More inane doings at Gulfstream

[cj]

They care three races on Saturday at 1 mile on the turf. The temp rail is set at 84 feet for all three. But, the runup changes:

R4: 210 feet
R6: 210 feet
R8: 135 feet

First, having run ups that long is ridiculous. I know they are probably trying to start as far back from the turn as possible, but in that case call these races what they are. Races 4 and 6 are 1m 70y, and race 8 is about 1m 40y. Second, why are they changing run ups for the same distance and track on the same card? This game is tough enough without playing games with run up distances, isn't it?

[Stillriledup]

You can look at it two ways....the harder they make it for the "masses" the easier it can be for someone who is paying attention. It does make it harder for you, but also makes it harder for your competition.

[cj]

You can look at it two ways....the harder they make it for the "masses" the easier it can be for someone who is paying attention. It does make it harder for you, but also makes it harder for your competition.

I understand where you are coming from, but when the sport does things like this it discourages the creation of "masses", even if they don't know exactly why.

We had a race listed at the same distance with the same rail position, and NW3 LT claimers ran faster than better stakes horses for no real reason other than the different run up.

[thaskalos]

You can look at it two ways....the harder they make it for the "masses" the easier it can be for someone who is paying attention. It does make it harder for you, but also makes it harder for your competition.
If that's their intention...then they've done an admirable job.

They have confused the "masses" right out of existence.

[Stillriledup]

I understand where you are coming from, but when the sport does things like this it discourages the creation of "masses", even if they don't know exactly why.

We had a race listed at the same distance with the same rail position, and NW3 LT claimers ran faster than better stakes horses for no real reason other than the different run up.

I know you're a stickler for all things numerical related, but how many "newbies" are making their own figures 3 days after they are introduced to the sport? Zero. Nobody who's learning the game cares about gate placement, its only the hard core types that are concerned about it....but your premise is true, tracks need to realize that the creation of masses is important for the long term health of the sport. The biggest "not knowing why" situation is takeout and breakage, the new bettors don't know why they have less money in their pockets, they just do.

[cj]

I know you're a stickler for all things numerical related, but how many "newbies" are making their own figures 3 days after they are introduced to the sport? Zero. Nobody who's learning the game cares about gate placement, its only the hard core types that are concerned about it....but your premise is true, tracks need to realize that the creation of masses is important for the long term health of the sport. The biggest "not knowing why" situation is takeout and breakage, the new bettors don't know why they have less money in their pockets, they just do.

Like I said, this supposed newbie sees that a NW3 lifetime claiming horses ran faster than stakes horses (not great ones, but still, better), so they bet them back. Of course they probably won't win, and they'll be left to wonder why.

[Stillriledup]

Like I said, this supposed newbie sees that a NW3 lifetime claiming horses ran faster than stakes horses (not great ones, but still, better), so they bet them back. Of course they probably won't win, and they'll be left to wonder why.

They will learn that there is a lot more to this game than just looking at fast times.

[Tom]

Inexcusable - race track run by morons.
I would sooner hand my money over to a pan handler than bet a duce of it at any Florida Track.

[cj]

They will learn that there is a lot more to this game than just looking at fast times.

Or to ignore them completely, which is worse. I guess your track won't have a timer.

[Greyfox]

Second, why are they changing run ups for the same distance and track on the same card?

:ThmbUp: Agreed. Tracks should never be changing their configuration or their surface structure significantly during a card.

[Saratoga_Mike]

They care three races on Saturday at 1 mile on the turf. The temp rail is set at 84 feet for all three. But, the runup changes:

R4: 210 feet
R6: 210 feet
R8: 135 feet

First, having run ups that long is ridiculous. I know they are probably trying to start as far back from the turn as possible, but in that case call these races what they are. Races 4 and 6 are 1m 70y, and race 8 is about 1m 40y. Second, why are they changing run ups for the same distance and track on the same card? This game is tough enough without playing games with run up distances, isn't it?

If they use the same run-up distance for each mile race, the gate would be positioned in the same exact spot for three races and the turf in that area would be ripped up (e.g., horses jostling around in the gate) and matted down more? Could that be it? Of course that could be resolved by not scheduling three one-mile turf events, but maybe that's what filled.

[cj]

If they use the same run-up distance for each mile race, the gate would be positioned in the same exact spot for three races and the turf in that area would be ripped up (e.g., horses jostling around in the gate) and matted down more? Could that be it? Of course that could be resolved by not scheduling three one-mile turf events, but maybe that's what filled.

I'm sure that is a little bit of it, but 25 yards apart? That is two first downs and a nice first down rush after that for second and 5. I would never gripe if they moved it back or forward a few yards...that happens all the time even on dirt.

[RXB]

My guess: the field was short for the 8th race (only six horses), thus less chance of outside horses not getting a fair opportunity to avoid being hung wide going into the turn.

[Stillriledup]

Or to ignore them completely, which is worse. I guess your track won't have a timer.

That's a good idea, no timers at SRU....that way, guys who evaluate horses off of replays might have an edge...i'll pass it on to the higher ups. ;)

[johnhannibalsmith]

SRU Downs is starting to remind me of when they let Homer Simpson design a car.

[JustRalph]

Like I said, this supposed newbie sees that a NW3 lifetime claiming horses ran faster than stakes horses (not great ones, but still, better), so they bet them back. Of course they probably won't win, and they'll be left to wonder why.

This is a great point. They walk away quickly after a couple of these races

[wiffleball whizz]

I know you're a stickler for all things numerical related, but how many "newbies" are making their own figures 3 days after they are introduced to the sport? Zero. Nobody who's learning the game cares about gate placement, its only the hard core types that are concerned about it....but your premise is true, tracks need to realize that the creation of masses is important for the long term health of the sport. The biggest "not knowing why" situation is takeout and breakage, the new bettors don't know why they have less money in their pockets, they just do.


I would give my life to see "newbie figures" and every passing day on this site I'm starting to see I'm less far off handicapping then 95 percent of the people on here.....I gave way to much credit to people on here.....I'm a harness guy but I think I forgot more about flats then a lot of people know here(excluding cj PA TLG and a few others..PA is pounding $50 equines like there milk fed veal


I will say the people that actually Come out from behind the keyboard to live venues I've met know 20x more then me...Ronsmac proximity track collector and cjs dad know way more then I do


Rant over

[wiffleball whizz]

By the way cj not sure if you saw the race at CT sat night u had the 9 as the clear speed......I bet $180 to win 1-1 down to 2/5 as the gate opened..horse won "by a pole"

Lots of imposter fake figure makers around here you put them all to shame....


Hmmmmmmm for this weekend should I use cjs numbers or hang around the keyboard for the ultimate selectors selections with him master strategy of banging 1/5s to win cuz "profit is profit" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Rise Over Run]

I would give my life to see "newbie figures" and every passing day on this site I'm starting to see I'm less far off handicapping then 95 percent of the people on here.....

If you would spend just as much time reading my book (Slope Handicapping) as you do performing karaoke with CJs Dad you would be a better flat handicapper than 99% of the posters here.

[wiffleball whizz]

If you would spend just as much time reading my book (Slope Handicapping) as you do performing karaoke with CJs Dad you would be a better flat handicapper than 99% of the posters here.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH........apparently slope handicapping is sweeping the country

[proximity]

he could take a copy of slope handicapping along for when he's bored at club fantasy. :D

[PhantomOnTour]

I would give my life to see "newbie figures" and every passing day on this site I'm starting to see I'm less far off handicapping then 95 percent of the people on here.....I gave way to much credit to people on here.....I'm a harness guy but I think I forgot more about flats then a lot of people know here(excluding cj PA TLG and a few others..PA is pounding $50 equines like there milk fed veal


I will say the people that actually Come out from behind the keyboard to live venues I've met know 20x more then me...Ronsmac proximity track collector and cjs dad know way more then I do


Rant over
Your asskissatry knows no bounds

[wiffleball whizz]

he could take a copy of slope handicapping along for when he's bored at club fantasy. :D


More tattoos at club fantasy per capita then a biker rally....both of which I ****ing hate

This thread is starting to veer like spicer cub at pimlico

Ill get it back on track with these rail settings are brutal for timing....laurels rails settings are no picnic either

[proximity]

This thread is starting to veer like spicer cub at pimlico


it might as well veer. we all agree with cj, but know gp's never gonna change.

[PaceAdvantage]

This thread is starting to veer like spicer cub at pimlicoAnother "insta-classic" line from the whifwhizzer...

Can I use this as my sig? :lol:

[johnhannibalsmith]

Another "insta-classic" line from the whifwhizzer...

Can I use this as my sig? :lol:

Yeah, for a guy that claims not to really follow the flats, he pulls out some pretty obscure gems like that one. :lol:

[wiffleball whizz]

Another "insta-classic" line from the whifwhizzer...

Can I use this as my sig? :lol:

Just give me some $50 horses :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tom]

Come to Finger Lakes - we have LOTS of $50 horses. :rolleyes:

[cj]

Same sh!t, different day at Gulfstream.

Three race run on the outside part of the course, rail at 108 feet all at 8.5f. Run up was 35, 250, 250.

Two races run on the inside part of the course, rait at 48 feet both at 8f. Run up of 60 and 125.

Even the 6f races on dirt had different run up, though only 5 feet apart.

[classhandicapper]

Like I said, this supposed newbie sees that a NW3 lifetime claiming horses ran faster than stakes horses (not great ones, but still, better), so they bet them back. Of course they probably won't win, and they'll be left to wonder why.

I can tell you from experience what happens even though we are talking decades ago in my case.

They start distrusting figures. Instead they explore measuring horses by the quality of horses (class) they ran against and how well they ran. They get better and better at that, but eventually run into an entirely different set of problems. So they try to take the best of both worlds and combine them into a unified method. Then after about 20 years of that they contemplate jumping out a window. :lol:

[BIG49010]

On Saturday, I thought the Beyer for the 8th of 74 was a little low, any guess what it should be?

[dirty moose]

They also do not report having 2 turf tracks......

[cj]

Today's run up distances were pretty crazy again:

7 D 30
8 T48 200
5 T108 90
6 D 15
8 T48 125
8 D 5
6.5 D 25
6.5 D 30
8.5 T108 35
8 T48 60

I'm going to have to watch replays of races 6 and 7, hard to believe they moved the gate when the next race was the exact same distance. The dirt wasn't too bad, though a little hard to figure out why the 6f race, with the most room, had the shortest run up. The 5 foot run up at one mile won't change because there is no more room.

The big one today was the one mile turf races, all on the "rail 48" turf course. Three of them run, run ups of 200, 125, and 60. Words can't describe how stupid that is.

[Hosshead]

GP purposely does this to screw up the times (ie. handicapping) to create long prices/ carryovers in future races.
Some tracks do this with track maintance during the day, using water/ deep harrowing etc. during the same card.

Gp does this "manipulation" with run up distances.
The run up could be changed slightly. (away from the gate ground)
No reason for such extreme changes in run up distance unless they want to change the times and thus handicapping for future races.
Would you expect anything other than this from Stronach ?

[Stillriledup]

GP purposely does this to screw up the times (ie. handicapping) to create long prices/ carryovers in future races.
Some tracks do this with track maintance during the day, using water/ deep harrowing etc. during the same card.

Gp does this "manipulation" with run up distances.
The run up could be changed slightly. (away from the gate ground)
No reason for such extreme changes in run up distance unless they want to change the times and thus handicapping for future races.
Would you expect anything other than this from Stronach ?

There was some "odd" bias today and i saw this the other day but found it odd...in Friday's 8th, Harry's Holiday was an even money shot (that i thought was overbet) and that horse looked to be going nowhere on the far turn, struggling along.....than, was angled out and went from "Dead in the water" to not only powering away, but the rest of the horses just seemed to disappear. You dont normally see a horse who is 'going up and down' looking like a loser, to an easy winner 2 strides later.

[Ocala Mike]

If they use the same run-up distance for each mile race, the gate would be positioned in the same exact spot for three races and the turf in that area would be ripped up



Too logical, Saratoga_Mike, and this explanation does nothing for the conspiracy theorists running rampant in this thread.

[Tom]

So they need to move it 140 feet?
Sorry, that makes no sense.

[classhandicapper]

There was some "odd" bias today and i saw this the other day but found it odd...in Friday's 8th, Harry's Holiday was an even money shot (that i thought was overbet) and that horse looked to be going nowhere on the far turn, struggling along.....than, was angled out and went from "Dead in the water" to not only powering away, but the rest of the horses just seemed to disappear. You dont normally see a horse who is 'going up and down' looking like a loser, to an easy winner 2 strides later.

I didn't watch the races from GP yesterday, but I occasionally see biases in "sections" of the track.

Even experienced handicappers tend to think in very black and white terms when it comes to biases. They think "good rail" or "bad rail". But sometimes right on the rail is golden/dead, sometimes the inside 2 paths are golden/dead etc... Years ago I saw days at Belmont where the inside 3-4 paths were bad. Sometimes the inside is golden/bad just on the turn or just in the stretch.

It's immensely complicated. Compounding the difficulty is that now they often card 5-6 turf races and a couple of maiden races where form is highly volatile. So you have very few dirt races to make a judgement.

My notes are full of days with notes like "possible favorable rail", "inside 2 paths dominated, but small sample", "no one could rally outside on turn, but inside out trip into stretch was great".

A lot of the time the samples are so small even after I get to see horses run back I am forced to leave "possible" in the notes.

[classhandicapper]

It's easily possible that management either does not understand the issue and how difficult it makes it for figure makers or doesn't consider it significant enough to communicate down to the crew to try to be consistent. Someone with a "voice" should communicate it to management.

[magwell]

Today's run up distances were pretty crazy again:

7 D 30
8 T48 200
5 T108 90
6 D 15
8 T48 125
8 D 5
6.5 D 25
6.5 D 30
8.5 T108 35
8 T48 60

I'm going to have to watch replays of races 6 and 7, hard to believe they moved the gate when the next race was the exact same distance. The dirt wasn't too bad, though a little hard to figure out why the 6f race, with the most room, had the shortest run up. The 5 foot run up at one mile won't change because there is no more room.

The big one today was the one mile turf races, all on the "rail 48" turf course. Three of them run, run ups of 200, 125, and 60. Words can't describe how stupid that is. That's amazing, regarding the mile turf , does the beyer #'s factor that in ?

[Tom]

It's easily possible that management either does not understand the issue and how difficult it makes it for figure makers or doesn't consider it significant enough to communicate down to the crew to try to be consistent. Someone with a "voice" should communicate it to management.

Remembering the Andy Beyer case about their timing a while back, I think we can rule out stupidity, unless those who run GP REALLY very stupid people. I think not giving a crap about their customers is the most likely case. Not that they are alone in that.

(Although being REALLY stupid is certainly still on the table)

[Ocala Mike]

The really stupid people are those who are trying to make numbers on grass races. It's all about trips, jockeys, trainers, and breeding.

[cj]

The really stupid people are those who are trying to make numbers on grass races. It's all about trips, jockeys, trainers, and breeding.

So I'm stupid? That is nice to know. Thanks.

[cj]

It's easily possible that management either does not understand the issue and how difficult it makes it for figure makers or doesn't consider it significant enough to communicate down to the crew to try to be consistent. Someone with a "voice" should communicate it to management.

Its being worked on.

[cj]

Too logical, Saratoga_Mike, and this explanation does nothing for the conspiracy theorists running rampant in this thread.



I never said it was a conspiracy, just that it makes no sense and isn't very fair to handicappers. I would be here complaining if the gate were moved 10 feet, or 20 feet even, to protect the ground. But moving it from 35 feet to 250, ON THE SAME DAY? Come on...

[magwell]

That's amazing, regarding the mile turf , does the beyer #'s factor that in ? The "sheets" claim its factored in their #s....

[cj]

The "sheets" claim its factored in their #s....

It is probably factored into most numbers, even if the figure maker doesn't know why. But anyone doing automated numbers might be in trouble.

As for the Sheets, it can be done. I just hope they are using video these days and not a guy in the stands with a stopwatch. You also have to have a way to measure the actual run up, or trust Equibase.

[Ocala Mike]

So I'm stupid? That is nice to know. Thanks.



Don't take it personally. I used to try and go by speed numbers on the grass, but then I saw a few Graham Motion scores in big races within the last month and came to the realization, however valid, that it doesn't work for me.

Also, I left out turf course conditions in my list of factors that, for me, make it absolutely impossible to use speed figures.

[cj]

Don't take it personally. I used to try and go by speed numbers on the grass, but then I saw a few Graham Motion scores in big races within the last month and came to the realization, however valid, that it doesn't work for me.

Also, I left out turf course conditions in my list of factors that, for me, make it absolutely impossible to use speed figures.

Impossible not to take personally when you call someone really stupid. Would you say that in person? I seriously doubt it.

Nobody has ever said figures of any kind are the only way to go for any kind of race, not just turf races. That doesn't mean turf figures can't have value, or that races shouldn't be run so they can be timed properly and compared.

Just because something is impossible for you to do doesn't mean those that can are "really stupid."

[Ocala Mike]

The really stupid people are people like me who tried to make numbers on grass races and couldn't win with them. It's all about trips, jockeys, trainers, and breeding.



I see I got under your skin, so I fixed that for you.

PS: I like BLUEGRASS SAPPHIRE in the 5th at FG today because I like his closing style (although I'm not sure if he "numbers up.")

[cj]

I see I got under your skin, so I fixed that for you.

PS: I like BLUEGRASS SAPPHIRE in the 5th at FG today because I like his closing style (although I'm not sure if he "numbers up.")

You actually didn't, just doing my part as a moderator. No need for that kind of stuff here.

Enjoy you day and good look on your selection.

[cj's dad]

I see I got under your skin, so I fixed that for you.

PS: I like BLUEGRASS SAPPHIRE in the 5th at FG today because I like his closing style (although I'm not sure if he "numbers up.")

The #6-Imposing Grace is 12 pts faster in the late pace category.

[Ocala Mike]

The :6: didn't fire. I caught the $55.80 exacta.

Need an 8/12 exacta box in the 7th.

[cj]

The :6: didn't fire. I caught the $55.80 exacta.

Need an 8/12 exacta box in the 7th.

The top figure horse was actually the winner on my numbers. I didn't even watch FG today, so I didn't bet or anything.

[Ocala Mike]

Ran 2nd/3rd. Would have had the new "imperfecta" bet coming up at NYRA.
Probably beat by another top figure horse.

That 9th at GP was a chaos race, though. Wouldn't have had that one in a million years.

Maybe I'll look at Hollywood for the last few tries; tomorrow is their closing day forever. What a shame.

[PaceAdvantage]

The top figure horse was actually the winner on my numbers. I didn't even watch FG today, so I didn't bet or anything.Ain't that a kick in the pants? Top number wins...kind of poetic justice for this thread... :lol:

[Ocala Mike]

They will learn that there is a lot more to this game than just looking at fast times.



Top figures = short prices. I want to move my tack to SRU Downs where horses like Inimitable Romanee win for no apparent reason, other than jockeys falling asleep in the saddle. How did that 9th race at GP yesterday "number out," I wonder?

[cj]

Check out the time of the 9th race today and compare it to the 10th. Anybody really believe that better horses ran 4.5 seconds slower on the inside part of the course than cheaper horses did on the outside part?

[classhandicapper]

Check out the time of the 9th race today and compare it to the 10th. Anybody really believe that better horses ran 4.5 seconds slower on the inside part of the course than cheaper horses did on the outside part?

I know you have a job to do. You do it as well as anyone or I wouldn't have been a customer for so long. But I'm at the stage where if I cash a ticket off a turf number, it feels like it must be an accident of some sort. There's so much going on that makes it difficult to get the numbers right, just getting fast, slow or average right is all I ask for. Then I can look through the quality of the field, the trips etc... and just use the numbers to help me interpret the results better.

GP seems like a fiasco.

[magwell]

Check out the time of the 9th race today and compare it to the 10th. Anybody really believe that better horses ran 4.5 seconds slower on the inside part of the course than cheaper horses did on the outside part?Could it be because the drainage of outside course and the track being banked making the inside slower ? it seems like a 3 second difference all the way around.......but your right it doesn't make sense.

[stevem]

I'm sure that is a little bit of it, but 25 yards apart? That is two first downs and a nice first down rush after that for second and 5. I would never gripe if they moved it back or forward a few yards...that happens all the time even on dirt.
Not sure about Gulfstream, but I know some tracks only have a few openings for the starting gate to even get on the turf course.

[BIG49010]

Jockey tactics seem to cause quite a bit of this, and it seems to happen more at Gulfstream. The inside course seems to allow speed to carry, and the outside it seems to always quit. So you see everyone on that outside course take back, and then you see that mad dash to the finish, like the last yesterday. Fractional times are at a crawl, on both.

[cj]

Not sure about Gulfstream, but I know some tracks only have a few openings for the starting gate to even get on the turf course.

I understand that, I just don't see why they have to use different ones on the same racing day. Nobody else does that.

[cj]

Could it be because the drainage of outside course and the track being banked making the inside slower ? it seems like a 3 second difference all the way around.......but your right it doesn't make sense.

Wasn't it 4.5? I'm not suggesting for a second that the courses will play the same, but 4.5 seconds is gigantic. That is the difference between firm and yielding on a lot of courses, and considering the horses on the inner were faster it is actually more than that.

[cj]

I know you have a job to do. You do it as well as anyone or I wouldn't have been a customer for so long. But I'm at the stage where if I cash a ticket off a turf number, it feels like it must be an accident of some sort. There's so much going on that makes it difficult to get the numbers right, just getting fast, slow or average right is all I ask for. Then I can look through the quality of the field, the trips etc... and just use the numbers to help me interpret the results better.

GP seems like a fiasco.

It is, so I'm taking drastic measures. I time all the turf races from the gate and make the ratings based on the total distance. Its all I can do really unless things change.

There is also a problem with mile races on dirt, so I do the same for those too. Gulfstream in the winter is a pretty big meet with lots of quality horses that will ship around the country, so I think it is worth the effort.

[Tom]

Disturbing that Trakus is apparently along for the ride.

[sammy the sage]

Jockey tactics explain much...such as on THE big days at Arlington the LAST year...some of the CHEAPER races went faster than the stakes...

would you have those cheaper horses against the stakes...of course not...

[cj]

Jockey tactics explain much...such as on THE big days at Arlington the LAST year...some of the CHEAPER races went faster than the stakes...

would you have those cheaper horses against the stakes...of course not...

They often race with different rail settings at Arlington on the same day.

[classhandicapper]

They often race with different rail settings at Arlington on the same day.

Yea, Arlington is another nightmare.

[cj]

Comical fractions in the 8th at Gulfstream today.

[BIG49010]

Comical fractions in the 8th at Gulfstream today.

How does the 90 foot Run up vs 165 foot change the race, and why couldn't they find the same place to set the gate?

[cj]

How does the 90 foot Run up vs 165 foot change the race, and why couldn't they find the same place to set the gate?

Well, first it makes the race longer. It also changes the fractions, as horses are up to speed by the end of the longer run ups.

I won't pretend solving the run up issue is easy, because it isn't. There is no simple formula to know how a change in run up affects final time. All I can do is use the data from previous races at the track.

The rail only accommodates certain positions for the starting gate. I understand the need to move it around so as not to tear up the course, just not the need to move it on the same day, often multiple times.

[sammy the sage]

Well, first it makes the race longer. It also changes the fractions, as horses are up to speed by the end of the longer run ups.

I won't pretend solving the run up issue is easy, because it isn't. There is no simple formula to know how a change in run up affects final time. All I can do is use the data from previous races at the track.

The rail only accommodates certain positions for the starting gate. I understand the need to move it around so as not to tear up the course, just not the need to move it on the same day, often multiple times.

then you're being NAIVE...cause there's CERTAINLY a person or two who HAS THOSE accurate figs...by MOVING the starting gates around... EXCLUSIVELY/privately for THAT track...no need to BE FAIR w/you or I or any other horseplayer..

[cj]

then you're being NAIVE...cause there's CERTAINLY a person or two who HAS THOSE accurate figs...by MOVING the starting gates around... EXCLUSIVELY/privately for THAT track...no need to BE FAIR w/you or I or any other horseplayer..

How am I naive? I know what is happening, and I make the figures accordingly. I was just saying there is no generic adjustment based on run up, it doesn't work.

I have a database for every race run for well over a decade now. If there was a reliable adjustment based strictly on run up, I'd have found it. If that is naive, so be it, but I think you are mistaken.

[the little guy]

How am I naive? I know what is happening, and I make the figures accordingly. I was just saying there is no generic adjustment based on run up, it doesn't work.

I have a database for every race run for well over a decade now. If there was a reliable adjustment based strictly on run up, I'd have found it. If that is naive, so be it, but I think you are mistaken.

You are naïve because despite almost a decade of experience, you continue to respond to inane posts from lunatics on message boards.

[JimG]

You are naïve because despite almost a decade of experience, you continue to respond to inane posts from lunatics on message boards.

Touche. Post of the day. :lol:

[sammy the sage]

You are naïve because despite almost a decade of experience, you continue to respond to inane posts from lunatics on message boards.

thanks for THE compliment.. ;)