Irony about Unions

[Capper Al]

Unions are formed to work more effectively as a group rather than go it alone. Labor unions have declined in direct proportion with the fall of the middle-class. The people have lost their power to negotiate for a better life as a group and are being bulldozed down by the capitalist.

One normally won't consider the capitalist to form a union. But since the limits have been taken off political donations and labor unions not being able to compete with third world countries, the perfect storm has emerged for capitalist to unite as they have under the Koch brother's Tea Party. What we actually have with the government shutdown is a strike by organized capital covered up under the Tea Party umbrella. Unions aren't gone they just moved out of labor to capital.

[PaceAdvantage]

Unions fail because they become corrupt and greedy and they kill their host eventually.

They become no different than your common parasite.

Shakedown artists, mobsters and unions. All cut from the same cloth.

[Capper Al]

Unions fail because they become corrupt and greedy and they kill their host eventually.

They become no different than your common parasite.

Shakedown artists, mobsters and unions. All cut from the same cloth.

Name me three organizations that are not corrupt and greedy?

Bank America - no.
Leeman Bros. - no.
Catholic Church - no.
GM - no.
Citi-bank - no.
Tea Party (a.k.a. American Taliban) - no.

You should think your statements through before posting the gospel according to the right. You might begin to understand how you are being taken.

[Clocker]

Unions fail because they become corrupt and greedy and they kill their host eventually.

They become no different than your common parasite.

Shakedown artists, mobsters and unions. All cut from the same cloth.

I have worked several jobs that required union membership. I never felt that my union cared any more about me than did the company. The primary goal of union leadership is power. The primary method of achieving power is to maximize membership, and therefore dues. Membership gives you power over management, and dues gives you power to buy politicians.

[Clocker]

Capper Al said:

Here is today's Tea Part/Taliban post. Enjoy!

[Capper Al]

I have worked several jobs that required union membership. I never felt that my union cared any more about me than did the company. The primary goal of union leadership is power. The primary method of achieving power is to maximize membership, and therefore dues. Membership gives you power over management, and dues gives you power to buy politicians.

Where as the company cared for you? The companies didn't have their own agenda separate from your own. This is how propaganda works. It forces you to look at the situation from the way they want you to look at it. You need to improve your critical thinking skills to get out of this trap and question the gospels from both the right and left.

[Clocker]

Where as the company cared for you?

Did you read what I said? I said I didn't feel that either was concerned about me. I didn't the company to care. I did expect more from the union.


This is how propaganda works. It forces you to look at the situation from the way they want you to look at it.

The only propaganda I got was from the union, telling me about what a great job they were doing for me. The company ignored me alone as long as I showed up and did my job.

[badcompany]

Did you read what I said? I said I didn't feel that either was concerned about me. I didn't the company to care. I did expect more from the union.




The only propaganda I got was from the union, telling me about what a great job they were doing for me. The company ignored me alone as long as I showed up and did my job.

You're wasting your time. This guy has the emotional maturity of a toddler.

[Tom]

I never needed a union to talk for me.
I did alright.

The people I have worked have always been fair and treated all of the employees decently.

The myth of the big bad "Man" is the fodder of fools who want your money as dues.

[BlueShoe]

Shakedown artists, mobsters and unions. All cut from the same cloth.
And communists. With the exception of the mob run Teamsters, virtually every other union has been infiltrated and greatly controlled by the CP for a hundred years. A few of the old time bosses like Meany and Kirkland tried to keep the Reds out, but recent men like Sweeney and Trumka have jumped in bed with and embraced the Bolsheviks.

[DJofSD]

Unions are like desert. A little is good, too much is problematic.

[PaceAdvantage]

Name me three organizations that are not corrupt and greedy?

Bank America - no.
Leeman Bros. - no.
Catholic Church - no.
GM - no.
Citi-bank - no.
Tea Party (a.k.a. American Taliban) - no.

You should think your statements through before posting the gospel according to the right. You might begin to understand how you are being taken.If unions were beneficial, they would be thriving after all these years. Not dying off...

[sammy the sage]

You need to improve your critical thinking skills to get out of this trap and question the gospels from both the right and left.

Before you preach to other's perhaps you SHOULD follow YOUR OWN advice :rolleyes:

oh snap I forgot...you live BY THE government's motto... :faint: :lol:

[MutuelClerk]

I've been a union worker my whole life. I'm not going to defend them. I do see irony however. With the shrinking of the middle class and wages they are probably needed now more than ever. The problem as I see it is unions have become so big they are their own corporations. They put themselves before their memberships. The worker is caught in the middle. Both sides taking money from our pockets ( management and union) and putting themselves first. Sad.

[PaceAdvantage]

I've been a union worker my whole life. I'm not going to defend them. I do see irony however. With the shrinking of the middle class and wages they are probably needed now more than ever. The problem as I see it is unions have become so big they are their own corporations. They put themselves before their memberships. The worker is caught in the middle. Both sides taking money from our pockets ( management and union) and putting themselves first. Sad.Bingo! What I said...only better...

BTW Al, does this count as preaching right-wing propaganda?

[Capper Al]

Before you preach to other's perhaps you SHOULD follow YOUR OWN advice :rolleyes:

oh snap I forgot...you live BY THE government's motto... :faint: :lol:

Sam would you make a point? I gave concrete examples that organizations by nature are corrupt. I'm sorry if you believe the repubs that only labor unions are corrupt. Learn and move on.

[Capper Al]

If unions were beneficial, they would be thriving after all these years. Not dying off...

The unions can't control labor access anymore with competition from third world countries. They lost their edge. You just refuse to think.

[Capper Al]

Unions are formed to work more effectively as a group rather than go it alone. Labor unions have declined in direct proportion with the fall of the middle-class. The people have lost their power to negotiate for a better life as a group and are being bulldozed down by the capitalist.

One normally won't consider the capitalist to form a union. But since the limits have been taken off political donations and labor unions not being able to compete with third world countries, the perfect storm has emerged for capitalist to unite as they have under the Koch brother's Tea Party. What we actually have with the government shutdown is a strike by organized capital covered up under the Tea Party umbrella. Unions aren't gone they just moved out of labor to capital.

The capitalist are on strike! For what you might ask? To continue the lowering of the standard of living for the middle-class.

[sammy the sage]

The capitalist are on strike! For what you might ask? To continue the lowering of the standard of living for the middle-class.

Actually it's the CURRENT ACA posturing is EXACT role reversal of THIS :rolleyes:

How ironic is THAT?

an ANALogy is order for you to understand....Doc is prescribing medicine...but WON'T take IT himself.... ;)

[sammy the sage]

Sam would you make a point? I gave concrete examples that organizations by nature are corrupt. I'm sorry if you believe the repubs that only labor unions are corrupt. Learn and move on.

wtf...I've made those EXACT observations THE 10 yrs I've been posting here....

I've been an EQUAL opportunity basher of BOTH sides of THE aisle's worst positions...

The point TO you...look in THE mirror on YOUR positions...

[hcap]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union

The 18th century economist Adam Smith noted the imbalance in the rights of workers in regards to owners (or "masters"). In The Wealth of Nations, Book I, chapter 8, Smith wrote:

"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combination of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labor above their actual rate[.] When workers combine, masters ... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combination of servants, labourers, and journeymen.

[PaceAdvantage]

The unions can't control labor access anymore with competition from third world countries. They lost their edge. You just refuse to think.Are you saying there are no corporations left in the US that employ people that can benefit from a union that is actually beneficial to the worker?

Third world countries have infiltrated the system this much?

In the words of Jerry Seinfeld....I...don't...think...so....

[PaceAdvantage]

wtf...I've made those EXACT observations THE 10 yrs I've been posting here....

I've been an EQUAL opportunity basher of BOTH sides of THE aisle's worst positions...

The point TO you...look in THE mirror on YOUR positions...Al will probably ignore you since he can't classify you as a righty...he's got no game other than that...

[Clocker]

The capitalist are on strike! For what you might ask? To continue the lowering of the standard of living for the middle-class.

Capitalists make money by selling stuff. Who buys the most stuff? People with disposable income. Who has the most disposable income? The middle class. The middle class drives the consumer economy.

Please explain how it is in the self-interest of capitalists to destroy their customer base. Who buys the big houses and expensive cars and fancy clothes and high tech appliances if there is no middle class? What do producers of goods gain by lowering the standard of living of their customers?

[Capper Al]

Capitalists make money by selling stuff. Who buys the most stuff? People with disposable income. Who has the most disposable income? The middle class. The middle class drives the consumer economy.

Please explain how it is in the self-interest of capitalists to destroy their customer base. Who buys the big houses and expensive cars and fancy clothes and high tech appliances if there is no middle class? What do producers of goods gain by lowering the standard of living of their customers?

Because the growth is overseas. The US is in a downward spiral. Mostly what can made here is claimed by one business or another.

[Clocker]

Because the growth is overseas. The US is in a downward spiral. Mostly what can made here is claimed by one business or another.

How does eliminating their American customer base help them sell more overseas?

And according to you, the US is in a downward spiral because capitalists are destroying the middle class. So capitalists are forced to sell overseas because capitalists purposely destroyed their own markets here?

[LottaKash]

Because the growth is overseas. The US is in a downward spiral. Mostly what can made here is claimed by one business or another.

Well, you can give kudos to Slick Willie for much of the problems that you have just mentioned.....He gave away the store when he ushered in all those so called "Free Trade Agreements", such as IFTA, NAFTA etc....Yeah free trade for China is what happened....And, now they "OWN US" along with most of our debt...

Or, haven't you noticed this yet ?....

[Capper Al]

How does eliminating their American customer base help them sell more overseas?

And according to you, the US is in a downward spiral because capitalists are destroying the middle class. So capitalists are forced to sell overseas because capitalists purposely destroyed their own markets here?

Capitalist aren't destroying anything. They just prefer the cheaper labor overseas.

[Tom]

Why don't you got China and organize the labor?
Big market for you just a-waiting!

[Clocker]

Capitalist aren't destroying anything. They just prefer the cheaper labor overseas.

You said "The capitalist are on strike! For what you might ask? To continue the lowering of the standard of living for the middle-class."

Lowering the standard of living of the middle class is essentially destroying the middle class. And the cheap labor overseas does not equate to the middle class here, it equates to the lower class here.

So you still have not shown what the capitalists have to gain by "...lowering of the standard of living for the middle-class."

[tucker6]

Why don't you got China and organize the labor?
Big market for you just a-waiting!
Good idea. I can't see what could go wrong if Al tried that. Go for it Al. :ThmbUp:

[Capper Al]

Why don't you got China and organize the labor?
Big market for you just a-waiting!

It has happen in China. A few companies had strikes and ended up getting pay increases. It's just a matter of time for unions to kick in. Remember that we had to spill a little blood before we would have the right to unionize. I'm sureit will be the same in China.

[HUSKER55]

MAYBE SOME OF THOSE JOBS WILL COME BACK TO THE USA.:D

[KjcBuf]

I work for Pepsi in Buffalo and I am a part of the USW and have been there for almost two years. My last job I worked for a large food distributor doing the exact same thing that I do now but was not a part of a union. I can tell you that I am very happy giving 5 cents per hour of my pay check to the union for what they do for me. My wages doubled as did the benefits I receive compared to my last job while the duties remain basically the same . Also anytime I have a conversation with management my union rep is there to back me up and has helped me a few times already(getting time off for saratoga). A lot of the old guys at the company always tell me how much better off they are now after we unionized . So as of now being 23 years old being in a secure well paid job I have no complaints about the union, but things could change down the road who knows.

[DJofSD]

I work for Pepsi in Buffalo and I am a part of the USW and have been there for almost two years. My last job I worked for a large food distributor doing the exact same thing that I do now but was not a part of a union. I can tell you that I am very happy giving 5 cents per hour of my pay check to the union for what they do for me. My wages doubled as did the benefits I receive compared to my last job while the duties remain basically the same . Also anytime I have a conversation with management my union rep is there to back me up and has helped me a few times already(getting time off for saratoga). A lot of the old guys at the company always tell me how much better off they are now after we unionized . So as of now being 23 years old being in a secure well paid job I have no complaints about the union, but things could change down the road who knows.
Nice to hear you are in a better job than before. And that you are enjoying the situation. Just remember: nothing lasts forever.

[Capper Al]

Nice to hear you are in a better job than before. And that you are enjoying the situation. Just remember: nothing lasts forever.

What's your point? The same advise applies either way. Had he been forced out of a high paying union job and into a low paying non-union job, your advise still applies. You just wanted to give it a negative sounding twist. Substance please in your comments.

[PaceAdvantage]

Substance please in your comments.You're one to talk about substance in comments.

[Tom]

What's your point? The same advise applies either way. Had he been forced out of a high paying union job and into a low paying non-union job, your advise still applies. You just wanted to give it a negative sounding twist. Substance please in your comments.


No, if he went to a worse job, DJ would have said


Sorry to hear you are in a worse job than before. And that you are hating the situation. Just remember: nothing lasts forever.

[DJofSD]

CA, you come across as a bitter old man. If you choose to interpret my remarks as negative, there's not too much I can do about that.

The point of 'nothing lasts forever' was to suggest to not become complacent. Yes, enjoy the moment and the fruits of your labor but do not believe for a second that everything will be as comfortable for the rest of you life. Very, very few people are able to put their life's on cruise control. Plan, now, for a rainy day not when it happens.

[hcap]

CA, you come across as a bitter old man. If you choose to interpret my remarks as negative, there's not too much I can do about that.

Btw, are you a communist?

The point of 'nothing lasts forever' was to suggest to not become complacent. Yes, enjoy the moment and the fruits of your labor but do not believe for a second that everything will be as comfortable for the rest of you life. Very, very few people are able to put their life's on cruise control. Plan, now, for a rainy day not when it happens.


ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE NOT A "PLANT" FROM THE DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND?
FTFY
:cool: :cool: :lol:

[Tom]

Uncalled for and classless.
DJ made a serious post in response to an insult.
Your are better than that..............aren't you?

[HUSKER55]

tom, go by the actions.

[Capper Al]

You're one to talk about substance in comments.

Substance please. Papa bear protecting cubby?

[Capper Al]

No, if he went to a worse job, DJ would have said


Sorry to hear you are in a worse job than before. And that you are hating the situation. Just remember: nothing lasts forever.

So what's the point? Just defending one of your home boys?

[Capper Al]

CA, you come across as a bitter old man. If you choose to interpret my remarks as negative, there's not too much I can do about that.

The point of 'nothing lasts forever' was to suggest to not become complacent. Yes, enjoy the moment and the fruits of your labor but do not believe for a second that everything will be as comfortable for the rest of you life. Very, very few people are able to put their life's on cruise control. Plan, now, for a rainy day not when it happens.

Agree.

[PaceAdvantage]

Substance please. Papa bear protecting cubby?Jealous?

[PaceAdvantage]

Substance please.When you start bringing some, I will follow suit.

[Tom]

So what's the point? Just defending one of your home boys?

My point was that your post was more idiotic than usual, and that is saying something. I never heard of idiot-squared before.

[Capper Al]

My point was that your post was more idiotic than usual, and that is saying something. I never heard of idiot-squared before.

My point was that your post was more idiotic than usual, and that is saying something. I never heard of idiot-squared before. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tom]

School's closed today, Al?
No homework?
Jeez, dude, grow up. 4th grade was fun but come on.....

[Native Texan III]

Tyler Cowen wrote an important book that shows whether you are in a union or not that workers will be onto a bad thing for many years to come. Unions have tended to get their members higher wages and preserved pension and l health rights over the last 40 years. Unlike Germany where workers are represented on the company boards to help the company expand and in doing so preserving their members jobs, the USA experience is good intentions dissolving into corruption. Companies may stay and want to stay good employers but they do tend to be forced to follow their competitors if they start a race to the bottom. With 50% of USA now owned by 400 people it might not be long before the 99% kick back if their standard of living continues to fall.

The Great Stagnation

"America is in disarray and our economy is failing us. We have been through the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression, unemployment remains stubbornly high, and talk of a double-dip recession persists. Americans are not pulling the world economy out of its sluggish state -- if anything we are looking to Asia to drive a recovery. Median wages have risen only slowly since the 1970s, and this multi-decade stagnation is not yet over. By contrast, the living standards of earlier generations would double every few decades. The Democratic Party seeks to expand government spending even when the middle class feels squeezed, the public sector doesn’t always perform well, and we have no good plan for paying for forthcoming entitlement spending. To the extent Republicans have a consistent platform, it consists of unrealistic claims about how tax cuts will raise revenue and stimulate economic growth. The Republicans, when they hold power, are often a bigger fiscal disaster than the Democrats. How did we get into this mess? Imagine a tropical island where the citrus and bananas hang from the trees. Low-hanging literal fruit -- you don’t even have to cook the stuff. In a figurative sense, the American economy has enjoyed lots of low-hanging fruit since at least the seventeenth century: free land; immigrant labor; and powerful new technologies. Yet during the last forty years, that low-hanging fruit started disappearing and we started pretending it was still there. We have failed to recognize that we are at a technological plateau and the trees are barer than we would like to think. That’s it. That is what has gone wrong. The problem won’t be solved overnight, but there are reasons to be optimistic. We simply have to recognize the underlying causes of our past prosperity—low hanging fruit—and how we will come upon more of it."

His latest book is Average Is Over:

The widening gap between rich and poor means dealing with one big, uncomfortable truth: If you’re not at the top, you’re at the bottom.

The global labor market is changing radically thanks to growth at the high end—and the low. About three quarters of the jobs created in the United States since the great recession pay only a bit more than minimum wage. Still, the United States has more millionaires and billionaires than any country ever, and we continue to mint them.

In this eye-opening book, renowned economist and bestselling author Tyler Cowen explains that phenomenon: High earners are taking ever more advantage of machine intelligence in data analysis and achieving ever-better results. Meanwhile, low earners who haven’t committed to learning, to making the most of new technologies, have poor prospects. Nearly every business sector relies less and less on manual labor, and this fact is forever changing the world of work and wages. A steady, secure life somewhere in the middle—average—is over.

With The Great Stagnation, Cowen explained why median wages stagnated over the last four decades; in Average Is Over he reveals the essential nature of the new economy, identifies the best path forward for workers and entrepreneurs, and provides readers with actionable advice to make the most of the new economic landscape. It is a challenging and sober must-read but ultimately exciting, good news. In debates about our nation’s economic future, it will be impossible to ignore.

[HUSKER55]

did his book only look at the fortune 500?

Americas economy grew on the vision of people who lead the way. Big risk and big rewards. The workers that went along should get a share. But the small businesses are the backbone of our economy.

The people that build the planes, trains, cars and etc are important to every-ones growth. But it is the mom and pops who are the true backbone.

JMHO

[DJofSD]

did his book only look at the fortune 500?

Americas economy grew on the vision of people who lead the way. Big risk and big rewards. The workers that went along should get a share. But the small businesses are the backbone of our economy.

The people that build the planes, trains, cars and etc are important to every-ones growth. But it is the mom and pops who are the true backbone.

JMHO
Along those lines, if The Men Who Built America (http://www.history.com/shows/men-who-built-america) ever repeats on the History Channel, watch it.

[Tom]

Had there been unions back then, we would still be riding horses and sewing our own clothes.

We hear the same old story from the unions about how they were needed to make working live fair - I agree 100%.

But we also need those "tyrants" to push the development of industry in the first place.