Steelers & Giants

[Valuist]

Funny how these two franchises have been similar in the past 10 years. Both drafted their franchise QB in the same year; both have since won two Super Bowls. And now both are bad teams. In the Giants case, a terrible team.

When you can't run the ball, and end up on the wrong end of the turnover battle, you won't win. It may be a passing league but one dimensional play is a quick way to lose games. Atlanta has found that out this year, as well.

The Giants are 31st in running the ball and the Steelers are 32nd. Pittsburgh may have some hope, with rookie Bell back after being hurt. Its clear Coughlin has no confidence in David Wilson. The Steelers are 31st in turnover margin at minus 11 and the Giants are 32nd at minus 13. I don't care how good the Giants WRs are; throw 3 picks a game and you won't win.

Of the two, I think the Steelers will end up with a better record. I prefer Ben over Eli, and I think the players are more likely to quit on Coughlin than on Tomlin. But until both teams improve their play in the trenches, they aren't going to win many games.

[Robert Fischer]

Steelers have really bad coaching and roster-decisions.

They have handicapped Ben Roethlisberger by not giving him a Matchup-Problem TE, or a #1WR.

That is inexcusable. We play in a passing-dominated league, in a copycat league, and the best player is a proven passing QB, yet the Steelers fail to provide that QB with the 2 most valuable receiving targets that a passing QB can have ?? :D

There are other problems, but this example speaks volumes.

[Bettowin]

Pittsburgh has Todd Haley and that might just push them behind the Giants. I'm surprised Big Ben hasn't punched him yet.

[Robert Fischer]

Pittsburgh has Todd Haley and that might just push them behind the Giants. I'm surprised Big Ben hasn't punched him yet.
Yes.

[Stillriledup]

Funny thing about this game is that one degree of "bad" might be another degree of "bad". No proof the Steelers wont just stomp the Giants by double digits...its possible that the Jags are even better than the Giants, we have no proof either way. I dont know how bad the Steelers are, but at this point, it seems like the G men might go 0-16, i'm not sure who they can beat.

[Bettowin]

Funny thing about this game is that one degree of "bad" might be another degree of "bad". No proof the Steelers wont just stomp the Giants by double digits...its possible that the Jags are even better than the Giants, we have no proof either way. I dont know how bad the Steelers are, but at this point, it seems like the G men might go 0-16, i'm not sure who they can beat.

They should change the schedule and make then play each other this year.

[Robert Goren]

Two shining examples of how front offices can screw over good coaches. Both of these teams have bad offensive lines and have had for several years. The Steelers are a better team right now for what it is worth. On David Wilson, just as he was getting out of the dog house, he got hurt last Sunday.

[Clocker]

the G men might go 0-16, i'm not sure who they can beat.

There was a story on the web today about a strip club in NYC that no longer has Giants games on the TV because it depresses the fans too much. The tips for the dancers go way down when the Giants are playing.

[Valuist]

Steelers have really bad coaching and roster-decisions.

They have handicapped Ben Roethlisberger by not giving him a Matchup-Problem TE, or a #1WR.

That is inexcusable. We play in a passing-dominated league, in a copycat league, and the best player is a proven passing QB, yet the Steelers fail to provide that QB with the 2 most valuable receiving targets that a passing QB can have ?? :D

There are other problems, but this example speaks volumes.

The Steelers had Mike Wallace last year, who I consider a decent, but not great receiver. He can stretch a defense, and he can drop a pass right in his hands. Antonio Brown is a #2 receiver posing as a #1. Sanders should be a 3rd option. No Heath Miller is not Jimmy Graham but other than Gronk, nobody else is either. He at least is a good receiver who can move the chains. The Steelers need to establish the run, which they haven't been able to do, just like the Giants and Falcons. And not being able to run could very well bite New Orleans in the butt come playoff time.

The Steelers haven't looked anywhere as bad as the Giants IMO. The final in the Bears game was misleading because it was a 27-23 game fairly late. 2 late TD made it look like a blowout.

[Robert Fischer]

No Heath Miller is not Jimmy Graham but other than Gronk, nobody else is either.

Saints - Graham
Pats - Gronk
Broncos - Julius Thomas
Falcons - Tony Gonzales
Chargers - Antonio Gates
49ers - Vernon Davis
Packers -Jermichael Finley
Bears - Martellus Bennett
Bengals - Jermaine Gresham


- Matchup-Problem TEs
I know that technically only 2 of these guys are Graham and Gronk, but you get the point.

Most of the top offenses have one. Most of the offenses that have been built around a QB also have one.

[cj's dad]

Funny how Big Ben an Eli were rated above Flacco by many here and at this point both of them stink: ravens are tied for 1st while the other 2 are winless.

[tucker6]

Steelers have really bad coaching and roster-decisions.

They have handicapped Ben Roethlisberger by not giving him a Matchup-Problem TE, or a #1WR.

That is inexcusable. We play in a passing-dominated league, in a copycat league, and the best player is a proven passing QB, yet the Steelers fail to provide that QB with the 2 most valuable receiving targets that a passing QB can have ?? :D

There are other problems, but this example speaks volumes.
excellent post about the offensive side of the ball.

The Rooney's have some fault here as well by insisting that they can defy gravity and continue to be a run oriented team in a league where the rules increasing slant play toward the pass. If the GM Colbert isn't fired at year's end, then I know we will be bad for years to come. His drafts (and Tomlin's) have been below average for several years now and it is showing up on game day. I don't believe Tomlin is coaching the talent up either, and have thought that even when he won a SB. He should give his ring to Cowher.

[tucker6]

Funny how Big Ben an Eli were rated above Flacco by many here and at this point both of them stink: ravens are tied for 1st while the other 2 are winless.
I would take Ben and Eli over Flacco every day of the week and twice on Sundays. As this thread attests to, there are many things that go into the W/L record, and it starts with philosophy, drafting, and coaching.

Have fun eating Joe's contract under the salary cap hell you'll find yourself shortly. :D

[cj's dad]

I would take Ben and Eli over Flacco every day of the week and twice on Sundays. As this thread attests to, there are many things that go into the W/L record, and it starts with philosophy, drafting, and coaching.

Have fun eating Joe's contract under the salary cap hell you'll find yourself shortly. :D

Not this year or next or next. Contract is back loaded, but I'm sure you knew that

[Valuist]

Saints - Graham
Pats - Gronk
Broncos - Julius Thomas
Falcons - Tony Gonzales
Chargers - Antonio Gates
49ers - Vernon Davis
Packers -Jermichael Finley
Bears - Martellus Bennett
Bengals - Jermaine Gresham


- Matchup-Problem TEs
I know that technically only 2 of these guys are Graham and Gronk, but you get the point.

Most of the top offenses have one. Most of the offenses that have been built around a QB also have one.



I don't think I'd lump Gresham or Finley in there. Both are physically gifted, and look like big WRs. Finley drops way too many passes. I know; I had him on my fantasy team last year and what a disappointment he was. Not sure why Gresham hasn't performed better; might be on Andy Dalton.

Heath Miller is an average TE. He's not upper level but he does have good hands to move the chains. Heath Miller is clearly not the reason why the Steelers are 0-4.

[Valuist]

Funny how Big Ben an Eli were rated above Flacco by many here and at this point both of them stink: ravens are tied for 1st while the other 2 are winless.

I've got news for you: Flacco stinks this season and arguably has been worse than Ben:

Flacco 70.1 QB rating (28th in the league) 5 TD 8 INT
Roethlisberger 85 QB rating (17th in the league) 5 TD 5 INT

Their receivers are pretty much a wash. But Flacco has a top tier RB in Ray Rice while Ben has what, Jonathon Dwyer and LeVeon Bell?

[Robert Goren]

Saints - Graham
Pats - Gronk
Broncos - Julius Thomas
Falcons - Tony Gonzales
Chargers - Antonio Gates
49ers - Vernon Davis
Packers -Jermichael Finley
Bears - Martellus Bennett
Bengals - Jermaine Gresham


- Matchup-Problem TEs
I know that technically only 2 of these guys are Graham and Gronk, but you get the point.

Most of the top offenses have one. Most of the offenses that have been built around a QB also have one.

The Browns's Jordon Cameron is better than several of those tight ends.

[Valuist]

The Browns's Jordon Cameron is better than several of those tight ends.
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Agreed.

And while we are talking about the Browns, if they had just a replacement level QB, they'd be the best team in that division.

[Robert Goren]

I've got news for you: Flacco stinks this season and arguably has been worse than Ben:

Flacco 70.1 QB rating (28th in the league) 5 TD 8 INT
Roethlisberger 85 QB rating (17th in the league) 5 TD 5 INT

Their receivers are pretty much a wash. But Flacco has a top tier RB in Ray Rice while Ben has what, Jonathon Dwyer and LeVeon Bell?They both have the same problem, an offensive line that is terrible.

[cj's dad]

They both have the same problem, an offensive line that is terrible.

You nailed it.

[Rise Over Run]

I've got news for you: Flacco stinks this season and arguably has been worse than Ben:

Flacco 70.1 QB rating (28th in the league) 5 TD 8 INT
Roethlisberger 85 QB rating (17th in the league) 5 TD 5 INT

Their receivers are pretty much a wash. But Flacco has a top tier RB in Ray Rice while Ben has what, Jonathon Dwyer and LeVeon Bell?


0-4

[cj's dad]

They both have the same problem, an offensive line that is terrible.

I just checked out what I thought was correct. In the last 5 years that Flacco has been QB, not ONE of his O linemen have made the pro bowl. Only 1 has been a reserve and 2 have been alternates. I'm telling you that this guy has never had decent protection in the years he has played including this year, which may be the worst. Hell, even Ray Rice can't find any running room.

[Valuist]

0-4

And that's all on Roethlisberger? The fact is, QBs get too much credit when a team wins, and too much blame when they lose. The biggest reaspn why the Steelers are 0-4? Turnovers forced by their defense? ZERO.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't think I'd lump Gresham or Finley in there. Both are physically gifted, and look like big WRs. Finley drops way too many passes. I know; I had him on my fantasy team last year and what a disappointment he was. Not sure why Gresham hasn't performed better; might be on Andy Dalton.

Heath Miller is an average TE. He's not upper level but he does have good hands to move the chains. Heath Miller is clearly not the reason why the Steelers are 0-4.

Heath Miller is GOOD. He's a complete player who does everything well. He has great chemistry with the QB and is a fan favorite.
He just doesn't scare defensive coordinators, and he also is a $6.5M salary cap hit , and a $9.5M next year.


Miller is not the problem, but the lack of recieving weapons is a great example of the problems with personnel and coaching.

[Valuist]

A moral victory for the Giants, who actually looked like an NFL team tonight. Granted Eli was typical of 2013 Eli, throwing 3 picks including a TD pass to the Bears' defense. Minus 3 in turnovers and they actually covered a pointspread for the first time in 2013. Jacobs did a good job getting their running game going, which had not happened at all in 2013 before tonight.

Finally a cover (albeit a straight up loss) that could foreshadow an actual real win. They get 4 extra days rest, and get a Monday Night home game against a Viking team who's collecting mediocre QBs. The Vikings have the Packers the week following their game vs the Giants.

[Robert Goren]

The bears defense looked bad. A team with any sort of running game is going to have them for breakfast. I am sure the Giants will win a game some time this year, but it is hard to figure out when. They stink on both sides of the ball. There isn't much talent in either line. Hard to win with that problem.

[newtothegame]

A moral victory for the Giants, who actually looked like an NFL team tonight. Granted Eli was typical of 2013 Eli, throwing 3 picks including a TD pass to the Bears' defense. Minus 3 in turnovers and they actually covered a pointspread for the first time in 2013. Jacobs did a good job getting their running game going, which had not happened at all in 2013 before tonight.

Finally a cover (albeit a straight up loss) that could foreshadow an actual real win. They get 4 extra days rest, and get a Monday Night home game against a Viking team who's collecting mediocre QBs. The Vikings have the Packers the week following their game vs the Giants.
Valu, I like the thought process but at what point do players "pack it in"?
0-6???
Now I know a coughlin led team is not likely to pack it in but, you have to wonder how much the players will "put on the line risking it all" for how many wins this season???

Just saying

[Valuist]

Valu, I like the thought process but at what point do players "pack it in"?
0-6???
Now I know a coughlin led team is not likely to pack it in but, you have to wonder how much the players will "put on the line risking it all" for how many wins this season???

Just saying

It could happen but guys still get paid for their production. We'll have to see but no sign of quit last night. Even as a Bears fan, I realize that if you take the INTs away, the Giants probably win that game. Not easy to win a quick turnaround game on the road, unless you have a big class advantage.

[Valuist]

The bears defense looked bad. A team with any sort of running game is going to have them for breakfast. I am sure the Giants will win a game some time this year, but it is hard to figure out when. They stink on both sides of the ball. There isn't much talent in either line. Hard to win with that problem.

The Bears defense did look bad. Jacobs looked like a solid RB, and its been several years since that happened. For the Bears, All Pro DT Melton is out for the year, All Pro CB Charles Tillman was out. Peppers is getting old and hasn't been the same player. Every single opponent has averaged over 5 yards/play on them. The turnovers are the only redeeming quality for that D.

[Robert Goren]

It could happen but guys still get paid for their production. We'll have to see but no sign of quit last night. Even as a Bears fan, I realize that if you take the INTs away, the Giants probably win that game. Not easy to win a quick turnaround game on the road, unless you have a big class advantage.The problem the giant face is that they can't take away the INTs. They will have figure out a way to win in spite of them. The Bears to a slighter lesser degree have the same problem. That's what happens when your QB can't move from gunslinger to elite status. The 4 elite QBs now in the NFL all went through a gunslinger stage although it did not take some of them very long to do it.

[Valuist]

The problem the giant face is that they can't take away the INTs. They will have figure out a way to win in spite of them. The Bears to a slighter lesser degree have the same problem. That's what happens when your QB can't move from gunslinger to elite status. The 4 elite QBs now in the NFL all went through a gunslinger stage although it did not take some of them very long to do it.

I can't compare Cutler to Eli. In 2013, Eli has been horrible. Sure, the last INT last night was on Myers, but the first two were on him. Until this season, Cutler has had to deal with a terrible O-line. This year, they drafted two OLs, and signed two free agents. Performance wise, there's no comparison:

Cutler 95 QB rating, 66% completion, 12 TD 6 INT
Eli 64 QB rating, 54% completion, 9 TD 15 INT

[Robert Fischer]

Steelers have a win this week.

You guys are putting too much emphasis on the W-L record after 4 games.

[RunForTheRoses]

For the Giants, JPP is obviously not what he useta was, no linebackers, no offensive line, not much at RB. As a Giant fan at least there is no suspense, they ain't going nowhere, hopefully they will win a game or two, in fact I predict 4-12 or 5-11.

Q21BF38W3Gs

[cj's dad]

Steelers have a win this week.

You guys are putting too much emphasis on the W-L record after 4 games.

:D If the Stillers were 4-0, you would be doing cartwheels.

[Valuist]

Steelers have a win this week.

You guys are putting too much emphasis on the W-L record after 4 games.

I put NO emphasis on win loss records. They are deceiving much of the time.

[Robert Fischer]

:D If the Stillers were 4-0, you would be doing cartwheels.
I have to give credit to the Ravens.

They are a better franchise right now.

[Rise Over Run]

I put NO emphasis on win loss records. They are deceiving much of the time.
So are the number of SB victories.......

[Valuist]

So are the number of SB victories.......

What does that have to do with either of the Steelers or Giants merits/faults right now? That's in the rear view mirror, which is pointless in evaluating them now.

[Valuist]

Steelers actually looked good the other day. Amazing the difference when you finally have a positive turnover margin.

[Robert Fischer]

Steelers actually looked good the other day. Amazing the difference when you finally have a positive turnover margin.
A little early, but 'WE':cool: play Baltimore next week in a game that could already have playoff implications.


Baltimore game is HUGE!

Then: Raiders - Patriots - Buffalo - Detroit - Cleveland - Miami = 5-1


Others also haven't had a bye week yet.

[Valuist]

Both off a win last week. Steelers now have won their last two. The Giants are in a weak division so I wouldn't be shocked if at some point they ran off 4-5 wins in a row.....assuming they haven't quit on Coughlin.

Hard to gauge if the Giants finally improved their pass D; Freeman's throws were so bad, the coverage likely had little to do with it. They did appear to finally get their pass rush going.

[Valuist]

Between these two teams, I'm much higher on the Giants. This Pittsburgh team is lousy. Laying more than a FG against Buffalo? Not warranted, IMO.

[tucker6]

Between these two teams, I'm much higher on the Giants. This Pittsburgh team is lousy. Laying more than a FG against Buffalo? Not warranted, IMO.
I'd still rather have the Steelers.