Transparency in American racing.

[Stillriledup]

American bettors need to know if any racehorse had a specific veterinary procedure after his last published past performance line. If a horse is vanned off, they need to be able to find out about the health of that horse with the click of a mouse. If a horse hasnt raced for 6 months or a year, i think the bettors would like to know why. Racing published first time geldings, which is a "procedure" why not publish who had "throat surgery"?

While its nice to know who the trainer is, i'd love to know who the vet is too. If a horse doesnt get a trainer change and then shows improvement, wouldnt you love to know if its first time new vet? Sure you would.

Here's the key. We are betting into these races and betting against people who have this 'secret" information. My competition knows if such and such horse got a vet change, a throat operation or some other kind of procedure and i don't know it, and you probably don't either.

Its time to stop hiding behind the cloak of secrecy, bettors need information to make informed wagering decisions, this isnt a guessing game, horse bettors are pretty serious about their craft, we don't stay up till the wee hours watching replays and crunching numbers for our health. (or to be betting against people who have specific information that we arent privy to)

[Augenj]

I'm with you on this although the fiefdoms will never go along with it unless we get a national overlord with teeth. We're too addicted to the game to boycott until we get one and the fiefdoms know it.

[cj]

I thought this thread was going to be about the 4th place finisher in the PA Derby.

[JohnGalt1]

If a horse was gelded more than 2 days from the current days card, shouldn't it be listed in the pp's somewhere?

I'm sure that when the track announcer mentions it before a race many betters miss it because they're doing something else or at home with the sound down.

And it's really nice to have left a horse out of a horizontal wager that you would have used if you found it out before the third leg into the sequence.

[Tom]

The only way I know you can get this is to look at the last race for each G today and see if if was and H or a C last time. HTR has a PP screen that shows that info for the last 4 races, or the last two. If you have a database, you could set up a report for that and other changes, but the information is not 100%.

[lamboguy]

in Hong Kong every horse gets examined after the race. in their past performances they will print stuff like horse threw his shoe during the race, horse came back full of mucus, horse bled. when you ask trainers in this country what happened to his horse he will tell you its none of your business.

bottom line, Hong Kong does $100 million handle on sunday, Belmont doesn't reach $10 million.

[speed]

in Hong Kong every horse gets examined after the race. in their past performances they will print stuff like horse threw his shoe during the race, horse came back full of mucus, horse bled. when you ask trainers in this country what happened to his horse he will tell you its none of your business.

bottom line, Hong Kong does $100 million handle on sunday, Belmont doesn't reach $10 million.
How many different tracks run in Hong Kong on a Sunday?

[chadk66]

your going to get about as much transparency in the racing industry as your getting from the current administration in the white house:D

[lamboguy]

How many different tracks run in Hong Kong on a Sunday?they only have 1 that runs. not that long ago Hong Kong didn't have a $10 million handle. Hong Kong has a total population of just over 7 million people the population in the United States is something over 300 million. the horses are better in New York than in Hong Kong too.

[TJDave]

Here's the key. We are betting into these races and betting against people who have this 'secret" information. My competition knows if such and such horse got a vet change, a throat operation or some other kind of procedure and i don't know it, and you probably don't either.


If everyone knew everything it would be chalk all day, everyday.

Certain things are worth skulking around for.

[thaskalos]

your going to get about as much transparency in the racing industry as your getting from the current administration in the white house:D

Why is that, though?

Does transparency in horse racing somehow negatively affect our national security?

Why should the horseplayer be kept in the dark about things that he is asked to wager his hard-earned money on?

[maclr11]

For one transparency would kill claiming

[Stillriledup]

For one transparency would kill claiming

Why?

[Stillriledup]

If everyone knew everything it would be chalk all day, everyday.

Certain things are worth skulking around for.

No way that's true because the people who are clueless arent going to use this additional information. You would still get longshots and boxcar prices. Also, even if everyone "knew everything" about vet reports, vet changes and other vet procedure information, they would still have to handicap the races, evaluate each racehorse as an athlete, spend many hours crunching numbers and watching tapes, it wouldnt make everyone a winner overnight just to know which vet is working with which trainer and which horse had a "procedure". You still have to interpret the information.

[Stillriledup]

your going to get about as much transparency in the racing industry as your getting from the current administration in the white house:D

Track owners and racing jurisdictions who permit trainers to "hide" information does absolutely nothing for their bottom line, so why these tracks don't require transparency is anyone's guess. If you owned a business and knew of something that would increase consumer confidence in your product, i would imagine you would do it....especially if its free to do.

Maybe tracks don't realize that betting handle will increase dramatically if they just released more information about their product and put bettors on more of a level playing field with the "insiders"?

[rastajenk]

Maybe tracks don't realize that betting handle will increase dramatically if they just released more information about their product and put bettors on more of a level playing field with the "insiders"?Why? It hasn't happened yet.

[lamboguy]

back in the 70's, Vegas had a bad stigma to it, where people thought (rightfully so) that they were being cheated out of their money by the wiseguys that ran those hotels. eventually there were some big properties that went bankrupt like the Alladin, the Dunes, the Riviera and the Sands. those places along with many others up and down the strip got taken over by large corporations that realized they could make a lot more money by running games that were on the level instead of cheating their customers that they could hustle in the dessert. Vegas got an influx of money and built big beautiful resorts that cost billions to put up. today they have big gamblers coming in from all over the world to take their chances on the tables in Nevada because they trust the games that are offered there.
eventually the same thing will happen in the racing game in North America. next month the Hong Kong signal comes to North America. i know of some large players that have been playing Florida, Kentucky and New York racing start to take up Sha Tin racing because of pool size and transparency. pool size can only come with transparency.

[chadk66]

Why is that, though?

Does transparency in horse racing somehow negatively affect our national security?

Why should the horseplayer be kept in the dark about things that he is asked to wager his hard-earned money on?impossible to police. also, your getting into property owners rights issues. the horses are property of other people and you can make a strong argument that 90% of the things that said owner does with his property have no effect on the betting public. So why should said owner have to divulge to the public the decisions he/she makes with their property. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just pointing out just one of the reasons it'll never happen. I could give you a hundred scenarios.

[chadk66]

Track owners and racing jurisdictions who permit trainers to "hide" information does absolutely nothing for their bottom line, so why these tracks don't require transparency is anyone's guess. If you owned a business and knew of something that would increase consumer confidence in your product, i would imagine you would do it....especially if its free to do.

Maybe tracks don't realize that betting handle will increase dramatically if they just released more information about their product and put bettors on more of a level playing field with the "insiders"?I agree with you to a point. But trainers don't care about consumer confidence. they don't look at their job as instilling consumer confidence. they look at their job as winning races for their owners and that's it. the betting public is probably the furthest thing from their minds.

[chadk66]

back in the 70's, Vegas had a bad stigma to it, where people thought (rightfully so) that they were being cheated out of their money by the wiseguys that ran those hotels. eventually there were some big properties that went bankrupt like the Alladin, the Dunes, the Riviera and the Sands. those places along with many others up and down the strip got taken over by large corporations that realized they could make a lot more money by running games that were on the level instead of cheating their customers that they could hustle in the dessert. Vegas got an influx of money and built big beautiful resorts that cost billions to put up. today they have big gamblers coming in from all over the world to take their chances on the tables in Nevada because they trust the games that are offered there.
eventually the same thing will happen in the racing game in North America. next month the Hong Kong signal comes to North America. i know of some large players that have been playing Florida, Kentucky and New York racing start to take up Sha Tin racing because of pool size and transparency. pool size can only come with transparency.I think you make some valid points and I think you've seen this happening to a degree. Some tracks have really suffered over the years and it may certainly be from some of the reasons you list

[bks]

impossible to police. also, your getting into property owners rights issues. the horses are property of other people and you can make a strong argument that 90% of the things that said owner does with his property have no effect on the betting public. So why should said owner have to divulge to the public the decisions he/she makes with their property. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just pointing out just one of the reasons it'll never happen. I could give you a hundred scenarios.

Because he's offering his property for SALE (in claiming races), and in non-claiming races, he's offering it for investment. When property (like houses) is offered for sale, in many states there must be detailed disclosures of past issues as well as inspections of current conditions. One loses (or ought to lose) certain rights to privacy when property is offered for sale in certain contexts.

Transparency is the true elephant in the room (more than drugs, which are just a part of the larger transparency issue).

[Stillriledup]

impossible to police. also, your getting into property owners rights issues. the horses are property of other people and you can make a strong argument that 90% of the things that said owner does with his property have no effect on the betting public. So why should said owner have to divulge to the public the decisions he/she makes with their property. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just pointing out just one of the reasons it'll never happen. I could give you a hundred scenarios.

But if connections geld a horse, why have they agreed to release THAT information?. How come owners and trainers release gelding info, after all, its their property like you say? How about Lasix. Why do they have to divulge when a horse is getting lasix? How about the name of the trainer....you know, why tell the public who's training the horse...that's the owners personal business, no?


Im asking for information on the vet, who is the current vet of the horse and who was the last vet to treat the animal. I'm asking for throat surgery, that's information similar to new geldings (which is already released to the public) and while i'm at it, i'd like to know the readings on all TCo2 tests, i'd like to know which horses are just barely under the threshold among other things.

[maclr11]

The problem is where do you draw the lines
What about joint injections, and different herebal remedies that may or may not work
It's not just cut and dry
You say throat surgeries are you meaning blocking with sarapin or when you cut the flapper because they are two different things
It's just too messy in my mind

[Stillriledup]

The problem is where do you draw the lines
What about joint injections, and different herebal remedies that may or may not work
It's not just cut and dry
You say throat surgeries are you meaning blocking with sarapin or when you cut the flapper because they are two different things
It's just too messy in my mind

That's for them to decide. They can just put "first time throat surgery" and you, as the handicapper, have to decide what that means to you and your puzzle solving. Its the same as "first time gelding" we don't know how that "ultimate equipment change" is going to affect the horse, you have to ask yourself that when you handicap.

Maybe the horse racing board of that state can have a website set up where you can go on the website, enter the horse's name in the search engine and see that horse's most recent vet visit, you can see what medicines the horse is on, what the vet did to the horse when he was there, etc.

Or, they can just put "throat procedure" and you have to interpret it as best you can. To me its the same as "first time gelding" Both are medical procedures, why is one procedure more important than another procedure?

Listing the name of the attending vet shouldnt be a problem, why is the vet's name a secret? If a pro athlete goes to see Dr James Andrews, they tell you this on telveision, they don't say "so and so went for Tommy John surgery but we can't tell you who performed the surgery"

[maclr11]

I disagree
The sexual anatomy of a horse may be useful for handicapping
But I would assume it would b more for people breeding and the reproduction industry
It's more like why trainers have to list horses that have been bred and are running on the mares in foal list
You wouldn't wanna claim a mare like that without knowing she had been bred
That info was for the other members of the industry
And I do not think it's been proven that first time gelding is such a huge deal size you don't know why it happened or how it affected the horse
I'd like to see contrary reports though if they are out ther

[Stillriledup]

I disagree
The sexual anatomy of a horse may be useful for handicapping
But I would assume it would b more for people breeding and the reproduction industry
It's more like why trainers have to list horses that have been bred and are running on the mares in foal list
You wouldn't wanna claim a mare like that without knowing she had been bred
That info was for the other members of the industry
And I do not think it's been proven that first time gelding is such a huge deal size you don't know why it happened or how it affected the horse
I'd like to see contrary reports though if they are out ther

Its all useful. FT geld is useful, FT throat surgery is useful, knowing the attending vet is useful (especially if its a vet change), knowing the horses and barns who routinely 'just miss' going over the TC02 threshold and i'm sure there are a few other things bettors would love to know, its all useful to someone.

If i PM'd you and told you that i heard thru the grapevine that such and such a horse got throat surgery recently and this is his first race back since the procedure, you certainly would be pretty happy to know that, right?

[chadk66]

Because he's offering his property for SALE (in claiming races), and in non-claiming races, he's offering it for investment. When property (like houses) is offered for sale, in many states there must be detailed disclosures of past issues as well as inspections of current conditions. One loses (or ought to lose) certain rights to privacy when property is offered for sale in certain contexts.

Transparency is the true elephant in the room (more than drugs, which are just a part of the larger transparency issue).you have the option to not buy it. and horses are not real estate. and until they pass laws for protecting prospective horse buyers like they have in real estate it's a moot point. and if/when that happens the industry is done. If you want that protection you go buy in the auction house where they have afforded that protection. it'll never happen at the track.

[chadk66]

But if connections geld a horse, why have they agreed to release THAT information?. How come owners and trainers release gelding info, after all, its their property like you say? How about Lasix. Why do they have to divulge when a horse is getting lasix? How about the name of the trainer....you know, why tell the public who's training the horse...that's the owners personal business, no?


Im asking for information on the vet, who is the current vet of the horse and who was the last vet to treat the animal. I'm asking for throat surgery, that's information similar to new geldings (which is already released to the public) and while i'm at it, i'd like to know the readings on all TCo2 tests, i'd like to know which horses are just barely under the threshold among other things.I'm not saying what your asking for is wrong. I'm just saying it's never going to happen. as far as gelding goes, that is something that you can visibly see in the paddock. I think medication is a completely separate issue because of the performance enhancement beliefs in most of it. Like I said, the industry would collapse, at least the claiming level, if all of this would ever be tried.

[chadk66]

That's for them to decide. They can just put "first time throat surgery" and you, as the handicapper, have to decide what that means to you and your puzzle solving. Its the same as "first time gelding" we don't know how that "ultimate equipment change" is going to affect the horse, you have to ask yourself that when you handicap.

Maybe the horse racing board of that state can have a website set up where you can go on the website, enter the horse's name in the search engine and see that horse's most recent vet visit, you can see what medicines the horse is on, what the vet did to the horse when he was there, etc.

Or, they can just put "throat procedure" and you have to interpret it as best you can. To me its the same as "first time gelding" Both are medical procedures, why is one procedure more important than another procedure?

Listing the name of the attending vet shouldnt be a problem, why is the vet's name a secret? If a pro athlete goes to see Dr James Andrews, they tell you this on telveision, they don't say "so and so went for Tommy John surgery but we can't tell you who performed the surgery"first time running as a gelding would mean absolutely nothing to a handicapper because you don't see the benefits/non-benefits for months. The amount of throat surgeries is pretty small in the overall scheme of things. All of this information you guys are requesting, in reality, would appease so few people it wouldn't be worth it.

[Tom]

It's always wort it.
Let the customer decide what is important.
The problem with racing is that it doesn't recognize who the customer is.
you know what you call a horse player who gets ignored too many times?

A poker player.

[thaskalos]

first time running as a gelding would mean absolutely nothing to a handicapper because you don't see the benefits/non-benefits for months. The amount of throat surgeries is pretty small in the overall scheme of things. All of this information you guys are requesting, in reality, would appease so few people it wouldn't be worth it.

And you know this because you are a handicapper yourself?

[maclr11]

Guys I play both sides of this game
I work for a trainer here and I have my duties as a handicapper
What would it mean to you to say we only have one vet at asd
So what difference would it make to publish such info
You would never want to know some of the things that go on
It would ruin the game
Sore horses running and massive vet bills
If you say o well don't run then
It's not your livelihood and the racing industry dies
I'd say at minimum 3 horses a race get sarapin here
And I don't even wanna beginto talk about shockwave therapy etc.
Geldings prove that is consequential in performance and I will believe you
Most tracks don't publish even tongue time or shadow roll info
Why don't u start with equip issues that can be seen and controlled

[Cannon shell]

The initial post does bring up some valid points. Most jurisdictions are pretty good about announcing 1st time geldings and fining trainers and even scratching horses not reported.

The issue is as someone else brought up is where do you draw the line?
Those that say everything should be available have to understand that it is close to impossible to do. Who would gather the information? Where would it be stored or disseminated? Most importantly who and by what means would insure that the information given was complete and accurate?

The issue with the vets being named is that often more than one vet is used. How far back do you go? If a vet like Allday came in and worked on a horse it might be a few weeks prior to the race. And the accuracy of the information is always going to be an issue. Do you know how many mistakes are made monthly on vet bills because of misspelled names, translation issues and because Doctors seem to not be able to write legibly. It is hard to believe that these same mistakes wouldn't be made because who checks?

Hong Kong has vet info because there are relatively few horses in one highly controlled backside AND the vets work for the track. We can't do things like HK, our setup is just far too different. I'd have no issue with reporting any surgical procedure done to a horse since it's last race. Would be relatively easy to keep track of, is information that could be useful and would help explain layoffs in some cases. You'd need investigators to spot check and have pretty severe penalties for non disclosure. But it could work

[maclr11]

So if I spend the $300 to cut a throat and I win a ton of my races
I have to disclose my winning approach to my competition for fairness
Sounds like communism and aren't you guys trying to get rid of a president that has tendencies like that

[Stillriledup]

The initial post does bring up some valid points. Most jurisdictions are pretty good about announcing 1st time geldings and fining trainers and even scratching horses not reported.

The issue is as someone else brought up is where do you draw the line?
Those that say everything should be available have to understand that it is close to impossible to do. Who would gather the information? Where would it be stored or disseminated? Most importantly who and by what means would insure that the information given was complete and accurate?

The issue with the vets being named is that often more than one vet is used. How far back do you go? If a vet like Allday came in and worked on a horse it might be a few weeks prior to the race. And the accuracy of the information is always going to be an issue. Do you know how many mistakes are made monthly on vet bills because of misspelled names, translation issues and because Doctors seem to not be able to write legibly. It is hard to believe that these same mistakes wouldn't be made because who checks?

Hong Kong has vet info because there are relatively few horses in one highly controlled backside AND the vets work for the track. We can't do things like HK, our setup is just far too different. I'd have no issue with reporting any surgical procedure done to a horse since it's last race. Would be relatively easy to keep track of, is information that could be useful and would help explain layoffs in some cases. You'd need investigators to spot check and have pretty severe penalties for non disclosure. But it could work

I completely understand the line drawing and there are some kinks to iron out for sure, but i do believe that the biggest thing that everyone needs to understand is that the perception is that there is a HUGE gap between the haves and the have nots as far as information goes. As long as you have a game where a small segment of bettors have this "inside" information, the game can only grow so much.

I don't need any vet information or any throat surgeries or anything like that as long as nobody else has it. But, because there are no insider trading laws in racing, i'm betting against people with this info, it puts me behind the 8 ball when i'm giving up knowledge that i'm not allowed to have.

[Cannon shell]

So if I spend the $300 to cut a throat and I win a ton of my races
I have to disclose my winning approach to my competition for fairness
Sounds like communism and aren't you guys trying to get rid of a president that has tendencies like that
"Cutting a throat" is not exactly some state secret nor will it lead you to win a ton of races unless you are also slashing the horses price tag as well

[Cannon shell]

I completely understand the line drawing and there are some kinks to iron out for sure, but i do believe that the biggest thing that everyone needs to understand is that the perception is that there is a HUGE gap between the haves and the have nots as far as information goes. As long as you have a game where a small segment of bettors have this "inside" information, the game can only grow so much.

I don't need any vet information or any throat surgeries or anything like that as long as nobody else has it. But, because there are no insider trading laws in racing, i'm betting against people with this info, it puts me behind the 8 ball when i'm giving up knowledge that i'm not allowed to have.
The mistake in your premise is that "insiders" have some access to some database that pumps out secret information. I have "insider" information on my own horses but rarely know what if any procedures have been done to the rest of the field lining up against my horse in the starting gate.

Most "insiders" lose betting the races, for the most part you are chasing ghosts here.

[rastajenk]

It would just give you another excuse why you lose, and would have zero affect on your wagering experience. I guarantee you, if you looked at pre-race TCO2 readings for some handicapping insight, you'd give it up before a week had passed, because you're a smart guy and would realize that quickly that it has absolutely no value.

I wish some of you who are considered smart guys around here could see that all these efforts and demands and suggestions for greater "transparency" put you in league with the very people who are trying to shut down racing. That's just a thumbnail version of a controversial, contrarian thread-starting post I'm sitting on. Be careful what you wish for. The anti-racing forces are winning the narrative and picking up allies like you who love to point out everything that's wrong almost as much as you claim to love the sport. It's Alinsky-like, in its from-the-inside, subversive way. If you could show me what the product would look like after all these progressive do-gooding changes were enacted, I could show you a dozen common organizational, bureaucratic behaviors that would prevent your vision from happening. I'm just conservative that way, I guess.

[maclr11]

"Cutting a throat" is not exactly some state secret nor will it lead you to win a ton of races unless you are also slashing the horses price tag as well
No but let's say for example I'm working a horse then I tap his feet, then 4 days later I shockwave the horse why does the guy who's
Gonna claim the horse get to know that
I figure out somehow that flucourt seems to work better since I can use a little higher dose or just in general why should a trainer have to release a winning method whatever it may be. Also it would make claiming become such a game of who's sound that it would shut down so much competition

[chadk66]

And you know this because you are a handicapper yourself?no because I trained horses. I know what happens to freshly gelded horses. And it is basically "they just lost their nuts" and that's it. Now check back a few months later:)

[chadk66]

"Cutting a throat" is not exactly some state secret nor will it lead you to win a ton of races unless you are also slashing the horses price tag as wellcorrect. and nobody knows if or when it'll improve a horse. then bettors will be pissed if the horse doesn't improve and they bet on it. it's a vicious cycle.

[the little guy]

no because I trained horses. I know what happens to freshly gelded horses. And it is basically "they just lost their nuts" and that's it. Now check back a few months later

You're suggesting that horses are not individuals, and thus all react in the exact same fashion to physical changes, which is absolutely not the case.

[Valuist]

But trainers don't care about consumer confidence. they don't look at their job as instilling consumer confidence. they look at their job as winning races for their owners and that's it. the betting public is probably the furthest thing from their minds.

And this is one of the big problems in racing. Without the betting public, you guys are out of business. This is a gambling business first, second and third.

[thaskalos]

It would just give you another excuse why you lose, and would have zero affect on your wagering experience. I guarantee you, if you looked at pre-race TCO2 readings for some handicapping insight, you'd give it up before a week had passed, because you're a smart guy and would realize that quickly that it has absolutely no value.

I wish some of you who are considered smart guys around here could see that all these efforts and demands and suggestions for greater "transparency" put you in league with the very people who are trying to shut down racing. That's just a thumbnail version of a controversial, contrarian thread-starting post I'm sitting on. Be careful what you wish for. The anti-racing forces are winning the narrative and picking up allies like you who love to point out everything that's wrong almost as much as you claim to love the sport. It's Alinsky-like, in its from-the-inside, subversive way. If you could show me what the product would look like after all these progressive do-gooding changes were enacted, I could show you a dozen common organizational, bureaucratic behaviors that would prevent your vision from happening. I'm just conservative that way, I guess.

Oh...sorry.

Let's just close our eyes then...and pretend that everything is perfectly fine with the sport. We'll all be singing praises to the sport...even as the trainers brazenly tell us that the "betting public is the furthest thing from their minds". :rolleyes:

[iceknight]

Guys (who are asking for transparency).. you barking up the wrong tree by engaging in debate here.

Here is the perception that the general public have about horse racing:
Most (claiming level) trainers at lower levels = Insider-traders+purse seekers at the expense of a disposable product used for making glue or now burger meat when they no longer win (purses that are augmented by slots + a minimum 16% take out).

Perhaps when the terms "thoroughbred/quarterhorse trainer" is accorded the same amount of reputation as "used car salesman", if it has not already reached that.. then the trainer community will actually care about transparency etc. Until then keep making your $200 bets on inside info. Or they may not care even then.

Good to hear some trainers openly admit: "You would never want to know some of the things that go on " ..... and NOT even one other trainer on this board chastise or correct him.
How different is this from the discussion in off topic about "enablers of various bad acts".. bravo.

[iceknight]

no because I trained horses. I know what happens to freshly gelded horses. And it is basically "they just lost their nuts" and that's it. Now check back a few months later:) my database of bets made on first time geldings and resulting positive returns shows adequate correlation for me to take that as a valid (almost singling) handicapping factor.

[Stillriledup]

The mistake in your premise is that "insiders" have some access to some database that pumps out secret information. I have "insider" information on my own horses but rarely know what if any procedures have been done to the rest of the field lining up against my horse in the starting gate.

Most "insiders" lose betting the races, for the most part you are chasing ghosts here.

I completely understand that if an "insider" has access to information on some vet procedure or even a whisper from a vet that such and such a horse will be "better today" it still doesnt handicap the rest of the field. In any given field, there are usually more than one "tip" given out by owners, trainers, grooms, exercise riders, etc. I get that part of it.

I'm just looking for a MORE level playing field and even if some of the information is "useless" it does create a situation where many fans feel that racing is actually trying to get them as much information as possible and there isnt some "Secret society" that is all knowing.

When you go into a high end restaurant and the kitchen is out in plain view, behind a glass and you can actually see the cooks making the food, that goes a long way with people, its transparent, you can see the "product being made". Racing just needs to become more transparent, even if its just by releasing information that some people feel has no affect on the handicapping process.

I disagree with Chad on the gelding part, i believe that first time gelding is a great angle, especially if its on a horse that i might have specific type of note on and certainly if that horse shows nothing on paper and is a big longshot, i would love to know that he's getting the ultimate equipment change.

Nobody can really tell anyone else what they need or don't need in their handicapping puzzle, everyone is different, i think we just need as much info as we can have and let each person sort it out for themselves.

[Cannon shell]

No but let's say for example I'm working a horse then I tap his feet, then 4 days later I shockwave the horse why does the guy who's
Gonna claim the horse get to know that
I figure out somehow that flucourt seems to work better since I can use a little higher dose or just in general why should a trainer have to release a winning method whatever it may be. Also it would make claiming become such a game of who's sound that it would shut down so much competition
That's life man.

[Cannon shell]

no because I trained horses. I know what happens to freshly gelded horses. And it is basically "they just lost their nuts" and that's it. Now check back a few months later:)
I recently gelded a horse who had a twisted testicle. If you don't think that 1st time gelding isn't a significant item in a case I just don't know what to say.

[Cannon shell]

And this is one of the big problems in racing. Without the betting public, you guys are out of business. This is a gambling business first, second and third.
I don't necessarily agree 100% with what he said but more immediately a trainer is out of business if he doesn't win now. The future threat of racing ending because of bettors bailing out pales in comparison to the threat of not having money to pay your help this weekend.

[Cannon shell]

I completely understand that if an "insider" has access to information on some vet procedure or even a whisper from a vet that such and such a horse will be "better today" it still doesnt handicap the rest of the field. In any given field, there are usually more than one "tip" given out by owners, trainers, grooms, exercise riders, etc. I get that part of it.

I'm just looking for a MORE level playing field and even if some of the information is "useless" it does create a situation where many fans feel that racing is actually trying to get them as much information as possible and there isnt some "Secret society" that is all knowing.

When you go into a high end restaurant and the kitchen is out in plain view, behind a glass and you can actually see the cooks making the food, that goes a long way with people, its transparent, you can see the "product being made". Racing just needs to become more transparent, even if its just by releasing information that some people feel has no affect on the handicapping process.

I disagree with Chad on the gelding part, i believe that first time gelding is a great angle, especially if its on a horse that i might have specific type of note on and certainly if that horse shows nothing on paper and is a big longshot, i would love to know that he's getting the ultimate equipment change.

Nobody can really tell anyone else what they need or don't need in their handicapping puzzle, everyone is different, i think we just need as much info as we can have and let each person sort it out for themselves.
Again what information is pertinent and can it be accurately gathered and disseminated? IMO incorrect info is worse than none.

Until you quantify how this information would help increase and not decrease handle I don't think it will happen. I'm not convinced that it would be much help to be honest. There rarely are smoking guns.

I trained for a guy who was convinced that 5 furlong works were better than 4 furlong works. Rather than argue I simply asked the clocker to record the gallop out time as the official works. Lo and behold we win a few races and the guy thinks it's because we were "working the horses further" when in fact the horses were being trained exactly the same way just being given a work time including the gallop out. His theory was based on bullshit but he would point to the "evidence" and honestly who else would know the difference?

[Stillriledup]

Again what information is pertinent and can it be accurately gathered and disseminated? IMO incorrect info is worse than none.

Until you quantify how this information would help increase and not decrease handle I don't think it will happen. I'm not convinced that it would be much help to be honest. There rarely are smoking guns.

I trained for a guy who was convinced that 5 furlong works were better than 4 furlong works. Rather than argue I simply asked the clocker to record the gallop out time as the official works. Lo and behold we win a few races and the guy thinks it's because we were "working the horses further" when in fact the horses were being trained exactly the same way just being given a work time including the gallop out. His theory was based on bullshit but he would point to the "evidence" and honestly who else would know the difference?

Ok, lets specifically talk about throat surgery and the attending vet. To me, throat surgery can be used as a similar handicapping 'angle' as first time gelding, both are procedures that attempt to help horses in one way or another. One of those is listed in the program, the other is not. Have we determined one is more important than the other? As far as the attending vet goes, i know that some horses have more than one vet, i would suggest that at time of entry, the trainers lists the most recent vet to work on the horse. Would that be an impossible task to list a vet's name along with the entry?

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm interested in reading how SRU integrates the use of cornell collars into his handicapping.

[chadk66]

You're suggesting that horses are not individuals, and thus all react in the exact same fashion to physical changes, which is absolutely not the case.I think if read through all of my posts on this board you will see that I promote horses as being individuals. However, things like gelding a horse doesn't change them immediately. that takes time. usually thirty to sixty days.

[chadk66]

And this is one of the big problems in racing. Without the betting public, you guys are out of business. This is a gambling business first, second and third.If the betting public as a whole cared about these things your argument would have major validity. but the number of hard core gamblers like those on this board are a pretty small number in the overall scope of things.

[chadk66]

Guys (who are asking for transparency).. you barking up the wrong tree by engaging in debate here.

Here is the perception that the general public have about horse racing:
Most (claiming level) trainers at lower levels = Insider-traders+purse seekers at the expense of a disposable product used for making glue or now burger meat when they no longer win (purses that are augmented by slots + a minimum 16% take out).

Perhaps when the terms "thoroughbred/quarterhorse trainer" is accorded the same amount of reputation as "used car salesman", if it has not already reached that.. then the trainer community will actually care about transparency etc. Until then keep making your $200 bets on inside info. Or they may not care even the
Good to hear some trainers openly admit: "You would never want to know some of the things that go on " ..... and NOT even one other trainer on this board chastise or correct him.
How different is this from the discussion in off topic about "enablers of various bad acts".. bravo.I think the trainers on here chose not to chastise because quite frankly most would have a hard time telling which end of the horse eats. so to get into certain details regarding day to day happenings on the backside would be rather silly. Hell, I've had owners that couldn't even pick out their horses in a shed row of twenty head.

[chadk66]

I completely understand that if an "insider" has access to information on some vet procedure or even a whisper from a vet that such and such a horse will be "better today" it still doesnt handicap the rest of the field. In any given field, there are usually more than one "tip" given out by owners, trainers, grooms, exercise riders, etc. I get that part of it.

I'm just looking for a MORE level playing field and even if some of the information is "useless" it does create a situation where many fans feel that racing is actually trying to get them as much information as possible and there isnt some "Secret society" that is all knowing.

When you go into a high end restaurant and the kitchen is out in plain view, behind a glass and you can actually see the cooks making the food, that goes a long way with people, its transparent, you can see the "product being made". Racing just needs to become more transparent, even if its just by releasing information that some people feel has no affect on the handicapping process.

I disagree with Chad on the gelding part, i believe that first time gelding is a great angle, especially if its on a horse that i might have specific type of note on and certainly if that horse shows nothing on paper and is a big longshot, i would love to know that he's getting the ultimate equipment change.

Nobody can really tell anyone else what they need or don't need in their handicapping puzzle, everyone is different, i think we just need as much info as we can have and let each person sort it out for themselves.I don't argue that first time gelding can be of benefit to you but it would have to include dates of the gelding or it's completely trivial. Of course your going to have a decent number of horses win first out after gelding otherwise they wouldn't geld the horse. that's a pretty logical assumption. especially now that you can't use equipoise, etc. But those that geld a horse and run him in two weeks aren't going to see any different results and prior on a measurable scale. thirty to sixty days plus, absolutely. So to just put "first time gelding" in a racing forum without a gelding date would be nothing of value.

[chadk66]

I don't necessarily agree 100% with what he said but more immediately a trainer is out of business if he doesn't win now. The future threat of racing ending because of bettors bailing out pales in comparison to the threat of not having money to pay your help this weekend.that is very true. and a hell of alot more realistic.

[iceknight]

I think the trainers on here chose not to chastise because quite frankly most would have a hard time telling which end of the horse eats. so to get into certain details regarding day to day happenings on the backside would be rather silly. Hell, I've had owners that couldn't even pick out their horses in a shed row of twenty head. That's how some trainers prefer it, don't they? :lol: jk.. as long as the info on buzzers is regularly provided on forms, everyone is going to be happy!

[the little guy]

I think if read through all of my posts on this board you will see that I promote horses as being individuals. However, things like gelding a horse doesn't change them immediately. that takes time. usually thirty to sixty days.


Once again, as Cannon Shell pointed out, specifics matter. Throwing a blanket over the situation, as you are doing, is wrong.

[Mineshaft]

Once again, as Cannon Shell pointed out, specifics matter. Throwing a blanket over the situation, as you are doing, is wrong.





Hes not throwing a blanket over it.

[Mineshaft]

That's life man.




Nope that's not life that's bullshit. Why should every trainer know what the hell im doing? If there worth a crap they should know what to do to a horse physically and mentally to get some run out the horse.

[Mineshaft]

For one transparency would kill claiming





It might end some claiming but knowing that some trainers don't do any vet work I would think those trainers would get some horses claimed from them.

[Cannon shell]

Nope that's not life that's bullshit. Why should every trainer know what the hell im doing? If there worth a crap they should know what to do to a horse physically and mentally to get some run out the horse.
Why do you think they'd care? They aren't claiming your horse because "they know what you are doing" now right? Unless you are doing something illegal I don't see the big deal. I'm sure your vet isn't withholding some secret special vet techniques only for your horses.

[Cannon shell]

It might end some claiming but knowing that some trainers don't do any vet work I would think those trainers would get some horses claimed from them.
And as I said before who checks to make sure this is true? Vet comes to barn and injects ankle, you pay him cash. No record and unless you are under surveillance, no shot of getting caught. Ok now someone might claim that horse believing that the trainer is a rube and the horse hasn't had any work done on it.

This scenario isn't far fetched, it happens already.

[Cannon shell]

Ok, lets specifically talk about throat surgery and the attending vet. To me, throat surgery can be used as a similar handicapping 'angle' as first time gelding, both are procedures that attempt to help horses in one way or another. One of those is listed in the program, the other is not. Have we determined one is more important than the other? As far as the attending vet goes, i know that some horses have more than one vet, i would suggest that at time of entry, the trainers lists the most recent vet to work on the horse. Would that be an impossible task to list a vet's name along with the entry?
Some practices have 4 or 5 vets working for them. Any and all of them may treat the horse. Who gets named?

Throat surgery has many forms. Some almost never work. Some are pretty effective. This information being public would better explain improved performances but are probably more useful in post race than prerace considering how often they don't help

[Mineshaft]

Why do you think they'd care? They aren't claiming your horse because "they know what you are doing" now right? Unless you are doing something illegal I don't see the big deal. I'm sure your vet isn't withholding some secret special vet techniques only for your horses.




Ughhh yes they do care what im doing to my horse. And they do claim my horse if they know what im doing. They want to know how much vet work im doing which makes the decision to claim easier. Do they want to spend a lot of money on vet bills like my trainer is doing? Do they want the headache that the trainer is having with this horse. ABSOLUTELY they care what im doing to my horse.

[Stillriledup]

Ughhh yes they do care what im doing to my horse. And they do claim my horse if they know what im doing. They want to know how much vet work im doing which makes the decision to claim easier. Do they want to spend a lot of money on vet bills like my trainer is doing? Do they want the headache that the trainer is having with this horse. ABSOLUTELY they care what im doing to my horse.

I think that all bets are off the table once the claiming price is known. Whether a vet is doing a ton of work or zero work, the price that the connections put on the horse factors all that into the equasion. If someone sells a house, they put a price on the house and if the house needs fixer up work, that's factored into the price.

[the little guy]

Hes not throwing a blanket over it.

Actually, that's exactly what he is doing.

You not getting it was hardly surprising.

[Cannon shell]

Ughhh yes they do care what im doing to my horse. And they do claim my horse if they know what im doing. They want to know how much vet work im doing which makes the decision to claim easier. Do they want to spend a lot of money on vet bills like my trainer is doing? Do they want the headache that the trainer is having with this horse. ABSOLUTELY they care what im doing to my horse.
There seems to be an awful lot of horses being claimed without this knowledge presently. Hell it could work to your favor if you believe that extra vet work would lead to people not claiming your horse.

[lamboguy]

There seems to be an awful lot of horses being claimed without this knowledge presently. Hell it could work to your favor if you believe that extra vet work would lead to people not claiming your horse.you know damn well the people claiming the horses know whats going on with them. the only ones that are not in the know are the bettors that are betting them.

[Stillriledup]

Ughhh yes they do care what im doing to my horse. And they do claim my horse if they know what im doing. They want to know how much vet work im doing which makes the decision to claim easier. Do they want to spend a lot of money on vet bills like my trainer is doing? Do they want the headache that the trainer is having with this horse. ABSOLUTELY they care what im doing to my horse.

The elite 'claiming trainers' know a lot about what's going on with other people's horses, a lot of these guys know a lot of other people's business, they know which guys do a ton of vet work and which guys don't do any. I believe that most of the people who make claims are claiming based on what they see on paper and video....the part of what you say that's correct is that if you can know for sure what kind of work was done on a particular horse, you're going to love to have that info. I think Cannon Shell is mostly correct when he says there are a lot of claims being made without knowledge of intimate details of what kind of vetwork is being performed.

Word gets around, if you're the type of trainer who throws the kitchen sink at horses or whether you're a cutting corner saving your owner expenses kind of guy, the other claiming trainers are going to know this about you. There arent too many secrets back there, the top claiming guys know a lot of things about other trainers operations that the general public doesnt know about.

[Cannon shell]

you know damn well the people claiming the horses know whats going on with them. the only ones that are not in the know are the bettors that are betting them.
This is fictional bullshit. In 2013 the vast majority of horses are claimed based on sheet numbers, in many cases trainers don't even look at them before the race. The idea that "the people claiming the horses" know what has been going on with them is laughable.

I have one in Saturday night at Penn. Race 8. Tell me "what has been going on with her" and I will give you any purse money she earns.

[lamboguy]

This is fictional bullshit. In 2013 the vast majority of horses are claimed based on sheet numbers, in many cases trainers don't even look at them before the race. The idea that "the people claiming the horses" know what has been going on with them is laughable.

I have one in Saturday night at Penn. Race 8. Tell me "what has been going on with her" and I will give you any purse money she earns.if your horse is training in Penn National, you gave me an easy one to find out about. you give me the name of your horse and i will tell you exactly what's wrong with it.

[Cannon shell]

if your horse is training in Penn National, you gave me an easy one to find out about. you give me the name of your horse and i will tell you exactly what's wrong with it.
Spend $5000 and find out first hand.

You cant figure out the name of the horse when I gave you the track and race number yet you can find out what wrong with it?

[Stillriledup]

This is fictional bullshit. In 2013 the vast majority of horses are claimed based on sheet numbers, in many cases trainers don't even look at them before the race. The idea that "the people claiming the horses" know what has been going on with them is laughable.

I have one in Saturday night at Penn. Race 8. Tell me "what has been going on with her" and I will give you any purse money she earns.

I have to side with Lambo on this one. I have a buddy who has a partnership and he has horses with a top claiming trainer in the country and when he claimed his most recent horse, he liked the horse off of replays and just from following the horse's career, and he told his trainer he wanted to claim that horse and the trainer said "give me a little bit, i'll make a call" he found out exactly what they needed to know about the horse.

not every trainer knows everyone's "business' but if you employ a guy who's a claiming type of trianer, a lot of the ones who make the most claims know the inside scoop.

[Mineshaft]

Actually, that's exactly what he is doing.

You not getting it was hardly surprising.





thanks for the kind words little guy...

[Cannon shell]

I have to side with Lambo on this one. I have a buddy who has a partnership and he has horses with a top claiming trainer in the country and when he claimed his most recent horse, he liked the horse off of replays and just from following the horse's career, and he told his trainer he wanted to claim that horse and the trainer said "give me a little bit, i'll make a call" he found out exactly what they needed to know about the horse.

not every trainer knows everyone's "business' but if you employ a guy who's a claiming type of trianer, a lot of the ones who make the most claims know the inside scoop.
Yeah his trainer looked at the form/sheets and the horse looked good. Are people really that gullible?

And if the horse comes back bad the trainer tells him "oh he must have stepped in a hole or took a bad step".

[Stillriledup]

Yeah his trainer looked at the form/sheets and the horse looked good. Are people really that gullible?

And if the horse comes back bad the trainer tells him "oh he must have stepped in a hole or took a bad step".

Cmon, do you really think that top claiming trainers are just guessing when they make claims?

[lamboguy]

Spend $5000 and find out first hand.

You cant figure out the name of the horse when I gave you the track and race number yet you can find out what wrong with it?
i am only guessing that you must have the most likely winner in the race, LYTES ANGEL. i can tell you that horse had knee surgery and still has chips in the mare's knee's. i wish you and your horse the best in that race.

[Cannon shell]

Cmon, do you really think that top claiming trainers are just guessing when they make claims?

No one makes more bad claims that "top claiming trainers". You know why? Because they have a to of money behind them and can take a shot. If it doesn't work out they just dump them.

The real problem with the juice guys is that they can run horses below what they are worth because people are afraid of claiming off of them. That is what makes the playing field so unlevel and leads to a bunch of short field, short priced horses. Not because they make great, insider informed claims every time.

[Cannon shell]

i am only guessing that you must have the most likely winner in the race, LYTES ANGEL. i can tell you that horse had knee surgery and still has chips in the mare's knee's. i wish you and your horse the best in that race.
She has no chips. Claim her and see.

[Mineshaft]

Cmon, do you really think that top claiming trainers are just guessing when they make claims?




Yes I think some are. Some know what they are doing some dont have a freakin clue.

[lamboguy]

She has no chips. Claim her and see.i have been at this for over 30 years, if i claimed your horse that has the chips, it would be my very first one. and i know that horse has chips in it.

[Stillriledup]

No one makes more bad claims that "top claiming trainers". You know why? Because they have a to of money behind them and can take a shot. If it doesn't work out they just dump them.

The real problem with the juice guys is that they can run horses below what they are worth because people are afraid of claiming off of them. That is what makes the playing field so unlevel and leads to a bunch of short field, short priced horses. Not because they make great, insider informed claims every time.

True, when you make a ton of claims, like Jacobson is making for Drawing Away stable, you are going to get plenty of misses, no doubt.

[Cannon shell]

i have been at this for over 30 years, if i claimed your horse that has the chips, it would be my very first one. and i know that horse has chips in it.
I made the story up.

There isn't a person at Penn National that has ever seen an xray of a chip in that filly. Anyone who says they did is lying. She doesn't train there.

[lamboguy]

I made the story up.

There isn't a person at Penn National that has ever seen an xray of a chip in that filly. Anyone who says they did is lying. She doesn't train there.first of all that horse is a mare. i have never claimed a horse ever in my life, that is why i have the information on that horse. i can just about tell you about every horse in that race if i had to.

i just brought it up because i am sitting about 600 miles away from Penn National, i haven't been to that track in 20 years. if i know what is wrong with that mare, you can bet that there are plenty other's that know as well.

[Cannon shell]

first of all that horse is a mare. i have never claimed a horse ever in my life, that is why i have the information on that horse. i can just about tell you about every horse in that race if i had to.

i just brought it up because i am sitting about 600 miles away from Penn National, i haven't been to that track in 20 years. if i know what is wrong with that mare, you can bet that there are plenty other's that know as well.
Which is all well and good except the chips thing is a story I made up to explain why we were dropping her. Seems to have worked.

[Stillriledup]

Which is all well and good except the chips thing is a story I made up to explain why we were dropping her. Seems to have worked.

Chips or no chips, horses are worth exactly what the connections say they're worth by placing a claiming price on their heads.

[chadk66]

Once again, as Cannon Shell pointed out, specifics matter. Throwing a blanket over the situation, as you are doing, is wrong.I'm not throwing a blanket over anything. I'm giving you the reality of the situation. You can do with that info however you see fit.

[chadk66]

I have to side with Lambo on this one. I have a buddy who has a partnership and he has horses with a top claiming trainer in the country and when he claimed his most recent horse, he liked the horse off of replays and just from following the horse's career, and he told his trainer he wanted to claim that horse and the trainer said "give me a little bit, i'll make a call" he found out exactly what they needed to know about the horse.

not every trainer knows everyone's "business' but if you employ a guy who's a claiming type of trianer, a lot of the ones who make the most claims know the inside scoop.In certain situations you can certainly find out alot of stuff on a horse you want to claim. In some cases you can't.

[lamboguy]

Which is all well and good except the chips thing is a story I made up to explain why we were dropping her. Seems to have worked.
hopefully she runs as good as she did the last time and you win again

[Cannon shell]

Chips or no chips, horses are worth exactly what the connections say they're worth by placing a claiming price on their heads.
Very true. She's worth what someone is willing to pay for her.

However sometimes you get a pass like we did last time and get another shot at a 13k purse at 3/2 ML. Putting the 7 pound out of town bug probably help cloud things but who knew that he worked weekends for me at the farm before he was old enough to work on the track and has been on the mare a hundred times. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that lambo said that everyone claiming a horse knows what is going on with them and based on 3rd hand info believes he has the scoop on my horse. I'm telling you that he can't possibly know since she lives and trains in my backyard and any info on her came from me and may or may not be accurate. Would you be willing to bet 5k his info is correct? What if it was 50k? Or not chips but a bowed tendon or bad throat?

[Cannon shell]

hopefully she runs as good as she did the last time and you win again
Thank you. I don't that she ran all that well last time but just caught a putrid bunch and won because she is just better.

[Stillriledup]

Very true. She's worth what someone is willing to pay for her.

However sometimes you get a pass like we did last time and get another shot at a 13k purse at 3/2 ML. Putting the 7 pound out of town bug probably help cloud things but who knew that he worked weekends for me at the farm before he was old enough to work on the track and has been on the mare a hundred times. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that lambo said that everyone claiming a horse knows what is going on with them and based on 3rd hand info believes he has the scoop on my horse. I'm telling you that he can't possibly know since she lives and trains in my backyard and any info on her came from me and may or may not be accurate. Would you be willing to bet 5k his info is correct? What if it was 50k? Or not chips but a bowed tendon or bad throat?

The money i bet is mostly done on what i see on tape. The other "Stuff" is just things that may or may not sway me off the video, but most times, most of my wagers are based around replays. I don't think Lambo meant every situation can be sniffed out, that's obviously not the case and i'm pretty sure he didnt mean to say that if he did say it, but there are situations where you can know stuff that the connections don't want you to know, its not a closed society if you are "inside" the game like some of the top claiming trainers are.

Some of the better trainers and smaller barns would have a better shot at hiding stuff, the bigger barns with a lot of grooms and hotwalkers and whatnut, im sure it would be harder to keep information from getting into the wrong hands.

To me, the claiming game is basically a numbers game, you're going to make some bad claims if you are active in the claiming game, but you're going for the homerun claim, and you're going to have to make at least several claims in order to hit the jackpot.

I remember going back many years ago i had a close friend who was interested in claiming a horse and said to me that if i saw something worth claiming, he would be interested to hear about. But, you know, people just SAY that and they really arent interested in claiming something that some other people tell them because they dont want to end up having to give out the credit, but i picked out a horse i thought was a good claim and my buddy said "let me ask my trainer what he thinks of the horse" and it came back that the trainer said "you dont want that horse, he's got such and such of a problem". I told my buddy that if you like a horse you gotta claim him because that stuff could be a "curveball". Four or 5 years later, this horse with the problem was still whacking out money, had made a few hundred grand and was in a high level claimer when he was originally available for like 25 or 30k. Of course, i needled my friend endlessly everytime that horse ran. :D

[the little guy]

I'm not throwing a blanket over anything. I'm giving you the reality of the situation. You can do with that info however you see fit.

No, you are suggesting that all situations are essentially the same, and that is simply not true.

[lamboguy]

Very true. She's worth what someone is willing to pay for her.

However sometimes you get a pass like we did last time and get another shot at a 13k purse at 3/2 ML. Putting the 7 pound out of town bug probably help cloud things but who knew that he worked weekends for me at the farm before he was old enough to work on the track and has been on the mare a hundred times. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that lambo said that everyone claiming a horse knows what is going on with them and based on 3rd hand info believes he has the scoop on my horse. I'm telling you that he can't possibly know since she lives and trains in my backyard and any info on her came from me and may or may not be accurate. Would you be willing to bet 5k his info is correct? What if it was 50k? Or not chips but a bowed tendon or bad throat?how about we bet that your horse had a knee operation? i can't afford $5000, but i would be more than willing to bet $200 that i am correct on that.

[Cannon shell]

how about we bet that your horse had a knee operation? i can't afford $5000, but i would be more than willing to bet $200 that i am correct on that.
She had a knee operation a year 1 1/2 ago. That info was on facebook, not exactly a secret.

[Mineshaft]

Chips or no chips, horses are worth exactly what the connections say they're worth by placing a claiming price on their heads.





That's incorrect. Just because a horse is in for 5K doesn't mean the connections think its worth 5K. They might be trying to get the horse eligible for starters and the horse is really worth 12.5K.

[Stillriledup]

That's incorrect. Just because a horse is in for 5K doesn't mean the connections think its worth 5K. They might be trying to get the horse eligible for starters and the horse is really worth 12.5K.

So you think we should have less transparency in the game, so owners can classify horses in wrong spots? These people are lucky i'm not in charge.

[Mineshaft]

So you think we should have less transparency in the game, so owners can classify horses in wrong spots? These people are lucky i'm not in charge.



Never said that. All I said is that some horses are not worth what the connections put them in for.

[Cannon shell]

That's incorrect. Just because a horse is in for 5K doesn't mean the connections think its worth 5K. They might be trying to get the horse eligible for starters and the horse is really worth 12.5K.
Most probably worth less since majority aren't claimed for that price

[Cannon shell]

So you think we should have less transparency in the game, so owners can classify horses in wrong spots? These people are lucky i'm not in charge.

I don't follow what isn't transparent here?

[Mineshaft]

Most probably worth less since majority aren't claimed for that price




That's true and I know numerous connections who think there horse is worth 10K and is in for 10K but should be in for 5K. That's called running a horse over its head.

[Cannon shell]

That's true and I know numerous connections who think there horse is worth 10K and is in for 10K but should be in for 5K. That's called running a horse over its head.
A very smart trainer once told me that if you are running for a tag and aren't at least a little concerned you might get claimed, you put your horse in too high.

I'm always amazed how pissed off some people get when their horse gets claimed. Like its a personal insult or something. Most of the time they are doing you a favor. I suppose if Lava man got claimed off of me I'd be a little bitter but those are rare.

[Pensacola Pete]

I know a little about Hong Kong racing. They have two tracks: Shatin (or Sha Tin), which has dirt and turf courses and a 1200m (6 furlong) straight course, and Happy Valley, which only has a turf course.

Hong Kong racing runs on a grading system, a little like the greyhounds. A horse gets points added or subtracted based on how it performed. It keeps the fields as evenly matched as possible.

Transparency is the way of business. Hide something and get penalized for it. Don't try with your horse and get penalized. Penalties aren't hand slaps either.

Also....a Hong Kong dollar is worth about an eighth of a U.S. dollar, so $100 million there is like about $12-13 million here.

[Cannon shell]

I know a little about Hong Kong racing. They have two tracks: Shatin (or Sha Tin), which has dirt and turf courses and a 1200m (6 furlong) straight course, and Happy Valley, which only has a turf course.

Hong Kong racing runs on a grading system, a little like the greyhounds. A horse gets points added or subtracted based on how it performed. It keeps the fields as evenly matched as possible.

Transparency is the way of business. Hide something and get penalized for it. Don't try with your horse and get penalized. Penalties aren't hand slaps either.

Also....a Hong Kong dollar is worth about an eighth of a U.S. dollar, so $100 million there is like about $12-13 million here.

Everybody works for the Jockey Club there which means they have far more control of things. The trainers, jockeys, grooms, vets all are employed by the HK Jockey Club. Owners pay into accounts and are only allowed to have I think 4 horses at a time. Horses are all imported and must have Int'l rating of 95 (similar to timeform) and be 4 or younger except for the designated Int'l races.

[chadk66]

No, you are suggesting that all situations are essentially the same, and that is simply not true.you are totally misunderstanding what I'm telling you.

[lamboguy]

I know a little about Hong Kong racing. They have two tracks: Shatin (or Sha Tin), which has dirt and turf courses and a 1200m (6 furlong) straight course, and Happy Valley, which only has a turf course.

Hong Kong racing runs on a grading system, a little like the greyhounds. A horse gets points added or subtracted based on how it performed. It keeps the fields as evenly matched as possible.

Transparency is the way of business. Hide something and get penalized for it. Don't try with your horse and get penalized. Penalties aren't hand slaps either.

Also....a Hong Kong dollar is worth about an eighth of a U.S. dollar, so $100 million there is like about $12-13 million here.they are doing in the vicinity of $100 million a day US, but your conversion numbers are correct and the rest of your statement is spot on.

they had some type of a bet where you pick 2 trifecta's in a row and it paid $800,000 for $1 the other day. there are a lot of high jackpot payoffs in their 2 tracks. their pools are being policed to the gills too. if someone gets caught altering a pool there would be huge penalty's if they somehow got by all the safeguards.

Next month when Hong Kong racing finally makes it here, there will be plenty of North American horse players that are going to rearrange their sleeping schedules in order to be up for Shatin.

[the little guy]

you are totally misunderstanding what I'm telling you.


You're not " telling me " anything. I also didn't misunderstand you....I just know you are wrong.

[Mineshaft]

You're not " telling me " anything. I also didn't misunderstand you....I just know you are wrong.



Your so easy to dislike little guy

[chadk66]

You're not " telling me " anything. I also didn't misunderstand you....I just know you are wrong.alrighty then:D

[onefast99]

A very smart trainer once told me that if you are running for a tag and aren't at least a little concerned you might get claimed, you put your horse in too high.

I'm always amazed how pissed off some people get when their horse gets claimed. Like its a personal insult or something. Most of the time they are doing you a favor. I suppose if Lava man got claimed off of me I'd be a little bitter but those are rare.
There are many Lava Man stories out there it just so happens to be his was the claim of the century.
The claiming game is not for the faint of heart by any stretch. Some owners may not want to spend money on a certain horse or give them the needed time off, they aren't machines, the next trainer goes the extra mile and gets the horse that much needed attention changes his work habits treats him with respect and all of a sudden you go up the ladder. Like in MLB some players play better when they are traded to another team a change of scenery or a less "competitive" venue. A lot of this is the psychological effect, an area many have no idea how to navigate through.

[onefast99]

Because he's offering his property for SALE (in claiming races), and in non-claiming races, he's offering it for investment. When property (like houses) is offered for sale, in many states there must be detailed disclosures of past issues as well as inspections of current conditions. One loses (or ought to lose) certain rights to privacy when property is offered for sale in certain contexts.

Transparency is the true elephant in the room (more than drugs, which are just a part of the larger transparency issue).
How many people have bought homes after an inspection was performed by a certified home inspector and after three weeks in the garage door opener stopped working or the roof began to leak, go look at the disclaimer those inspectors have on their report or their limits of liability is the cost of the inspection. It's called "buyer beware" its been around for quite a while.

[chadk66]

How many people have bought homes after an inspection was performed by a certified home inspector and after three weeks in the garage door opener stopped working or the roof began to leak, go look at the disclaimer those inspectors have on their report or their limits of liability is the cost of the inspection. It's called "buyer beware" its been around for quite a while.this is very true. same is true for the used car market. that thirty day warranty isn't worth a crap come day 31

[PaceAdvantage]

Your so easy to dislike little guyThis was a very constructive comment. Can we always count on you to "go personal" whenever you can't argue with civility?