Internet Wagering

[Track Phantom]

I admit I haven't delved too deep into the laws so my question might be a bit naïve.

Who (specifically) does not want internet wagering on horse racing to exist and for what purpose?

What would happen to racing if EVERY state followed the Texas path and eliminated the ability to wager online? Would racing cease?

I guess I'm somewhat confused by the direction this is going. I would think we would be more progressive, not less. Are there factions that want racing to go away that are behind this?

I'd appreciate those in the know to chime in as I am clueless on this.

[thespaah]

I admit I haven't delved too deep into the laws so my question might be a bit naïve.

Who (specifically) does not want internet wagering on horse racing to exist and for what purpose?

What would happen to racing if EVERY state followed the Texas path and eliminated the ability to wager online? Would racing cease?

I guess I'm somewhat confused by the direction this is going. I would think we would be more progressive, not less. Are there factions that want racing to go away that are behind this?

I'd appreciate those in the know to chime in as I am clueless on this.
This may offer some insight.
http://www.drf.com/news/online-gambling-gets-slow-steady-push-us

[davew]

many states do not want you able to bet on races ran in that state - you need to attend the racetrack

a couple states feel you should go to the simultcast centers in their state to bet


and then there are the states that do not even allow betting at racetracks

[Track Phantom]

many states do not want you able to bet on races ran in that state - you need to attend the racetrack

a couple states feel you should go to the simultcast centers in their state to bet


and then there are the states that do not even allow betting at racetracks

The "what" is not the question....the "why" is.

[redshift1]

The burgeoning Texas racing industry is a testament to the policies and practices of Texas government.

[Pensacola Pete]

The Bible Belters are the ones who want all gambling...including the lottery....out of Texas. They're realistic and know they can't kill the lottery, so they go after everything else.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

The Texas decision doesn't make a lot of sense. As big as that state is, you'd think they'd consider a distance limitation to a local track, if trying to protect their business is one of the goals. Think of all the money they've lost with El Paso residents going to Sunland Park. Missouri is the same way - losing money to race tracks just over the border - and I'm sure there are more examples.

Rather than thinking "who is against internet wagering?", the question that maybe should be asked is "who isn't getting their palm greased?" There's some political scenario that's in the way of making it worth their time.

Horse racing on the internet is similar to the Federal ban on sports betting, with the exception of Nevada, but of course on a much smaller scale. The Feds tied that up in a neat bow with the 1961 wire act, which IMHO was really intended to protect the bookies and the mob. Lots of money bet on sports, and a lot of that handle winds up as protection money paid to the local law enforcement agencies.....

[burnsy]

The Bible Belters are the ones who want all gambling...including the lottery....out of Texas. They're realistic and know they can't kill the lottery, so they go after everything else.

RANT ALERT :mad:

Its not just Texas and its not just Horse racing. This country is full of back woods, bible thumping, know it alls. They shut down the poker wagering, i know people that lost their accounts when that happened(with money in them). You can't really bet sports, all of the accounts are in different countries and its a pain in the ass to collect when you win. You know the folks that bitch about the "Taliban" and such but if they had their way we wouldn't be drinking, gambling,have guns, have birth control or spitting in the street for that matter. Freedom to some people means what they decide it is for you. In other words certain (religious) groups get to dictate how YOU live your life, spend your free time and your money. Pensacola Pete is dead on, they will use "side" excuses to outlaw any internet gaming they can. Yet, almost every other country will allow it. Thats why all these gaming sites are off shore. Next time you hear one of these morons crying about the Taliban.....ask them who they are talking about.......because we go to wars over it but they are thriving like "crabgass" in this country. In the year 2013 you can't bet from the comfort of your home and people sit there waving the flag, telling you how great we are and all the other nationalistic garbage they are fed from birth. At the same time they will attempt to outlaw, gaming, drinking (booze, beer and soda), birth control, guns, smoking pot, same sex marriage and anything else they deem a "sin"............Its pretty sickening if you like to be free and scary that not many people see anything wrong with it. The American Taliban is alive and well, wave your flags suckers....we are spending a fortune to spread this "freedom" around the world and you can't even sit on your ass here and do what you want to do...we live in the "we know whats best for you society" and many of these pathetic sheep like it that way. Won't go anywhere near a church...not that i don't believe...its because its so perverted the first thing they do is judge everyone else and thats the last thing you are supposed to do....then they want your money.........The country that reverted to morons......and nobody cares...thats the real sin. Texas is full of them too. Look at that wacko governor they have....the monkey they had before that, he became president. That jack ass (Mitt) they ran for president last time and then they sit there and wonder how Obama wins and someone like him (Obama) will have you wearing a helmet when you take a dump............Keep listening to the "liberals" and the "conservatives" and keep getting what you deserve...The opposing "American" versions of the "Taliban." Land of the Free....yeah, BULL and SH!T!

[usedtolovetvg]

RANT ALERT :mad:

Its not just Texas and its not just Horse racing. This country is full of back woods, bible thumping, know it alls. They shut down the poker wagering, i know people that lost their accounts when that happened(with money in them). You can't really bet sports, all of the accounts are in different countries and its a pain in the ass to collect when you win. You know the folks that bitch about the "Taliban" and such but if they had their way we wouldn't be drinking, gambling,have guns, have birth control or spitting in the street for that matter. Freedom to some people means what they decide it is for you. In other words certain (religious) groups get to dictate how YOU live your life, spend your free time and your money. Pensacola Pete is dead on, they will use "side" excuses to outlaw any internet gaming they can. Yet, almost every other country will allow it. Thats why all these gaming sites are off shore. Next time you hear one of these morons crying about the Taliban.....ask them who they are talking about.......because we go to wars over it but they are thriving like "crabgass" in this country. In the year 2013 you can't bet from the comfort of your home and people sit there waving the flag, telling you how great we are and all the other nationalistic garbage they are fed from birth. At the same time they will attempt to outlaw, gaming, drinking (booze, beer and soda), birth control, guns, smoking pot, same sex marriage and anything else they deem a "sin"............Its pretty sickening if you like to be free and scary that not many people see anything wrong with it. The American Taliban is alive and well, wave your flags suckers....we are spending a fortune to spread this "freedom" around the world and you can't even sit on your ass here and do what you want to do...we live in the "we know whats best for you society" and many of these pathetic sheep like it that way. Won't go anywhere near a church...not that i don't believe...its because its so perverted the first thing they do is judge everyone else and thats the last thing you are supposed to do....then they want your money.........The country that reverted to morons......and nobody cares...thats the real sin. Texas is full of them too. Look at that wacko governor they have....the monkey they had before that, he became president. That jack ass (Mitt) they ran for president last time and then they sit there and wonder how Obama wins and someone like him (Obama) will have you wearing a helmet when you take a dump............Keep listening to the "liberals" and the "conservatives" and keep getting what you deserve...The opposing "American" versions of the "Taliban." Land of the Free....yeah, BULL and SH!T!

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[DeanT]

The "what" is not the question....the "why" is.

It mainly stems from the Interstate Horse Racing Act. Horsemen groups are given power to withhold signals etc, so there are negotiations based on what happens with any signal.

For a long time now, and this is reaching a crescendo, there is a narrative that if someone gets a larger piece of a shrinking pie it can grow your revenues. So there is a push to: get more people on track to play in higher takeout, charge higher fees (like a huge tax in VA), penalize out of state bet takers, like NY just did with their 5% betting tax, and of course Texas and AZ.

It's difficult for anyone to see this capable of working in the long run, but it seems to be the push almost everywhere.

[wle]

Michigan is one state that had always been years behind when it comes to horse racing...took forever to even get simulcasting approved. The Detroit casinos opened, and eventually horse racing was moved from the Dept of Agriculture to the Gaming Commission, who could give a shit about racing. In response to a letter sent to them about internet wagering, this is the response given:

The Attorney General is in receipt of your June 30 email regarding advanced deposit wagering (ADW) and horse racing. The Attorney General appreciates hearing from citizens on matters of public concern. Due to the subject matter of your complaint, it has been referred to this office for a response.

Currently ADW and internet wagering is prohibited under the Horse Racing Act. MCL 431.317(7) states:

Any act or transaction relative to pari-mutuel wagering on the results of live or simulcast horse races SHALL ONLY occur or be permitted to occur within the enclosure of a licensed race meeting. A person shall not participate or be a party to any act or transaction relative to placing a wager or carrying a wager for placement outside of a race meeting ground. A person shall not provide messenger service for the placing of a bet for another person who is not a patron. (EMPHASIS ADDED)

State law is not, however, the only barrier to ADW and internet wagering. There are several federal anti-gambling statutes that may be implicated.

The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (UIGEA), 31 U.S.C. § 5361, prohibits betting, receiving or transmitting a bet that is illegal under federal, state or tribal law. The Travel Act prohibits use of interstate commerce to further an unlawful activity. See 18 U.S.C. § 1952(a). Similarly, the Illegal Gambling Business Act prohibits gambling operations in violation of state law where the gambling is conducted. 18 U.S.C. § 1955.

Moreover, even if the Michigan legislature adopted legislation to authorize off-track betting, the new law would arguably trigger the constitutional voter requirement laid out in Mich. Const. Art IV §41 requiring “approval of a majority of electors voting in a statewide general election … where the gambling will take place.”

Once again, thank you for taking the time to share your concerns with the Attorney General.

[PaceAdvantage]

RANT ALERT :mad:

Its not just Texas and its not just Horse racing. This country is full of back woods, bible thumping, know it alls. They shut down the poker wagering, i know people that lost their accounts when that happened(with money in them). You can't really bet sports, all of the accounts are in different countries and its a pain in the ass to collect when you win. You know the folks that bitch about the "Taliban" and such but if they had their way we wouldn't be drinking, gambling,have guns, have birth control or spitting in the street for that matter. Freedom to some people means what they decide it is for you. In other words certain (religious) groups get to dictate how YOU live your life, spend your free time and your money. Pensacola Pete is dead on, they will use "side" excuses to outlaw any internet gaming they can. Yet, almost every other country will allow it. Thats why all these gaming sites are off shore. Next time you hear one of these morons crying about the Taliban.....ask them who they are talking about.......because we go to wars over it but they are thriving like "crabgass" in this country. In the year 2013 you can't bet from the comfort of your home and people sit there waving the flag, telling you how great we are and all the other nationalistic garbage they are fed from birth. At the same time they will attempt to outlaw, gaming, drinking (booze, beer and soda), birth control, guns, smoking pot, same sex marriage and anything else they deem a "sin"............Its pretty sickening if you like to be free and scary that not many people see anything wrong with it. The American Taliban is alive and well, wave your flags suckers....we are spending a fortune to spread this "freedom" around the world and you can't even sit on your ass here and do what you want to do...we live in the "we know whats best for you society" and many of these pathetic sheep like it that way. Won't go anywhere near a church...not that i don't believe...its because its so perverted the first thing they do is judge everyone else and thats the last thing you are supposed to do....then they want your money.........The country that reverted to morons......and nobody cares...thats the real sin. Texas is full of them too. Look at that wacko governor they have....the monkey they had before that, he became president. That jack ass (Mitt) they ran for president last time and then they sit there and wonder how Obama wins and someone like him (Obama) will have you wearing a helmet when you take a dump............Keep listening to the "liberals" and the "conservatives" and keep getting what you deserve...The opposing "American" versions of the "Taliban." Land of the Free....yeah, BULL and SH!T!I love how you selectively target "conservatives" and Republicans (you specifically reference GW Bush, Perry and Romney {who by the way has nothing to do really with Texas, yet you throw him in the mix anyway, for what reason I don't know}).

Perhaps you can point out the enlightened liberal Democrats who have opened the floodgates to online wagering in their state? Where can I bet poker and sports online legally in the US? I think Vegas has some sort of limited legal online poker, or will shortly, is that correct?

Where else? There are plenty of states with left-leaning, liberal governors and legislatures in place...you must be able to name a bunch of states where online gambling is alive and well...legally...in the US. No, you can't?

So why do you point fingers solely at conservative right wingers?

Your rant makes little sense in that regard, plus it's totally inappropriate for the horse racing section...especially when it's pretty much dead wrong.

[GMB@BP]

The Bible Belters are the ones who want all gambling...including the lottery....out of Texas. They're realistic and know they can't kill the lottery, so they go after everything else.

Its not only Bible Belters, but in Arizona for example you have a large Mormon contingency which would eliminate all alcohol of they could get it past, much less gambling on the internet.

But lets be real here, there were other factors that led to AZ issue, it came from the ownership group at Turf Paradise, and their "connections".

[Robert Goren]

Its not only Bible Belters, but in Arizona for example you have a large Mormon contingency which would eliminate all alcohol of they could get it past, much less gambling on the internet.

But lets be real here, there were other factors that led to AZ issue, it came from the ownership group at Turf Paradise, and their "connections". Does Turf Paradise have enough money to get the Arizona legislature to act? I doubt it. It is to demonize the tracks, but the truth is that they don't have the power to do much of anything these days. They have nothing to offer the politicians, They have neither votes nor money. The Bible Belters and the Mormons have plenty of both.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Does Turf Paradise have enough money to get the Arizona legislature to act? I doubt it....

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2001/mar/22/with-friends-these/?page=1&

Read that and tell me if you think it's just nutty to think that "Turf Paradise" could get politicians to "act".

[GMB@BP]

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2001/mar/22/with-friends-these/?page=1&

Read that and tell me if you think it's just nutty to think that "Turf Paradise" could get politicians to "act".

Thanks,

I dont want to say too much on the internet but the post prior to yours is so backwards from the actual reality of what happened.

[usedtolovetvg]

Indian Casinos

[Dave Schwartz]

My take would be that it is all about tax money. When you bet at the track, the state gets a cut of every bet. When you bet from home they only get a cut from the money wagered at the local track.

Couple that with the fact that many tracks are angling for slots and you need the customer in the joint - and never forget, they are ALL just joints - to play slots.

[TJDave]

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2001/mar/22/with-friends-these/?page=1&

Read that and tell me if you think it's just nutty to think that "Turf Paradise" could get politicians to "act".

How Glick and Lefty managed to stay alive for all those years I find amazing.

[Robert Goren]

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2001/mar/22/with-friends-these/?page=1&

Read that and tell me if you think it's just nutty to think that "Turf Paradise" could get politicians to "act".A lot has changed since 2001. I believe Turf Paradise still has not been able to get slots. Correct me if I am wrong. Of this I am sure, any power that Turf Paradise has is going to be used to get slots, not stop small potatoes things like internet wager on horse racing. The one thing that horse race bettors keep over estimating is their value in dollars and cents. Nobody cares about them anymore except the Zealots who are trying to save their souls. Sad, but true. The real money is in slots and race tracks only real value today is as a foot in the door to get slots.

[johnhannibalsmith]

A lot has changed since 2001. I believe Turf Paradise still has not been able to get slots. Correct me if I am wrong. Of this I am sure, any power that Turf Paradise has is going to be used to get slots, not stop small potatoes things like internet wager on horse racing. ...

There are a couple of problems. Both of which have prevented TuP from getting slots, thankfully. Number one is outlined in the article. The owner can't get a gaming license. Of course, using straw men and such is right there in the past performances, so it isn't a deal breaker, but it complicates things.

Just before the account wagering law had "teeth put into it", voters in the state were given a referendum to vote on. It essentially said "vote this way if you want tracks to have slots and Indian casinos to basically become as large and unregulated as the mind can imagine" or "vote this way if you want to keep Indian casinos relatively regulated, but they get a monopoly on the game for almost eternity."

So while tracks could conceivably get slots (though I doubt it given destroying the industry and crying for help still hasn't worked), if they do, it means rapid and massive expansion for Indian gaming. I know Mr. Simms styles himself a real crafty businessman and alleged self-made millionaire, but I hate to say, that after watching him in action for the last good long while, I'd be betting on the Indians to hand him his ass in that competitive market.

Detective, I don't mind conceding that the "bible thumpers" have an influence on these decisions. They do everywhere. But in neither case are they the explanation. Even in several paragraphs here, I've condensed the totality of the events into something as small as possible for the sake of the post. But suffice it to say, in the case of the account law - in my opinion, if you want a very simple explanation to hang your hat on it because it's too much to look at the whole thing: The guy doesn't like to negotiate and doesn't like to think he's lost. He owns the OTB network in the state. He doesn't use computers, he admits it readily.

This was simple coercion to attempt to funnel this believed glut of uncontrollable horse bettors into his properties and in turn, direct the most money into his pocket. The track needed to fix the account wagering law somehow (to paraphrase the way it was written -"wagers may only be made/accepted within a licensed enclosure")- it didn't address the situation as it existed and how the tracks could make a buck on it. But the solution, which yes, was sponsored by Turf Paradise, and supported by Yavapai Downs and the AZHBPA, was to add language not to clarify or define revenue percentages from account wagering and fun stuff like that, but to make it clear that you MUST bet in Jerry's house or you're a felon. If you try to move in on Jerry's action, you're a felon. Shakedown street. Any wild-eyed bible thumpers were just gravy - more clueless idiots without a cause serving a useful idiot function to Simms, just like Yavapai and the AZHBPA.

[Robert Goren]

You have sort of have case, but remember it cost a lot of money to get a law passed if you don't have control of a large bloc of voters. Two things get things done at the state level, the spreading around of money and the ability to deliver voters.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

The lost accounts were not legal.

It is one thing to complain about the law, and to try to get it changed, I'm all for it.

But to complain about lost money in an illegal account is not a fair rant.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

... But the solution, which yes, was sponsored by Turf Paradise, and supported by Yavapai Downs and the AZHBPA, was to add language not to clarify or define revenue percentages from account wagering and fun stuff like that, but to make it clear that you MUST bet in Jerry's house or you're a felon. If you try to move in on Jerry's action, you're a felon. Shakedown street. Any wild-eyed bible thumpers were just gravy - more clueless idiots without a cause serving a useful idiot function to Simms, just like Yavapai and the AZHBPA.

Makes perfect sense. It's the same story, different chapter in almost every state that allows horse racing. A constant battle between those currently "in control" with those trying to horn in all the while the squeezing the consumers for all they're worth.

As much as Americans would like to think differently, this country is no better than how business is usually done and controlled by the Evil Eye in southern Italy or almost anywhere else on the planet.

[Track Phantom]

The point of this thread was to try and identify WHO (specifically) does not want people to be allowed to wager on horse racing via the internet.

Unless I missed it in this thread, no one really has a straight answer. I think we should "follow the money" to find out who is really behind this push.

In my opinion, it is not the religious (gambling is the devil's work) people. I can't imagine the race tracks (Lone Star, Retama, Sam Houston) really believe this will drive people in droves to their facility, do they?

[Dave Schwartz]

I dunno about that. I thought I said it pretty clearly:

My take would be that it is all about tax money. When you bet at the track, the state gets a cut of every bet. When you bet from home they only get a cut from the money wagered at the local track.

Couple that with the fact that many tracks are angling for slots and you need the customer in the joint - and never forget, they are ALL just joints - to play slots.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Other gambling venues and establishments?

They would rather see you spend your gambling money on lottery or casinos perhaps. Just a guess.

[raybo]

Dave is correct, at least regarding what is happening in Texas. The Texas state government wants their piece if the pie, for every dollar wagered by Texas residents, that means only at the track. They get nothing from ADW wagers. But then, look at all the money they lose because people won't travel many miles to go to the track and either jump across the state line to a closer track or OTB, or wager offshore over the internet. Millions of wagering dollars are lost by Texas tracks, which means that state taxes on those millions are lost by the state government. Who wins, the state, or the tracks, or the bettors? Nobody, everybody loses!

No, it's not the Bible thumpers, it's the money hungry people who run this state. But hey, it's fine to gamble on the lottery and the scratch-offs at the store down the street, because the state gets their money.

[ElKabong]

In my opinion, it is not the religious (gambling is the devil's work) people. I can't imagine the race tracks (Lone Star, Retama, Sam Houston) really believe this will drive people in droves to their facility, do they?

Yes, the original ownership / management of LS thought this very thing. Had many a conversation with LS mngmnt in the late 90s early aughts, the common thread of their replies were "we need the bettors in the building to make a profit off our product"

LS catered to the first time patrons for years, but they also wanted to force the regular bettors to drive there and pay for parking, carrels, admission, etc. Losing them meant losing $$ or leaving it on the table

[GMB@BP]

http://www.drf.com/news/arizona-legislature-passes-account-wagering-bill

[raybo]

http://www.drf.com/news/arizona-legislature-passes-account-wagering-bill

That's great, but getting the ADWs to pay fees to the tracks doesn't look promising.

[AndyC]

I am neither a Bible thumper nor a Morman but I have a problem with a person's "right" to partake in their vice of choice when they come back and expect that everybody else should take care of their healthcare, feed them and provide shelter after they have ruined their lives through their own actions. I am all for a person's right to do just about anything they desire provided that the consequences are borne by the individual and that others aren't harmed in the process.

If you were a legislator and had to vote on whether or not gambling improved the quality of life in your state would it be easy to say yes? I think many vote for gambling because their state's finances are in dire straights and they are looking for a quick fix.

[raybo]

I am neither a Bible thumper nor a Morman but I have a problem with a person's "right" to partake in their vice of choice when they come back and expect that everybody else should take care of their healthcare, feed them and provide shelter after they have ruined their lives through their own actions. I am all for a person's right to do just about anything they desire provided that the consequences are borne by the individual and that others aren't harmed in the process.

If you were a legislator and had to vote on whether or not gambling improved the quality of life in your state would it be easy to say yes? I think many vote for gambling because their state's finances are in dire straights and they are looking for a quick fix.

I agree, but those same people don't seem to have a problem with Bingo or Lottery tickets. What's the difference, it's all gambling?

[GMB@BP]

That's great, but getting the ADWs to pay fees to the tracks doesn't look promising.


Good point but I doubt it has to be much of a percentage.