Churchill Downs Inc. loses effort to overturn Texas online gambling ban

[thew92]

TwinSpires had been taking bets from Texas residents during the lawsuit, but will stop beginning Wednesday, Churchill spokeswoman Courtney Norris Yopp said in a statement.

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130924/BUSINESS/309240051/Churchill-Downs-Inc-loses-effort-overturn-Texas-online-gambling-ban?gcheck=1

[holmmd]

Well, that sucks.

[Stillriledup]

Its amazing to me this "anti gambling"sentiment around the country, NJ cant even get sports betting, they're fighting tooth and nail against this...and yet, people can freely go and purchase alcohol, to my knowledge, alcohol is legal in all 50 states. I dont remember hearing about a person who was killed by a driver who was driving under the influence of a horse or sports bet.

[olddaddy]

Its amazing to me this "anti gambling"sentiment around the country, NJ cant even get sports betting, they're fighting tooth and nail against this...and yet, people can freely go and purchase alcohol, to my knowledge, alcohol is legal in all 50 states. I dont remember hearing about a person who was killed by a driver who was driving under the influence of a horse or sports bet.

I agree, Gambling and alcohol are not even close in the tragedies that each occur.

I really feel for the texans, I know how I felt here in illinois earlier this year. I have stopped all wagering on any texas track, nothing else I can do.

[Stillriledup]

I agree, Gambling and alcohol are not even close in the tragedies that each occur.

I really feel for the texans, I know how I felt here in illinois earlier this year. I have stopped all wagering on any texas track, nothing else I can do.

And, its amazing how horse racing and state lotteries are kind of 'lumped together'. Does Texas have lotteries? Im assuming they do.

[thaskalos]

It always amazes me when politicians forget that they are "public servants"...and they assume the role of our parents -- by telling us what we can or cannot do with our money.

[Stillriledup]

It always amazes me when politicians forget that they are "public servants"...and they assume the role of our parents -- by telling us what we can or cannot do with our money.

Thank you.

[Robert Goren]

The answer to this problem is to move. It may be a hassle to do so, but it basically boils down to much betting the horses means to you.

[jerry-g]

I wonder, if he were still alive today, how Judge Roy Bean would have
ruled on this. He told a lady, "Aw, the boys just want to have a little
fun is all", in response to a lady trying to get Alcohol banned in Texas.

[TJDave]

It always amazes me when politicians forget that they are "public servants"...and they assume the role of our parents -- by telling us what we can or cannot do with our money.

It must be what the majority of us want, right? ;)

[vince]

Are there any options for Texas residents to wager elsewhere online, I have a twinspire account.

[horses4courses]

Don't mess with Texas

[Striker]

The answer to this problem is to move. It may be a hassle to do so, but it basically boils down to much betting the horses means to you.
That is just a little bit more than a hassle. Especially if you have a job and a family. A much more intelligent thing to do would be to legalize online sports gambling in each state somehow, but that is asking too much of our politicians because of certain entities that line their pockets, who don't ever want to see that legalized.

[horses4courses]

That is just a little bit more than a hassle. Especially if you have a job and a family. A much more intelligent thing to do would be to legalize online sports gambling in each state somehow, but that is asking too much of our politicians because of certain entities that line their pockets, who don't ever want to see that legalized.

Can't disagree there, but...
governing bodies of US sports, both pro and collegiate, would say different.
They need to maintain the purity of their contests.

Gimme a break..... :rolleyes:

[Robert Goren]

That is just a little bit more than a hassle. Especially if you have a job and a family. A much more intelligent thing to do would be to legalize online sports gambling in each state somehow, but that is asking too much of our politicians because of certain entities that line their pockets, who don't ever want to see that legalized. I am not an expert on Texas voting, but I have my doubts that online sports betting could pass a vote of the people in Texas. I know it wouldn't in Nebraska.

[TJDave]

Don't mess with Texas

Smiling and thinking how I came know the county seat of Wise Texas.

[burnsy]

I wonder why i laugh at that "political thread" scene. you know where the "conservatives" and "liberals" duke it out like morons. If both sides had their way you would have no guns, no drinking, no gaming, no birth control but if you get pregnant and have the kid..........you can mooch off the state forever. It all makes perfect sense. Plus, being Burnsy i can go to jail for my, well, other vice. Yet, somehow i have more worldy sense then the clowns that make our decisions....Yup, with all that "freedom" out there we really need the "conservatives" and "liberals"...they are so sensible....17 trillion and counting....but God forbid you lose 100 bucks gambling..........:lol:

[wle]

Michigan will be next....I'd bet on it.

[Track Phantom]

Been playing racing for 30 years and this might be the end for me. I live in Austin (no tracks around). Wow....

Having said that, I may have a work around. PM me if you're in Texas and interested.

[Cholly]

The answer to this problem is to move. It may be a hassle to do so, but it basically boils down to much betting the horses means to you.

"Don't mind me, Mr. Perry...I was just about to leave anyway."

[holmmd]

Been playing racing for 30 years and this might be the end for me. I live in Austin (no tracks around). Wow....

Having said that, I may have a work around. PM me if you're in Texas and interested.

PM sent

[forced89]

I received an email from Twin Spires notifying me of this. One thing they said that I like is that although they will mail me a check for all my money and can't allow me to bet that they will leave my account access open so I can watch races, etc.

[vegasone]

The best thing to do in support of fellow bettors is for out of staters not to bet on Texas tracks also. Lets see how their handle suffers.

[cutchemist42]

The best thing to do in support of fellow bettors is for out of staters not to bet on Texas tracks also. Lets see how their handle suffers.

I would think that would be hurting the wrong people, unless the local tracks also opposed easier access to outside tracks.

[JustRalph]

The best thing to do in support of fellow bettors is for out of staters not to bet on Texas tracks also. Lets see how their handle suffers.

They have shit for handle now.........Texas racing can't get any worse......

[dilanesp]

Gambling regulation has always historically been done at the state level, and I doubt you will ever see a controlling court decision that strikes down the authority of state regulators to regulate online gaming differently than brick and mortar gaming.

[therussmeister]

The best thing to do in support of fellow bettors is for out of staters not to bet on Texas tracks also. Lets see how their handle suffers.
Given how difficult it is to organize an effective gambler boycott, I'd guess their handle might drop by $500/day.

[Cholly]

Felt a little funny it being a Wednesday and not making a bet on anything; but got thru it OK. Cooked up a diversion--drove to Dallas and had lunch with an old friend. Could have swung out to LS and made a bet, but wasn’t even slightly tempted. FT& the horse they rode in on.

[garyscpa]

Attached is the transcript of the decision.

[precocity]

Attached is the transcript of the decision.

everybody knows in north texas that lone star wants slots? the same people that own winstar casino owns lone star. saying that its hard to understand if you don't live in dfw. back in 94 i think thats when everybody drove to louisiana to go gamble on the boats 3 hour drive less to say you should see those casinos now? texas betters built shreveport and bossier city! when lone star open up it was packed then it kind of played out after they hosted the breeders cup. then you had a blow up tent an hours drive from dfw called winstar? wow you should see that place now! texans want casino and slots at lone star park period! and until they do that lone star is just going down the drain. now if texans can stop voting on these cattle ranchers politicians maybe we can get real gambling and internet wagering in texas.

[Irish Boy]

Attached is the transcript of the decision.
That thing reads like a 26 year old clerk did 90% of the work on the thing.

[Irish Boy]

Just to clarify: this is a really sloppy order. I'm not even talking about the ultimate decision. The analysis is pretty facile, and I don't think the actual judge had a much of a hand in writing it.

There's nothing more aggravating as a litigant or an attorney to spend countless hours and late nights working on a case and have it end with the court giving the thing almost no effort whatsoever.

[green80]

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130924/BUSINESS/309240051/Churchill-Downs-Inc-loses-effort-overturn-Texas-online-gambling-ban?gcheck=1

But Texas gladly accepts bets from every other state in the country on their tracks.

Wagers accepted at Texas tracks are sent online to the host
track

[thespaah]

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130924/BUSINESS/309240051/Churchill-Downs-Inc-loses-effort-overturn-Texas-online-gambling-ban?gcheck=1
Texas lawmakers trying to protect Texas tracks...That's all this is....
It's the "Texas Way".

[thespaah]

Its amazing to me this "anti gambling"sentiment around the country, NJ cant even get sports betting, they're fighting tooth and nail against this...and yet, people can freely go and purchase alcohol, to my knowledge, alcohol is legal in all 50 states. I dont remember hearing about a person who was killed by a driver who was driving under the influence of a horse or sports bet.
I can put a finger as to why gambling is illegal or heavily restricted in some states. That's due to the influence that Bible Thumpers have over state politicians. For example, here in NC even though the Cherokees run a very lucrative casino which now has full table games, and the state runs a lottery, the Church people here will not tolerate any more additional wagering or gaming.
Elected officials know this and if they want to continue their political careers, they have to make sure the Church people are kept happy.
As far as horse racing, NC especially the Charlotte area is an untapped market for a racetrack. There are more people from the northeast here than native Southerners. It will never happen. The Church people would lose their minds.
This sports wagering thing is a mystery. Anyone with more than two functioning brain cells knows the willingness and the lengths people will go to get in a bet on a sporting event. And this excuse that if there is wagering on sports in the 46 states where the federal government outlawed it, would result in games being fixed is a bunch of horse( fertilizer)..
What is it? The illegal handle on the Super Bowl is like 10 times the legal handle?..

[thespaah]

Are there any options for Texas residents to wager elsewhere online, I have a twinspire account.
You'd have to check with the other US based ADW's.
My thinking is the Texas law applies to all of them..
And it's no longer as simple as using an address in a state where on line betting is legal.
ADW's check your credit using one of the Credit reporting bureaus. That means the ADW gets your last known address, banking info, and other identifying info that pinpoints your residence. Also I believe ADW's track the IP Addresses of their users to make sure they are not betting from an illegal location.
That second point is speculation on my part.

[precocity]

Texas lawmakers trying to protect Texas tracks...That's all this is....
It's the "Texas Way".
mark my words texas tracks are going down the drain! hell I rather bet will rogers down? than a texas track. change is a coming!!!! TS SHOULD BAN ALL ONLINE WAGERING ON TEXAS TRACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Track Phantom]

I can put a finger as to why gambling is illegal or heavily restricted in some states. That's due to the influence that Bible Thumpers have over state politicians. For example, here in NC even though the Cherokees run a very lucrative casino which now has full table games, and the state runs a lottery, the Church people here will not tolerate any more additional wagering or gaming.
Elected officials know this and if they want to continue their political careers, they have to make sure the Church people are kept happy.
As far as horse racing, NC especially the Charlotte area is an untapped market for a racetrack. There are more people from the northeast here than native Southerners. It will never happen. The Church people would lose their minds.
This sports wagering thing is a mystery. Anyone with more than two functioning brain cells knows the willingness and the lengths people will go to get in a bet on a sporting event. And this excuse that if there is wagering on sports in the 46 states where the federal government outlawed it, would result in games being fixed is a bunch of horse( fertilizer)..
What is it? The illegal handle on the Super Bowl is like 10 times the legal handle?..

I used to think this was true but not anymore. I actually think the politicians are using the "bible thumpers" as a moralistic way to perpetuate a different agenda. I do not believe for one moment that these religious zealots carry any weight at all with these politicians except where it is convenient to put them out in the front lines to absorb the arrows for their own "hidden" causes.

[thespaah]

I used to think this was true but not anymore. I actually think the politicians are using the "bible thumpers" as a moralistic way to perpetuate a different agenda. I do not believe for one moment that these religious zealots carry any weight at all with these politicians except where it is convenient to put them out in the front lines to absorb the arrows for their own "hidden" causes.
What is your theory as to the agenda of these politicians?

[Track Phantom]

What is your theory as to the agenda of these politicians?

A bit fuzzy there. I just think someone is getting their bottom line satisfied and the easiest out for the politicians is to throw the bible people in front of it. No proof of that...just conjecture

[Stillriledup]

I can put a finger as to why gambling is illegal or heavily restricted in some states. That's due to the influence that Bible Thumpers have over state politicians. For example, here in NC even though the Cherokees run a very lucrative casino which now has full table games, and the state runs a lottery, the Church people here will not tolerate any more additional wagering or gaming.
Elected officials know this and if they want to continue their political careers, they have to make sure the Church people are kept happy.
As far as horse racing, NC especially the Charlotte area is an untapped market for a racetrack. There are more people from the northeast here than native Southerners. It will never happen. The Church people would lose their minds.
This sports wagering thing is a mystery. Anyone with more than two functioning brain cells knows the willingness and the lengths people will go to get in a bet on a sporting event. And this excuse that if there is wagering on sports in the 46 states where the federal government outlawed it, would result in games being fixed is a bunch of horse( fertilizer)..
What is it? The illegal handle on the Super Bowl is like 10 times the legal handle?..

Good writeup.

The argument that the sports leagues are making against NJ is laughable and its amazing to me how anyone "voted" in favor of the sports leagues. We all know a certain sports league that's completely built on gambling, from top to bottom yet they sit there on their soap box and believe that their league would be just as successful if people werent betting the games or engaging in fantasy sports. Its comical.

[Cholly]

I can do this.

Instead of listening to Andy Serling and Jason Blewitt all day, Chet Baker and Coltrane are on the noise box; no Maggie Wolfendale, but I got Diana Krall—hey, those aren’t the worst swap-outs in the world. OK, so I got the shakes pretty bad. But that don’t mean I’m down with the gamblin jones. No way, man. It’s all that extra coffee I’ve been drinking…yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s just the coffee.

[thespaah]

Good writeup.

The argument that the sports leagues are making against NJ is laughable and its amazing to me how anyone "voted" in favor of the sports leagues. We all know a certain sports league that's completely built on gambling, from top to bottom yet they sit there on their soap box and believe that their league would be just as successful if people werent betting the games or engaging in fantasy sports. Its comical.
But for the the widespread wagering on football, be it pro or college, the tv ratings would not be anywhere near their current levels.
That's a fact.

[ElKabong]

Can't disagree there, but...
governing bodies of US sports, both pro and collegiate, would say different.
They need to maintain the purity of their contests.

Gimme a break..... :rolleyes:

open your eyes, clown (from the movie with Rob Zombie). It's all about the $$$. Who lobbied with the most $$, wins. Every time

The tracks wanted this law
The Baptists wanted this law
The tracks wanted this law
The Cathlicks wanted this law
Did i mention the tracks wanted this law enforced?

Money talks...I walk apparently (and no, I'm not moving to some blue state shithole over this)

[ElKabong]

it should be noted that if the TRC (and tracks in TX) thought this law would bring bettors to the tracks in droves to bet in the simo (OUT OF THEIR HOMES), they'll be sorely disappointed. As i type this I'm in Lone Star's simo pavillion. It's no more populated than a normal friday nite. Less so, to be honest

And the QH meet that's going on has about 20 people on the apron

Awesome decision, TRC :lol:

[precocity]

it should be noted that if the TRC (and tracks in TX) thought this law would bring bettors to the tracks in droves to bet in the simo (OUT OF THEIR HOMES), they'll be sorely disappointed. As i type this I'm in Lone Star's simo pavillion. It's no more populated than a normal friday nite. Less so, to be honest

And the QH meet that's going on has about 20 people on the apron

Awesome decision, TRC :lol:

everybody is at winstar :D

[schweitz]

Just received an e-mail from BetAmerica that they are also suspending Texas accounts.

[johnhannibalsmith]

it should be noted that if the TRC (and tracks in TX) thought this law would bring bettors to the tracks in droves to bet in the simo (OUT OF THEIR HOMES), they'll be sorely disappointed. As i type this I'm in Lone Star's simo pavillion. It's no more populated than a normal friday nite. Less so, to be honest

And the QH meet that's going on has about 20 people on the apron

...

J6_1Pw1xm9U

[levinmpa]

Good writeup.

The argument that the sports leagues are making against NJ is laughable and its amazing to me how anyone "voted" in favor of the sports leagues. We all know a certain sports league that's completely built on gambling, from top to bottom yet they sit there on their soap box and believe that their league would be just as successful if people werent betting the games or engaging in fantasy sports. Its comical.

The Australian Football League(Austrailian Rules Football) played their Grand Final in Melbourne today. I watched some highlights on the afl.com.au website. Ausie Rules Football is a great game, but aside from that, you see advertisements from gambling entities right on the field and on the afl.com.au website as well. It's part of the culture there, and in other right thinking countries. The NFL plays a regular season game in London tomorrow with bookmaker shops across the street from the venue. It's okay for the Brits to wager on the NFL games, but not Americans? What a joke the NFL is when it comes to gambling. If people couldn't gamble illegally on the games, they'd have no ratings whatsoever. I just don't understand their stance on the gambling issue. I hope that someday the individual American states will realize that people will always gamble anyway, so lets regulate and tax it properly.

I got an email from a friend of mine on Wednesday stating that he can no longer wager through Twinspires in Texas. He was really upset and vowed to find a way to place his wagers. He has now opened an offshore account with a bookmaker in Costa Rica. I'm sure he's not alone. Nice job Texas. Send those dollars offshore and don't get a penny of it.

[the little guy]

I can do this.

Instead of listening to Andy Serling and Jason Blewitt all day, Chet Baker and Coltrane are on the noise box;.


A switch any sane person would gladly make.

[iceknight]

Also I believe ADW's track the IP Addresses of their users to make sure they are not betting from an illegal location.
That second point is speculation on my part. They might do that.. or (in case of tvg) they automatically resolve your url to a state based website.
I am in PA and i type www.tvg.com it would ALWAYS resolve to pa.tvg.com and in some browsers it would not load. And when I was visiting Texas for a week a while ago, I tried logging in and I had massive issues trying to access the correct tvg site for me to login.
Xpressbet and Twinspires have large software teams so check this diligently. Others either ask you input your state during log in or just block certain states or certain tracks (for that state).
Highly disjointed system it is.. and that goes for every aspect of the game/sport.

[nearco]

Gambling in USA is such a joke.
Friggin Puritans still going strong 350 years later.

Just let people bet, on anything, for chrissakes. What's the big deal?

[Cholly]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/a-texas-sized-hole-in-the-betting-landscape/

[thespaah]

Just wait for the screaming from the horsemen starts when Texas tracks start threatening to shut their doors.
Racetracks cannot survive when less than 1,000 people per day attend and bet less than $100 per capita.
I must ask the horsemen...Geniuses, from where does the purse money come? The sky?
Ok...I am not laying all of the blame on the horsemen. Obviously the politicians in Texas have other agendas, of which none of those are pro racing/betting.

[burnsy]

Ok...I am not laying all of the blame on the horsemen. Obviously the politicians in Texas have other agendas, of which none of those are pro racing/betting.

I heard the judges written decision was released. Does anyone know where to find it? Supposedly he take shots at all gambling and horse betting making the likes of us horseplayers as second rate, scum, citizens. Sure sounds like this guy makes a great, impartial judge.....:rolleyes: . Sometimes i come across as paranoid and harsh when judging the "system" and our leaders but if i what i heard is true.....no i'm not...i'm spot on. We live in a society where certain people decide whats best for you......the idea of freedom is a thing of the past.......some 80 year old jack ass is going to decide what you can or can not wager on and if he really could have his way....you would be going to jail. I hope my friend was just BSing me but he said it was true. Where can i find it?

[thespaah]

I heard the judges written decision was released. Does anyone know where to find it? Supposedly he take shots at all gambling and horse betting making the likes of us horseplayers as second rate, scum, citizens. Sure sounds like this guy makes a great, impartial judge.....:rolleyes: . Sometimes i come across as paranoid and harsh when judging the "system" and our leaders but if i what i heard is true.....no i'm not...i'm spot on. We live in a society where certain people decide whats best for you......the idea of freedom is a thing of the past.......some 80 year old jack ass is going to decide what you can or can not wager on and if he really could have his way....you would be going to jail. I hope my friend was just BSing me but he said it was true. Where can i find it?
Unfortunately judges which are supposed to be 'referees' allow personal agendas to enter into their rulings.

[thespaah]

Been playing racing for 30 years and this might be the end for me. I live in Austin (no tracks around). Wow....

Having said that, I may have a work around. PM me if you're in Texas and interested.
I just read your post regarding a workaround. Would you be so kind as to PM me this workaround?
I'd be most appreciative.
Thanks!

[NTamm1215]

I heard the judges written decision was released. Does anyone know where to find it? Supposedly he take shots at all gambling and horse betting making the likes of us horseplayers as second rate, scum, citizens. Sure sounds like this guy makes a great, impartial judge.....:rolleyes: . Sometimes i come across as paranoid and harsh when judging the "system" and our leaders but if i what i heard is true.....no i'm not...i'm spot on. We live in a society where certain people decide whats best for you......the idea of freedom is a thing of the past.......some 80 year old jack ass is going to decide what you can or can not wager on and if he really could have his way....you would be going to jail. I hope my friend was just BSing me but he said it was true. Where can i find it?

http://blogs.courier-journal.com/horsebiz/files/2013/09/Texas-federal-court-decision.pdf

[Irish Boy]

I heard the judges written decision was released. Does anyone know where to find it? Supposedly he take shots at all gambling and horse betting making the likes of us horseplayers as second rate, scum, citizens. Sure sounds like this guy makes a great, impartial judge.....:rolleyes: . Sometimes i come across as paranoid and harsh when judging the "system" and our leaders but if i what i heard is true.....no i'm not...i'm spot on. We live in a society where certain people decide whats best for you......the idea of freedom is a thing of the past.......some 80 year old jack ass is going to decide what you can or can not wager on and if he really could have his way....you would be going to jail. I hope my friend was just BSing me but he said it was true. Where can i find it?
It was a sloppy opinion but it does nothing close to what you claim.

[thespaah]

The opinion fails on this one point.
The judge opines that since bettors may go to brick and mortar places to make wagers, CDI is not being injured.
The failure is that while the judge recognizes that wagering done on the internet and betting done at brick and mortar are different in scope and regulatory challenges, he treats them as the same in his ruling.
IMO this ruling is a moral opinion rather than a legal opinion.

[Irish Boy]

The opinion fails on this one point.
The judge opines that since bettors may go to brick and mortar places to make wagers, CDI is not being injured.
The failure is that while the judge recognizes that wagering done on the internet and betting done at brick and mortar are different in scope and regulatory challenges, he treats them as the same in his ruling.
IMO this ruling is a moral opinion rather than a legal opinion.
It fails at a few points. The result might be correct -- I'd love to read the briefing on it -- but many of the most important aspects of the opinion are ipse dixit. As I said above, it has all the hallmarks of a judge letting his clerk do 90% of the work on the draft.