Fairmont
Tampa - Jan, Feb, & March only

[Zaf]

Why close tracks if they are profitable and people earn their living from them ? Sure I prefer to bet the major circuits, but why would i wish the workers at Parx, Beulah etc. to lose their livelihood ?

Z

[jballscalls]

I think it's fine to talk contraction in terms of dates, races etc, but man, as someone who works in the business (at a track some of you would say to close i'm sure) it's sure nice to read threads like this :(

I think if you take away small market tracks, you take away the chance for those fans to grow into the sport and pay attention to the big league tracks.

Living in Portland for example where there has never been professional football, people here don't really pay much attention to the NFL. Also, they've only had minor league baseball where all the players are here for maybe a year or two, so no allegiances to participants gets created. I fill in on the sports radio channel here and tried to talk baseball and people here just don't care about it at all, cause there isn't really baseball going on here (new minor league team showed up here this season). They have an NBA team so fans not only pay attention to the blazers, but they pay attention to the actual good teams and follow the NBA as a whole.

But local tracks, fans get familiar with the jockeys, trainers, horses etc and can make connections to the sport. If someone does come across the Kentucky Derby or Breeders' Cup on TV, there likely next move is to go to their local track, not go to an OTB or sign up for TS account. In the computer age this last statement might not be as true, but I've still never talked to a person, be it in person or online or chat board (i'm sure one of you will raise your hand) who's love of the sport and/or the gambling of it didn't start or grow at their local live racing track.

[jballscalls]

also, are you guys of the impression that less tracks will equal bigger fields? Less dates might, but I don't think less tracks will increase field size.

Many many tracks have numerous owners who are local owners, who like to raise and race their horses where they live. I know many owners who have said they wouldn't own horses out of town.

The horses, trainers, breeders, jockeys who can't compete at bigger tracks aren't going to move, uproot their families and take there horses where they're going to get crushed.

[Dave Schwartz]

I do not understand what is wrong with PARX.

It is one of the few tracks that offer nearly year-round racing. And (as I understand) they are making money.

Why do you want them closed?

[thespaah]

Drf article today predicted field size in 2015 will be down to 6.Tracks need to close which ones are on your list?

My top 5

Parx
Golden Gate
Aqueduct Inner
Penn
beulah

My list is 25 total.
The problem is not the number of tracks.
The problem is too many tracks in close geographic proximity operating simultaneously.
For example, Parx and Delaware..
Beulah and Turfway.
Calder and Gulfstream
Another issue is tracks in cold weather climates should not open during winter.
Although, even in the dead of winter, AQU still handles the highest percentage of off track handle. So yes, an exception would have to be made there. I say this because those dollars probably would not all find their way to Florida or California.
Another issue is year round racing. I believe it's unsustainable. Especially in light of the declining live foal counts seen in the last 10 or so years.

[JustRalph]

There are too many tracks. Plain and simple. On a Saturday in July you have forty plus tracks to choose from. Way too many. Plain and simple.

[precocity]

ALL TEXAS TRACKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[grant miller]

I live close to finger lakes, more people bet simos than live racing here--f-l said if it wasnt for slots they would close B.S. fans dont wanna bet gassed up cripples at 3/5 I,m sorry when you treat fans like crap and dont do nothing to improve racing ,why be open?

[Robert Goren]

I do not understand what is wrong with PARX.

It is one of the few tracks that offer nearly year-round racing. And (as I understand) they are making money.

Why do you want them closed?Are they really? Have they stopped diverting money from the casino to the horse racing?

[thespaah]

There are too many tracks. Plain and simple. On a Saturday in July you have forty plus tracks to choose from. Way too many. Plain and simple.
That is another problem. Racetrack managements view weekends as prime time. So they want their live cards then.
Unfortunately, the model has changed such that the vast majority of the nationwide handle is from off track sources. Plus, tacks such as GGF or BEU are going to lose the battle of handle to KY,NY and CA. So where is the logic in beating one's head against a wall and having to deal with race days where the handle is under $250k? Or even less?

[Dave Schwartz]

Are they really? Have they stopped diverting money from the casino to the horse racing?

Is that a requirement?

All I know is that PARX puts out a handicap-able product that runs many months per year. If it takes a racino to accomplish that, I am just fine with that.

Contrast that to tracks that have the racino and still have a difficult time putting together a quality betting card.

Just my opinion.

[thespaah]

I live close to finger lakes, more people bet simos than live racing here--f-l said if it wasnt for slots they would close B.S. fans dont wanna bet gassed up cripples at 3/5 I,m sorry when you treat fans like crap and dont do nothing to improve racing ,why be open?
Here's the deal. If the track surrenders it's live racing, bye bye slots.
That's like amputating an arm because of a little cut on your index finger.

[Robert Goren]

Is that a requirement?

All I know is that PARX puts out a handicap-able product that runs many months per year. If it takes a racino to accomplish that, I am just fine with that.

Contrast that to tracks that have the racino and still have a difficult time putting together a quality betting card.

Just my opinion.It is my book! You said it was profitable and I don't believe it is without the infusion of slot money. If you do some quick math comparing handles and purses, it pretty tough to see how.
As for putting a handicap-able product, I don't think it does. Too many short priced super trainer winners for my taste. Plus the takeout rates are very high. To each his own, but that is my opinion.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I think it's fine to talk contraction in terms of dates, races etc, but man, as someone who works in the business (at a track some of you would say to close i'm sure) it's sure nice to read threads like this :(

I think if you take away small market tracks, you take away the chance for those fans to grow into the sport and pay attention to the big league tracks.

Living in Portland for example where there has never been professional football, people here don't really pay much attention to the NFL. Also, they've only had minor league baseball where all the players are here for maybe a year or two, so no allegiances to participants gets created. I fill in on the sports radio channel here and tried to talk baseball and people here just don't care about it at all, cause there isn't really baseball going on here (new minor league team showed up here this season). They have an NBA team so fans not only pay attention to the blazers, but they pay attention to the actual good teams and follow the NBA as a whole.

But local tracks, fans get familiar with the jockeys, trainers, horses etc and can make connections to the sport. If someone does come across the Kentucky Derby or Breeders' Cup on TV, there likely next move is to go to their local track, not go to an OTB or sign up for TS account. In the computer age this last statement might not be as true, but I've still never talked to a person, be it in person or online or chat board (i'm sure one of you will raise your hand) who's love of the sport and/or the gambling of it didn't start or grow at their local live racing track.

Very true. It's easy for us "armchair racing experts" to look down our noses at some of the smaller venues we never play online and have "sub-standard" racing, but it's those same venues that introduce what few new fans we get to the sport each year. I've dissed Fairmount Park on this forum many times, yet I have to wonder if Fairmount hadn't existed in the 1980s would I even be a fan/player?

However, the Fairmount of today is not the same as it was back then, and the racing is not nearly as good, IMHO. I would be interested in how the local economic impact from the smaller tracks has changed over the years. I know the "anti-slots" crowd claims that the casino impact drains money from the local economy, unlike the traditional model of the local horse racing track.

[wisconsin]

The thought process that having a bunch of tracks erased from the landscape will better the sport is beyond my comprehension.

You can argue that Florida is in deep shit, but then again, the fields at both tracks on Saturday are full of runners, and again at Gulfstream on Sunday. To say Calder should just pack it in is ridiculous. The handle is suffering, to be sure, but who's call is it?

Plenty of tracks have always competed for horses. I think the bigger problem is that horse simply do not run as often as they once did.

As for the wagering aspect, I think people are kidding themselves if they think they would do better betting 12 horse allowance races or full fields of ultra-competitive high level claimers day in and day out. The cheaper horses often provide angles that you would not be seeing anywhere else, and more manipulation, which often leads to betting opportunities.

[dylbert]

Drf article today predicted field size in 2015 will be down to 6.Tracks need to close which ones are on your list?

My top 5

Parx
Golden Gate
Aqueduct Inner
Penn
beulah

My list is 25 total.
Now, back to the original premise of this thread... Which tracks would you close?

As posted so far, you have (1) major vs. minor tracks, (2) racino vs. non-racino tracks, (3) outright bias (aka personal preference) and (4) random thoughts.

A primary theme seems to be oversupply of racing. In pure economic market, this issue would resolve itself. However, racing is influenced by numerous factors which individual tracks and state jurisdictions have no control over. Example, Pennsylvania tracks versus New Jersey ones. PA tracks are racinos. Correct? NJ ones are not. This same fact plays out in my part of country too. Louisiana tracks are all racinos. Texas ones are not. First, both PA and LA subsidize racing through slots revenue. Before advent of lotteries and casinos outside Las Vegas & Atlantic City, horse racing subsidized many state and local governments. Now, gaming support horse racing in many, many states. Horses and breeding create jobs. Politicians like jobs because jobs create tax revenue.

I have first-hand knowledge that one of the Louisiana racinos would like to cut its dates back from 80-something dates to about 50 dates. Create boutique meet with higher purses, larger fields, and bigger handle. Why can't it happen? You cannot risk losing casino license as it is 'goose that lays the golden egg' every day. Also, Louisiana requires three state-bred races each race day. 30 fewer dates times 3 races per day yields 90 fewer horseman opportunities. Again, this is complex issue with many, many drivers. No, I don't have answers. And, I doubt that simple solution will arrive quickly, easily, or cheaply to horse racing industry.

Final item, this link is to HANA list of tracks by exotic pools per race. Most of the top half tracks (about 35-40) will likely survive. Hollywood will disappear, however, its dates will get redistributed. Very bottom tracks are ones that would appear most vulnerable in my opinion. http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/hanatrackratingsbyexoticpoolsize2013.html

[raybo]

ALL TEXAS TRACKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm thinking that they will dry and blow away on their own, with the loss of a significant amount of wagering dollars from Texas residents who live too far from the one thoroughbred track running at any point in time. We have 3 thoroughbred tracks in this huge state, and only one has live thoroughbred racing during that time period. Sure you can go to any of the 3 Texas tracks and wager on other tracks via simulcasting, but that still leaves out all the people who live too far from a track to visit daily/weekly/monthly.

Nationally, I think there should be a reduction in the number of races daily, and races should be carded such that a minimum number of entries, per race, is possible, as an example: a minimum of 8 entries or a race is not carded. Scratches from races should be strictly monitored such that there must be a "viable" reason for the scratch, or the trainer/owner faces the loss of at least a portion of their entry fee if they scratch their horse. Of course, if there is a viable reason for scratching a horse then no penalty is assessed.

Just speaking off the top of my head, but if racing is to grow, and be competitive, everyone needs convenient access to it, whether on-track for local residents, or online/OTB for non-local residents. Of course, I favor individual state run/regulated ADWs for nationwide wagering so the state gets a piece of every wagered dollar from it's own residents. The state not receiving it's share on wagers placed by Texas residents is the only viable supporting item, IMO, for what Texas is doing by illegalizing online wagering by Texas residents, and we don't have OTBs here, at least none I've heard of anyway. :confused:

I don't necessarily support the forced closing of any track, because the local residents/businesses/horsemen/workers/staff would be unfairly punished. Fewer races, whether as a result of fewer racing dates or fewer races per card, seems to be logical, at least to me anyway.

Lots of questions to be asked and answered, that's for sure.

[JohnGalt1]

The tracks many of you want to close run $3-10,000 claimers.

And to those who want to see horses run more often, these are the class of horse that runs every three weeks.

[Maximillion]

Is that a requirement?

All I know is that PARX puts out a handicap-able product that runs many months per year. If it takes a racino to accomplish that, I am just fine with that.

Contrast that to tracks that have the racino and still have a difficult time putting together a quality betting card.

Just my opinion.

Its frustrating for me handicapping a 7 horse field with 5 of them coming off claims.
I know others can excel under these circumstances, but I know I cant,I prefer to handicap horses.
Add in the fact that its unclear whether they even employ a track maintenance man and it all adds up to a complete mess (for me) and imo not a quality betting card.

[nearco]

You don't need less tracks. But you probably could do with less racing at many tracks.
Closing tracks makes racing less accessible to the public. Way to popularize the sport.
However, many tracks probably don't need to be racing 5 days a week.

[Track Phantom]

It might not take contraction.

How about partnerships between tracks?

For example, Canterbury Park and Prairie Meadows (about 3.5 hours apart) have some overlap in racing. How about they write races for IA and MN breds? How about trial races for MN breds at CBY and IA breds at PRM and the top 5 qualifiers for each race in the big "cornfield championship" for state championship rights? Each track can host switching each year.

Both tracks can coordinate schedules for day/night racing so as to have as little overlap as possible.

Maybe offer incentives to trainers/owners who have won a race at both tracks during the year.


Basically, instead of each geographically located region compete against each other, find ways to coordinate the product with post times, race dates, races written, etc and maybe you can get a bigger participation in the region and keep the horses and fans.

Years ago, I used to love playing the SA / GG cards since they were spaced perfectly to go from one to the other. I wouldn't look at other tracks.

Just a thought.

[therussmeister]

The whole problem with threads like these, (Including the occasional "I'm looking for a new track to play" thread) is one handicapper's cup of tea is another handicapper's cup of bile. The whole thing is a pointless exercise. Yet I always read them. :bang:

[raybo]

Probably true, however, isn't the idea to grow a game that is dying? If so, then why on earth would anyone force the closure of any track? Don't we need more exposure, not less? If this thread is all about those of us who have been around for a while, and making us happy, then it's a different story. But, if we want younger/new people in the game, then they need easy access to the product. If the nearest track is 2 or 3 hours (or more) away, how many times per year will a new player want to make that trip, if ever? For those who live where there are tracks/OTBs close by, and ADWs to choose from, it may be a non-issue, but for many others it is the difference between giving the game a shot, or not.

[JackS]

I think more tracks should consider late afternoon racing. OBVIOUSLY IT DOES WORK considering the few that actually run their race cards between 5-9 pm. My opinion is based on the fact that the majority of the population is working daytime and can't attend even if they wanted to. Also it was my impression that QH racing at Los Al has a bigger handle then the TB's( live and simulcast )that run earlier in the day. I understand that many owners and trainers do not like the" later in the day" plans that a very few tracks now employ.
Isn't it possible that these guys might profit from a little re-education?
At minimum ,a study of the profit/non profit of such tracks that actually do employ late afternoon racing.

[thespaah]

It might not take contraction.

How about partnerships between tracks?

For example, Canterbury Park and Prairie Meadows (about 3.5 hours apart) have some overlap in racing. How about they write races for IA and MN breds? How about trial races for MN breds at CBY and IA breds at PRM and the top 5 qualifiers for each race in the big "cornfield championship" for state championship rights? Each track can host switching each year.

Both tracks can coordinate schedules for day/night racing so as to have as little overlap as possible.

Maybe offer incentives to trainers/owners who have won a race at both tracks during the year.


Basically, instead of each geographically located region compete against each other, find ways to coordinate the product with post times, race dates, races written, etc and maybe you can get a bigger participation in the region and keep the horses and fans.

Years ago, I used to love playing the SA / GG cards since they were spaced perfectly to go from one to the other. I wouldn't look at other tracks.

Just a thought.
IMO one of racing's main problems is the lack of mutual cooperation among racing jurisdictions.

[Valuist]

Hawthorne
Turfway
Calder
Fairgrounds
Churchill - Derby week no more
Arlington - Festival in August and thats it
Fairmont
Tampa - Jan, Feb, & March only

So you basically want a couple days for the entire year for the 3rd biggest market in the US? And why the Fair Grounds? Certainly one of the bigger winter tracks around.

[raybo]

I think more tracks should consider late afternoon racing. OBVIOUSLY IT DOES WORK considering the few that actually run their race cards between 5-9 pm. My opinion is based on the fact that the majority of the population is working daytime and can't attend even if they wanted to. Also it was my impression that QH racing at Los Al has a bigger handle then the TB's( live and simulcast )that run earlier in the day. I understand that many owners and trainers do not like the" later in the day" plans that a very few tracks now employ.
Isn't it possible that these guys might profit from a little re-education?
At minimum ,a study of the profit/non profit of such tracks that actually do employ late afternoon racing.

I agree and have always wondered why tracks, and other entertainment companies, operate primarily during work hours on weekdays. I, maybe, can see the reason for afternoon racing on Saturday and Sunday, but hard to understand the reasoning, from a track's perspective, on weekdays.

This is a multifaceted problem however, when you include the 4 time zones into the mix, and competing tracks' post time conflicts between daytime and evening/night racing. Quite a complex situation for sure.

[raybo]

So you basically want a couple days for the entire year for the 3rd biggest market in the US? And why the Fair Grounds? Certainly one of the bigger winter tracks around.

And no Derby week? Isn't this one of the big exposure periods for racing? Many people do not even think about racing until the Derby approaches. :bang:

[ultracapper]

IMO one of racing's main problems is the lack of mutual cooperation among racing jurisdictions.

Here, here. Racing really needs top end management and cooperation. I've always thought a minor league/major league kind of arrangement would work best. Smaller tracks offering massive amounts of N2L, N3L, and N4L opportunities with decent purses, allowing horses to work through conditions and develop. Trainer coordination so that when a horse works it's way through conditions at a place like Emerald Downs or Turf Paradise can then be transfered to trainers in Nocal or Socal, depending on level of accomplishment. I've thought even putting lifetime win conditions on overnight stakes races would be conducive in an arrangement like this.

[JimG]

Stop propping up horse racing with other forms of gambling and subsidies and let each track stand on its own. Either make the racing product work or shut your doors.

[badcompany]

Saratoga.

[raybo]

Stop propping up horse racing with other forms of gambling and subsidies and let each track stand on its own. Either make the racing product work or shut your doors.

What tracks would be left?

[JimG]

What tracks would be left?

No idea. If they cannot run a race track profitably, it's time to get out of business. Management should not be retained when they cannot show a profit. Perhaps they would get decent management and/or grow the business if there was a real sense of urgency.

If horse racing's time has passed so be it. However, I think there are still enough customers out there to attract to their product if it is priced competitively and a fun, good deal for the consumer (gambler).

[raybo]

No idea. If they cannot run a race track profitably, it's time to get out of business. Management should not be retained when they cannot show a profit. Perhaps they would get decent management and/or grow the business if there was a real sense of urgency.

If horse racing's time has passed so be it. However, I think there are still enough customers out there to attract to their product if it is priced competitively and a fun, good deal for the consumer (gambler).

I think that the consultants these management groups are hiring, if they're even hiring consultants, need to be fired. On the other hand, if management is doing their own consulting then management needs to be fired. But, to close the tracks, IMO, is not the answer.

[Shemp Howard]

According to the PA Gambling Commission report for 2012, 16% of the purse money at its tracks were generated from the on and off-track betting handle; the balance subsidized by slot machine losers.

So the $200K ave daily purse structure @Penn would drop to $35K a night or $4,500 a race if it has to go it alone in the marketplace.

You only live once, on beans and more beans, at those numbers.

[badcompany]

According to the PA Gambling Commission report for 2012, 16% of the purse money at its tracks were generated from the on and off-track betting handle; the balance subsidized by slot machine losers.

So the $200K ave daily purse structure @Penn would drop to $35K a night or $4,500 a race if it has to go it alone in the marketplace.

You only live once, on beans and more beans, at those numbers.

At Saratoga Harness, on Saturdays, the purses total 90-100k, and the handle is about 250k.

Easy to see why the horsemen are hated, there.

[nat1223]

penn
charles town

[classhandicapper]

Stop propping up horse racing with other forms of gambling and subsidies and let each track stand on its own. Either make the racing product work or shut your doors.

I agree with this.

When the weak collapse, the strong will get even stronger because handle will move to them instead and the industry will get healthier.

I think the title of this thread should have been "Which Tracks Should Remain Open?"

It would be a much shorter list.

[thespaah]

Stop propping up horse racing with other forms of gambling and subsidies and let each track stand on its own. Either make the racing product work or shut your doors.
Ok...Then the task is for horse racing to compete with casino style gambling which is in 40 states.
It's no contest. There would be about 10 tracks left in the US..
Three in KY. Three in NY. One in NJ hanging on by a mere thread.
And two in CA..
Oh the ones in Texas have been doomed by the TX Legislature. No OTB's. No ADW money Weeknights where handle is under $100k..Not good.
There has to be a better solution that just 'cutting them off'..

[thespaah]

I agree with this.

When the weak collapse, the strong will get even stronger because handle will move to them instead and the industry will get healthier.

I think the title of this thread should have been "Which Tracks Should Remain Open?"

It would be a much shorter list.
I think the OP's view is narrow minded and simplistic.
Ask yourself this...Just what would happen to the breeding industry if breeders have full knowledge there would be a perhaps 80% loss of racing facilities?
I will take a stab. Breeders would reduce their output of foals. Some may even go out of business.
Without an adequate supply of racing stock, what happens then?

[Scanman]

None, but if I had to...:

Beulah
Thistledown
Aqueduct
Pimlico
Calder
Hawthorne

[wisconsin]

None, but if I had to...:

Beulah
Thistledown
Aqueduct
Pimlico
Calder
Hawthorne


If you had to, why these? Don't people know that Beulah is closing in April anyway?

[BlueShoe]

I think more tracks should consider late afternoon racing.
Run a 4 day week Friday thru Monday with an 8-10-10-8 race schedule. First post on Friday and Monday 3:00 PM or perhaps 4:00 PM if you can be finished by sunset. 8 or 9 races on Friday and Monday. 1:00 PM start on Saturday and Sunday with 10 or 11 races. Workers getting off on Fridays could come out and catch most of the card. Same on Mondays, also there are people that work a Tuesday thru Saturday work schedule and have Monday off.

[TheEdge07]

I think more tracks should consider late afternoon racing. OBVIOUSLY IT DOES WORK considering the few that actually run their race cards between 5-9 pm. My opinion is based on the fact that the majority of the population is working daytime and can't attend even if they wanted to. Also it was my impression that QH racing at Los Al has a bigger handle then the TB's( live and simulcast )that run earlier in the day. I understand that many owners and trainers do not like the" later in the day" plans that a very few tracks now employ.
Isn't it possible that these guys might profit from a little re-education?
At minimum ,a study of the profit/non profit of such tracks that actually do employ late afternoon racing.

Been sayin this for years change the post time -late afternoon.

[Robert Goren]

According to the PA Gambling Commission report for 2012, 16% of the purse money at its tracks were generated from the on and off-track betting handle; the balance subsidized by slot machine losers.

So the $200K ave daily purse structure @Penn would drop to $35K a night or $4,500 a race if it has to go it alone in the marketplace.

You only live once, on beans and more beans, at those numbers.Thanks for that info. It surprises me that it is that low. Clearly nobody there is going to care one iota about horse bettor.

[Scanman]

If you had to, why these? Don't people know that Beulah is closing in April anyway?

Beulah - Yeah, I heard there was talk of them closing, but I haven't really kept up with it. Was a deplorable looking facility when I visited, though it was some time ago. Ohio racing is third tier and their horses could easily be absorbed at Mountaineer.

Thistledown - The plant has no redeeming attributes and is simply a betting factory. It takes away from the product at Presque Isle Downs. Same comment about Ohio racing; the better horses, which would be few could go to PID, the rest could go to Finger Lakes or Mountaineer.

Hawthorne - It's in the hood. Why would anyone want to go there. Plus, there is a lovely view of chemical plants or refineries in the distance. Another betting factory, just better off extending Arlington's meet.

Aqueduct - You just don't need two tracks in NYC. It's a bit of a dump as well.

Pimlico - Another "hood" track. Definitely no longer worthy of the Preakness. Just as well to move it to Laurel. Just race between there and Colonial; and of course Timonium.

Calder - Not quite a "hood" track, but getting there. Gulfstream is going to kill them soon enough, just like the bastards closed Hialeah. I'd rather see them get Hialeah going again (for thoroughbreds) and split the dates with Gulfstream.

[appistappis]

After the gov't announcements today it looks like ft erie is finally done.

[nijinski]

Los AL

[tanner12oz]

Calder..will Rogers...fairmount..beaulah..thistleriver or whatever it is...laurel..sunland...parx..d

[tanner12oz]

Most of the tracks named here operate as if they are closed already...certain whole states seem to not be able to get horseracing right...ohio is the worst offender imo

[craigbraddick]

Thistledown - The plant has no redeeming attributes and is simply a betting factory. It takes away from the product at Presque Isle Downs. Same comment about Ohio racing; the better horses, which would be few could go to PID, the rest could go to Finger Lakes or Mountaineer.

Strongly disagree. Have you been there lately?

If not, drop me an IM and I will show you first hand the changes.

Craig

[davew]

I would close every track I own that is losing money with no forseeable chance of profit -> no track closures by me:D

[Shemp Howard]

On track handle for today' s Meadowlands all turf card was less than $70K.

[Pensacola Pete]

Year 1: Shut down every track that can't handle at least $500k per day.

That will get rid of all of the small tracks. The others will absorb horses from the closed tracks, field sizes will get bigger, and average handle should increase.

Year 2: Shut down every track that can't average $750k per card.

That will get rid of a few more, and the horses will be absorbed as above and average handle increase on the rest.

Year 3: Shut down every track that can't average $1 mil per card.

If after getting rid of over half of the tracks, the rest can't fill most fields and take up the slack for a million per, they shouldn't be open.

[jballscalls]

Year 1: Shut down every track that can't handle at least $500k per day.

That will get rid of all of the small tracks. The others will absorb horses from the closed tracks, field sizes will get bigger, and average handle should increase.

Year 2: Shut down every track that can't average $750k per card.

That will get rid of a few more, and the horses will be absorbed as above and average handle increase on the rest.

Year 3: Shut down every track that can't average $1 mil per card.

If after getting rid of over half of the tracks, the rest can't fill most fields and take up the slack for a million per, they shouldn't be open.

You honestly think the horses from the smaller/low handle tracks can compete with the horses at the bigger tracks? They won't be absorbed, they'll be out of the game. trainers/owners aren't going to go somewhere they can't win. They'll go busted way to quickly. The smaller groups can't afford to compete with the majors. Field size wouldn't increase much at all with your ideas IMO.

[proximity]

You only live once, on beans and more beans, at those numbers.

a little time on this diet wouldn't hurt a few people there....:)

[JustRalph]

You honestly think the horses from the smaller/low handle tracks can compete with the horses at the bigger tracks? They won't be absorbed, they'll be out of the game. trainers/owners aren't going to go somewhere they can't win. They'll go busted way to quickly. The smaller groups can't afford to compete with the majors. Field size wouldn't increase much at all with your ideas IMO.

So be it. As long as some of the handle moves......

[Pensacola Pete]

You honestly think the horses from the smaller/low handle tracks can compete with the horses at the bigger tracks? They won't be absorbed, they'll be out of the game. trainers/owners aren't going to go somewhere they can't win. They'll go busted way to quickly. The smaller groups can't afford to compete with the majors. Field size wouldn't increase much at all with your ideas IMO.

The best from the small tracks will be competitive with the lower echelons at the bigger tracks. The ones that can't are eliminated. Horses and horsemen. There will be more horses per track. The tracks will need to card races to accommodate what's there. Some horses will get kicked upstairs.

It's going to happen the easy way or the hard way. It's a matter of time before decoupling begins with the racinos.

[tanner12oz]

You honestly think the horses from the smaller/low handle tracks can compete with the horses at the bigger tracks? They won't be absorbed, they'll be out of the game. trainers/owners aren't going to go somewhere they can't win. They'll go busted way to quickly. The smaller groups can't afford to compete with the majors. Field size wouldn't increase much at all with your ideas IMO.

I think the fair circuit should be used for on the east coast and Midwest...would create opportunity for the little guy without commuting us to 6 month meets with 2 weeks of quality

[linrom1]

Rather than closing racetracks, close the casinos outside of Reno, Las Vegas and Atlantic City and send Stronach to Bellevue.

Alternatively tax casinos at 75% and split the proceeds between ACA and racetracks to augment pursues. :jump:

[ronsmac]

Parx,Deleware and Monmouth shouldn't be all running at the same time.

[Scanman]

Thistledown - The plant has no redeeming attributes and is simply a betting factory. It takes away from the product at Presque Isle Downs. Same comment about Ohio racing; the better horses, which would be few could go to PID, the rest could go to Finger Lakes or Mountaineer.

Strongly disagree. Have you been there lately?

If not, drop me an IM and I will show you first hand the changes.

Craig
No, it's been a while. What are the redeeming attributes? Please tell me why I should visit Thistledown again. Perhaps, I will give them another look.

[craigbraddick]

No, it's been a while. What are the redeeming attributes? Please tell me why I should visit Thistledown again. Perhaps, I will give them another look.

A brand new fourth floor wagering area, new food and drink outlets, field sizes 1.4 highe per race than last year and often having double figure fields, increased purse money. more competitive racing.

Craig

[badcompany]

The best from the small tracks will be competitive with the lower echelons at the bigger tracks. The ones that can't are eliminated. Horses and horsemen. There will be more horses per track. The tracks will need to card races to accommodate what's there. Some horses will get kicked upstairs.

It's going to happen the easy way or the hard way. It's a matter of time before decoupling begins with the racinos.

People assume these Racinos will be wildly popular and profitable forever, when, in reality, their business model is already obsolete. The infrastructure is unnecessary, as these games can just as easily be played at home or on an IPad.

Pretty soon, the slots end is gonna have to worry about its own survival, much less that of horseracing.

[jballscalls]

So be it. As long as some of the handle moves......

Well you're not getting any of mine :)

[thespaah]

Rather than closing racetracks, close the casinos outside of Reno, Las Vegas and Atlantic City and send Stronach to Bellevue.

Alternatively tax casinos at 75% and split the proceeds between ACA and racetracks to augment pursues. :jump:
You'll never shove that genie back into the bottle

[thespaah]

Parx,Deleware and Monmouth shouldn't be all running at the same time.
#:1: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Tall One]

Parx,Deleware and Monmouth shouldn't be all running at the same time.



Agreed. They need to get tracks on a better schedule across the US.

Winter rolls around up north, close them for a few weeks/couple months. As much as I enjoy playing the inner dirt, close Aqueduct after December, re-open in March.

Same as Turfway(who, btw, is struggling and that's being nice.) They should get 3 months of live racing a year...AT BEST.

Ellis, let them run for 4-5 weeks like normal, but competing against Saratoga kills them.

[Scanman]

A brand new fourth floor wagering area, new food and drink outlets, field sizes 1.4 highe per race than last year and often having double figure fields, increased purse money. more competitive racing.

Craig
Sorry Craig, you didn't convince me. My involvement in racing is not so much as a gambler, but as a racegoer. Sure, I enjoy a punt, but it's not the end all/be all of why I go racing. All the points you listed highlight the gambling aspect of racing, so my original comments stand.