Riders that don't ride

[FantasticDan]

How frustrating is it to watch a jock coast around the oval on your pick and never really ask the horse for its best? This has happened to me a lot lately, and I find myself looking like this after the race :confused: :mad:

Obviously, I understand not persevering on a horse that's set wicked fractions and is stopping badly late in the race.. or any other valid reason for not vigorously riding late in the game.

I guess it's the lazy riding I'm talking about.. never really setting the horse down. Or one hand on the reigns while still up in the saddle as you come down the stretch..

I know they have a very tough, dangerous job, and I don't like to criticize professionals that know more about the job than I ever will..

But still. I just like to see max effort when max effort is called for. And I don't always seem to get it.

[TJDave]

This game would be a lot easier if they just strapped some monkeys up there.

Sorry, Tom.

[Greyfox]

How frustrating is it to watch a jock coast around the oval on your pick and never really ask the horse for its best? This has happened to me a lot lately, and I find myself looking like this after the race :confused: :mad:

.

Unfortunately that's horse racing.
Sometimes it's the horse itself that won't "go."
Sometimes the barn has spotted something they don't like, perhaps odds too low.
Sometimes, they are setting it up for a future sincere effort.
That's why one always has to ask: "Why is this horse in this race?"
In Hong Kong though, jockeys are called in by the stewards when they appear not to be making a sincere try.
Perhaps that should happen more in North America.

[thaskalos]

Unfortunately that's horse racing.
Sometimes it's the horse itself that won't "go."
Sometimes the barn has spotted something they don't like, perhaps odds too low.
Sometimes, they are setting it up for a future sincere effort.
That's why one always has to ask: "Why is this horse in this race?"
In Hong Kong though, jockeys are called in by the stewards when they appear not to be making a sincere try.
Perhaps that should happen more in North America.

Whenever the jockey of a contending horse is not giving his mount at least a vigorous hand ride down the stretch...there should be stiff fines for both the jockey and the trainer.

It's called INTEGRITY...something that this game sorely lacks.

[Stillriledup]

How frustrating is it to watch a jock coast around the oval on your pick and never really ask the horse for its best? This has happened to me a lot lately, and I find myself looking like this after the race :confused: :mad:

Obviously, I understand not persevering on a horse that's set wicked fractions and is stopping badly late in the race.. or any other valid reason for not vigorously riding late in the game.

I guess it's the lazy riding I'm talking about.. never really setting the horse down. Or one hand on the reigns while still up in the saddle as you come down the stretch..

I know they have a very tough, dangerous job, and I don't like to criticize professionals that know more about the job than I ever will..

But still. I just like to see max effort when max effort is called for. And I don't always seem to get it.

This happens SO often at Belmont, its really frustrating. I had a guy a few days ago who basically wrapped up a horse at the top of the lane, hand rode the horse the entire lane like he was "easing" the horse and was in a DH for 4th and cost me money in the super as i would have obviously gotten more if the guy was a clean 4th.

[tanner12oz]

Alot of jocks seem like they wanna win but have no interest in getting a horse to hold for a minor award or get up for a minor award

[Stillriledup]

Alot of jocks seem like they wanna win but have no interest in getting a horse to hold for a minor award or get up for a minor award

And, jocks who are notorious for easing up beaten mounts do it so often that i believe they're communicating to the horse that you don't really have to give your best, horses sense this type of jock and its kind of like getting what you wish for...jocks who don't want to 'earn their paycheck' seem to have more 'eased up' mounts than other guys.

[JustRalph]

This game would be a lot easier if they just strapped some monkeys up there.

Sorry, Tom.

http://sabbah.biz/mt/images/kamelrobotjockey1.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/04/20/robot_tech_apr20,0.jpg

[TheEdge07]

Whenever the jockey of a contending horse is not giving his mount at least a vigorous hand ride down the stretch...there should be stiff fines for both the jockey and the trainer.

It's called INTEGRITY...something that this game sorely lacks.


We keep coming back..

[olddaddy]

Alot of jocks seem like they wanna win but have no interest in getting a horse to hold for a minor award or get up for a minor award


Thats is why I rarely make vertical bets.

[Cannon shell]

Whenever the jockey of a contending horse is not giving his mount at least a vigorous hand ride down the stretch...there should be stiff fines for both the jockey and the trainer.

It's called INTEGRITY...something that this game sorely lacks.
You are going to fine the trainer because of the actions of the jockey?

[kinznk]

I went to BHP this summer and watched the jocks come off the track. I hear Stevens tell the trainer that his horse lost a shoe. A fan about 30 feet away screams at Stevens for being a coward. I'm not saying that what the guy did was right or wrong.

One thing that I would like in horse racing is a show that is honest about what is happening on the track. By honest I don't mean telling the truth but honest in criticism and praise of jocks and discussion with them about what happened in the race. I have never played any high level of football or rode a horse faster than a trot. But sure know a heck of a lot more about how to play football based on all the information shows that look honestly at the players and tell you what happens. Now we get an interview with a jock after a race and we get the same things, "He ran a good race" "We got caught in traffic down the stretch" "He's a good horse" yadda yadda yadda.

I would like a jockey to break down races and talk about reasons why or why not someone did or did not make a move or how well a rider got a horse to change leads and how they did it.

Horse racing seems like a fraternity so this won't happen, plus the market for it is probably about 350 people.

[menifee]

There are jockeys who are notorious for not riding their horse for minor placings if they see cannot they win. KD being the most famous. To my knowledge, he has never been suspended or fined for failure to ride the horse to the wire. This is so frustrating as a bettor and the stewards/track management could care less.

[Stillriledup]

You are going to fine the trainer because of the actions of the jockey?

If the trainer gets fined for the jock "pulling a Kent" he's not likely to use that jock in the future or certainly not as much. This is why Guys in the military have to do pushups if one of their bunkmates (or, whatever its called) screws up. People are less likely to make mistakes if they know other people will be punished for their transgressions. Its a great idea.

[Robert Goren]

This thread is a good example on why they should do away with place, show and vertical betting. Sorry, but there is something terribly wrong in my book about forcing a jockey to fight for a minor award when he is on a tired beaten horse. It sounds like a good way to get a horse injured.
Why is it nobody ever gripes about a jockey not pushing a closer up to fourth? It is always about some horse fading. I sure somebody will now find a post about that, but they are pretty rare.

[Cannon shell]

If the trainer gets fined for the jock "pulling a Kent" he's not likely to use that jock in the future or certainly not as much. This is why Guys in the military have to do pushups if one of their bunkmates (or, whatever its called) screws up. People are less likely to make mistakes if they know other people will be punished for their transgressions. Its a great idea.
Were you drinking when you used this logic?

[the little guy]

This happens SO often at Belmont, its really frustrating. I had a guy a few days ago who basically wrapped up a horse at the top of the lane, hand rode the horse the entire lane like he was "easing" the horse and was in a DH for 4th and cost me money in the super as i would have obviously gotten more if the guy was a clean 4th.

Please give me the name of the horse, the date, and the race.

[TheEdge07]

Please give me the name of the horse, the date, and the race.

Are you saying it doesnt happen in the nyra circuit?

[the little guy]

Are you saying it doesnt happen it doesnt happen in the nyra circuit?

What am I saying?

I asked him a question. Surely that was obvious.

[FantasticDan]

Are you saying it doesnt happen it doesnt happen in the nyra circuit?Of course he's not saying that. Anyone who follows TLG's twitter or watches him on TV knows it's not the least bit unusual for him to take issue with a particular ride.

[TheEdge07]

Of course he's not saying that. Anyone who follows TLG's twitter or watches him on TV knows it's not the least bit unusual for him to take issue with a particular ride.

Hes as honest as they come..I do follow him on Twitter great follow and it can be profitable.

[dilanesp]

Alot of jocks seem like they wanna win but have no interest in getting a horse to hold for a minor award or get up for a minor award

That's because (for some fairly legitimate reasons having to do with equine safety), the stewards won't punish them for that.

When the basic rules regarding jockey effort were written, there was no such thing as an exacta and place and show betting was the province of recreational $2 bettors.

[Ocala Mike]

place and show betting was the province of recreational $2 bettors.



Not what I heard from (very) old-timers who made a living in these pools when the takeout in NY was 10%. Talking 40's and 50's here, I know, but the "jockey rules" would have predated that, no?

[Tom]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

place and show betting was the province of recreational $2 bettors.

And exacta players, triple players, super players.

[Stillriledup]

Were you drinking when you used this logic?

I don't drink.... i don't have any extra brain cells to torch up, i'm going to try and hang on to the ones i have.

I have a feeling that if this rule was in place, jocks would ride harder to the wire. Do you not agree?

[Stillriledup]

Are you saying it doesnt happen in the nyra circuit?

LOL the jocks at NYRA are some of the worst offenders, i watch hours of tape per night, i see these guys constantly "ease up" horses, its an epidemic.

[Stillriledup]

Please give me the name of the horse, the date, and the race.

:D
It doesnt matter, there are so many examples at your track of guys not riding all out to the line that i cant list them all. You watch hours of replays, you see jocks blow board spots all the time, i'm not telling you something you don't already know.

[TheEdge07]

LOL the jocks at NYRA are some of the worst offenders, i watch hours of tape per night, i see these guys constantly "ease up" horses, its an epidemic.

andy wants you to name the jock you posted about?

[PaceAdvantage]

:D
It doesnt matter, there are so many examples at your track of guys not riding all out to the line that i cant list them all. You watch hours of replays, you see jocks blow board spots all the time, i'm not telling you something you don't already know.He didn't want a list of all. He wanted the one you described. Something told me you weren't going to answer him directly and to the point with the info he requested.

Why is that? Should be easy, no?

[PaceAdvantage]

andy wants you to name the jock you posted about?But instead, at SRU Downs, they practice the art of deflection and double speak... :lol:

Just name the damn horse, jock and race SRU. I thought you were all about transparency and being a stand up guy when it came to racing...

[Stillriledup]

He didn't want a list of all. He wanted the one you described. Something told me you weren't going to answer him directly and to the point with the info he requested.

Why is that? Should be easy, no?

I don't want to get into a he said she said about specific rides. I dont want to get into a debate about i said the guy didnt ride all the way and then someone else says that's poppycock and the guy did ride hard all the way, its all open to interpretation. One man's ride hard to the wire might be another man's easing up to the wire. We all have different standards of what constitutes riding hard, its for each person to determine for themselves.

[thaskalos]

I never thought I would live to see SRU paint himself into a corner... :)

[cj]

I don't want to get into a he said she said about specific rides. I dont want to get into a debate about i said the guy didnt ride all the way and then someone else says that's poppycock and the guy did ride hard all the way, its all open to interpretation. One man's ride hard to the wire might be another man's easing up to the wire. We all have different standards of what constitutes riding hard, its for each person to determine for themselves.

Wow, this is the best you can produce? We all know what horse you meant, there weren't many DHs for 4th in the past few days. Sack up dude.

[Ocala Mike]

Listen to those crickets!

[Stillriledup]

Wow, this is the best you can produce? We all know what horse you meant, there weren't many DHs for 4th in the past few days. Sack up dude.

Well than, it shouldnt be too hard to find out who it was, no need for all the fuss.

[FantasticDan]

On Twitter today, TLG took issue with Irad Ortiz's ride on the :1: in the 2nd @BEL, calling it, "strangely poor", and asking, "What was he thinking?".

TLG, can you elaborate on what you didn't like about the ride? It looked to me like the horse was in a pretty good stalking spot on the inside thru the race, and just didn't respond strongly when Ortiz started asking at the turn of the stretch.

I know Imbriale said he was "bottled up" on the rail deep in the stretch, but it didn't look like it cost the horse that much momentum, he wasn't going to win anyway.

I guess this illustrates differences in perception, and that's why I sincerely ask TLG what he saw, since I'm trying to learn. If I was watching that race, and the :1: was my pick, it just looked to me like Ortiz was trying, but just not getting a great response.

If you didn't like the spot the horse was put in thru the race, I guess I can see that argument.

[dilanesp]

Not what I heard from (very) old-timers who made a living in these pools when the takeout in NY was 10%. Talking 40's and 50's here, I know, but the "jockey rules" would have predated that, no?

It's hard to know who "makes a living" playing the horses. But the mathematical problem here is that even with a lower takeout, breakage kills people in the place and show pools.

At any rate, so long as the stewards and racing commissions perceived the place and show pools to be full of small denomination bets, they probably weren't likely to be as aggressive at protecting their integrity, especially since asking jockeys to continue to give maximum effort with tiring horses is quite problematic.

[cj]

Well than, it shouldnt be too hard to find out who it was, no need for all the fuss.

The fuss is you backed away from your assertion, saying everyone has different definitions of trying rather than actually stating a case.

[Stillriledup]

Listen to those crickets!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

[Cannon shell]

I don't drink.... i don't have any extra brain cells to torch up, i'm going to try and hang on to the ones i have.

I have a feeling that if this rule was in place, jocks would ride harder to the wire. Do you not agree?
You think Jocks would ride harder if trainers got fined when they didn't ride hard?

[the little guy]

:D
It doesnt matter, there are so many examples at your track of guys not riding all out to the line that i cant list them all. You watch hours of replays, you see jocks blow board spots all the time, i'm not telling you something you don't already know.

You constantly complain that nobody in racing does anything about whatever current situation you are moaning about, yet when someone in a position to perhaps do something asks you a very simple question, you refuse to answer it....after making some pretty serious accusations.

Honestly, this makes all your constant griping nothing but hot air.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

Honestly, this makes all your constant griping nothing but hot air.


:lol:

This is more like one of eighty punctuation marks.

[Relwob Owner]

This happens SO often at Belmont, its really frustrating. I had a guy a few days ago who basically wrapped up a horse at the top of the lane, hand rode the horse the entire lane like he was "easing" the horse and was in a DH for 4th and cost me money in the super as i would have obviously gotten more if the guy was a clean 4th.


Not disclosing which race is weak

[thaskalos]

You think Jocks would ride harder if trainers got fined when they didn't ride hard?

Cannon shell...do trainers tell their jockeys to occasionally "take it easy" on a horse, simply because a seemingly better spot is coming up for the horse in the future?

Is this an ethical business practice?

[the little guy]

On Twitter today, TLG took issue with Irad Ortiz's ride on the :1: in the 2nd @BEL, calling it, "strangely poor", and asking, "What was he thinking?".

TLG, can you elaborate on what you didn't like about the ride? It looked to me like the horse was in a pretty good stalking spot on the inside thru the race, and just didn't respond strongly when Ortiz started asking at the turn of the stretch.

I know Imbriale said he was "bottled up" on the rail deep in the stretch, but it didn't look like it cost the horse that much momentum, he wasn't going to win anyway.

I guess this illustrates differences in perception, and that's why I sincerely ask TLG what he saw, since I'm trying to learn. If I was watching that race, and the :1: was my pick, it just looked to me like Ortiz was trying, but just not getting a great response.

If you didn't like the spot the horse was put in thru the race, I guess I can see that argument.


He was riding the speed, breaking from the rail, on a track that has been enormously kind to speed and the rail since the start of the meet, and significantly took back behind the only other speed in the race, and allowed that one to crawl on the front end, while losing even more position early. It was a dreadful ride.

It's one thing to go forward to the lead and take back when another forces you to go faster than you want early, but he took back immediately behind a pace which turned out to be extraordinarily slow. He decided what he was going to do before the race even started, and that is not the way to ride.

[Relwob Owner]

I don't want to get into a he said she said about specific rides. I dont want to get into a debate about i said the guy didnt ride all the way and then someone else says that's poppycock and the guy did ride hard all the way, its all open to interpretation. One man's ride hard to the wire might be another man's easing up to the wire. We all have different standards of what constitutes riding hard, its for each person to determine for themselves.


If this is really how you feel and isn't just massive backtracking(which I think it is), then probably a good idea to ease off saying it happens a lot, no?

[Saratoga_Mike]

If this is really how you feel and isn't just massive backtracking(which I think it is), then probably a good idea to ease off saying it happens a lot, no?

It's almost as if he made the whole thing up....oh, I'm sure that didn't happen. After all, I always say, "if you can't trust SRU's posts, you can't trust anyone's."

[TheEdge07]

He was riding the speed, breaking from the rail, on a track that has been enormously kind to speed and the rail since the start of the meet, and significantly took back behind the only other speed in the race, and allowed that one to crawl on the front end, while losing even more position early. It was a dreadful ride.

It's one thing to go forward to the lead and take back when another forces you to go faster than you want early, but he took back immediately behind a pace which turned out to be extraordinarily slow. He decided what he was going to do before the race even started, and that is not the way to ride.


I asked you on twitter what was wrong with the ride .Thanks for your explaination.I could see the race clearer with your detail of the ride ,thanks.

[Cannon shell]

Cannon shell...do trainers tell their jockeys to occasionally "take it easy" on a horse, simply because a seemingly better spot is coming up for the horse in the future?

Is this an ethical business practice?
The better way to frame the question is every horse asked 100% to win every time? Of course the answer is no for various reasons.

Distance issues, surface issues, off tracks, long layoffs, etc lots of reasons.

Is it ethical? Depends on the situation I suppose. If you out and out tell the jockey to stiff the horse in a race that it can win i'd have to say there is an issue. But many times the horses might be overmatched and having the jockey beat on him for no good reason isn't right either.

When people complain about scratches this is the subject that should be brought up. Rather have a 5 horse field with everyone trying or a 7 horse field where 2 are more or less just galloping around there?

[cj]

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/videos/race-replay/BED/2013/20130921/5/pan/

That is the race in question. After watching, I don't necessarily disagree about Cohen. What is so hard about that?

[thaskalos]

Well than, it shouldnt be too hard to find out who it was, no need for all the fuss.

Hold on a second here, SRU...

We lament that there is no proper policing of the sport...and not enough "transparency".

And now you yourself have information about thieving jockeys...but you are unwilling to name names?

[TheEdge07]

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/videos/race-replay/BED/2013/20130921/5/pan/

That is the race in question. After watching, I don't necessarily disagree about Cohen. What is so hard about that?

Needed the #1 horse for the pick 4 horse came up empty cant be him.

[cj]

Needed the #1 horse for the pick 4 horse came up empty cant be him.

The 6 horse, not the 1.

[Relwob Owner]

I know of a poster who I think throws out opinions that are not thought out in an effort to draw attention to him or herself. You can ask me over and over, but I am not naming who it is.

[TheEdge07]

The 6 horse, not the 1.

CJ what do you think of the ride?

[Stillriledup]

Hold on a second here, SRU...

We lament that there is no proper policing of the sport...and not enough "transparency".

And now you yourself have information about thieving jockeys...but you are unwilling to name names?

Its my job to win bets, not police the sport or divulge information i've acquired by carefully watching replays. Also, i don't know if these guys are thieves or not, i dont know what is the actual reason they're not riding hard for all board spots, its pretty evident that in many races at many tracks, jocks don't ride as hard for 4th as they do for win, yet, that 4th might be someone's 'win' as you well know, being a superfecta player.

[thaskalos]

The better way to frame the question is every horse asked 100% to win every time? Of course the answer is no for various reasons.

Distance issues, surface issues, off tracks, long layoffs, etc lots of reasons.

Is it ethical? Depends on the situation I suppose. If you out and out tell the jockey to stiff the horse in a race that it can win i'd have to say there is an issue. But many times the horses might be overmatched and having the jockey beat on him for no good reason isn't right either.

When people complain about scratches this is the subject that should be brought up. Rather have a 5 horse field with everyone trying or a 7 horse field where 2 are more or less just galloping around there?

See...this is what I can't understand. You are outspoken and direct when you want to be...but dancing around the point when the question doesn't suit you.

There are laws in the books which not only prohibit the out-and-out "stiffing" of those horses who are "capable of winning the race"...but which also instruct the connections of ALL the horses to try their best to secure the best placing for their horses in their respective races. Am I wrong about this?

When a jockey wraps up on a horse when the horse is still in contending position late in the race...aren't these rules being violated?

[Stillriledup]

If this is really how you feel and isn't just massive backtracking(which I think it is), then probably a good idea to ease off saying it happens a lot, no?

Why is it backtracking? I gave an example of something i believed to be true....either you believe me or not, i don't get what all the hubbub is about. do you think all jocks ride hard all the time in ever race for every board spot? Why is what i said so shocking?

[TheEdge07]

I know of a poster who I think throws out opinions that are not thought out in an effort to draw attention to him or herself. You can ask me over and over, but I am not naming who it is.

Does he work at SRU? :lol:

[Stillriledup]

The better way to frame the question is every horse asked 100% to win every time? Of course the answer is no for various reasons.

Distance issues, surface issues, off tracks, long layoffs, etc lots of reasons.

Is it ethical? Depends on the situation I suppose. If you out and out tell the jockey to stiff the horse in a race that it can win i'd have to say there is an issue. But many times the horses might be overmatched and having the jockey beat on him for no good reason isn't right either.

When people complain about scratches this is the subject that should be brought up. Rather have a 5 horse field with everyone trying or a 7 horse field where 2 are more or less just galloping around there?

When you say "beat him for no good reason" that's not what we're talking about. We arent suggesting jocks should try and finish 9th instead of 10th. We are talking about board spots...some tracks have Penta wagering, so all the way down to 5th could make or break someone's year, a lifetime score could be won or lost on a nose bob for 5th.

When you say jocks might not ride as hard on horses off "long layoffs" (for example) arent jocks supposed to be jocks and not trainers? Bettors don't the jock to play trainer or owner and decide how hard he is going to urge the animal....just urge the horse all the way to the wire, we're not asking the guy to beat the hair off the horse, we just don't want to see the guy wrap up.

[Stillriledup]

Does he work at SRU? :lol:

Its even possible, and you don't have to quote me on this, but this person he's talking about may even be a "higher up" at that place. :D

[nat1223]

I wouldn't always be pointing the finger at the jockey. you need to understand trainers and what there intent is for a given race but even then you never know what the horse is going to give that trainer or jockey on particular day. Once that gate is open you never know. this is why the game is difficult to a degree because the horse could look great on every system and come out and run a flat race. jockeys know when the horse has run and when they don't so it doesn't make sense to beat the shit out of the horse if the jockey knows the horse has nothing. if the jockey has the best horse in the race and he or she feels that the horse is running strong throughout the race then you can hand ride that horse and likely win with ease. the horse has a lot to do with this issue.

[Stillriledup]

I wouldn't always be pointing the finger at the jockey. you need to understand trainers and what there intent is for a given race but even then you never know what the horse is going to give that trainer or jockey on particular day. Once that gate is open you never know. this is why the game is difficult to a degree because the horse could look great on every system and come out and run a flat race. jockeys know when the horse has run and when they don't so it doesn't make sense to beat the shit out of the horse if the jockey knows the horse has nothing. if the jockey has the best horse in the race and he or she feels that the horse is running strong throughout the race then you can hand ride that horse and likely win with ease. the horse has a lot to do with this issue.

This is exactly what we're talking about, we don't want jockeys to be 'deciding' when they think a horse is tiring.....as bettors, we want that jock to ride all the way to the wire, we're not even asking him to hammer the horse hard, we're just asking for him to stay in the crouch and hand ride the horse somewhat aggressively if he's still in contention for 5th or better (4th or better in races with no Penta). Most of the bone of contention is jocks who are just wrapping up, they're not hitting and they're not hand riding even though they are in photo finishes for minor board spots that affect betting.

[thaskalos]

I wouldn't always be pointing the finger at the jockey. you need to understand trainers and what there intent is for a given race but even then you never know what the horse is going to give that trainer or jockey on particular day. Once that gate is open you never know. this is why the game is difficult to a degree because the horse could look great on every system and come out and run a flat race. jockeys know when the horse has run and when they don't so it doesn't make sense to beat the shit out of the horse if the jockey knows the horse has nothing. if the jockey has the best horse in the race and he or she feels that the horse is running strong throughout the race then you can hand ride that horse and likely win with ease. the horse has a lot to do with this issue.
No one is asking the jockey to "beat the shit out of a horse" when the horse has nothing left. But what's the excuse for not giving the horse a vigorous hand ride to the wire...in order to secure even a minor placing?

This is the age of exotics wagering, you know...and minor placings really do matter.

Shouldn't we harbor dark suspicions when certain jockeys remain motionless on their mounts, even as the other jockeys are trying furiously to get the best out of their horses?

Is a vigorous hand ride too much to ask for our money?

[Relwob Owner]

Does he work at SRU? :lol:

You are getting warm....

[cj]

So no comments on the ride?

[thaskalos]

So no comments on the ride?

Shameless!

[johnhannibalsmith]

So no comments on the ride?

If the horse in question is Ballerino, then I have to agree with SRU, but it didn't even look as though it was a matter of not persevering through the lane. Rider looked like a passenger for all but about five strides from the gate.

[Saratoga_Mike]

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/videos/race-replay/BED/2013/20130921/5/pan/

That is the race in question. After watching, I don't necessarily disagree about Cohen. What is so hard about that?

Did you watch the head-on?

[sammy the sage]

interesting thread...similar to one I got crucified in... :lol: ;) :rolleyes:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95078&highlight=arlington

[dilanesp]

See...this is what I can't understand. You are outspoken and direct when you want to be...but dancing around the point when the question doesn't suit you.

There are laws in the books which not only prohibit the out-and-out "stiffing" of those horses who are "capable of winning the race"...but which also instruct the connections of ALL the horses to try their best to secure the best placing for their horses in their respective races. Am I wrong about this?

When a jockey wraps up on a horse when the horse is still in contending position late in the race...aren't these rules being violated?

In theory, sure. But in practice, don't we want the jockey wrapping up and protecting the horse if he or she is tired and there's a risk of injury?

This is a legitimately tough issue.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

If I'm an owner and I think my horse can come in 3rd or 4th and get a nice check in a million dollar race AS LONG AS he isn't in a speed duel BUT the only way I think he can win is gun to the front (maybe a 4% chance of winning) what should I tell the trainer and jockey??

[nat1223]

No one is asking the jockey to "beat the shit out of a horse" when the horse has nothing left. But what's the excuse for not giving the horse a vigorous hand ride to the wire...in order to secure even a minor placing?

This is the age of exotics wagering, you know...and minor placings really do matter.

Shouldn't we harbor dark suspicions when certain jockeys remain motionless on their mounts, even as the other jockeys are trying furiously to get the best out of their horses?

Is a vigorous hand ride too much to ask for our money? point being there could be a valid excuse not to ride the horse vigorously that we as bettors do not see. does it happen yes but how often is the question. bettors will always come up with some excuse why their horse didn't win and blaming the jockey or trainer is where it starts. a little more scrutiny on the handicapping could give you the answer why.

[nat1223]

This is exactly what we're talking about, we don't want jockeys to be 'deciding' when they think a horse is tiring.....as bettors, we want that jock to ride all the way to the wire, we're not even asking him to hammer the horse hard, we're just asking for him to stay in the crouch and hand ride the horse somewhat aggressively if he's still in contention for 5th or better (4th or better in races with no Penta). Most of the bone of contention is jocks who are just wrapping up, they're not hitting and they're not hand riding even though they are in photo finishes for minor board spots that affect betting. well minor board spots don't effect me so I can't be to upset with this thread then

[thaskalos]

point being there could be a valid excuse not to ride the horse vigorously that we as bettors do not see. does it happen yes but how often is the question. bettors will always come up with some excuse why their horse didn't win and blaming the jockey or trainer is where it starts. a little more scrutiny on the handicapping could give you the answer why.
Blaming the jockey for not winning the race is one thing; blaming him for not putting forth a reasonable effort on the horse is something else entirely.

There may well be a valid reason why a jockey is not riding a horse vigorously...but a valid argument can also be made that this horse is being stiffed...and that is unacceptable.

[nat1223]

Blaming the jockey for not winning the race is one thing; blaming him for not putting forth a reasonable effort on the horse is something else entirely.

There may well be a valid reason why a jockey is not riding a horse vigorously...but a valid argument can also be made that this horse is being stiffed...and that is unacceptable. well if you play the tri's, supers, etc then maybe you have some validity there and if that's the case then maybe invest into another wager, but I have yet to see a jockey stop riding a horse when they have a chance to win.

[cj]

Did you watch the head-on?

Of course I watched the head on. I think he could have done more, but I've seen worse.

[PaceAdvantage]

interesting thread...similar to one I got crucified in... :lol: ;) :rolleyes:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95078&highlight=arlingtonAnother broken record. One in off-topic, now one in the racing section...let me get out my fiddle...

[menifee]

well if you play the tri's, supers, etc then maybe you have some validity there and if that's the case then maybe invest into another wager, but I have yet to see a jockey stop riding a horse when they have a chance to win.

You've never seen this race..lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hajeGSxvYC0

[TJDave]

Blaming the jockey for not winning the race is one thing; blaming him for not putting forth a reasonable effort on the horse is something else entirely.


I agree.

Name another sport where we accept athletes and/or coaches not giving 100% effort. I'm 100% against whipping a tired horse but these animals are supposedly in shape and ready to give their best...else why are they entered? ;)

[v j stauffer]

It's hard to know who "makes a living" playing the horses. But the mathematical problem here is that even with a lower takeout, breakage kills people in the place and show pools.

At any rate, so long as the stewards and racing commissions perceived the place and show pools to be full of small denomination bets, they probably weren't likely to be as aggressive at protecting their integrity, especially since asking jockeys to continue to give maximum effort with tiring horses is quite problematic.

:bang: :bang: :bang:

[classhandicapper]

The only thing that bothers me is when the horse is clearly in a position to secure a minor award and the rider suddenly stops riding or starts to stand up for the last few strides and blows a spot. It one thing to stop using the horse once he's beat or if he doesn't feel right, but when there are only a few strides left? There's not much excuse for that. I haven't lost many bets that way over my lifetime, but even 1 is too many.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Of course I watched the head on. I think he could have done more, but I've seen worse.

That was my take, too. I thought you were implying that it looked really bad--my mistake. I also thought the horse was lugging out part of the race (might have been just when he had one close to his inside, though), which could explain the tentative stretch drive.

[CryingForTheHorses]

How frustrating is it to watch a jock coast around the oval on your pick and never really ask the horse for its best? This has happened to me a lot lately, and I find myself looking like this after the race :confused: :mad:

Obviously, I understand not persevering on a horse that's set wicked fractions and is stopping badly late in the race.. or any other valid reason for not vigorously riding late in the game.

I guess it's the lazy riding I'm talking about.. never really setting the horse down. Or one hand on the reigns while still up in the saddle as you come down the stretch..

I know they have a very tough, dangerous job, and I don't like to criticize professionals that know more about the job than I ever will..

But still. I just like to see max effort when max effort is called for. And I don't always seem to get it.


I really hate a jock who doesnt ride past the wire..Jocks that do this should be suspended for not giving their all.

[Cannon shell]

See...this is what I can't understand. You are outspoken and direct when you want to be...but dancing around the point when the question doesn't suit you.

There are laws in the books which not only prohibit the out-and-out "stiffing" of those horses who are "capable of winning the race"...but which also instruct the connections of ALL the horses to try their best to secure the best placing for their horses in their respective races. Am I wrong about this?

When a jockey wraps up on a horse when the horse is still in contending position late in the race...aren't these rules being violated?

I find it hard to believe that my answer "danced around the point". As I said there are different situations that need different views. It isn't a black and white issue, deal with it.

Show me a "law" that instructs this.

Charlie Whittingham almost never won with 1st time starters. Do you think this wasn't by design? So in your view he violated a "law" every time he ran a 1st timer?

There is a big difference between a jockey not trying with a contender late in the race and a million other scenarios.

[Cannon shell]

When you say "beat him for no good reason" that's not what we're talking about. We arent suggesting jocks should try and finish 9th instead of 10th. We are talking about board spots...some tracks have Penta wagering, so all the way down to 5th could make or break someone's year, a lifetime score could be won or lost on a nose bob for 5th.

When you say jocks might not ride as hard on horses off "long layoffs" (for example) arent jocks supposed to be jocks and not trainers? Bettors don't the jock to play trainer or owner and decide how hard he is going to urge the animal....just urge the horse all the way to the wire, we're not asking the guy to beat the hair off the horse, we just don't want to see the guy wrap up.
Again like I told the rude greek guy, it depends. If the horse is struggling 20 lengths behind should the jockey continue to whip him to try to beat another struggling horse who might be a length in front of him for 5th?

Remind me to send a memo to my horses legs that they should hold on until the hit the wire. When you are dealing with animals and not machines especially ones that may be returning off of an injury there are no absolutes.

I fired a jock and wouldn't use him for years because he didn't ride out to the wire and may have cost a filly a stakes placing. He basically got lazy and more or less admitted that.

Is that acceptable? No. But in some cases the jockey is doing the prudent thing in wrapping up. Thing is it is hard to tell the difference from a distance

[Saratoga_Mike]

Again like I told the rude greek guy, it depends. If the horse is struggling 20 lengths behind should the jockey continue to whip him to try to beat another struggling horse who might be a length in front of him for 5th?



Thask is rude? Hah. You're a smart guy, but you're also full of yourself.

[Cannon shell]

This is exactly what we're talking about, we don't want jockeys to be 'deciding' when they think a horse is tiring.....as bettors, we want that jock to ride all the way to the wire, we're not even asking him to hammer the horse hard, we're just asking for him to stay in the crouch and hand ride the horse somewhat aggressively if he's still in contention for 5th or better (4th or better in races with no Penta). Most of the bone of contention is jocks who are just wrapping up, they're not hitting and they're not hand riding even though they are in photo finishes for minor board spots that affect betting.
Well who decides if the horse is tiring? This is an ridiculous statement.

[Cannon shell]

Thask is rude? Hah. You're a smart guy, but you're also full of yourself.
Really? Full of myself for saying that he is rude for more or less insulting me? I wasn't aware that being rude was such a slur. Especially after seeing some of the things trainers are accused of being.

[thaskalos]

Really? Full of myself for saying that he is rude for more or less insulting me? I wasn't aware that being rude was such a slur. Especially after seeing some of the things trainers are accused of being.

Insulting you?

Judging by the tone of some of your posts, I wouldn't have pegged you for being this sensitive...

[Saratoga_Mike]

Really? Full of myself for saying that he is rude for more or less insulting me? I wasn't aware that being rude was such a slur. Especially after seeing some of the things trainers are accused of being.

I don't think many posters would agree with you on the rude characterization. My "full of yourself" comment was based on your full of body of work, not one or two posts. Perhaps you're the very definition of humility and I'm just missing it.

[Cannon shell]

Insulting you?

Judging by the tone of some of your posts, I wouldn't have pegged you for being this sensitive...
I'm not.

[Cannon shell]

I don't think many posters would agree with you on the rude characterization. My "full of yourself" comment was based on your full of body of work, not one or two posts. Perhaps you're the very definition of humility and I'm just missing it.
Do you know me? Or are you one of the legions of internet Dr Phil's that can tell everything about a person by reading internet posts about horseracing?

I called the guy rude. I believed the tone of his reply was rude. Rudeness isn't a sin

[thaskalos]

Do you know me? Or are you one of the legions of internet Dr Phil's that can tell everything about a person by reading internet posts about horseracing?

I called the guy rude. I believed the tone of his reply was rude. Rudeness isn't a sin

Are YOU rude...or have you not noticed the tone of YOUR replies?

[Cannon shell]

Are YOU rude...or have you not noticed the tone of YOUR replies?
Perhaps you may take it that way.

[thaskalos]

Perhaps you may take it that way.

Rudeness begets rudeness...and civility begets civility.

[Stillriledup]

Again like I told the rude greek guy, it depends. If the horse is struggling 20 lengths behind should the jockey continue to whip him to try to beat another struggling horse who might be a length in front of him for 5th?

Remind me to send a memo to my horses legs that they should hold on until the hit the wire. When you are dealing with animals and not machines especially ones that may be returning off of an injury there are no absolutes.

I fired a jock and wouldn't use him for years because he didn't ride out to the wire and may have cost a filly a stakes placing. He basically got lazy and more or less admitted that.

Is that acceptable? No. But in some cases the jockey is doing the prudent thing in wrapping up. Thing is it is hard to tell the difference from a distance

In a normal 6 Furlong race, horses typically "slow down" as the race gets longer. 22 might be the first fraction, 23 might be the 2nd and the last quarter might be 25. Everyone is "tiring".

You need to read some of the posts here more carefully, nobody is ever talking about whipping. We are just talking about not grabbing into the horse and wrapping up, huge difference.

Most of us don't want pinheads (how they're loving called from time to time) making financial decisions for us on the fly, on a whim.

Plenty of horses tire, you are going to get a large majority of racehorses who are getting tired inside the final yards, inside the final 16th, if 'being tired' was a prerequisite of wrapping up, there would be more guys wrapping up as plenty of horses get tired.

[Cannon shell]

Rudeness begets rudeness...and civility begets civility.
I don't recall saying anything uncivil. However as a testament to my humility and in accordance with modern social standards where everyone has to be appeased I sincerely apologize for calling you rude for your churlish response to my reply to your question.

[Cannon shell]

In a normal 6 Furlong race, horses typically "slow down" as the race gets longer. 22 might be the first fraction, 23 might be the 2nd and the last quarter might be 25. Everyone is "tiring".

You need to read some of the posts here more carefully, nobody is ever talking about whipping. We are just talking about not grabbing into the horse and wrapping up, huge difference.

Most of us don't want pinheads (how they're loving called from time to time) making financial decisions for us on the fly, on a whim.

Plenty of horses tire, you are going to get a large majority of racehorses who are getting tired inside the final yards, inside the final 16th, if 'being tired' was a prerequisite of wrapping up, there would be more guys wrapping up as plenty of horses get tired.
At the risk of being rude how can you tell how tired a horse is? Maybe they are having wind issues. Maybe they are bleeding. Maybe they are sick. maybe they lost a shoe and its stinging them. Maybe the illegal shockwave treatment is wearing off. Maybe they are suffering heat prostration. Maybe they got hit in the eye with a clod of dirt and have blurry vision. maybe the jockey is weak from squeezing a few pounds off. Maybe he got hit in the face with a clod. Maybe he hit his foot/leg coming out of the gate and it is killing him. There are a million things that could affect the horse/rider.

I get that you don't like riders not riding to the wire. I don't either. Own a horse and those 3rds rather than 4ths pay a lot of bills. However there are a lot of circumstances where there is a valid reason why they don't. And if you think that trainers and owners don't punish those who do this too often ask your self if Kent D is in Chicago by choice as opposed to where he used to ride.

[Stillriledup]

At the risk of being rude how can you tell how tired a horse is? Maybe they are having wind issues. Maybe they are bleeding. Maybe they are sick. maybe they lost a shoe and its stinging them. Maybe the illegal shockwave treatment is wearing off. Maybe they are suffering heat prostration. Maybe they got hit in the eye with a clod of dirt and have blurry vision. maybe the jockey is weak from squeezing a few pounds off. Maybe he got hit in the face with a clod. Maybe he hit his foot/leg coming out of the gate and it is killing him. There are a million things that could affect the horse/rider.

I get that you don't like riders not riding to the wire. I don't either. Own a horse and those 3rds rather than 4ths pay a lot of bills. However there are a lot of circumstances where there is a valid reason why they don't. And if you think that trainers and owners don't punish those who do this too often ask your self if Kent D is in Chicago by choice as opposed to where he used to ride.

I dont care about any of that, i bet my money, i dont want my jock 'easing up'. Every circumstance is different, but for the most part, like you mention with Kent, a lot of these jocks who do this are repeat offenders, watch some Golden Gate races, Russel NEVER wraps up, he's belly down on every mount no matter what board spot he's chasing, there are plenty of cheap, tired and injured horses at Golden Gate but if you bet Russell, you get your money's worth, 100% of the time with no exceptions. Not all jocks are like this, i dont want to keep making excuses for these guys, some of them ride thru the wire on every horse, do you think Russell Baze has ever ridden a horse who might have been wrapped up by another jock.

Just ride to the wire, you dont have to beat the horse to a pulp, just stay in the crouch and hand ride, its not asking a lot.

[Cannon shell]

I dont care about any of that, i bet my money, i dont want my jock 'easing up'.

At least you are honest

[Saratoga_Mike]

Do you know me? Or are you one of the legions of internet Dr Phil's that can tell everything about a person by reading internet posts about horseracing?

I called the guy rude. I believed the tone of his reply was rude. Rudeness isn't a sin

I also said you were smart. Why not object to that on the same grounds (i.e., I don't know you personally)? And yes, if you read enough of someone's posts, you can learn a ton about their personality...certainly more than Dr Phil would observe in a 15-minute segment! Good day.

[Cannon shell]

I also said you were smart. Why not object to that on the same grounds (i.e., I don't know you personally)? And yes, if you read enough of someone's posts, you can learn a ton about their personality...certainly more than Dr Phil would observe in a 15-minute segment! Good day.

You obviously were wrong about the smart part as well as I'm still here responding to your unprovoked needling.

[nat1223]

this turned out to be an interesting thread.

[thespaah]

You are going to fine the trainer because of the actions of the jockey?
It appears that is the deal in Hong Kong..
Look, what jock gets a leg up with NO instructions from the trainer?

[Stillriledup]

It appears that is the deal in Hong Kong..
Look, what jock gets a leg up with NO instructions from the trainer?

Its don't ask, don't tell in America. Trainers take their 30 or 60 day suspensions, they take their 2,500 dollar fines and the vet gets away scot free because his name is not on the program.

[Cannon shell]

It appears that is the deal in Hong Kong..
Look, what jock gets a leg up with NO instructions from the trainer?
Hong Kong racing is not pertinent to US racing.

What percentage of the time do they follow the instructions?
What if I give them instructions and they don't follow them should they be fined for that?

The idea that a trainer should be fined because a jockey doesn't ride his mount out is just laughable unless it proven to be part of some race fixing scheme.

[Stillriledup]

Just watched the La Puente Stakes at Santa Anita (race 8, Apr 19th) and watched two jocks (Espinoza and Couton) stop riding their horses. Espinosa stood up way before the wire and cost his owners a 5th place check, which was 1,580 and got the 250 dollar "thanks for trying" conso prize. Couton, riding the horse who finished 5th ALSO stopped riding before the wire.

Now, this didnt cost any bettors bets because there was no Penta wagering on the race, but what if one of the top 4 gets DQd and placed last? That's happened before and the difference in checks wouldnt have been 1300 it would have been over 3k.

Now when i see this stuff the thing that crosses my mind is "are these guys SO rich that they can just leave money on the table"? I know Julien Couton eventually got that 5th place check, but he stopped riding....This jock rides what, 1 winner a month in So Cal? Does this guy have so much money that an extra 50 or 100 bucks is chump change?

Can someone please explain to me how a "Starving" jock can just stop riding? I can see Espinoza stopping riding, that guy is riding the Derby Favorite, he's rolling in cash, he's not going to break his you know what for an extra 50, but Couton? Couton isnt riding thru the wire?

[Robert Goren]

Live and learn. Don't bet on Espinosa again.

[clocker7]

How is this different from any NBA player not going all out in December on defense when the point spread might be on the line?

1. Highly paid athlete - check
2. Busting buns throughout the entire contests is harder than it looks to fans - check
3. Many more important games coming in the pipeline - check
4. With little on the line, it makes sense to coast in this situation - check
5. Distractions at home and other intangibles might be figuring in - check

Expecting any modern athlete (besides the second coming of Pete Rose) to give 110% 24/7 is pretty unreasonable. Ask any college basketball coach. The standard answer will be: in a normal season, there are five games where teams outperform, 5 games where they underperform, and the rest are ones in which they do about what they can be expected to do.

As people might have noticed, I am not one of those who are obsessed over losing money due to the effects of drug usage on the sport. Over the years, I have considered jockey performance (or lack thereof) to have a bigger impact on my bottom line, and something that will never be reformed to anybody's satisfaction. That being said, this is a sport based upon the willingness of a prey animal responding to a human that might not give a crap, or when he might be cheating altogether.

Remember, you chose to do this, knowing that in advance. Look in the mirror now and then.

[clocker7]

Let me rephrase: look at the glass half full. Some day you will be on the winning side of a super because your undeserving 4th place assnag edged out a slightly superior one with a bored/lazy/surrendering pinhead on top. :cool:

[Stillriledup]

Let me rephrase: look at the glass half full. Some day you will be on the winning side of a super because your undeserving 4th place assnag edged out a slightly superior one with a bored/lazy/surrendering pinhead on top. :cool:

Bettors don't care about that, all they care about is if THEIR horse gets ridden to the wire when they have money on the nose (or on the rear end, if they need the horse to finish 4th to hit a super).


Is it too much to ask to ride the horse thru the wire for 1 more second, or one more tenth of a second? Is it too much to ask to not "stand up" or "stop riding" with one or two strides left in the race?

If its too much to ask, just say "its too much to ask".

[tzipi]

A ton of the time, it is NOT the jocks fault for not riding.

Some horses are just in for workouts during a race. The connections looking down the road at a race, like to use a race as a workout. The jocks are told to sometimes...

"Keep the horse wide all race and run evenly".

"Keep the horse back and give a little extra run in late stretch."

"Burn the horse up front and finish way back."


All trips to build stamina or speed. Why not do it during workouts you say? Well because working out during races muddys up the past performances and they get a better price when they actually go for their race because the public just sees bad, out of the money finishes. It fools the public.

[Poindexter]

.Sru, isn't the information you gather more valuable to you as a betting tool, than the money lost on the occasional miss because your rider stopped riding? Seems to me that jockey tendencies and following these horses down the road(in case the rider isn't being lazy or apathetic would be much more beneficial to you than worrying about something that probably isn't going to change. Sort of like "supertrainers." You don't like the fact they exist, but since they do exist, and while they continue exist you try to learn when they are going to fire and when they aren't(patterns).

This topic reminds me of when you have an NBA dog +13 and they are down 15 with a minute to go. You have 8 reserves on the court, some teams will fire a shot at the buzzer, some teams will dribble out the clock, some teams will stop playing defense on the last play....but whatever the case the only one who really cares whether the team wins by 12 or 17 is the people holding tickets on the favorite -13 or the dog +13. Or maybe 1 or 2 players do care for whatever reason(their buddy told him they bet them -13...). When you bet these games that is the risk you take. When you bet superfectas, jockeys not caring about running 4th is the risk you take. Reminds me of the toughest NBA beat I ever had. Had a huge bet on the dog +13(whatever it was). This is back when Gary Payton was playing for Seattle. The dog had the game covered, Gary Payton was dribbling out the clock, the defense stopped playing defense, and for some crazy reason with 3 seconds to go, he dribbles from practically the half court line to slam the ball home at the buzzer completely uncontested(turning my winning bet into a losing bet). For some reason the NBA did not seem to care.:lol::lol:

I am not dismissing the issue, I am just saying in your shoes, my focus would be on benefiting from the info you gather.

[Stillriledup]

.Sru, isn't the information you gather more valuable to you as a betting tool, than the money lost on the occasional miss because your rider stopped riding? Seems to me that jockey tendencies and following these horses down the road(in case the rider isn't being lazy or apathetic would be much more beneficial to you than worrying about something that probably isn't going to change. Sort of like "supertrainers." You don't like the fact they exist, but since they do exist, and while they continue exist you try to learn when they are going to fire and when they aren't(patterns).

This topic reminds me of when you have an NBA dog +13 and they are down 15 with a minute to go. You have 8 reserves on the court, some teams will fire a shot at the buzzer, some teams will dribble out the clock, some teams will stop playing defense on the last play....but whatever the case the only one who really cares whether the team wins by 12 or 17 is the people holding tickets on the favorite -13 or the dog +13. Or maybe 1 or 2 players do care for whatever reason(their buddy told him they bet them -13...). When you bet these games that is the risk you take. When you bet superfectas, jockeys not caring about running 4th is the risk you take. Reminds me of the toughest NBA beat I ever had. Had a huge bet on the dog +13(whatever it was). This is back when Gary Payton was playing for Seattle. The dog had the game covered, Gary Payton was dribbling out the clock, the defense stopped playing defense, and for some crazy reason with 3 seconds to go, he dribbles from practically the half court line to slam the ball home at the buzzer completely uncontested(turning my winning bet into a losing bet). For some reason the NBA did not seem to care.:lol::lol:

I am not dismissing the issue, I am just saying in your shoes, my focus would be on benefiting from the info you gather.

This is a good mindset, love the comments.

I do know which jocks ride hard and which guys mail rides in and what types of horses get "mailed in" and whatnut, so i'm on that part of it. I think the way to make money on this "angle" is to just wait for a "lazy" jock to get off the horse and replaced by a guy who cares and will ride thru the wire no matter what.

Its not a "losing bet" thing for me, its just annoying as a person who bets money into small American pools, when i see this nonsense, i know everyone else sees it too, the 2 dollar bettors are asking "why did that guy not ride to the wire" and that hurts the game perceptionwise.

This game doesn't need any more perception problems, i want the 2 dollar bettors to learn this sport and hang around as bettors for a long time, i want the pools to be higher...this "stop riding" stuff is just another cancer in this game, a cancer that would never be tolerated by Japan racing, but here, jocks are teflon and can do whatever they want with no punishments whatsoever.

[clocker7]

Bettors don't care about that, all they care about is if THEIR horse gets ridden to the wire when they have money on the nose (or on the rear end, if they need the horse to finish 4th to hit a super).


Is it too much to ask to ride the horse thru the wire for 1 more second, or one more tenth of a second? Is it too much to ask to not "stand up" or "stop riding" with one or two strides left in the race?

If its too much to ask, just say "its too much to ask".
It's too much to expect. I'm not disagreeing that it's bothersome or looks bad to those focused on minor placings. I'm just being realistic as usual. Jockeys have to answer to their employers mostly, not you. And they can always come up with a rationalization for not humping the last ounce out of their mounts (without telling them that their hangover was pounding like a sledgehammer, or the like). Those sort of intangibles are what can make wringing the last significant figure out of speed or pace figs so hilariously self-defeating and self-delusional, too, I might add.

[clocker7]

This topic reminds me of when you have an NBA dog +13 and they are down 15 with a minute to go. You have 8 reserves on the court, some teams will fire a shot at the buzzer, some teams will dribble out the clock, some teams will stop playing defense on the last play....but whatever the case the only one who really cares whether the team wins by 12 or 17 is the people holding tickets on the favorite -13 or the dog +13. Or maybe 1 or 2 players do care for whatever reason(their buddy told him they bet them -13...). When you bet these games that is the risk you take. When you bet superfectas, jockeys not caring about running 4th is the risk you take. Reminds me of the toughest NBA beat I ever had. Had a huge bet on the dog +13(whatever it was). This is back when Gary Payton was playing for Seattle. The dog had the game covered, Gary Payton was dribbling out the clock, the defense stopped playing defense, and for some crazy reason with 3 seconds to go, he dribbles from practically the half court line to slam the ball home at the buzzer completely uncontested(turning my winning bet into a losing bet). For some reason the NBA did not seem to care.:lol::lol:

I am not dismissing the issue, I am just saying in your shoes, my focus would be on benefiting from the info you gather.

Good post. How about those poor Seabiscuit bettors that had no way on knowing that his jockey had one blind eye? Talk about another bad beat by a whisker due to the bizarre ...

[Stillriledup]

It's too much to expect. I'm not disagreeing that it's bothersome or looks bad to those focused on minor placings. I'm just being realistic as usual. Jockeys have to answer to their employers mostly, not you. And they can always come up with a rationalization for not humping the last ounce out of their mounts (without telling them that their hangover was pounding like a sledgehammer, or the like). Those sort of intangibles are what can make wringing the last significant figure out of speed or pace figs so hilariously self-defeating and self-delusional, too, I might add.

Love the post, thanks. :ThmbUp:

[thespaah]

Just watched the La Puente Stakes at Santa Anita (race 8, Apr 19th) and watched two jocks (Espinoza and Couton) stop riding their horses. Espinosa stood up way before the wire and cost his owners a 5th place check, which was 1,580 and got the 250 dollar "thanks for trying" conso prize. Couton, riding the horse who finished 5th ALSO stopped riding before the wire.

Now, this didnt cost any bettors bets because there was no Penta wagering on the race, but what if one of the top 4 gets DQd and placed last? That's happened before and the difference in checks wouldnt have been 1300 it would have been over 3k.

Now when i see this stuff the thing that crosses my mind is "are these guys SO rich that they can just leave money on the table"? I know Julien Couton eventually got that 5th place check, but he stopped riding....This jock rides what, 1 winner a month in So Cal? Does this guy have so much money that an extra 50 or 100 bucks is chump change?

Can someone please explain to me how a "Starving" jock can just stop riding? I can see Espinoza stopping riding, that guy is riding the Derby Favorite, he's rolling in cash, he's not going to break his you know what for an extra 50, but Couton? Couton isnt riding thru the wire?
Perhaps their horses were just DONE and trying to further urge them could have resulted in their injury?

[Stillriledup]

Perhaps their horses were just DONE and trying to further urge them could have resulted in their injury?

No. the horse who finished 5th wasnt "done" he was gaining ground, running well and didnt appear "exhausted".

If your comments are true, you would see an equal amount of jocks "protecting" tired horses, but its the same few "usual suspects", some jocks never stop riding...felipe Martinez, who gets bad horses and relatively few mounts never stops riding, he rode the hair off a horse the other day to try and win a nose photo for 5th, you would think if anyone has horses who are "Getting tired" in the final 16th its a guy who rides bad horses for the most part and yet, the guy never stops hustling. Same with Iggy Puglisi, that guy isnt riding California Chrome, but he finds ways to ride these horses all the way thru the line, all the time.

So, i don't really buy the "he was tired and the guy was protecting him" stuff because if jocks were concerned about protecting, there would be more jocks who stop riding late.

This horse that Espinosa rode, could have easily gotten 5th money, i can't imagine that the owners were happy losing out on a 1400 dollar check, but maybe they were and didnt care, maybe money grows on trees and some people have so much of it they can just leave a grand or more lying on the lunch room table.

[thespaah]

No. the horse who finished 5th wasnt "done" he was gaining ground, running well and didnt appear "exhausted".

If your comments are true, you would see an equal amount of jocks "protecting" tired horses, but its the same few "usual suspects", some jocks never stop riding...felipe Martinez, who gets bad horses and relatively few mounts never stops riding, he rode the hair off a horse the other day to try and win a nose photo for 5th, you would think if anyone has horses who are "Getting tired" in the final 16th its a guy who rides bad horses for the most part and yet, the guy never stops hustling. Same with Iggy Puglisi, that guy isnt riding California Chrome, but he finds ways to ride these horses all the way thru the line, all the time.

So, i don't really buy the "he was tired and the guy was protecting him" stuff because if jocks were concerned about protecting, there would be more jocks who stop riding late.

This horse that Espinosa rode, could have easily gotten 5th money, i can't imagine that the owners were happy losing out on a 1400 dollar check, but maybe they were and didnt care, maybe money grows on trees and some people have so much of it they can just leave a grand or more lying on the lunch room table.
Ok...Question. Does the jock get a larger check for finishing 5th as opposed to 6th or worse?
If the answer is yes, then where is the incentive to as you say, stop riding?

[Stillriledup]

Ok...Question. Does the jock get a larger check for finishing 5th as opposed to 6th or worse?
If the answer is yes, then where is the incentive to as you say, stop riding?

I was under the assumption that the jock gets a percentage of what the owner gets, and if that's true, i don't know what incentive he would have to stop riding other than he doesnt need the money. Thats normally why people "leave money on the table" because they don't need it....not sure what else it could be.

[thespaah]

I was under the assumption that the jock gets a percentage of what the owner gets, and if that's true, i don't know what incentive he would have to stop riding other than he doesnt need the money. Thats normally why people "leave money on the table" because they don't need it....not sure what else it could be.
Unless one has the wealth of Bill Gates, everyone needs the money.

[Stillriledup]

Unless one has the wealth of Bill Gates, everyone needs the money.

I agree with you, but not everyone is as smart as we are. :D

[Tom]

I was under the assumption that the jock gets a percentage of what the owner gets, and if that's true, i don't know what incentive he would have to stop riding other than he doesnt need the money. Thats normally why people "leave money on the table" because they don't need it....not sure what else it could be.

They might be told to do it, they might just not be very good riders and are afraid to lose by going out early. The whole thing theses days is win every race and to lose is unacceptable. Trainers are afraid to enter their horses more than twice a year, jocks are afraid to push their horses. I thing a lot of it is the rider is not very talented and thinks grabbing will save his horse from getting used in a duel. The brains in this game are in the horses's heads. If i owned a horse saw a rider grab out of the gate, I would be grabbing his neck when he came back.

[v j stauffer]

Ok...Question. Does the jock get a larger check for finishing 5th as opposed to 6th or worse?
If the answer is yes, then where is the incentive to as you say, stop riding?

1632. Jockey's Riding Fee.


(a) Winning jockey riding fees in the absence of a contract or special agreement are: GROSS PURSE

Winning Mount

$100,000 and up: . . . .

10% of Win Purse

50,000-99,999: . . . .

10% of Win Purse

25,000-49,999: . . . .

10% of Win Purse

15,000-24,999: . . . .

10% of Win Purse

10,000-14,999: . . . .

10% of Win Purse

5,000-9,999: . . . .

10% of Win Purse

3,500-4,999: . . . . .

10% of Win Purse

2,000-3,499: . . . . .

10% of Win Purse

1,500-1,999: . . . . .

10% of Win Purse


(1) The purpose of subsection (a) is not to set a minimum or maximum fee. It provides a fee if the parties have not made a written agreement to the contrary.


(2) All fees pursuant to subsection (a) are payable in the lower purse range until the next higher purse range is reached, unless there is a written agreement to the contrary.


(b) Non-winning jockey riding fees are: GROSS PURSE

2nd Mount

3rd Mount

Losing Mount

$100,000 and up: . . . .

5% of Place Purse, plus $10.00

5% of Show Purse, plus $10.00

$135.00

50,000-99,999: . . . .

5% of Place Purse, plus $10.00

5% of Show Purse, plus $10.00

110.00

25,000-49,999: . . . .

5% of Place Purse, plus $10.00

5% of Show Purse, plus $10.00

95.00

15,000-24,999: . . . .

5% of Place Purse, plus $10.00

5% of Show Purse, plus $10.00

85.00

10,000-14,999: . . . .

5% of Place Purse, plus $10.00

5% of Show Purse, plus $10.00

80.00

5,000-9,999:

$90.00

$77.00

75.00

3,500-4,999: . . . . .

80.00

70.00

65.00

2,000-3,499: . . . . .

70.00

65.00

63.00

1,500-1,999: . . . . .

60.00

58.00

58.00



1) The purpose of subsection (b) is to set a minimum, but not a maximum riding fee. No non-winning jockey shall be paid less than the riding fee set forth in subsection (b).


(2) All fees pursuant to subsection (b) are payable in the lower purse range until the next higher purse range is reached unless there is a written agreement to the contrary. However, no such written agreement shall reduce the minimum required by subsection (b).


(c) A jockey's fee is considered earned when the jockey is weighed out by the clerk of scales. The fee shall not be considered earned if the jockey elects to take himself off of his mount. If there is a substitution of jockeys, no additional jockey fee or double jockey fee need be paid except when ordered by the stewards.


(d) In this rule "Win Purse" means the amount paid the winning horse less the fees paid by the owner to enter the horse in the race.


(e) If the parties agree on the fee to be paid the jockey, a contract or agreement in writing signed by the jockey or his agent and the owner or his authorized agent specifying the agreed upon fee if a winning mount, second place mount, third place mount and losing mount shall be delivered to the paymaster of purses before the running of the race in question. The paymaster of purses shall debit the owner's purse account under the contract or written agreement. If no contract or written agreement is submitted before the running of the race in question, the paymaster of purses shall debit the owner's purse account under the fee scale set forth in this rule.


(f) A jockey may not share in the fees of another jockey.

[Robert Goren]

There seems to be a lot of posters who think a jockey can get a few extra feet of effort from a dead tired horse. I am not sure that is true. They can put a show by whipping the horse mercilessly and that seems to be what some want. But I am not sure you are going to get that few extra feet you want by having the jockey do that. If you want to bitch about bad rides, bitch about four wide trips on the turns and horses trapped on the rail. Those rides cost a lot more places than not whipping a horse in the last few feet of race.

[thespaah]

c) A jockey's fee is considered earned when the jockey is weighed out by the clerk of scales.
Vic.....Being a stickler for details, sometimes driving friends and co workers to the point of distraction, I don't see provision for a spill. That is if a rider has fallen from his mount. If he or she is injured, obviously they do not cross the scale.
Additionally, what is the provision for a vet scratch at the gate for a fractious horse that will not load? Or for a horse that has been injured as a result of acting up while in the gate?
Are riders paid when one of these scenarios occur?

[clocker7]

Not sure that this thread has accomplished anything, other than blowing off steam about a few lost gimmick bets. If a subset of owners and certain serial 5th-place jockeys seem to be content with what's happening, then it will continue, wouldn't you say?

From my vantage point, their agents are doing a whale of a job getting live 4th-place mounts for guys that like to whiz away their owners' paychecks.