Why was Mr Dooley running as purse only?

[letswastemoney]

I had an In Trouble / Mr Dooley double! I've been driving so I didn't see the reason.

[098poi]

He lost a shoe. I heard him say, "Mr. Dooley has lost a shoe" as they are loading and I thought he was going to ask if anyone had seen it!

[rrpic6]

Nice race for "Ticket Scoopers" at the track
RR

[letswastemoney]

He lost a shoe. I heard him say, "Mr. Dooley has lost a shoe" as they are loading and I thought he was going to ask if anyone had seen it!
Shows how big of a difference that makes. He won anyway.

[Stillriledup]

That's unbelievable. When they do that it just says "we care about our owners and the bettors, not so much"

What about the people who hated that horse and specifically made all their wagers contingent on him running at underlaid odds? Those people don't get "protected" as their prices all get deflated with the scratch, not to mention all the pick anythings to go on the post time favorite, not that it mattered, but if you made a bet on a pick 4 or pick 6 and you only made your bet because you hated the shoeless horse, you end up not being able to get a refund and you get stuck with that horse's money on your combinations, you know, if you used the fave in your sequence.

But, NY(Ra) dances to the beat of their own drummer, they're the only track i know of who just loads em and runs without backing them out and waiting till people rebet, they also couple a ton of horses (who really wanted Joes Blazing Aaron on their ticket yesterday at a mile and a half).

[Tom]

Bad decision by someone.
A lot of people had that horse in the exotics......screw them?
Re-shoe of scratch.

Cater to one owner or hundreds of paying customers?

I bet this never happens at SRU Downs! :D

[Stillriledup]

Bad decision by someone.
A lot of people had that horse in the exotics......screw them?
Re-shoe of scratch.

Cater to one owner or hundreds of paying customers?

I bet this never happens at SRU Downs! :D

It doesnt. We don't couple horses either and we don't DQ unless its absolutely necessary, there has to be some catastropic scenario or some major accident that affects the order to even consider a DQ, we are player friendly, we don't "protect" a certain segment of the players by screwing over another segment.

[NJ Stinks]

I had an In Trouble / Mr Dooley double! I've been driving so I didn't see the reason.

I had that DD too and the willpay was $28+. Instead we get a consolation DD that pays $5.40 while having the privilege of watching Mister Dooley romp.

Can anyone explain why this fair and just?

[Tom]

It is not either.

[cj]

Just playing devil's advocate, what happens if the horse missing a shoe never runs a step and finishes last by 30 lengths? It is a tough call, one in which I assume the stewards are following the law. The horse had an equipment change after betting was allowed.

[098poi]

Just playing devil's advocate, what happens if the horse missing a shoe never runs a step and finishes last by 30 lengths? It is a tough call, one in which I assume the stewards are following the law. The horse had an equipment change after betting was allowed.

That has to be the reason. If the horse runs noticeably poorly the bettors would raise hell and rightfully so. I think they should have scratched the horse. Taking a horse out can change the dynamics of the race and the final result. Letting one stay in whose performance could be suspect due to equipment change, or lack of equipment in this case, could affect the outcome also.

[cj]

That has to be the reason. If the horse runs noticeably poorly the bettors would raise hell and rightfully so. I think they should have scratched the horse. Taking a horse out can change the dynamics of the race and the final result. Letting one stay in whose performance could be suspect due to equipment change, or lack of equipment in this case, could affect the outcome also.

You have to consider the owner's side of things. It isn't cheap to get a horse to the gate I would guess, so if he wanted to run only seems fair. There is no easy answer here, but I don't think it makes much sense the horse was scratched from betting to hurt the public...it hurts the track too.

[Stillriledup]

So Cal has had situations where they have announced late "Gelding" changes after betting has started, is that a similar situation? Maybe So Cal should have let those late announced geldings run for purse only.

Here's the tricky part for me. A lot of times, i'm placing wagers that are specifically geared to beat a certain short priced horse and a lot of the wagers are contingent on the race being run as is, when they take a horse out of the wagering but let him run, that affects my bets and i'm sure a lot of other people, most people who bet on a horse at a certain price, might not bet that race knowing their horse is a much shorter price.

Also, i have to question the integrity of what they did.....the entire field was loaded and all of a sudden, they THEN announce the horse has no shoe? And then immediately run? What if a horse loses a shoe at 5 MTP, are they going to wait till the entire field is loaded and then go? If the horse lost the shoe during the load, well, that's one thing, but if the horse lost the shoe at 2 MTP and they never announced it until the field was basically loaded, that doesnt give bettors who have bet the race a chance to refund all their bets.

The bettors who bet on the shoeless horse were "protected" and got refunds, but the people who didnt like the shoeless horse got stuck on bets that they might not have wanted. If you want to be fair to one segment of the bettors, you can't hurt another segment of bettors in the process.

[BlueShoe]

I just had a modest sized win bet on him, no exotics. At the time of the declaration believe that he was 3-1. My emotional reaction after watching him win was that of either being shut out or even being DQ'd. :bang: :mad: To rub a little salt in the wound, right after this race my selection at Stockton lost it's rider at the break when the horse just outside of it veered in sharply into it at the start. This time did not get a refund. Two no runs back to back. :( These things do happen though.

[JustRalph]

I had that DD too and the willpay was $28+. Instead we get a consolation DD that pays $5.40 while having the privilege of watching Mister Dooley romp.

Can anyone explain why this fair and just?

That says it all right there........ouch!

[burnsy]

He rolled anyway...changing his name to "Mr. Three Shoes Dooley" or "Mr. Shoeless Dooley.

[Valuist]

If you are sound enough to run for purse money, then run for the damned pari mutuel money. If not, then scratch. NYRA should re-visit their stance on this issue.

[the little guy]

If you are sound enough to run for purse money, then run for the damned pari mutuel money. If not, then scratch. NYRA should re-visit their stance on this issue.


NYRA's stance on this issue? Really? You think we like our supposed " stance " which costs us hundreds of thousands in handle?

It is a rule. Not our rule. It is done to protect the public. Imagine the outcry had this 2:1 shot finished off the board. This happened at Saratoga and the horse finished off the board ( a Chad Brown 2YO ). I am not saying I wouldn't agree with the argument that it's a situation worthy of a discussion, it is, but please take a look at the whole picture before the usual finger pointing at NYRA. It was hardly a great result for us, to say the least.

There are two possible other alternatives....scratch the horse, or allow it to run for betting purposes. We know the outcome when it loses of the latter decision. It's a lousy situation. Maybe it is worth discussing simply scratching the horse. There are losers there as well. It's a tough one.

By the way, it was an expensive decision for me, as I used the horse in a live Pick-4, and not the eventual winner. I wasn't exactly thrilled with how it worked out. Mr. Dooley is a Trips&Traps horse from his debut.

[senortout]

tlg...aren't there (3) possible solutions....the best of which would be......



REPLACE THE DAMNED SHOE

[the little guy]

tlg...aren't there (3) possible solutions....the best of which would be......



REPLACE THE DAMNED SHOE

Yes, that is a possibility, I think, but it would also take a lot of time, which is why it is problematic.

[Tom]

So what did those who used the 12 end up getting - a conso, another horse?

[Not4Love]

If you are sound enough to run for purse money, then run for the damned pari mutuel money. If not, then scratch. NYRA should re-visit their stance on this issue.


You are so right! It is so unbelievable - everyone else involved with the horse gets paid except the people who bet on him. Incredible!!!

[raybo]

I got lucky, I replaced the 12 with the next ranked class horse in my rankings, which happened to be the horse who was the betting winner, and got a good price to boot!

[the little guy]

You are so right! It is so unbelievable - everyone else involved with the horse gets paid except the people who bet on him. Incredible!!!


Except when the horse doesn't hit the board, as happened the last time this occurred, which was in Saratoga.

Resulting is a very dangerous way to look at things.

[Valuist]

NYRA's stance on this issue? Really? You think we like our supposed " stance " which costs us hundreds of thousands in handle?

It is a rule. Not our rule. It is done to protect the public. Imagine the outcry had this 2:1 shot finished off the board. This happened at Saratoga and the horse finished off the board ( a Chad Brown 2YO ). I am not saying I wouldn't agree with the argument that it's a situation worthy of a discussion, it is, but please take a look at the whole picture before the usual finger pointing at NYRA. It was hardly a great result for us, to say the least.

There are two possible other alternatives....scratch the horse, or allow it to run for betting purposes. We know the outcome when it loses of the latter decision. It's a lousy situation. Maybe it is worth discussing simply scratching the horse. There are losers there as well. It's a tough one.

By the way, it was an expensive decision for me, as I used the horse in a live Pick-4, and not the eventual winner. I wasn't exactly thrilled with how it worked out. Mr. Dooley is a Trips&Traps horse from his debut.

OK, I'll remove blame from NYRA and put it on Albany. The fact of the matter is its a bad decision. On one hand, the horse is deemed safe enough to race, but not enough for the public to bet on? The only options, IMO, are either leave the horse in the betting field, or scratch it. Sorry if the owner is hurt, but I've owned horses before and there's always risks. If the horse scratches, there's always another day. Imagine trying to explain this process to a newbie at the track for the first time.

It just seems like every time, win or lose, that we see one of these running for purse only, nobody wins. Except in this case, an owner.

[lamboguy]

i read the rules for New York racing, any change of equipment after the betting public becomes aware of it warrants this move.

in the 40 years of watching racing, yesterday was the very first time i have ever seen a steward allow a horse to start in a race with a missing shoe. there was a day when i asked the stewards for permission to run a horse in Belmont without shoes on ahead of time, and they denied me my request. the next year i saw a horse entered there by a top notch trainer, and he was allowed to run without the shoes. this year i have a New York bred that i had to race in another track because my filly doesn't like to wear shoes.

i guarantee that if that horse yesterday was my horse, my horse would have been scratched. but this is nothing new to New York racing.

[NJ Stinks]

Just wanted to say I appreciate everyone's input in this thread. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

NYRA's stance on this issue? Really? You think we like our supposed " stance " which costs us hundreds of thousands in handle?

It is a rule. Not our rule. It is done to protect the public. Imagine the outcry had this 2:1 shot finished off the board. This happened at Saratoga and the horse finished off the board ( a Chad Brown 2YO ). I am not saying I wouldn't agree with the argument that it's a situation worthy of a discussion, it is, but please take a look at the whole picture before the usual finger pointing at NYRA. It was hardly a great result for us, to say the least.

There are two possible other alternatives....scratch the horse, or allow it to run for betting purposes. We know the outcome when it loses of the latter decision. It's a lousy situation. Maybe it is worth discussing simply scratching the horse. There are losers there as well. It's a tough one.

By the way, it was an expensive decision for me, as I used the horse in a live Pick-4, and not the eventual winner. I wasn't exactly thrilled with how it worked out. Mr. Dooley is a Trips&Traps horse from his debut.

People use the NYRA logo in their discussions because if they said "ny racing" instead, some could confuse that with other tracks in NY that are not under the NYRA umbrella. If someone specifically takes a shot at NYRA that's one thing, but when you are just using NYRA in order to specify that you're talking NYRA run tracks, people honestly don't care if its NYRA, Shmyra or Blyra running the tracks, they're just using that so they don't have to type out something longer than a 4 letter word. People understand that every state has state govt who is involved in decision making, but the NYRA brand helps cut to the chase, many times its not a "shot" at NYRA.

You say its done to "protect the public" but its really done to protect SOME of the public at the expense of the other part of the public. It really didnt protect someone who specifically hated that horse and made all their wagers contingent on that horse running at underlaid odds.

So, the people who bet on that horse got "protected' while other people were stuck with wagers they might not have wanted as all the odds dramatically changed after the scratch. Its like telling the Mr Dooley bettors "ok guys, you get your money back, you can live to fight again" but the other bettors "sorry guys, you're stuck with wagers you might not want, we just need to protect the people who found a way to bet ON a horse who lost a shoe, but the people who bet against him are SOL" And, we're not even talking about all the people who got stuck in the pick 4 and pick 6 with "alternate selections". How would you have loved to singled mr Dooley in the pick 4 on a lot of tickets and had to watch him win while your money was on some other horse, so even the people who were "protected' got hurt here in this situation.

How about a disclaimer in the program that says "sometimes horses lose shoes, if a horse loses a shoe, it might race anyway, we will give you as much advance notice as we can and you can try and cancel your bets, but that horse will race in the PM Pool". This way, everyone is on a level playing field, you know the "rules" in advance, you bet knowing that this could happen to you at some point. So Cal racetracks have, on occasion, announced "late gelding announcements" way after betting has started and there's no late scratch, the horse runs and you, as a bettor, have to adjust on the fly, much like a sudden rainstorm makes you adjust on the fly.

There are a lot of strong arguments on either side, and i do applaud the protection of the public (even if its just some of the public) but if you have to hurt part of the public to protect another segment of the public, i think you have to really revisit this idea and ask "what's the most fair solution for ALL the bettors, not just the people who found a way to bet on a horse who lost a shoe".

[senortout]

replace the shoe...I have seen it done ON COURSE! prior to Australian races, why make this a bigger deal than it needs be?

If I might add...imagine...the announcement is made, "Mr Dooley is being attended to as he has lost a (left,right) (front, rear) shoe."

Many people would rush to cancel their bets on Mr. Dooley(at their own loss, no one else's), thereby adding to the lure of this great sport, not detracting from it in an unnatural decision.

[Stillriledup]

replace the shoe...I have seen it done ON COURSE! prior to Australian races, why make this a bigger deal than it needs be?

The logic being that sometimes it takes a long time to replace a shoe, especially if the horse is already at the gate, it wouldnt be fair to the other owners who have a horse who is standing in the gate, these horses need to "go" and run, horses could be more susceptible to injury, not just from being in the gate and possibly banging it, but possibly tying up after having warmed up and then forced to stand still for 10 minutes.

They need to have a farrier right there at the gate with all his tools, than it won't take as long. Tracks delay races for late jock changes, i've seen times where they say a jock cant ride and they drag the horse all the way back to the paddock, get him a new jock, that takes 10 minutes, i've seen it done at Charlestown, so there are situations where a long delay happens.

[raybo]

Just make the announcement, open the betting windows, then unload the gate, then reload the gate and run the race. Does that make too much sense?

[Valuist]

replace the shoe...I have seen it done ON COURSE! prior to Australian races, why make this a bigger deal than it needs be?

If I might add...imagine...the announcement is made, "Mr Dooley is being attended to as he has lost a (left,right) (front, rear) shoe."

Many people would rush to cancel their bets on Mr. Dooley(at their own loss, no one else's), thereby adding to the lure of this great sport, not detracting from it in an unnatural decision.

And it was the last race of the day. Its not as if a delay would've thrown off post times for additional races. I've seen it done at Arlington many times, so it isn't just Australia either.

So the options should be: race AS a betting interest; scratch out and NOT run for purse only, or c) replace the shoe. The worst course of action would be to allow a horse to race for pari-mutuel purposes only.

[Stillriledup]

And it was the last race of the day. Its not as if a delay would've thrown off post times for additional races. I've seen it done at Arlington many times, so it isn't just Australia either.

So the options should be: race AS a betting interest; scratch out and NOT run for purse only, or c) replace the shoe. The worst course of action would be to allow a horse to race for pari-mutuel purposes only.

The Mr Dooley connections were the ones who "messed up" and had their shoe come off and they were not inconvenienced at all, it was the bettors who took it on the chin so the mr dooley connections wouldnt have to...that's really what it comes down to. First and foremost, they protected the connections of the horse while not worrying too much about the bettors who put their blood and heart into this game, not to mention serious amounts of money, people didnt stay up all night structuring pick 4s so that they could be on Mr Dooley and then get shifted to some random horse that they didnt want while MR D was perfectly fine to run.

[cj]

The Mr Dooley connections were the ones who "messed up" and had their shoe come off and they were not inconvenienced at all, it was the bettors who took it on the chin so the mr dooley connections wouldnt have to...that's really what it comes down to. First and foremost, they protected the connections of the horse while not worrying too much about the bettors who put their blood and heart into this game, not to mention serious amounts of money, people didnt stay up all night structuring pick 4s so that they could be on Mr Dooley and then get shifted to some random horse that they didnt want while MR D was perfectly fine to run.

They messed up? Really? Horses lose shoes all the time, and it isn't because they aren't shod properly.

[raybo]

They messed up? Really? Horses lose shoes all the time, and it isn't because they aren't shod properly.

Maybe SRU should take some anger management classes?

[Stillriledup]

They messed up? Really? Horses lose shoes all the time, and it isn't because they aren't shod properly.

That's why i have messed up in quotes, its not the bettors fault the horse lost a shoe....we dont know, it could have been incompetence on the trainers part, or it could have been completely random, but what we do know is that 0 blame goes on the horseplayer for the shoe coming off yet they were the ones who took it on the chin.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The logic being that sometimes it takes a long time to replace a shoe, especially if the horse is already at the gate, it wouldnt be fair to the other owners who have a horse who is standing in the gate, these horses need to "go" and run, horses could be more susceptible to injury, not just from being in the gate and possibly banging it, but possibly tying up after having warmed up and then forced to stand still for 10 minutes.

They need to have a farrier right there at the gate with all his tools, than it won't take as long. Tracks delay races for late jock changes, i've seen times where they say a jock cant ride and they drag the horse all the way back to the paddock, get him a new jock, that takes 10 minutes, i've seen it done at Charlestown, so there are situations where a long delay happens.

Yes, yes. All of this is possible, but it hardly covers every scenario, so it isn't a catch-all solution.

Not every horse is shod with a typical plate using conventional means to affix it to the wall. Some of these horses would need to be dealt with in some way other than a return for repair, so there still needs to be a rule to deal with shoe losses that can't be fixed like most.

[the little guy]

And it was the last race of the day. Its not as if a delay would've thrown off post times for additional races. I've seen it done at Arlington many times, so it isn't just Australia either.

So the options should be: race AS a betting interest; scratch out and NOT run for purse only, or c) replace the shoe. The worst course of action would be to allow a horse to race for pari-mutuel purposes only.

It was not the last race of the day.

[burnsy]

He rolled anyway...changing his name to "Mr. Three Shoes Dooley" or "Mr. Shoeless Dooley.

I was trying to make light of a bad situation. It was not the last race there was one more. So re-doing the shoe is not much of an option, or a rule change to do so, this could happen before ANY race. What are they supposed to do delay the race for 20 minutes? Everyone else is supposed to wait around for this horse? The track can't win in this situation, people are going to bitch either way. If they allow the horse to race (for betting) and it ran like shit.....people would be crying anyway. An unforseeable event like this is not an "equipment change" people decide to make a "change"...throwing a shoe is not a change, its an incident. Like hitting the gate and bleeding. (your out) The rule change should be "You approach the gate without the standard, listed equipment for ANY reason. You are scratched." Running for "purse money" leads to people bitching like this...you will never please them. Plus, a horse running for "purse money only" can change the entire dynamic of the races running...theres actual money on the others. Don't get it because if they do scratch...you still get the shitty conso and the post time fave, people will still be mad but at least they can't make accusations. Simple fix, no ticky, no laundry.......No equipy.....no racey.

[Stillriledup]

I was trying to make light of a bad situation. It was not the last race there was one more. So re-doing the shoe is not much of an option, or a rule change to do so, this could happen before ANY race. What are they supposed to do delay the race for 20 minutes? Everyone else is supposed to wait around for this horse? The track can't win in this situation, people are going to bitch either way. If they allow the horse to race (for betting) and it ran like shit.....people would be crying anyway. An unforseeable event like this is not an "equipment change" people decide to make a "change"...throwing a shoe is not a change, its an incident. Like hitting the gate and bleeding. (your out) The rule change should be "You approach the gate without the standard, listed equipment for ANY reason. You are scratched." Running for "purse money" leads to people bitching like this...you will never please them. Plus, a horse running for "purse money only" can change the entire dynamic of the races running...theres actual money on the others. Don't get it because if they do scratch...you still get the shitty conso and the post time fave, people will still be mad but at least they can't make accusations. Simple fix, no ticky, no laundry.......No equipy.....no racey.

No matter which avenue they choose, there's always going to be crying and complaining. The biggest question is this. Which people who cry have a legit beef and which people who cry do not.

Are the owners of Mr Dooly crying? No, they got to run, no skin off their nose, no money out of their pocket. No crying from the owners of the other runners, they didnt have to sit around, no money out of their pockets either. So, who's pockets lost money because of this incident? The track lost money due to much lower betting pools, fans who bet Mr Dooley didnt lose money, but had to deal with the aggrivation of watching their pick win and being told they didnt have the option to bet on the horse despite knowing he had 3 shoes. If they make an announcement and then delay the race 2 minutes to let people cancel and rebet, Mr Dooley goes UP in price...and, at that point, you, as a horseplayer, can decide if its worth keeping your bet or not.

The people who bet on Mr Dooley in horizontals took it in the shorts, they ended up on a horse they didnt want and the people who bet the race specifically because they didnt like Mr Dooley also took it in the shorts, but, only if they were johnny on the spot and able to cancel their tickets in the 30 seconds they had from the announcement and the start of the race.

Since we don't want a huge delay to fix a shoe, the best idea would be to make the annoucement that Mr Dooley will be running with 3 shoes, and if you want to get your money back, you have to hurry up and do so....that way, its fair for everyone, there's no reason they can't back the horses out, wait 1 minute and then reload them, that will give people at least 2 full minutes to make a decision, i think that would be the fairest situation for all.

[raybo]

I was trying to make light of a bad situation. It was not the last race there was one more. So re-doing the shoe is not much of an option, or a rule change to do so, this could happen before ANY race. What are they supposed to do delay the race for 20 minutes? Everyone else is supposed to wait around for this horse? The track can't win in this situation, people are going to bitch either way. If they allow the horse to race (for betting) and it ran like shit.....people would be crying anyway. An unforseeable event like this is not an "equipment change" people decide to make a "change"...throwing a shoe is not a change, its an incident. Like hitting the gate and bleeding. (your out) The rule change should be "You approach the gate without the standard, listed equipment for ANY reason. You are scratched." Running for "purse money" leads to people bitching like this...you will never please them. Plus, a horse running for "purse money only" can change the entire dynamic of the races running...theres actual money on the others. Don't get it because if they do scratch...you still get the shitty conso and the post time fave, people will still be mad but at least they can't make accusations. Simple fix, no ticky, no laundry.......No equipy.....no racey.

I agree, scratch the horse from the race, period! Unload the gate, open the windows, then reload and close the windows. Isn't this what normally happens when there is a gate scratch, at least at most tracks?

[Stillriledup]

I agree, scratch the horse from the race, period! Unload the gate, open the windows, then reload and close the windows.

What about announcing that the horse will race with 3 shoes and if you want a refund, get on it, you have a 2 minute delay, quick back out, quick walk around and quick reload and Mr Dooley races in the PM pool with 3 shoes. Also, there needs to be disclaimers in the official track programs that says "if a horse loses a shoe at the gate, that horse might still run, we will announce this as soon as we know it and give you a couple minutes to change your bets"

[Saratoga_Mike]

What about announcing that the horse will race with 3 shoes and if you want a refund, get on it, you have a 2 minute delay, quick back out, quick walk around and quick reload and Mr Dooley races in the PM pool with 3 shoes. Also, there needs to be disclaimers in the official track programs that says "if a horse loses a shoe at the gate, that horse might still run, we will announce this as soon as we know it and give you a couple minutes to change your bets"

...well that goes without saying. I mean who could argue?

[burnsy]

I agree, scratch the horse from the race, period! Unload the gate, open the windows, then reload and close the windows. Isn't this what normally happens when there is a gate scratch, at least at most tracks?

I guess we see eye to eye. Its not an equipment change...thats not even a sound ruling. What?, the horse didn't like his shoes so he decided to take them off? Its the same as bucking the gate, throwing the rider, freaking out or countless other "incidents" that cause scratches. I think my rule is better...no equipy....no racey...cut and dry...even an illiterate can understand it. If i bet it, i would be mad that they sort of used a rule "loophole" to run this horse...he didn't have proper LISTED equipment and it was NOT a human decision to change that,,,,,,,,,see ya in 2 weeks!

[raybo]

What about announcing that the horse will race with 3 shoes and if you want a refund, get on it, you have a 2 minute delay, quick back out, quick walk around and quick reload and Mr Dooley races in the PM pool with 3 shoes. Also, there needs to be disclaimers in the official track programs that says "if a horse loses a shoe at the gate, that horse might still run, we will announce this as soon as we know it and give you a couple minutes to change your bets"

I'm with Burnsy, scratch the horse and run the race without him. But, you have to give people time to cancel their bets on the scratched horse and select another one if they so choose. It's the same as any other late gate scratch, unload, open the windows back up, reload and close the windows. If the horse can't be wagered on, then the horse should not be running, regardless of the reason, period.

[cj]

I'm with Burnsy, scratch the horse and run the race without him. But, you have to give people time to cancel their bets on the scratched horse and select another one if they so choose. It's the same as any other late gate scratch, unload, open the windows back up, reload and close the windows. If the horse can't be wagered on, then the horse should not be running, regardless of the reason, period.

NY has always been pretty quick with mishaps at the gate. I'm not saying it is the best way to go, but they are consistent. When something unusual happens, they deal with it quickly and move on. It certainly isn't for financial reasons, because it hurts handle.

[098poi]

If anyone can put up the moments before the race when Tom says Mister Dooley lost a shoe it's worth checking out. As I posted in the early part of the thread I thought he was going to ask for the public's help to find it. Now I can remember some frustration in his voice as he had to make the bizzarro announcement just before the race. I looked at the replay on Twinspires but they just have the race. I don't know where to get pre race videos. Maybe it is just the horses name. If he said, "Bookends has just lost a shoe" (if that was the horses name) it would mean the same thing but Mr. Dooley made it sound like a person or something. Just found it kind of amusing.

[infrontby1]

I agree with the posts from the previous pages, in plain English, SCRATCH the horse.

Does it make sense to have a non-runner for pari-mutuel purposes to have an impact on the pace and more importantly have an impact on how the other runners will finish?

And what about those bettors that keyed this horse on their pick-six tickets? Where do they wind up with? The actual betting favorite; which by the way, ran up the track. I don't know about the others, but it would sting to watch a horse I singled in the Pick-6 cross the wire first, but not considered a runner for the pick-six.

Years ago at Saratoga, I singled an entry in a pick-six where this same scenario happened, but it was the weaker part of the entry that had equipment issues so NYRA decided to scratch the 1A and have the 1 run for purse only. Of course he won the race and the actual betting favorite finished second for betting purposes.

Besides, wasn't there a rule at NYRA a while back that stated that these horses ran for purse money only unless they won the race?

[taxicab]

It's cut and dry.
Whoever was in charge of declaring the horse absolutely blew the call.
If MD needed a shoe repair, then you take as much time as you need to repair the shoe.
Belmont has no choice, it has to be done like this.
Because.....
What happened yesterday was borderline criminal.
Suppose you have MD on your P-6 ticket, there is absolutely nothing wrong with him and the powers that be tell you he's running in the race.
But 30 seconds before the race, the track announces that if you had MD as the horse you selected ( eventually on a winning P-6 ticket ) you don't get him ( the horse you selected ) on your ticket..... instead you get another horse.
The other horse the track had given you didn't win the race, because.....
The horse you selected won the race!!!
So you watch the horse you selected win the race, and the track says "you don't get that horse,you get a different horse that you did not select .....Oh yeah.....Too bad, that's not our problem"......"and even though you selected all 6 winners on a P-6 ticket you only get credit for 5 winners and {1 loser} because a horse that actually ran in one of the races and won ( that you selected ) we are taking away from you and changing your ticket to a losing horse....".

But did Belmont Park even consider this ?
Absolutely not.
They sure as hell considered the owners.....but the bettors ?
Not a chance.

And by the way.
This whole scenario could of been avoided if Belmont would of just not let the horse run.
If the horse wasn't part of the parimutuel field, he shouldn't of been allowed to run in a parimutuel race anyway.
I hope somebody takes them to court.

P.S.....This whole scenario applies to P-4 and other wagers also.

[Stillriledup]

It's cut and dry.
Whoever was in charge of declaring the horse absolutely blew the call.
If MD needed a shoe repair, then you take as much time as you need to repair the shoe.
Belmont has no choice, it has to be done like this.
Because.....
What happened yesterday was borderline criminal.
Suppose you have MD on your P-6 ticket, there is absolutely nothing wrong with him and the powers that be tell you he's running in the race.
But 30 seconds before the race, the track announces that if you had MD as the horse you selected ( eventually on a winning P-6 ticket ) you don't get him ( the horse you selected ) on your ticket..... instead you get another horse.
The other horse the track had given you didn't win the race, because.....
The horse you selected won the race!!!
So you watch the horse you selected win the race, and the track says "you don't get that horse,you get a different horse that you did not select .....Oh yeah.....Too bad, that's not our problem"......"and even though you selected all 6 winners on a P-6 ticket you only get credit for 5 winners and {1 loser} because a horse that actually ran in one of the races and won ( that you selected ) we are taking away from you and changing your ticket to a losing horse....".

But did Belmont Park even consider this ?
Absolutely not.
They sure as hell considered the owners.....but the bettors ?
Not a chance.

And by the way.
This whole scenario could of been avoided if Belmont would of just not let the horse run.
If the horse wasn't part of the parimutuel field, he shouldn't of been allowed to run in a parimutuel race anyway.
I hope somebody takes them to court.

P.S.....This whole scenario applies to P-4 and other wagers also.

WOW, Cabber, Great post, thata baby, showing some passion, gotta love it! You "got up in there" like Leon told Larry to do, great stuff.

I do agree with you, they can't run for purse only, they either have to let the horse run with betting, or scratch the horse out of the race.

They didnt think outside the box, they just thought that they can't let a 3 shoe horse run with bets on the horse because the people who bet on that specific horse deserve a "Fair shake" but, they didnt consider that everything that happens in a race is sort of dependent on other factors, these horses arent running in a vacuum, their presence (or lack thereof) affects other runners in the race.

People put a lot of time and money into handicapping and betting these races, this is serious business not to be taken lightly. I had an amazing note on that horse as a first time starter ...it took me time, effort and money (since time is money) to uncover that horse, what if he had run a much more subpar race in his 2nd start and instead of being 3-1 (or whatever his odds were) he was 8-1 and i bet my lungs on him and then had to watch my note get exposed in that fashion without being able to make a profit on my knowledge? Its similar to the nonsensical coupling rules where you can have a horse you have been waiting for be coupled with someone who you have been waiting to bet against, you're SOL.

There has to be a better way, i think there are at least 3 better options, option one is to let the horse run with 3 shoes and announce to the public he has 3 shoes and if you want to change your bets, hurry and do so. Option 2 is scratch the horse and not let him run and option 3 is to delay the race and fix the shoe. All 3 are better than what they did.

If they want to protect the public, they should protect the owner (from themselves in most cases) and not permit a horse to run with broken equipment...what if that horse slipped or fell and caused an accident? What if the horse's balance was slightly off and he injured himself in the race?

Why is the safety of the horse and jock and other horses and jocks not an issue here? And, if there's 0 percent chance a missing shoe on one foot and 3 shoes on the other feet is not dangerous in anyway, why not just let the horse remain in the race for betting purposes?

[cj]

Anybody happen to notice post time of the last race, and compare to how much daylight was left? Pretty sure the sun isn't around come 7:00 this time of year, and there are no lights.

[Stillriledup]

Could you imagine if Smarty Jones or War Emblem or Charismatic lost a shoe with 1 mtp and they scratched that horse going for the triple crown and let him run for purse money only and he won the Triple crown and all the bettors got refunds and some of the bettors who singled the triple crown winner in the pick 4 or pick 6 got put on some random horse that ran up the track?

It would be a huge mess.

[cj]

Could you imagine if Smarty Jones or War Emblem or Charismatic lost a shoe with 1 mtp and they scratched that horse going for the triple crown and let him run for purse money only and he won the Triple crown and all the bettors got refunds and some of the bettors who singled the triple crown winner in the pick 4 or pick 6 got put on some random horse that ran up the track?

It would be a huge mess.

Yes, I'm sure a Triple Crown race would be treated the same as a MSW late on a Sunday. That makes sense.

[Stillriledup]

Yes, I'm sure a Triple Crown race would be treated the same as a MSW late on a Sunday. That makes sense.

Rules are rules, no? If "State law" that says a horse with 3 shoes has to run for purse only, don't you have your hands tied as a judge?

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, I'm sure a Triple Crown race would be treated the same as a MSW late on a Sunday. That makes sense.Do I get paid more or less based on the importance of the race when I cash?

[cj]

Do I get paid more or less based on the importance of the race when I cash?

I understand that point, but we all know darn well the horse would have his shoe fixed and run as part of the parimutuel field if it were an important race. It is just the way it is, and it isn't wrong IMO. You don't see instant replay in pee wee football, and high baseball has less umpires than college, college less than pros, and so on.

My personal opinion is horses like this should be scratched, just like the entry thing. If somebody has an entry and half scratches, they knew that was a possibility going in. There should be no horses run "for purse money only". I'm just saying I understand why it was done, not that I think it is a good rule.

Nobody thinks time of day was a factor? Am I wrong about it being nearly dark when racing was completed?

[cj]

Rules are rules, no? If "State law" that says a horse with 3 shoes has to run for purse only, don't you have your hands tied as a judge?

I'm saying a new shoe would have been put on. Just the way it is...

[Grits]

Anybody happen to notice post time of the last race, and compare to how much daylight was left? Pretty sure the sun isn't around come 7:00 this time of year, and there are no lights.

Watched the problem, watched the race. Anybody? Yes, sure, this didn't go unnoticed. The late hour was discussed at length by Simon Bray, who was livid for the treatment shown to bettors. He understood time was a factor, the sun was setting, and possibly had a part in the decision.

NYRA, in all honesty, though, may want to rethink carding 11 races in the Fall of the year at Belmont when days are getting much shorter. Either this or move up post time. Its really hard to come up with justification for the decision. I'm sorry but this was a bad deal.

[BlueShoe]

Anybody happen to notice post time of the last race, and compare to how much daylight was left? .
The 11th and last went off at 6:25. Sunset was at 6:41 with twilight at 7:09. How long and how much delay would have a reshoe taken, 10-15 minutes? It could have been done and the last race post rime moved up to get it off before dark, right around sunset.

[Stillriledup]

I understand that point, but we all know darn well the horse would have his shoe fixed and run as part of the parimutuel field if it were an important race. It is just the way it is, and it isn't wrong IMO. You don't see instant replay in pee wee football, and high baseball has less umpires than college, college less than pros, and so on.

My personal opinion is horses like this should be scratched, just like the entry thing. If somebody has an entry and half scratches, they knew that was a possibility going in. There should be no horses run "for purse money only". I'm just saying I understand why it was done, not that I think it is a good rule.

Nobody thinks time of day was a factor? Am I wrong about it being nearly dark when racing was completed?

every race is equally important to bettors, bettors get no part of the purse earnings of the winning horse in a 600k race, so they don't care about owners "big races", every race i bet is a "big race" to me, and that's all i care about.

[letswastemoney]

I'd have kept the 3 shoe horse on my ticket if given that option rather than the consolation. It would just be part of the risk of betting. Your horse could lose a shoe in the post parade, and there may not be time to put it back on, just as your horse's saddle could slip during the race, etc.

[Mineshaft]

The track was getting dark and it didn't have time for the horse to get another shoe plain and simple. The horse should of been scratched period. It sucked that you had him in the Pick 4 and Pick 6. Those things happen.

[Tom]

The only ones who made out ok were the owner, trainer and jockey.
They all got paid.

Customers did not. Not a good business model.

[burnsy]

The track was getting dark and it didn't have time for the horse to get another shoe plain and simple. The horse should of been scratched period. It sucked that you had him in the Pick 4 and Pick 6. Those things happen.

Exactly, if you have been betting for any length of time you realize this. It sucks, but you are not betting on robots. You can't run the horse, it changes the race for people that bet the others. Its not their fault one horse threw a shoe......so you can't expect them to sit around waiting either. The horses are warmed up and ready to go. The delays other people are talking about are retarded....they are not fair to the others. I won't bet those cheap tracks (they are cheap) and because they do garbage like that. Every one wait around we got to fix the whack job that threw a shoe or it was not affixed right to begin with? Does not matter if its the Belmont or a Maiden Claimer........no equipment........no race start for you. Is Peyton Manning going on the field in the SB without a helmet or cleats? Would the official run the clock? This pass is for purse money only??????:lol: No proper equipment=ineligible..period!.no purse money....no start!..too simple for some, i guess.

Plus, no one answered my questioning of the stupid ruling. HOW DOES THIS QUALIFY AS AN EQUIPMENT CHANGE? It is not! The trainer changes equipment. I never once in my life heard of a horse determining what equipment they use. What do they do? Tell the trainer..."i want to run with three shoes today." I need blinkers.........i need a bar shoe. Are these horses Mr. Ed. ?The ruling is flawed from step one to the gate to begin with. :bang:
Mr. Dooley decided to run with 3 shoes.......=...........equipment change. :lol:

[cj]

Exactly, if you have been betting for any length of time you realize this. It sucks, but you are not betting on robots. You can't run the horse, it changes the race for people that bet the others. Its not their fault one horse threw a shoe......

This I don't buy. All the people that bet the race did so assuming Mr. Dooley would be in the race, right? Scratching him and running right away changes the dynamics of the race, not having him run for purse money only.

[Grits]

The delays other people are talking about are retarded....

You just took a nose dive, dude. You're just not bright enough to know it. Hate it for you.

[Valuist]

This I don't buy. All the people that bet the race did so assuming Mr. Dooley would be in the race, right? Scratching him and running right away changes the dynamics of the race, not having him run for purse money only.

Every time there's a late scratch it potentially changes the pace scenario. Thats the risk we take by betting.

We cannot have a situation where a horse is deemed that it can't be wagered on, but it can still race. Either race as a part of the field, or you cannot run. Or fix the damned shoe. Usually the delays are no more than 10 minutes.

I was not affected by the result, but I empathize with anyone who was. They were screwed, plain and simple.

[Valuist]

One other thing, this is the type of problem that causes people to abandon a track, or the game entirely. The takeout is already a severe obstacle. But the biggest salt-in the wound rubbing would have to be to watch a horse that one was alive to in a P4, P6 or P3; watch it win and not be able to collect when one had that horse on their ticket. We aren't crazy about late scratches but sometimes they are warranted.

Yes I know the folks in Albany thought "they were looking out for the public". Great...with friends like that, who needs enemies?

[cj]

Every time there's a late scratch it potentially changes the pace scenario. Thats the risk we take by betting.

We cannot have a situation where a horse is deemed that it can't be wagered on, but it can still race. Either race as a part of the field, or you cannot run. Or fix the damned shoe. Usually the delays are no more than 10 minutes.

I was not affected by the result, but I empathize with anyone who was. They were screwed, plain and simple.

Like I've said, I agree these horses should be scratched. I've said it a few times now. I just was pointing out that the race dynamics did not change because this horse was allowed to run. It is just the opposite.

[098poi]

They finally found Mr. Dooley's shoe!

[Stillriledup]

Mr D won his "Purse Only" Race over a year ago and since then, he's had 9 starts and the best finish he's managed was 5th.

He's racing shortly at the Big A. Maybe he can shock the world? The race isn't all that great, he' sin with a light weight, never say never!

[KirisClown]

Say never for Mr Dooley...

If you played the old "Taylor Rice finally off" angle.. you cashed in on the $40 winner..